New research suggests Rob Ford’s populist appeal could be duplicated across Canada

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Mighty Middle
New research suggests Rob Ford’s populist appeal could be duplicated across Canada

A new study by EKOS Research and The Canadian Press shows that the same world views held among Trump's supporters still exist in the areas where Ford found a great deal of support in 2010, the suburbs around Toronto's downtown.

The aggregation of polls covering more than 12,000 Canadians suggests those attitudes are equally in play in the suburbs of Montreal and Vancouver as well — raising the question of whether there too is a fertile ground for the same 21st century populism.

It's what EKOS calls an "ordered" view of the world: people questioning the current political status quo, feeling economically and cultural insecure and believing neither they nor their children have a bright future and perhaps might even be slipping backwards.

Ontario - Montreal - Vancouver is profiled in the article below

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/new-research-suggests-rob-...

SocialJustice101

They just switched "conservative" with "ordered" and called it a study.    Didn't we just have  a decade of Harpercons?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
It's what EKOS calls an "ordered" view of the world: people questioning the current political status quo, feeling economically and cultural insecure and believing neither they nor their children have a bright future and perhaps might even be slipping backwards.

When people of colour feel this way, which I'm certain they do, it doesn't seem to result in support for the Trumps of the world.  But when white people feel this way then "it's time to Drain the Gravy Train!!"

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

It's what EKOS calls an "ordered" view of the world: people questioning the current political status quo, feeling economically and cultural insecure and believing neither they nor their children have a bright future and perhaps might even be slipping backwards.

Aside from the "cultural insecure" (i.e. racist) bit, this is exactly the view of me and many other leftists for the last 40 years.  Now it is something that belongs to the Fords? Bullshit.

Mighty Middle

Mainstreet Poll where Doug Ford comes in FIRST in every demo and region except for the 416 and voters 18 -34. He is even polling higher with women than either Kathleen Wynne and Andrea Horwath. NDP doesn't lead in any demo or region

"Would you vote for the PC Party if Doug Ford were leader?"

PC Party (with Doug Ford) - 36.1%

Liberals (With Kathleen Wynne) - 26%

NDP (with Andrea Horwath) - 17%

Male

Doug Ford – 39.8%

Kathleen Wynne - 23.8%

Andrea Horwath - 15%

Female

Doug Ford – 32.5%

Kathleen Wynne - 28.1%

Andrea Horwath – 18.9%

18 – 34

Kathleen Wynne – 34.2%

Doug Ford – 33.3%

Andrea Horwath – 14.7%

35 – 49

Doug Ford – 38.1%

Kathleen Wynne – 21.9%

Andrea Horwath – 20%

50 – 64

Doug Ford – 38.9%

Kathleen Wynne – 22.8%

Andrea Horwath – 17.2%

65+

Doug Ford – 33.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 23.9%

Andrea Horwath – 16.2%

416

Kathleen Wynne – 35.9%

Doug Ford – 32.6%

Andrea Horwath – 17.9%

905

Doug Ford – 39.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 27.1%

Andrea Horwath – 12.5%

Eastern Ontario

Doug Ford – 35%

Kathleen Wynne – 21.1%

Andrea Horwath – 19.2%

South Central Ontario

Doug Ford – 37%

Kathleen Wynne – 25.1%

Andrea Horwath – 14.8%

South Western Ontario

Doug Ford – 37%

Andrea Horwath – 20.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 19.3%

Northern Ontario

Doug Ford – 31.6%

Andrea Horwath – 21.3%

Kathleen Wynne – 17.3%

https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/post-patrick-brown-poll-certainty-onta...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Mighty Middle wrote:

It's what EKOS calls an "ordered" view of the world: people questioning the current political status quo, feeling economically and cultural insecure and believing neither they nor their children have a bright future and perhaps might even be slipping backwards.

Aside from the "cultural insecure" (i.e. racist) bit, this is exactly the view of me and many other leftists for the last 40 years.  Now it is something that belongs to the Fords? Bullshit.

