What can be done to de-radicalize extremist white nationalism

38 posts / 0 new
Last post
swallow
What can be done to de-radicalize extremist white nationalism

x

swallow

Quote:
As white people, it was our turn to experience the cold shock of discovering that a significant part of our community has been radicalized, sometimes over the Internet, into a form of intolerant extremism that rejects conventional Western values and threatens the integrity of entire countries. That it has so far manifested itself in ballots rather than bombs shouldn’t mask its gravity: Because we are so numerous, our zealots are capable of paralyzing nations.

We need to do what we have long told other groups to do when they face an extremism problem: Speak up about it, identify it, try to understand what has happened to so many people like us, find a way to lead them away from extremism.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-do... real reason Donald Trump got elected? We have a white extremism problem[/url]

Pondering

swallow wrote:

Quote:
As white people, it was our turn to experience the cold shock of discovering that a significant part of our community has been radicalized, sometimes over the Internet, into a form of intolerant extremism that rejects conventional Western values and threatens the integrity of entire countries. That it has so far manifested itself in ballots rather than bombs shouldn’t mask its gravity: Because we are so numerous, our zealots are capable of paralyzing nations.

We need to do what we have long told other groups to do when they face an extremism problem: Speak up about it, identify it, try to understand what has happened to so many people like us, find a way to lead them away from extremism.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-do... real reason Donald Trump got elected? We have a white extremism problem[/url]

Interesting article written to protect neoliberalism.

After all, the tragedy this week was not just that a radical faction within the white community broke away from the rest of the United States and elected an extremist, but that they abandoned the Democratic and Republican parties in the process, leaving mainstream politics without a language that can lead to victory.

The problem is radicals not the system.

It might be worth facing the problem directly: If the strongest predictors of white radicalization are a lack of postsecondary education and residence in an ethnically segregated non-urban community, it’s worth thinking of reducing the number of people who live this way. Increasing the proportion of adults with university or college educations is both economically sensible – since this is where the middle-class incomes are found – and also politically wise. Canada has a considerably higher rate of postsecondary education than the United States, and it may be one reason why these currents of intolerant racial politics have not washed up here significantly.

No middle-class jobs without a college education. All the service jobs can continue to be done by an underclass. Fast food, retail, garbage collection, road work, if it doesn't require college it isn't a middle class job.

“I’m interested in how reframing the language of national identity can have an effect,” he says. Instead of celebrating “diversity” as a virtue in itself, it may be better to focus on the other side of the immigration coin, the near-universal tendency of newcomers to adopt universal values, to become part of mainstream society, to intermarry, to become "normal."

Here you go, we need to focus on assimilation.

Great example of the kind of people blaming this on racism.

 

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

In Québec,asshole extraordinaire Frankie Legault has come out to praise Trump.

In Ontario,a judge showed up to work in a Trump hat.

In Canada,Kellie Leitch has said she wants to campaign like Trump.

Forget about the States. We need to ensure that provincially and federally that the current American experience cannot and will not happen here.

I think we should get involved right now,today,to make sure fascism is stopped at the border.

Don't think it can't happen here.

Pondering

alan smithee wrote:

In Québec,asshole extraordinaire Frankie Legault has come out to praise Trump.

In Ontario,a judge showed up to work in a Trump hat.

In Canada,Kellie Leitch has said she wants to campaign like Trump.

Forget about the States. We need to ensure that provincially and federally that the current American experience cannot and will not happen here.

I think we should get involved right now,today,to make sure fascism is stopped at the border.

Don't think it can't happen here.

So what do you think is the cause and the solution?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Pondering wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

In Québec,asshole extraordinaire Frankie Legault has come out to praise Trump.

In Ontario,a judge showed up to work in a Trump hat.

In Canada,Kellie Leitch has said she wants to campaign like Trump.

Forget about the States. We need to ensure that provincially and federally that the current American experience cannot and will not happen here.

I think we should get involved right now,today,to make sure fascism is stopped at the border.

Don't think it can't happen here.

So what do you think is the cause and the solution?

The cause? Maybe 30 years of neo-liberalism. The solution? At any and all costs.

NDPP

The Myth of the Reactionary White Working Class

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/11/12/pers-n12.html

"This identity-based presentation of Tuesday's election is a fake narrative exploded by the most basic analysis of the data."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The "liberal" media only discovered the existence of the working class in order to criticize a large part of it. The rest of the time they simply deny that the working class exists at all, and, at best, wallow in post-modern identity politics that is easily co-opted into policies virulently antagonistic to working people.

So any claims by the same media that got the election so wrong are still suspect. Here's a little related humour.

