Expose the vandals

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Lennonist
Expose the vandals

 

This thread should be strictly for hard evidence. No political back-and-forth about the pros and cons of violent protest. Do not ruin this thread with non evidence. I ask moderators to move other comments to other threads.

 

Here is public enemy #1

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=455347&id=681970186&l=83cd8e10af

 

There is good evidence on this video

 

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/the-mayhem/#clip318869

 

The cops will not catch these people. It is not in their best interests. We must accumulate evidence in one location and then present it to the right people. There are tons of video and pictures taken by citizens that is emerging. Let's do our own forensic investigation.

 

Issues Pages: 
Maysie Maysie's picture

Do you consider the police "vandals"?

remind remind's picture

puking and going for a shower

Lord Palmerston

What about the gangsters, hoodlums and thugs who go by the name "Toronto Police Service"?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

The first link is to the images on a facebook page. They are now all over facebook and ought to be here too.

skdadl

Frustrated Mess wrote:

The first link is to the images on a facebook page. They are now all over facebook and ought to be here too.

I agree. I think people are missing the subtlety of the OP.

Webgear

 

It is noticeable that several people did not read the links before posting. Jude has some good pictures of the vandals.

cruisin_turtle

Somebody save that video before ctv takes it off their website.  There is a lot of evidence on the web,  But who are the right people you want to present it to?   Bill Blair openly says that he doesn't care what Torontonians think. 

remind remind's picture

Don Davies is calling the Public Safety Committee back,

 

and  I did niot go to Facebook,  just do not like advocating ratting unless one can prove provocateurs,

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

We have a face and a video, remind. I'm not saying the face belongs to a provacateur. I am saying the face belongs to a man vandalizing a police car. And for some reason, that I can't figure out, only activists seem interesting in identifying the culprit. I'm just saying is all.

Unionist

Right on, FM. I'm quite sure the police will show no interest and take no action when they see the evidence about these creeps. Don't know why, but it's just a kinda feeling I have. But we should remember their faces very well - because if we don't defend our own struggles and actions, no one else will.

Lennonist

I want that chick with the umbrella to answer a few questions. Can anybody get a screengrab of her face? There are a couple of good face shots of enablers who tried to stop photos who probably know the vandals. I do not know how to scoop that video off of CTV. Somebody please get it on youtube fast.

mahmud

cruisin_turtle wrote:

Somebody save that video before ctv takes it off their website.  There is a lot of evidence on the web,  But who are the right people you want to present it to?   Bill Blair openly says that he doesn't care what Torontonians think. 

A hot summer of protests can melt all oppressors, McGuinty, Blair and his and his gang of thugs' apologist (Chair of the Police Board) Alok Mukerjee. It might take 3 thousand militants (myself included) willing to be mass-arrested in an act of civil desobedience. 

writer writer's picture

The question is also raised here: http://www.acreativerevolution.ca/node/2474

and here: http://openfile.ca/blog/man-black

Journalist Antonia Zerbisias has been tweeting about him today, too.

writer writer's picture
N.R.KISSED

Shall we expose the Visigoths next?

Unionist

Amusing.

N.R.KISSED

I wish I could say the same for this thread. I find it rather disconcerting. I can appreciate the intent to expose provocateurs. even though the thread is not entitled "Expose the Provocateurs" On the other hand I am not comfortable with the idea of turning people over to the cops or having them encounter the criminal justice system. How many do we throw to the cops in the hope of catching a provocateur?

WillC

This is a link for a great picture of the person.  His clothes are so spiffey, it looks like he just picked them up at the cop shop that morning.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mollymotmot/4741238382/in/photostream/

Lennonist

Hey N.R.KISSED,

I find it rather disconcerting that you condone vandals in my city. I do not know where you are from but you can go trash your own city. I will never support any pricks who vandalize. This thread is to expose any and all vandals. I would love to uncover any provocateurs. Vandals are not my brothers. Toronto may have some problems but when compared to all other cities with populations of 5 million+ this city is one of the greatest to raise your family and live a decent quality of life with respect for all. People with your attitude sicken me and if your attitude is embraced by the majority of this board then I obviously came to the wrong place. I want the criminals who vandalized this city to be exposed - whether they are agent provocateurs or idiot vandals trashing a Mom-and-Pop leather store on Yonge Street.

