Racism on babble?

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N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture
Racism on babble?

OK, maybe I'm just ranting.

But it sure seems to me that there's far too much "enthusiasm" for attacks on "non whites" on babble. If it's not China, then it's some African who was involved in an incident onboard an aircraft recently,  or it's something like that. I find this "enthusiasm" repulsive and only thinly veiled racism exercising itself.

 

Maybe it's a mixture of imperial hubris and racism, but it's still unwelcome.

 

Le T Le T's picture

babble is a white supremacist space (please look this term up, it's not all about nazis) that is part of a white supremacist society. the moderators are barely able to keep overt racist remarks out of the "anti-racist" forum. dealing with racism generally is a constant struggle. i, like all white people in canada, am racist and need to constantly be checking my head to see how the things that i say and do (or don't say and don't do) support that racism. the fact that i feel comfortable responding to your OP is part of the priviledge that i receive in a white supremacist, racist society. the way that other babblers listen to my posts (or dont), everything. we are litterally swimming in it so the second that we stop taking it for granted on something as free and chaotic as an online message board means that we have retired from an anti-racist struggle.

G. Muffin

Le T, I'm white (pinky beige, really) and I'm not a racist.  Your hypothesis just fell over.  Show me how I'm racist.

Le T Le T's picture

kind of unclear in how i worded it. the priviledge that comes with being white in a white supremacist society makes someone who is white by default an instrument of racism. i think that being racist is as much about what you don't do as what you do do. i think that you can do or not do something unconsciously too. so i am unconsciously racist purley because of the fact that i am white and raised in a white supremacist society. i even find myself being consciously racist when i, for instance, do not speak out about a family member's racist comments at a christmas party because to do so would bring on a shit load of uncomfort for me - that's the priviledge of choice that also accompanies my whiteness. there are many posts in this forum that can do a much better job at explaining than i can.

so in terms of the OP, because babble is dominated by white people and a product of a white supremacist society we can expect babble to be racist. we need to accept this and look for ways of challenging that, which i think that a lot of people (including the mods) do all the time.

 

Viking77

"the priviledge that comes with being white in a white supremacist society makes someone who is white by default an instrument of racism"

This is probably the worst statement I have ever read. What the h*ll is a "white supremacist society"? you mean Canada?!?!?!?

Is Nigeria a "black supremacist society"???

Why not try living in a non-white society and see what kind of "privilege" it gets you. Get real, bud. Or at least go easier on yourself!Laughing

Or, at least explain to me how generalising about your own race in a negative way is NOT racism!

Le T Le T's picture

Welcome to rabble, you should try reading something before you post. Just out of interest, how did you stumble across this forum?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Given his posting name, he probably found it while he was cyber-pillaging Gaul or something.

ceti ceti's picture

I think the issue of racism on this board has (at least) two components -- one is the obvious trolling and the other is the sometimes patronizing and sometimes colonial attitude of some Western progressives/social democrats towards the Global South. This attitude lends itself to double standards even while the liberal-left is the West is falling to an even more insidious and racist resurgent right. I came across this recently on a Tar Sands presentation, where the writer quoted without batting an eye the likes of Thomas Friedman, while excoriating any country that even had oil (like Venezuela). Instead, nice Nordic countries were held up as exemplars while the author made lurid comments about dependence on Middle East oil and Russia as part of the problem.

However, rabble is not bad -- there are many here who don't put up with that crap and say so. And believe me, it's worse elsewhere -- just check Huffington Post which puts out a steady drumbeat of propaganda against the Left in Latin America. Indeed, its blogs hardly ever chew out American policies related to imperialism, even while it does attack the administration for other domestic failings.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Er...what?

Le T Le T's picture

looks like another thread on babble racism derailed by white folk. what could that be a symptom of...?

DaveW

 just check Huffington Post which puts out a steady drumbeat of propaganda against the Left in Latin America.

I don't go to the Puffington Host (as some call it), but as a liberal paper I bet it is quite favourable to centre-left leaders like  Lula and Michele Bachelet, but more critical of soft-spoken Leader for Life Hugo Chavez

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hi Viking77, welcome to babble.