I am not sure that cultural insecurity is necesarily a rascist bit.  The study is from the GTO and environs and they are very heavily populated with first and second generation immigrants. So I would guess that at least as many immigrants would be worried about losing their culture as there are Candian born people. Given the cultural and racial diversity of the GTO white people would have to find a white TO culture that was not US centric in order to be insecure about losing it. GTO culture is about Caribana and the Gay Pride  parade not so much white KKK nut jobs.  Ford polled very well with people from non-white immigrant neighbourhoods.  This has absolutely nothing to do with the Orange Herring.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

lol..looking like Mighty Middle reminds me of an old friend. (tt). Ontario election on its way,let's dust through the garbage bin and rehash Rob Ford's faux populism myth. I beleive that my old friend also believed theat Dougie Ford would become the next Donals Trump for Canada.

No thanks. And just like the majority of Canadians saw through Trump's biggest lie masquerading as a progressive. They didn't buy it. Canadians are going to see right through Ford's faux populism.

Federal populism i.e. what passes as progressive in Alberta with faux populist demagogue Ralph Klein does not necessarily mean that's true in Toronto,Montreal or Vancouver...even the Atlantic provinces.

Populism is inherently left wing. Progressive ideas are popular not just to progressives but to Copenhagen chewin Conservatives. Do a poll with questions free of any partisanship that are direct and not made to mislead. All those deals are supported by a majority of Canadians.

An excellent example i when Bernie Sanders does a town hall in the reddest of states and draw crowds and standing ovations. Sanders is the most popular politician in the Untited States.

Populism is prgressive left not regressive right. So I think the OP is DREAMING or tripping his balls off to think Doug Ford would somehow receive the respect a politician like Bernie Sanders enjloys?. LSD is a hell of a drug. (just ask Doug)

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Populism is inherently is left wing. Progressive ideas are popular not just to progressives but to Copenhagen chewin Conservatives. Do a poll with questions free of any partisanship that are direct and not made to dislead. All those deals are supported by a majority of Canadians.

I've heard this many times, and I continue to wonder why, then, the electorate that "loves" progressive ideas keeps voting for parties that don't.

And please, for the love of Gord, no facile answers like "the media" or "false consciousness" or "brainwashing, plain ansd simple!!!"

SocialJustice101

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Populism is inherently is left wing. Progressive ideas are popular not just to progressives but to Copenhagen chewin Conservatives. Do a poll with questions free of any partisanship that are direct and not made to dislead. All those deals are supported by a majority of Canadians.

I've heard this many times, and I continue to wonder why, then, the electorate that "loves" progressive ideas keeps voting for parties that don't.

And please, for the love of Gord, no facile answers like "the media" or "false consciousness" or "brainwashing, plain ansd simple!!!"

The "maverick" personality of many right-wing "populists."   They pretend to be angry and against the establishment, until they get elected and further boost the establishement.

Mighty Middle

alan smithee wrote:

LSD is a hell of a drug. (just ask Doug)

Doug was allegedly selling Hashish not LSD

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Populism is inherently is left wing. Progressive ideas are popular not just to progressives but to Copenhagen chewin Conservatives. Do a poll with questions free of any partisanship that are direct and not made to dislead. All those deals are supported by a majority of Canadians.

I've heard this many times, and I continue to wonder why, then, the electorate that "loves" progressive ideas keeps voting for parties that don't.

And please, for the love of Gord, no facile answers like "the media" or "false consciousness" or "brainwashing, plain ansd simple!!!"

Because progressives don't understand how to communicate with them. Progressives focus on identity politics and political theories and the evils of capitalism and neoliberalism. The left of Quebec refused to drop sovereignty. Most people don't want to destroy the system. They don't want upheaval. Occupy started off great but when they started embracing everyone's causes it became unfocused.

It's like the Leap Manifesto which put indigeneous rights first and foremost. 