 

So screw you N.R.KISSED!

Lennonist

The picture of this guy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mollymotmot/4741238382/in/photostream/

I think I know him from Vancouver downtown East Side from a decade ago. He was a badass malcontent named Nils who got barred from every hotel because he was a loose cannon with a bad attitude. The Van police know this guy. If it's him - maybe its his twin brother - he is exactly the kind of asshole who would do this.

 

Michelle

Psst.  This is N.R.KISSED's city too.  He's a Torontonian. And even when we disagree, I recognize he's an ally. I think your hostility towards him is out of line.

That said, I also think the cops should have focused their energy on the window smashers (which is what they were paid a billion dollars to do, among other things) instead of attacking peaceful protesters. I also don't think there's any place for smashing windows and torching police cars.  So if they aren't provocateurs and cops catch the people who did it, I won't cry.  I think they should have been stopped by police as soon as they started pulling that shit.

But there are people who also recognize that the justice system is flawed to the point that they don't want to voluntarily give anyone up to it, even people who do stupid shit like this.  I can respect that point of view.

N.R.KISSED

Lennonist wrote:

Hey N.R.KISSED,

I find it rather disconcerting that you condone vandals in my city. I do not know where you are from but you can go trash your own city. I will never support any pricks who vandalize. This thread is to expose any and all vandals. I would love to uncover any provocateurs. Vandals are not my brothers. Toronto may have some problems but when compared to all other cities with populations of 5 million+ this city is one of the greatest to raise your family and live a decent quality of life with respect for all. People with your attitude sicken me and if your attitude is embraced by the majority of this board then I obviously came to the wrong place. I want the criminals who vandalized this city to be exposed - whether they are agent provocateurs or idiot vandals trashing a Mom-and-Pop leather store on Yonge Street.

 

So screw you N.R.KISSED!

I live in Toronto but clearly a different Toronto than you inhabit. Toronto was vandalized long bofore the Black bloc came to down. Queen Street was vandalized by the corporations that ran the independent book and record and clothing stores out and turned it into an outdoor mall. Many working class communities have been vandalized by social cleansing and condos that have made living here unaffordable for many. My own home for the past eight years in under the wrecking ball and we just wait for the noticeI am fortunate and privileged, I will find another place this is not true for many. I have not endorsed the actions of the Black block but I also do not share the enemity that some do towards them. I was only raising some concerns but the degree of your response demonstrates that enemity comes quite naturally to you. You seem pretty quick to define what my attitude is without the slightest reflection.As for Toronto being such a wonderful place that is not the experience of a significant number of people but perhaps those people don't make it on your radar. It is also those people that have to face the violence of the police and the state on a daily basis. It may be a wonderful place for you but to me it has become increasingly cold and indifferent to the existence of suffering amongst us.

The reason I find this thread uncomfortable is because it feels like vigilantism which is the exact kind of mob mentality that you seem to object to or maybe it is only the destruction of private property that offends you.

I also don't like the idea of handing people over to the authorities.

I think the broader point to be made and has been made by plenty of others is why did the police not respond or intervene at the time.

Finally if you respond this way to anyone who disagrees with you than you are in the wrong place.

Unionist

N.R.KISSED wrote:

I wish I could say the same for this thread. I find it rather disconcerting. I can appreciate the intent to expose provocateurs. even though the thread is not entitled "Expose the Provocateurs" On the other hand I am not comfortable with the idea of turning people over to the cops or having them encounter the criminal justice system. How many do we throw to the cops in the hope of catching a provocateur?