Your first post isn't getting you started in the best way. This is a warning to read the babble policy, and maybe read a few threads in the anti-racism forum to get a sense of how racism is understood here on babble.

 

Viking77

Hi Maysie and thanks for the welcome and warning.

I think that irrespective of anyone's 'understanding' of racism, comments policy, or familiarity with a given forum, comments that invite criticism ought to address that criticism. Being part of a group or forum with a shared understanding with a particular term or state of affairs does not insulate one from that criticism. In short, criticism is not invalid just because it comes from a different standpoint.

If you define a term like 'racism' so broadly that it encompasses almost everyone uncritically, don't be surprised when people resist being included!

G. Muffin

Maysie, this is a serious question that I'm hoping you'll answer.  My neighbours are divine.  I have a couple with kids on my floor.  I have a couple without kids (but a glorious cat) on the top floor of the house.  My favourite of all these people also happens to be the only POC in this house.  Except for his kids, of course.  When I moved in to my apartment, I was very, very shaky.  I had just returned from my cousin's death bed.  My husband was trying to ensnare me in bullshit peace bond applications and other legal mumbo jumbo. My parents were suffocating me with their fear and alarm.  

I know, from previous experience, how important neighbours are.  I don't think I am a racist but you tell me why, when I decided to get to know my neighbours, that I purposefully selected the darkest one.  IMHO, it was because the basis of friendship is a shared weakness.  And I understand what it's like to be a black gay man.  I know I sound delusional but I've never made so much sense in my entire life.

Slumberjack

G. Pie wrote:
I don't think I am a racist but you tell me why, when I decided to get to know my neighbours, that I purposefully selected the darkest one.....And I understand what it's like to be a black gay man. 

You've provided your own answers G. Pie.  The simple acknowledgement of never being able to truly understand is a good start imo, along with a personal committment to never permit ourselves to believe it, or to repeat it for that matter, because it diminishes the reality of those that do.

 

yarg

"In short, criticism is not invalid just because it comes from a different standpoint.

If you define a term like 'racism' so broadly that it encompasses almost everyone uncritically, don't be surprised when people resist being included!"

 

You're wasting your time.

G. Muffin

Slumberjack wrote:
G. Pie wrote:
I don't think I am a racist but you tell me why, when I decided to get to know my neighbours, that I purposefully selected the darkest one.....And I understand what it's like to be a black gay man. 

You've provided your own answers G. Pie.  The simple acknowledgement of never being able to truly understand is a good start imo, along with a personal committment to never permit ourselves to believe it, or to repeat it for that matter, because it diminishes the reality of those that do.

I am short of coffee this morning.  Could you tell me "my own answers"?  "Never being able to truly understand" is why we say walk in a man's moccasins for a mile before you judge him.  "Never permit ourselves to believe" what?  Repeat what?  Diminishes whose reality?  I just don't *get* your comment.

G. Muffin

yarg wrote:
If you define a term like 'racism' so broadly that it encompasses almost everyone uncritically, don't be surprised when people resist being included!"

You're wasting your time.

Again, racism is one of those words that mean different things to different people.  When I freaked out that day, I followed the black guy's advice.  Move slowly, keep your hands out of your pockets, stay calm, let them approach you.  I'd hate to think how he came by that information but it worked for me, as demonstrated by the fact that I wasn't Tasered.  

And when two white police officers asked to come into my house (which by then looked like a tornado had ripped through it), I only allowed the female cop in.  Because we share a weakness and that is the basis of friendship.  And when I threw down a large box of matches making a semi-circle around me and then edgily lit a smoke maintaining eye contact the whole time, the female cop said something like "Okay, I'm interpreting that as a threat" and I confirmed that she was right. She negotiated a deal whereby she would feel all my clothes because I had brandished scissors.  I held up my arms over my head.  She felt me up and down (that doesn't sound right but you know what I mean) and together we calmly walked out of the apartment to the squad car.  It was excellent police work on her part.  So excellent that I sent in a compliment via the Vic PD website.  I sure hope they tell her how fantastic she is.  