All sorts of bigots are claiming Trump as their own. Let's see what he actually DOES before passing judgment.

mark_alfred

Quote:

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-do... real reason Donald Trump got elected? We have a white extremism problem[/url]

Thanks.  Good article.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Wow.  Makes you nostalgic for 2008, and 2012, before the white extremists.

swallow

[url=https://www.buzzfeed.com/mirajacob/a-letter-to-my-brown-son-about-trumps..."If Trump doesn’t like boys who look like me, does that mean the government won’t like me? The army? What about the police?”[/url]

mark_alfred

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/opinion/america-elects-a-bigot.html

Quote:

It is hard to know specifically how to position yourself in a country that can elect a man with such staggering ineptitude and open animus. It makes you doubt whatever faith you had in the country itself.

Also, let me be clear: Businessman Donald Trump was a bigot. Candidate Donald Trump was a bigot. Republican nominee Donald Trump was a bigot. And I can only assume that President Donald Trump will be a bigot.

It is absolutely possible that America didn’t elect him in spite of that, but because of it. Consider that for a second. Think about what that means. This is America right now: throwing its lot in with a man who named an alt-right sympathizer as his campaign chief.

[..]

That is not a person worthy of applause. That is a person who must be placed under unrelenting pressure. Power must be challenged, constantly. That begins today.

lagatta4

Historically, European fascism took hold in times of economic and social crisis. Remember the wheelbarrows full of currency to buy groceries?

And it was a means to quash working-class and leftist movements (if only that were such a factor nowadays!)

But they drew upon ancient racist and other discriminatory beliefs and modernized them into a modern killing factory. 

I want to point out a horrible recent case: a white supremacist who killed an innocent, elderly African-American man, one of those pensioners who collect and recycle bottles and cans, as "practice" for systemic killing of Black people. And so far Trump hasn't denounced THIS terrorist. 

Killing innocent human beings as "practice" is racist murder in the Nazi or Klan sense. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/28/white-supremacist-...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

At least he has been charged with a terrorism offence.

"A white US Army veteran accused of fatally stabbing a 66-year-old black man has been charged with murder as an "act of terrorism" after telling police he was planning a race-based killing spree."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/03/james-jackson-charged-terrorism-ki...

lagatta4

That doesn't make the act of using an innocent human being as "killing practice" on the basis of his skin colour any less horrific, but at least it is some kind of recognition. These bastards are VERY dangerous. Remember when Zündel and his followers were dismissed a cranks? 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

White Nationalists, Neo-Nazis & Right-Wing Militia Members Clash with Antifa Protesters in Berkeley

In Berkeley, California, at least 20 people were arrested as fights broke out between white nationalist Trump supporters and antifascist protesters during competing rallies on Saturday. Photos show some of the Trump supporters posing with the Nazi salute. Police say at least one person was stabbed during the clashes. Several more were injured. In one instance, a known white supremacist was videotaped punching a young antifascist woman named Louise Rosealma in the face. The man who is seen punching her is Nathan Damigo, a former marine who founded the white supremacist organization known as "Identity Europa." For more, we speak with award-winning reporter Shane Bauer. His most recent article is titled "I Went Behind the Front Lines with the Far-Right Agitators Who Invaded Berkeley."

quote:

SHANE BAUER: Well, he was—he was saying something that I heard from a lot of people, that they came out for free speech. He also came from another part of the country, which was true for a lot of the people that I spoke to. What was really surprising to me about this demonstration and this rally was the kind of—the coalition that came together. I mean, there were white nationalist groups, like Identity Europa. There was one group that spoke at the rally called the Pink Pistols, which is an LGBT group that are Second Amendment advocates and supporters of Trump, because they support the Muslim ban. There were African-American speakers that spoke in favor of Trump. There were—was a writer from AltRight.com who, you know, spreads the conspiracy theory of white genocide. I mean, it was a really strange coalition of people that were coming together under this kind of one banner of free speech and, you know, being able to say what they want.

lagatta4

Pinkwashing is very dangerous, from the Netherlands to Tel Aviv.  Peter Drucker analyses this phenomenon in his latest book: Warped: Gay Normality and Queer Anti-Capitalism. http://www.brill.com/products/book/warped

quizzical

​didn't want to start a new topic.

An eminent Canadian historian whose writings on the Holocaust in Poland have attracted death threats said Tuesday that fierce criticism of his research is an unjustified attack on academic freedom.

In an interview, University of Ottawa Prof. Jan Grabowski, 55, said he would not allow the "campaign of hate" to distract him from delving into what he called an ugly, but little-told, piece of history.

"I feel personally attacked but this is for me a much more dangerous and general problem that has to be dealt with," Grabowski told The Canadian Press from Ottawa. "It's a pure and simple attack on basic academic freedoms, which we take for granted here in Canada. I'm dismayed."