New data from the National Household Survey (NHS) show that 1,400,685 people had an Aboriginal identity in 2011, representing 4.3% of the total Canadian population. Aboriginal people accounted for 3.8% of the population enumerated in the 2006 Census, 3.3% in the 2001 Census and 2.8% in the 1996 Census.Sep 15, 2016

The other 95% of the population never read beyond the first few sentences if that. Great plan. Worst sales job ever. 

There is no need to study to support the right. No need for a college education. They keep their sales pitches short and to the point. 

SocialJustice101

The truth requires details and nuance.  A fake can be short and sweet and tailored to the lowest common denominator.

SeekingAPolitic...

Mr. Magoo 

When was last time a NDP leader ran bernie sanders or corbyn style campaign?  I don't remember in my voting years of that on that happening.  When was the last time a NDP leader on campaign talked about socialism? When has a NDP talked about that rich will pay (a lot) for expanding services for everyone else.  Those kind candidates are weeded in the process as being too radical for the population to take.  The people that run the party risk averse.  Lets run a populist campaign and see if it works.  I agree with the report there is a lot people who are worried that they falling behind and are economically insecure.  I thought that populism was dead in until the recession started.  I am more happy to rethink that.  

Mighty Middle

Now can people here see why 25% of committed NDP voters are part of the Ford Nation coalition

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The Ford Nation coalition. LMAOROF  WTF do you think that is anyways? Do they have membership cards or t-shirts? Thanks for sharing though since I didn't know that voting for a civic politician now makes one part of a unique NATION. LOL

Pondering

SocialJustice101 wrote:
The truth requires details and nuance.  A fake can be short and sweet and tailored to the lowest common denominator.

The truth requires less hoop jumping because it is the truth. There is no need for a big long story to show that all the increases in profit have been going to the 1% for decades. There is no need for a big long story to show that CEO salaries have risen astronomically while worker salaries have stagnated. 85% of Canadians are against the power of companies to sue the government. It's not complicated to say that Trudeau is insisting on keeping the ability of corporations to sue the Canadian government in CETA even though many in Europe don't want it either.

No need to offer complex solutions. Trump didn't. Ford didn't. It's ridiculous that it's the right that runs on "stop the gravy train".  

SeekingAPolitic...

One more thing if a times comes that person like ford can convince that he is for the poor and working poor and that he is working for their interests.  The NDP leadership should resign in mass.  If that kind hoax can be carried out successfully then the NDP useless.  

Mighty Middle

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The Ford Nation coalition. LMAOROF  WTF do you think that is anyways? Do they have membership cards or t-shirts? Thanks for sharing though since I didn't know that voting for a civic politician now makes one part of a unique NATION. LOL

Polling firms have done research on the type of people that are part of Ford Nation. The statistics have been clear, that part of their coalition make up 25% of committed NDP supporters. If you don't believe that, then I guess you can stay in denial...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The "maverick" personality of many right-wing "populists."

We had "Angry Tom", but nobody calls him a populist.

And The Donald is a rich real-estate investor.  How "GRR-GRR-GRR" angry did he have to pretend to be to be NOT the establishment?

Quote:
They pretend to be angry and against the establishment, until they get elected and further boost the establishement.

Then it's totally on the electorate to not keep falling for "I feel your pain".

Quote:
Progressives focus on identity politics and political theories and the evils of capitalism and neoliberalism.

OK.  I don't entirely disagree that the platform of the Left seems, at times, to be "watch this 172 minute YouTube video and prepare to be 'woke'".

But how is it that the majority of the electorate can be on board with progressive ideals and actions, but at the same time be tuning out?  Wouldn't it be one or the other? 

Or, if my local progressive candidate is going on and on about some "Xir" and "Xim" identity politics, why can't I just remind myself that they support a fair wage, environmental standards, and decent labour laws?  That's pretty much what I, personally, do.  I don't agree with the NDP on everything, but I agree with them on more things than I agree with any other party on.

Quote:
Occupy started off great but when they started embracing everyone's causes it became unfocused.

Just to show I'm a good sport, I agree with this.