I had called 911 and then hung up.  Got a message back immediately saying "This is the Victoria City Police.  We've received a 911 one-ring call from your home on [redacted address].  If there is a problem, call us back immediately at 911.  Otherwise, police will be attending."  

I ran over to the neighbours and screamed that the cops were coming, they were after me, it was Charles Manson and the White Album all over again, all in my insomniac and disordered mind.  The neighbour I spoke to was the black guy's wife.  She shared with me that she had been in this state before and that her husband had seen her in this state and what I needed to do was go home open the curtains, leave the door open slightly, and wait for help to arrive.  The whole exercise was a thing of beauty.  Two women (neighbour, cop) and one black man (neighbour).  Who knew I'm not only a racist but a sanist?

G. Muffin

Whatever happened to that freak out thread, anyway?  I can't find it and I'd like to print it out because it's a pretty good demonstration of sleep deprivation psychosis.  Or SDP because you can't take a condition seriously until it has an acronym.  SIP? Sleepless Insomnia Psychosis?  Whatever you call it, it's real.  Tell the Scientologists to go fuck themselves.

remind remind's picture

GMuffin, your sharing is deeply respected by me, thank you.

sandstone

wow...  viking77... thanks for your comments and i am sorry to see how you're attacked for stating them... meanwhile the attacker gets backed up by a moderator... personally i don't get it... when someone asks a very good question, instead of providing an answer he's attacked for asking it.... does that strike the folks at babble as especially tolerant of others???  so i will ask viking77's question again as it's a good one...

"explain to me how generalising about your own race in a negative way is NOT racism?"

G. Muffin

remind wrote:
GMuffin, your sharing is deeply respected by me, thank you.

I love you, Remind.

sandstone

btw, the comment in yargs post is a quote from viking77 "If you define a term like 'racism' so broadly that it encompasses almost everyone uncritically, don't be surprised when people resist being included!"

another excellent comment from viking77, that yarg would like to highlight... thanks yarg, i think it is worth highlighting to those like Le T who would like to paint all ''white'' canucks with the same brush.....

SparkyOne

G. Pie wrote:

Le T, I'm white (pinky beige, really) and I'm not a racist.  Your hypothesis just fell over.  Show me how I'm racist.

 

I thought that whe dogma here.

If someone is white then you're automatically a racist.

lol sorry I find that to funny.  When I hear that it sounds like there is no "cure" for racisim and we must accept racisim cause being white means you can't change.

Bullshit.

I have a lot of white friends and their not racist.  Sorry I just don't buy that anyone who is white is automatically a racist crap.  If you're a self admitted racist Le T an will always be a racist because you're white well I feel sorry for you.

 

Oh you guys and ls crack me up sometimes.

oldgoat

G. Pie, glad you finally get to go home.  You've sure had a hell of a time.  I hope you can cozy up at home and enjoy doing whatever you want.

oldgoat

Quote:
wow...  viking77... thanks for your comments and i am sorry to see how you're attacked for stating them... meanwhile the attacker gets backed up by a moderator... personally i don't get it...

 

I'm not seeing where anyone got attacked. Our Viking friend was disagreed with, and his usage of terms were challenged, but I'm not seeing anything which I would call an attack.

 

We do use a certain fairly evolved model of racism and anti-oppression as our standard here on babble, and I don't fault anyone for not being born knowing it. Maysie once took it on herself to start a "racism 101" thread with lots of good links some time ago which was a good idea, but went awry as I recall. It's probably still a good idea to do something like that and have it as a sticky, so at least we're using a common terminology. In fact I shall raise that issue. I'm not going to work too hard just now finding references, and besides I'm currently on vacation.

 

In a small and admittedly inadequate nutshell, I'd say racism is seen here as systemic and related to power structures which are of and support white western dominant society. As a white person, I am a benificiary of this, and thus a benificiary of white supremist society. This is irregardless of what a good person I may be as an individual, and recognises that our new poster Viking77 may even be a better person. I am occassionally struck at rabble staff meetings what a white and middle class bunch we are, though gender and gender identification diversity is better.  We need to understand that we then have an institutional weakness of only being able to see through our own eyes.