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canadian-prof-says-hes-a-target-of-...

NDPP

United Anti-War Coalition Conference, Part 1 of 2

https://www.blackagendareport.com/node/5884

"Against war, injustice and repression. And end to the wars, occupations at home and abroad."

 

UNAC Conference Highlights Part 2 of 2

https://www.blackagendareport.com/node/5883

The building of such movements here is an answer to the question posed by this thread.

lagatta4

Back to the topic of white extremism, a spot of good news! The notorious neo-Nazi Ernst Zündel has died.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ernst-zundel-dead-1.4237598 Remember that he was not ONLY a Holocaust denier, disgusting as that is. He organized neo-Nazi bands who have attacked people of colour, Jews and Roma. And there have been demonstrations of solidarity with the scum by such Nazi filth as the reborn Arrow Cross in Hungary...

I know that in a sense it is silly to be happy about someone dying, as it is a normal biological process and we will all die. But one fewer Nazi is a warm and fuzzy thought...

6079_Smith_W

Interesting question, considering that white extremism, unlike other forms, is linked to the status quo.

I don't think anything can be done to de-radicalize the real extremists, but one can fight their propaganda and help prevent others from getting suckered into it. That said, former neo-Nazi Maxime Fiset is an example of one who is now fighting against right extremism:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/islamophobia-david-gutnick-meet...

And we also have the historical examples of the KKK and neo-Nazi organizations in Canada in the 20s and 30s. In the case of the KKK here in Saskatchewan, part of what broke their power was pointing out their connection to the Conservative Party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_in_Canada

As for what can be done now, I think the best thing is to keep shining a light on it. It was really good to see this article at the top of the front page of our Saturday paper. The printed headline was actually a lot harsher, and harder to ignore.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/saskatchewan+land+living+skies+racial+divi...

 

NDPP

Examining the Connections Between Zionist and Anti-Native Mobilizing in Canada

https://6nsolidarity.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/examining-the-connections-...

"White supremacist ideologies have brought the neo-Nazis, McHale, Vandermaas, other anti-native activists and the pro-Israel Zionists together."

 

Allies in Hate: Soldiers of Odin and the Jewish Defence League

http://warrenkinsella.com/2017/04/allies-in-hate-soldiers-of-odin-and-th...

"Hateful birds of a feather etc. But what isn't in question is that the Jewish Defence League and Soldiers of Odin are now united..."

6079_Smith_W

There are schisms between the Canadian, Quebec and Finnish branches of Soldiers of Odin. Despite what they claim here, it is likely just over the window dressing. I seriously doubt they are all that different.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/soldiers-of-odin-splinter-in-canada-...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Despite what they claim here, it is likely just over the window dressing. I seriously doubt they are all that different.

I'd bet it's less likely over "racism" and more over the need to keep racism on the down low.

Organized racists have always carried a big stick, but only recently have they seemed to feel the need to walk softly.

6079_Smith_W

Exactly my meaning.

Maybe in their case it is so they will keep landing those security gigs, or keep their license.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I also find it kind of funny that they seem to want to retain the name (or, "the brand").

If the original (and presumably slightly more legitimate) "Soldiers of Odin" aren't something you can support, why would you want to march under their flag?

If you're Canadian, why not anoint yourselves "the Recruits of MacDonald", or "The Bodyguards of Yahweh" or whatever?  It's kind of sounding like someone joining the Hell's Angels and then saying "why did nobody ever tell me they're associated with organized crime????"

Boze

It's practically axiomatic that identity politics encourages white identity politics.

I don't see any way to de-radicalize or de-legitimize this phenomenon other than by championing the individual above group membership.

It's the same with all axes of identity. Terms like "mansplaining" will inevitably lead to men's identity politics - and that shit can never be progressive.

MegB

Boze wrote:

It's the same with all axes of identity. Terms like "mansplaining" will inevitably lead to men's identity politics - and that shit can never be progressive.

Right, because we all know that women, especially feminist women, are to blame for groups of men who behave like assholes.

Boze

MegB wrote:

Boze wrote:

It's the same with all axes of identity. Terms like "mansplaining" will inevitably lead to men's identity politics - and that shit can never be progressive.

Right, because we all know that women, especially feminist women, are to blame for groups of men who behave like assholes.

You can interpret it that way if you want, but I am talking about the effect of ideas. If you tell men to identify themselves as men, don't be surprised that they adopt politics that promote the interests of their group identity as they see it, instead of liberatory or "ally" politics. It is a toxic development, but I don't know any way to counter it other than by promoting universal values and not treating people as members of groups. It doesn't seem like we have any other ideas, so maybe we can at least talk about this one.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

And we're entering MRA territory. Groovy.

Seriously, get help, Boze.