Fully agree. My emphasis all along has been that we must avert and (where we can't) deal with provocations ourselves. It is fatally naive to see the cops as any kind of "allies" in this struggle. I am also extremely skeptical of the kind of "exposé" that says, "the cops didn't do their job". People must clearly learn what the true job of the cops is, and that the agents provocateur work hand-in-hand with that real job, whether they do so wittingly or not.

Quote:

The reason I find this thread uncomfortable is because it feels like vigilantism which is the exact kind of mob mentality that you seem to object to or maybe it is only the destruction of private property that offends you.

Well, there we part ways. "Vigilantism" (though the word has the wrong connotations) is exactly what the movement must do - police itself, organize itself, suppress provocations itself.

Quote:
I think the broader point to be made and has been made by plenty of others is why did the police not respond or intervene at the time.

Not very telling point. The police have pointed to the "brilliant" decoy tactics of the "criminal conspirators", which allegedly threw the police off-guard in the early stages. The broader point to be made is that individual assholes and the police do exactly the same damage, in conscious or unconscious coordination, to our struggle. If we find concrete evidence of collaboration, all the better. But we may not, and we must make our point anyway.

cruisin_turtle

N.R.KISSED wrote:

I think the broader point to be made and has been made by plenty of others is why did the police not respond or intervene at the time.

I was on Queen St along with many other area residents when the vandalism first broke out.  The police, out numbering the protesters, stood back  doing nothing as a couple of youths ran forward with sticks in their hands and started hitting a police car with the sticks.  Then the police, maybe thinking it will look bad if they appeared in pictures beside the 2 guys smashing the police car, moved further back.  Half a block away, a large formation of an armored riot squad stood by indifferent as if the destruction of a police car meters away is nothing of their concern.  This went on for sometime,

When I saw this I got disgusted and went home.  Jeniffer Howlett on the CBC reported what I just saw in amazement and was wondering why did the police act this way!  Shortly thereafter David Miller was speaking to the press and when asked about it he said "I don't want to second guess the police".  The media has avoided talking about this since and instead have focussed any criticism of the police on the indiscriminate arrests that followed the next day. But I think what happened early Saturday afternoon is by far the more serious problem.

Maysie Maysie's picture

[Mod hat on]

Hey Leninist. You're new here. Don't talk like that to other babblers. This is your first and last warning.

[Mod hat off]

 

And my original comment way upthread (and I did look at both links) is to question why is a certain kind of violence framed as criminal, and other kinds, like violence done by armed agents of the state, or by capitalists, like NRK is referring to, not thought of as violence that needs to be stopped?

I support catching the asses that committed vandalism and harm to property, but my preference is to hold the police accountable who assaulted protestors, kidnapped people off the street, violated human and civil rights, etc. But that's me.

 

Polunatic2

Quote:
my preference is to hold the police accountable who assaulted protestors, kidnapped people off the street, violated human and civil rights, etc.

There's a rally today (July 1) at Queen's Park in Toronto @ 5:30 calling for a public inquiry to try and do just that. 

However, the two are not mutually exclusive. Thanks Lennonist for getting taking the initiative and getting this discussion going. 

6079_Smith_W

@ Maysie

 

On different forms of violence, Agreed. I think the difference is that the case against the police is solid (even the mainstrem acknowledges it), and when cops screw up or are given an unethical job to do it is clear where to direct our anger and action.

With the vandals the case is more grey, because some people see them as allies with objectives ostensibly similar to ours, and some of their tactics have been seen to be helpful. And in terms of responding to it, they don't have an office where we can make a complaint.  It is even more muddy because many of them are anonymous, and there is evidence of the cops masquerading as them.

So I don't think the fact people are focusing more on them means they are disregarding the violence perpetrated by the state.

Michelle

I don't think it's either-or, Maysie.  The same people who want the vandals caught also want a public inquiry to hold the police accountable for their actions against protesters.  There are a lot of people, including me, who think that the people engaging in these destructive tactics are simply helping the police crack down, whether that is their intention or not.