I will admit that when the term racism is used without a proper understanding of context it will encourage a defensive reaction, and defensiveness is never productive.

remind remind's picture

If racism 101, or indeed any ism for that matter, could be distilled down to 1 sentence this could be it...thank you Polunatic2.

 

Quote:
accepting these privileges without acknowledging that they may come at a cost to someone else, is part of internalized racism.

 

However, acknowleging without underlaying action means little.

Polunatic2

Perhaps some distinctions might help this discussion. For example, in general, white people don't have to deal with issues of racial discrimination in housing, employment or even hailing a taxi. That's part of what people refer to as "white privilege". It doesn't matter what your personal views are, or how you conduct your life or perhaps even what other forms of oppression you may be facing based on gender or class for example. This privilege is accorded no matter what, is deeply ingrained and often operates invisibly. I don't think that makes all white people racist or white supremacists but it means that there are privileges associated with being white in this society.  True, those benefit are highly stratified (meaning that some white people benefit more than others).  Privilege can only exists in relation to oppression. 

There is material benefit to being white in North America whether we acknowledge it or not. But benefiting from other people's racist attitudes and behavior, isn't the same thing as "being racist" yourself. However, accepting these privileges without acknowledging that they may come at a cost to someone else, is part of internalized racism. 

No need for people to get so defensive when discussing this or to take it so personally. I agree with Beltov's suggestion that we think carefully about what we're going to say about the news of the day before we click "post comment". 

Viking77

Thanks for the comments, people. I don't mind being attacked or disagreed with as long as it's my actual words that are challenged, not just my right to make the challenge!

Thankyou, too, Polunatic2. You have outlined very clearly and succinctly what the issues are, and don't think that others are unaware of that particular argument.

You admit, "I'd say racism is seen here as systemic and related to power structures which are of and support white western dominant society"

Well, you are in a "white, Western" society. When you are of the same culture, with the same thought-patterns, of the dominant culture then you will do better in that culture. When you go an live in another culture, you will be at a serious disadvantage because of your 'whiteness', which is perhaps better expressed as adherence to Western norms. Having said that, Western culture has demonstrated itself highly open to those from other cultures, many of whom do extremely well within them. I would go as far as to say that Western culture, of which Canada (which I am not from, btw) is a very good example is more open to outsiders than any other culture is. We have that to be proud of.

 

Sure, the advantages you have in society come from what your ancestors have created, fought and died for; that is to create a free country. So, enjoy them, and share them with others, as we largely have done. Don't hang your head in shame over it. Don't "constantly be checking" yourself, in the words of Le T (to whom I apologise for harsh words; they were a balanced expression of my outrage), just in case you might be offending somebody.

Polunatic2, you also say,

"I am occassionally struck at rabble staff meetings what a white and middle class bunch we are, though gender and gender identification diversity is better"

Better? In what way? Does a person's value come solely from their being different? Does someone who initially arrives from another culture and then blends in, cease to be "better"?

Your definition of racism, as championed by Remind above, is also somewhat at variance with that of the Webster-Merriam dictionary which says,

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

I hear what you are saying, but I think that making up new, all-encompassing definitions for the term may be counterproductive and disingenuous.

Polunatic2

Viking - I think you're mixing me up with Oldgoat's comments about "staff meetings", "power structures" and such.

As far your "context" argument goes, I think you need to take colonialism into account in your analysis of other countries and how people of European background might or might not be treated. There are many cases where Europeans have been granted privileged treatment - from very overtly apartheid South Africa to India to Latin America. 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Viking77. You are brand new to this community, and post #4 above is your first post to babble, and this is what you post:

Viking77 wrote:
"the priviledge that comes with being white in a white supremacist society makes someone who is white by default an instrument of racism"

This is probably the worst statement I have ever read. What the h*ll is a "white supremacist society"? you mean Canada?!?!?!?

Yes. Canada is a white supremacist society.