Boze

Timebandit wrote:

And we're entering MRA territory. Groovy.

Seriously, get help, Boze.

Maybe we're not speaking the same language, but if it wasn't clear, I was saying that MRAs are a toxic development.

Do we want a paradigm that can tell us what to do about that development, or do we just want to say "well, they're bad people." We are losing the war of identity politics, Timebandit. MRAs and White Nationalists infest youtube and the rest of the internet so thoroughly that their ideas now have far greater reach than ours.

Mobo2000

Meg and Timebandit:   You are aggressively misreading the posts above by Boze, I'd try to take up the mantle but it seems a little too risky to me.    Hate to get hit with that ban hammer.    Have a nice day.

 

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Mobo, the argument that we create MRAs by engaging in identity politics is deeply flawed. If you can't point out white men as a group, but only individuals, you can't challenge the structures that support white male privilege. And if you can't do that, antiracist and feminist initiatives are dead in the water.

Ultimately, you'd have to prosecute (I don't mean this in the legal sense, necessarily) every incidence of someone's rights being infringed on a case by case basis. What that does, in turn, is necessitate a defense of whether your rights have been infringed every time.

The reason we have to address things in terms of groups is that you can't effect change systemically on an individual basis. This has been pointed out to Boze numerous times. And what he's suggesting is that women/feminists identifying themselves as a group leads to MRAs forming and identifying themselves as a group. Therefore, feminists working collectively bear responsibility for MRAs existing. Fuck that noise.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I think that the biggest problem with identifying "white males" (or, "white cis-sexual, heterosexual males") as a group is that it seems sometimes like it's the only group that it's OK to generalize about.

If one were to say "Muslims gave us the problems in the Middle East" the response would be that most Muslims aren't radicals, almost none are terrorists, and we need to make very clear that we're only talking about a very small segment of the Muslim population.

But if we say "White males gave us Donald Trump", that's fine.  Any white males who don't feel that they helped give the world Donald Trump would be urged to suppress any desire to say so.  No need to exclude some white males if that could only weaken the argument (or let some white male off the hook to fix the problem that "he helped create").

I'm not some MRA militant or anything.  But I'd like the same opportunity to be excluded from the "white male problem" group the same as the guy who owns the convenience store down the block would like to be excluded from the "Muslim problem" group, and for the same reason.

FWIW, I've no objection to someone pointing out facts like the earning potential of white males, or the electability of white males or whatever.  That's statistics.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Except that, Magoo, we can't just exempt ourselves no matter how much we wish we could.

I try not to be guilty of taking advantage of white privilege. However, there are times where the advantage is given, even if I haven't sought it and do try to work against it. There are situations where I know I'm being given a pass or being treated especially well because I'm a nicely dressed white woman. Sometimes it's as soft as something just not being questioned or challenged on some things when it is not uncommon for that to happen to someone else who isn't in your particular category. Being aware of that is a good thing and being someone who will call to account someone who is participating in some soft or not so soft discrimination makes you an ally. Claiming it doesn't apply to you is really unhelpful because it does, however injurious that is to your self-concept.

None of us get to opt out of the system until it changes, no matter how much we'd like to. And as with all things, the assholes make it harder for the rest of us.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
However, there are times where the advantage is given, even if I haven't sought it and do try to work against it.

OK, I'm not even arguing against my privelege.  Like I said in my last paragraph, I know I have a better earning potential, I know I'm more "electable" and so on. 

What I feel an urge to push back against is the assertion that because of my skin and genitals, I'm also "responsible" for something -- rape culture, western hegemony, sexism, racism, gun violence, income inequality...

Again, I do feel like this is the only time that progressives will feel comfortable assigning "group blame".  We would feel uncomfortable generalizing about Muslims or Catholics or Africans or soccer fans the same way.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

See, here's the thing. I don't see this as "group blame". It's often taken that way, and I'll gently suggest here that it's a defenisiveness that goes along with not being challenged much. IOW, you can afford to look at those issues as an individual who isn't culpable, but people in your category can't because we can't all know you. That's why the #notallmen thing is so fucking frustrating. We know that there's a demographic that disproportionately displays harmful behaviours with little or no consequence. It's great that not everyone in that demographic displays those behaviours, but we have to talk about the proportion who do and look at the systemic reasons for that. The good guys taking it personally doesn't help - and in some cases hinders.

So try not to take it personally. Nobody is acgtually asking you to feel guilt or take responsibility for other individuals. It's not about you, and when we go down the "I didn't as an individual do that thing", you're making it about you and not the thing. I try not to take the white person stuff personally and recognize that there are times where, through none of my doing, I may have to step up or deal with some frustration toward my demographic. I just try to understand it and do what I can.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Also note: I have no difficulty generalizing sports fans. None. ;)