E.Tamaran

You do realize that the Black Bloc was the only group at the G8/G20 that kept its word? Not the politicians, police, or "regular" protesters.

Unionist

You do realize that the Black Bloc is not a group?

 

E.Tamaran

Not at this very moment they aren't, but when they show up they are a group, then they disband until the next time they're needed.

Michelle

What do you mean, "regular protesters" didn't keep their word?

Erik Redburn

Those unwilling to fight the revolution, one busted window at a time... 

Good discussions though, nice to see this sensitive issue being taken up here.  I'm not comfortable with "outing" these supposed vandals in this particular way myself or giving any information directly to the authorities.   Since there's seems to be some question just who this "Black Bloc" really represents though, maybe some pressure could be put on the local law enforcement authorities to give out their information on who they busted for what act of vandalism.  Put it back on them, as I noticed myself that security guards and cops often stood by while a handful of idiots threw stuff at windows, even when only one or two were involved.  Then took down others who just happened by.  Just like in Vancouver.  That could be useful both ways in clearing all the non-violent protestors who were detained and putting the pressure back on them.  If it turns out that any cops are suspected for instigating any of this, or worse, taking part, then *they* should be exposed as betraying their official responsibility towards those who employ them (the public) for petty political purposes asnd made to foot most of the bill.  Heads would roll.

cruisin_turtle

Turn vandals to the police for what purpose?  The police saw them destroy their cruisers and store windows with their own eyes and did nothing.  I didn't see a single arrest of vandals last Saturday despite the presence of thousands of police in the area.

I saw a video of a civilian making a "citizen arrest" of a youth who broke a window on Yonge street while dozens of cops were close by just standing there.  I read of a store owner who caught a vandal and the police didn't arrest him.

There are numerous videos on the web identifying the trouble makers, did the police act on any of them?  I'm yet to hear of a single case.

Erik Redburn

I never suggested turning anyone *over* to the cops, I said I wasn't comfortable with that idea either, but if the bulls let all the actual vandals walk while arresting bystanders then that too could be used against them.  

cruisin_turtle

This youtube video suggests that cops use certain groups who have experience posing as anarchists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbLU9tdDwxo&feature=related
 
What was wierd from the behaviour of these mad Black Bloc rioters who were smashing property everywhere is that they were careful never to attack any other persons even ones who physically tackled them! Because that would warrant police to arrest them unlike damage to property.

trippie

great, the working class turning on each other. What's the big deal about some broken windows? How many workers were expoited to build those windows and put them there?

 

Same thing with the cars. Big deal, So what?

 

Don't fall for the tricks. Stick to the message.. Capitalism is sucking you dry, not some guy burning a cop car or smashing a window.

6079_Smith_W

trippie wrote:

great, the working class turning on each other. What's the big deal about some broken windows? How many workers were expoited to build those windows and put them there?

 

Not to ge off the specific topic of this thread, but I would wager there was more exploitation involved in making your or my shoes than making and  re-installing a broken sealed unit window. Do you know how much most contractors earn?

I assure you vandalism is a very big deal to a small business,. It is VERY offensive, and insurance doesn't do much if you have to ante up with several hundred dollars deductable (never mind the losses that are not covered). I don't think you would be asking that question if it were your window, your car or bike, your computer, your guitar or some other valuable thing that got destroyed as a political statement against some world leader.

No Yards No Yards's picture

I think that pragmatically speaking the best bang for the buck will be in going after the laws that were abused by the police rather than the BBers.

We can "use" the BB incidents as examples of police failure to help turn average citizens towards the obvious truth about their police force, but that doesn't mean we have to turn anyone over to the police.

Turning these people over to the police raises concerns for me as well ... I don't trust the police (the city or provincial legislators either for that matter) to be able to act fairly on any information we might give them, and turning your worst allies over to your enemy known for abuse of law and justice doesn't seem to me to be a correct move.