How do I know this? How does Le T know this? We didn't just wake up and think, hm, how can we make babblers ticked off today? We know this because of the bloody murderous history and present of the white European invaders towards the aboriginal people who were living here first. We know this from Canada's history in the slave trade of African slaves, and we know this from past and current racist immigration practices. We know this because all institutions in Canada are run by and for the benefit of white folks, even those who may not directly benefit, as Le T has pointed out, there are always some kinds of benefits, and choosing ignorance is of course a benefit or privilege.

N Beltov. To answer your question. The model of white supremacy, when exported globally, takes the view that all things Western/European/ of the North are better, superior and further evolved.

Which makes the East and the global south as backwards, barbaric and hopelessly behind the times. The same description is used to describe marginalized folks within the global North and West, for example Aboriginal people, poor people of colour, immigrants of colour, etc.

In terms of the specific examples you've given (maybe some links? Could also maybe get this thread a bit back on track. Maybe.) there's always a gleeful excitement when The Other (TM) "proves" to the West/North that they are indeed inferior, needing of "our" guidance, etc. Histories, particularly colonial histories, are simply erased.

Also, what OG said at post #26, except that I'm not white. Wink

Slumberjack

Viking77 wrote:
Well, you are in a "white, Western" society. When you are of the same culture, with the same thought-patterns, of the dominant culture then you will do better in that culture. When you go an live in another culture, you will be at a serious disadvantage because of your 'whiteness', which is perhaps better expressed as adherence to Western norms. Having said that, Western culture has demonstrated itself highly open to those from other cultures, many of whom do extremely well within them. I would go as far as to say that Western culture, of which Canada (which I am not from, btw) is a very good example is more open to outsiders than any other culture is. We have that to be proud of. 

We seem to have made out fairly well here in North America since our arrival, at the expense of everyone else residing here beforehand. Historically as well, whenever we've gone abroad from our European places of origin, our so called disadvantages were generally overcome through violent suppression and subjugation. It continues to be the case today practically everywhere that white imperial domination treads. Sure, we're highly open to imposing ourselves and our culture upon others, just as we're highly open to using violence against others if they do not accept our benevolent and open nature. The only disadvantage I can think of that seems all too apparent...and it just might be peculiar to evolutionary traits resulting from the harshness of the Northern European climate, is skull thickness.

Le T rocks btw.

clersal

 

 

 

Mr Beltoc wrote: But it sure seems to me that there's far too much "enthusiasm" for attacks on "non whites" on babble. If it's not China, then it's some African who was involved in an incident onboard an aircraft recently,  or it's something like that. I find this "enthusiasm" repulsive and only thinly veiled racism exercising itself.

At first I thought Mr Beltov was joking. Then again it might be a means for a new and inventive way to present the news, written or visual.

We don't mention huge riots, thousands killed in China. We mention a country that grows rice and eats a lot of it too.
That a lot of North Americans love this country's cuisine. Then we mention the riots.
As for the black man whose attempt to blow up himself and a plane.
We do the same thing. In fact his colour is unecessary as he was caught in the act.
Imagine the posibilities, endless.
Of course as usual some of the Babblers have started the accustomed accusing each other of racism and those who deny hotly that they are not racist, never have been and never will be.
I think that there is as much enthusiasm when whites are attacked as any other.

Viking77

Maysie, I still don't see why you have a problem with what I asked. But thankyou for your reply. I hasten to point out that

"bloody murderous history" is not confined to any one racial group, and it is in any case just that: history.

If you consider Canada to be a Native American country, upon which some 33 million or so white (and many other) people just happen to live, then your objection makes perfect sense. I hadn't seen it that way.

I was just objecting to the idea that the structure of a certain society, which may make it marginally more difficult for some folks than others to live in it, is racism. Rather, it's just unfortunate. And, secondly, the idea that all members of that society are sort-of "indirect racists" - but still racists - makes no sense, logical or moral.

But it may cheer you to know that I am currently a victim of those 'racist immigration policies' you mention!

Polunatic2, apologies for getting that wrong. my bad.

Maysie Maysie's picture

No Viking77, nothing about systemic oppression cheers me in any way.

Racism doesn't only make life difficult for people. Racism kills people and destroys communities and lives. Just as sexism kills people, classism kills people and homophobia kills people. If you need further examples of this I can provide them, but using google one can find many alternative information sources. As can some of the archived threads in the feminism forum, the anti-racism forum and the Aboriginal issues forum here in babble.

While I understand that for many people, and not just on babble, a discussion such as this is a cute fun wordy exercise in debating skills and practices, the truth is that Canada's racist oppressive history is alive.

And I said bloody murderous history AND PRESENT in Canada.

This is lived and enforced through official governmental and legal policy, governance and lived realities of Aboriginal people in Canada. These realities can be seen if one simply takes the time to observe. Hint: The Winter 2010 Olympics in Vancouver.

yarg

Was it racist when some African tribes eradicated or made slaves of other tribes through their own military or technological might?

There is far too much self loathing on this forum, I am not guilty of opressing anyone, I have certainly profited from the opression of peoples in the past, but so have many other people, white or non white, racism and conquest is not limited to white europeans.

 

sandstone

oldgoat quote "I'm not seeing where anyone got attacked."

Le T quote "Welcome to rabble, you should try reading something before you post. Just out of interest, how did you stumble across this forum?"

i view the comment ''you should try reading something before you post" as a moire personal attack on viking77, and not just his commentary...

Le T quote  "looks like another thread on babble racism derailed by white folk. what could that be a symptom of...?"

i view this as an unfriendly way to communicate that shuts down communication, rather quickly as it is a more general attack on anyone posting that doesn't agree with this particular posters viewpoint.  'derailed by white folk' is an assumption on this posters part who has no idea the race or colour of others posting here fwiw....

oldgoat

Quote:

Also, what OG said at post #26, except that I'm not white. Wink

 

Oh, uh.. right.

 

 

Viking77

Yarg - spot on.

 

Maysie is right, racism kills people. I've seen it. Having helped feed and clothe refugees who were burnt out of their shacks and communities because they were from a 'different' African country, just last year, I can testify that racism, or "xenophobia" is a nasty issue.

Which is why it shouldn't be trivialised. The world is a nasty place - and I'm sure many of your readers have lived in some horrible places. Canada is one of the safest and best countries in the world - for anyone. That's why hundreds of thousands of people are queing up to get in. I'm sorry you experience it differently, but I am a would-be immigrant and I love it here.

Be grateful you come from a place people are desperate to get into, and not desperate to leave.

oldgoat

Quote:

Was it racist when some African tribes eradicated or made slaves of other tribes through their own military or technological might?
There is far too much self loathing on this forum,

. I'd say no. No more that when European or other peoples have tried to eradicate eachother so they could have their land/stuff. It is racist when one African group (f'rinstance) tries to eradicate or subject another after they've been given arms and resources, by white colonialist powers, or have one group set up by white commercial Imperialist powers as proxy administrators, thus causing a gawdawful socioeconomic mess and slaughter down the road, but it's white racism. Further, i'm not aware of any self loathing here, just honest analysis. If that causes some discomfort, it's probably a healthy thing.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Viking77 wrote:
 Canada is one of the safest and best countries in the world - for anyone.

Not for anyone. For certain people. Otherwise:

No.  

It.

Is.

Not.

And I only got to page 2 of google for those.

remind remind's picture

Quote:
I have certainly profited from the opression of peoples in the past

 

No actually, yarg is wrong, he is still profitting from the oppression of people, as are you viking, and everyone else who is not FN's in Canada.

 

And "grateful"?

 

"grateful" to fucking whom?

 

First Nations? As that is whom everyone owes their standard of living to.

G. Muffin

oldgoat wrote:
G. Pie, glad you finally get to go home.  You've sure had a hell of a time.  I hope you can cozy up at home and enjoy doing whatever you want.

Thanks, Oldgoat.  I must say it feels weird to have my complete and utter freedom restored.  I can pee in the back yard and howl at the moon again.  Plus!!!  I got a DVD player for Crispix and I have seasons #1, #2 and #3 of Seinfeld.

sandstone

the beauty, or lack thereof of picking and choosing what one isolates from anothers post is that much can be inferred, that wouldn't be if it remained in the context it was offered.... case in point is the quote of viking77 "Canada is one of the safest and best countries in the world - for anyone."with this response from maysie - "no it is not"

here is viking77's full post which i am in agreement with...