 

Michelle

I think the point of those pictures that Lennonist posted by Jude MacDonald was that the particular "black bloc" person in those pictures looks like a cop. A lot of people think that the worst of them, the instigators that got everyone else going, were undercover cops, and that's why they didn't bother covering their faces -- because they knew they didn't have anything to lose because they were just doing their jobs as cops.

I wouldn't go out of my way to hand over a black bloc protester to the police -- why they hell should I do their job, I pay them more than enough to do it themselves. 

For me, it's about exposing agents provocateurs.  I don't give much of a shit about the unwitting dupes of the cops.  The cops wanted the black bloc protesters to do exactly what they did, probably infiltrated them in order to egg them on, and the black bloc did it, and then gave the cops the pretext to go after the peaceful protesters.  I want the cops who duped them, not the dupes themselves.  They'll grow up eventually and figure out they're being duped.  The cops are the nefarious ones.

If there were cops infiltrating the groups and egging them on, as has been suggested, or if there were cops leaving bait cars and hoping something would happen, or if there were cops among who started the rioting, as many people suspect of that one unmasked guy in black who started trashing the police car with no interference from police, then they should be exposed.

Tommy_Paine

I assure you vandalism is a very big deal to a small business,. It is VERY offensive, and insurance doesn't do much if you have to ante up with several hundred dollars deductable (never mind the losses that are not covered). I don't think you would be asking that question if it were your window, your car or bike, your computer, your guitar or some other valuable thing that got destroyed as a political statement against some world leader.

 

Okay, but where was this outrage when a whole neighborhood, including small businesses were spectacularly vandalized when a propane station blew up? 

 

I'm not sure the Black Block views us as allies, and I'm not sure we should see them as allies.  I know little about them, but from what I've seen they seem to be marching very much to their own agenda.  An agenda I'm not sure we know enough about to know if it dovetails sufficiently with ours to call them allies.

 

But, for all that if you are concerned about the vandalism and other criminal activity spoiling the fair city of Toronto, really, the Black Block guys have to be way, way, way, way, down on your list of priorities.

 

Now, for those who are trying to find out if the guy pictured is an agent provocatuer, I suggest trying to run his photo against pictures of community college law and security graduating classes, or, if possible, photos of private security firms that specialize in things like strike breaking, but I doubt such data bases are public.  But that's where to look.

Cops and Bikers.  Bike gangs don't usually get their own hands dirty when it comes to day to day criminal activity.  Instead, they have "associate members"  and other wannabe Bikers who do that for them.    I would think the cops employ a similar methodology when it comes to this kind of activity.  

 

 

 

 

Michelle

I believe there was outrage, Tommy.  I seem to remember that a lot of people were angry and demanded answers and showed up at City Hall, etc.

Tommy_Paine

 

And got no answers.  I think the people who were outraged were limited to the confines of the neighborhood blown up.  

 

There was never an outpooring of outrage about that event-- on a magnitude many times worse than what happened last weekend-- across Toronto as we've seen said about the BB.  

 

And, there are yet to be any consequences.

 

All I'm saying is that if one's concern is really the alleged criminal activity of the so called "Black Block", that's fine.  But get a grip, and put it in context of other crime in the city.   It may be dramatic, but it's hardly very hardly, the worst crime issue Toronto currently faces.

 

Go arrest the people who work for Perdue Pharma, who are attacking your neighbourhoods and your friends daily and by the hour with Oxycontin.

 

 

Michelle

Well, I think you're wrong.  A lot of people were outraged by it and demanded answers.  It ran for at least a week or two in the Toronto media.  The media uncovered all aspects of the story including the company's neglect, etc.  I don't remember all the details now, but people in Toronto were reading about it for a while, and upset for a while too, that this could happen in a residential neighbourhood.

And the truth is, for this incident now, the media is focusing a lot more on the cops' inaction than they are on the identities of the black bloc.