"Yarg - spot on.

 

Maysie is right, racism kills people. I've seen it. Having helped feed and clothe refugees who were burnt out of their shacks and communities because they were from a 'different' African country, just last year, I can testify that racism, or "xenophobia" is a nasty issue.

Which is why it shouldn't be trivialised. The world is a nasty place - and I'm sure many of your readers have lived in some horrible places. Canada is one of the safest and best countries in the world - for anyone. That's why hundreds of thousands of people are queing up to get in. I'm sorry you experience it differently, but I am a would-be immigrant and I love it here.

Be grateful you come from a place people are desperate to get into, and not desperate to leave."

remind remind's picture

100's of thousands of people have no right to queue up to get in, Canada is stolen land, and it  does not belong to the Queen, nor developers, it belongs to First Nations.

 

Those that fail to realize this have internalized racism a mile deep and 2 miles wide.

 

 

sandstone

ignoring 2 or 3 hundred years of history is an interesting approach... perhaps a better way is to make amends, which is what the canuck gov't has tried to do.... perhaps that is not good enough for some, but it has been good enough for many, including the first nation folks that have signed on to it...

Viking77

Thanks, Sandstone :)

Remind - it's almost impossible to answer you without sounding 'racist'.

What is your answer? Sandstone above offers an ideal solution which seems an awful lot better than your "all whiteys must bugger off" approach.

Given that:

1) 32 million 'immigrants' aren't just going to leave, and

2) The First Nations are themselves ultimately immigrants (must they clear off back to Siberia? After all, they stole the land from the bears and the beavers).

what is the way forward in this? Do the First Nations people even want the 'colonists' to leave? have you asked them? Maybe they like Canadians.

Eternal grovelling and self-hatred doesn't seem much of an answer either. Canada can either integrate the Native peoples, or leave them alone and let them live how they want. It seems to me the latter is a lot more fair, but I'd certainly want to leave the choice up to them.

 ...Interesting too - If you were to walk up to a Bengali-Canadian and tell him he had no right to live in Canada, you'd be dragged up before the HRC. And rightly, so.

Should the Zulus all leave South Africa? After all, they've been there less than 200 years, and they came in a wave of colonisation and massacres, of which, I might add, they are very proud.

 

Fidel

Indigenous people found the place first and squatted on the land a lot longer than the seven year legal limit for taking possessing. Or whatever whitey's law says, they've satisfied the legal requirements for ownership by tens of millennia. And besides, bears and beavers were never coerced into signing bullshit treaties that amounted to theft and extortion and daylight robbery, and for which whitey has already admitted to dealing in bad faith in those days. Bears and beavers come with the flora and fauna and billions of dollars worth of oil and gas and other resources in the ground, deal or no deal.

sandstone

 

while we're being idealistic, lets consider doing away with the military.. i think they have a certain amount of say in who gets to stay and who has to go.... a certain part of human nature has always applied the 'might makes right' axiom... i think it's a wonderful idea to consider updating this... sugggestions?

i'm not saying everyone will want to overturn this axiom... what does one do if some folks like keeping things the way they are at present in this regard???

theboxman

I was under the impression that one of the policies of this subforum was discussion "from an anti-racist viewpoint." That doesn't seem to be in evidence with this derail which has quickly turned into an unproductive repetition of the tired denials and dismissals. 

j.m.

I admire the posters who are engaged in this debate with those who a) will not even acknowledge their privilege and b) do not recognize that merely acknowledging their privilege is insufficient; rather it is an attempt to absolve them of further commitment to contesting injustices. 

I think the race issue is a rather important issue to highlight, but there are other forms of privileges that also should be recognized. I think one of them is our relative wealth that allows us to engage in these lengthy debates in our leisure time (or at least in jobs that allow us the almost risk-free opportunity to appropriate productive time with personal time, unlike many of the jobs of the people who produce our goods). This is a privilege that we should be very serious about as well.

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