Tommy_Paine

 

Okay, true.  But I like to bring that up.

 

Also.  I'm right about Perdue pharma.

 

Laughing

dandmb50 dandmb50's picture

I think it was Friday or Saturday around noon I was walking away from the crowd along Dundas East from University and I saw an old white van that was flagging the cops saying they had someone that was injured and was loosing consciousness so the police did approach and assisted them, they pulled off to a side street and they opened the truck and indeed there was an injured man in the back of the truck.

lowns

I later was watching the news at night and saw the video of the days events and one of the stores that was trashed was a Starbucks across from CityTV/MuchMusic and in the video out front of the Stabucks I saw the exact same people? Is that a coincidence? I've been wondering if they were the ones who trashed the Starbucks? Yesterday I went up to the protest at Queenes Park on July 1st and saw the same girl that was at the scene of the man injured. Just wondering.

Saw these clowns everywhere downtown and they would approach the police riot squad lines and try to get the officers to crack a smile.

Daniel .. Toronto

Unionist

Cytizen H wrote:
The people who engage in the Black Bloc have no interest in joining these groups. Most of these people do tremendous amounts of community organizing the 900 days they're not at large summits.

Exaggerate much? How would any person in the world, let alone you, know so much about "most of these people"??

Quote:
These are people who actually have the courage to live a life counter to the capitalist norm. So, should we keep them from doing the positive work they do? What possible value could that have? So? What Then?

I can't even imagine who you're talking about. No one who has "courage" acts anonymously and smashes windows and burns cars. These are acts of cowards.

Quote:
Are you going to restrain them with acts of violence?

Our demonstrations and occupations and mobilizations must be planned and coordinated in concert by the participating organizations. That means marshalls and other means to enforce our tactical decisions. Anyone who refuses to follow the decisions and acts on their own in a disruptive manner should be warned, warned again, and then restrained, using reasonable force.

Calling the police after the fact and squealing on some individuals seems pretty useless at best, given that the individuals in question are likely to be police agents anyway (see Montebello).

Quote:
Do any of you have a right to use your own value judgements to allow you to value corporate property over human life?

That's just plain sophistry. Is that what you got out of days of debate here? That someone feels sorry for a window or a cop car? My "value judgments" tell me that these police agents and/or testosterone-crazed exhibitionist assholes do the following:

1) Alienate ordinary workers, students, minorities, etc. from participating in such protests; and

2) Provide ready-made pretexts for the police to engage in fascist repression - not of the assholes, never ever - but of the vast majority.

People hate this shit. Therefore, we must suppress it. If, as you claim based on unknown evidence, these characters are fine courageous upstanding activists in real life, have a chat with them and explain to them that they have turned into agents of Stephen Harper and McGuinty and Blair and the G20, despite their best intentions. Maybe they'll see the light and stop - if not, they will be stopped.

 

Caissa

 In this case, is it the job of the Left to help the state in the prosecution of crimes against property?

Unionist

Caissa wrote:

Is it the job of the Left to help the state in the prosecution of crimes against property?

If someone dressed in black and wearing a mask enters your home and breaks a coffee pot, and you happen to be a member of the Left, then you tell me what you will do.

Same question, but you see this happening at your neighbour's apartment.

If one thousand marchers are proceeding down the street in accordance with an agreed plan, and three masked individuals separate themselves from the march and (say) start beating up pedestrians in front of TV cameras, what will you do?

If the same three individuals don't beat people up but just start snatching purses in front of the cameras, what will you do?

If the same three individuals don't touch passersby, but start overturning carts of street vendors, what will you do?

Answer those, and then I'll tackle your generalization.

But the real issue is this: We must protect our demonstrations (not someone's property) against sabotage, provocation, and disruption - no matter what form that sabotage takes.

Caissa

I asked specifically in relation to the G20 events, Unioinist. I see your questions as non-sequitors, unless of course they were merely designed to set up your last paragraph.

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