"We're about everything!  And nothing!  And every nothing in between!  We're a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in vegan bean stew and a $200 North Face down jacket!"

Their historical legacy will be:

1.  We coined the term "the one percent".

2. We held the ball before dropping it because we saw a dozen shiny objects.

SeekingAPolitic...

Quite frankly if ford came along to my community then started talking about bring back jobs in convincing way.  People would eat it up.  Over that last 25 years I would estimate we lost min. 6000 to manufacturing jobs on base of around 42 000 people.  

Young people are moving out, Toronto seniors are moving in.  Sell your home in Toronto for a million plus and buy something in my community for 150,000.  I personal gauge ask how your community is working out.  It quite simple rabble readers you can use in your location.  25 years when I lived with my parents we would get sometimes in a excess of 80 or 90 treat or trick childern at the door.  These days my father gets maybe 10 a year.  But thats nots the end of story by no means.  I have worked on few projects with local food bank, I had few discussions about the makeup of the clients they serve with the director.  I asked about childern, many children use the food bank and especially single mothers.  So where ever these single moms live is not my fathers middle class community.  I don't statically proof but that is model on your community is doing.  Kids are growing up in the community but they are most likely living in poverty.  That is a depressing feature of my community.  So when ford shows up in my community the desperate will give him a hearing.  

Pogo Pogo's picture

Wrong Thread

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
So when ford shows up in my community the desperate will give him a hearing.  

And that's totally fair.  Nothing wrong -- or committal -- about hearing someone out.

But would they give him a vote based on his well-articulated, supported and costed plan to turn things around?

Because if he just shows up in a "Ford Nation" t-shirt and hands out "Ford Nation" bumper stickers and promises that Ford Nation will fulfill all promises and stands with all the downtrodden, the question still remains why the people should vote for conservative silliness.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The Ford Nation coalition. LMAOROF  WTF do you think that is anyways? Do they have membership cards or t-shirts? Thanks for sharing though since I didn't know that voting for a civic politician now makes one part of a unique NATION. LOL

Polling firms have done research on the type of people that are part of Ford Nation. The statistics have been clear, that part of their coalition make up 25% of committed NDP supporters. If you don't believe that, then I guess you can stay in denial...

The "Ford Nation" are people who voted for a Toronto civic politician. It is not a fucking nation or even any kind of movement. Of course I believe that some former NDP voters can become Tory voters or Reformers but calling them part of a "Nation" headed by a third rate Central Canadian municipal hack is laughable. 

SeekingAPolitic...

I am just saying that status quo "stinks" here so if someone about challenges the status quo here they will get a hearing.  Your right it too simple that a hat or 2 will convince anyone.

Mighty Middle

kropotkin1951 wrote:

but calling them part of a "Nation" headed by a third rate Central Canadian municipal hack is laughable. 

If you went around Canada and showed two pictures (one of Doug Ford and one of Andrea Horwath) I would bet a majority would be able to identify Ford, but wouldn't have a clue who Andrea is.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

but calling them part of a "Nation" headed by a third rate Central Canadian municipal hack is laughable. 

If you went around Canada and showed two pictures (one of Doug Ford and one of Andrea Horwath) I would bet a majority would be able to identify Ford, but wouldn't have a clue who Andrea is.

Nope outside of the GTO the majority would not recognize either of them. The majority of the people in Vancouver would not recognize pictures of any of your current Ontario leaders and none of your city politicians.  The GTO is not the Centre of our Universe.

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:
 And The Donald is a rich real-estate investor.  How "GRR-GRR-GRR" angry did he have to pretend to be to be NOT the establishment? 

I don't think "the establishment" is all that happy with him. I think his supporters are somewhat fatalistic. They don't believe their situation is going to improve so they might as well take a chance on him. Even if they don't end up doing better it's a big FU to the establishment. To the Democrats who thought they could shove Clinton down their throats. 

As Seeking noted, when people are desperate they will give the unconventional a shot. 

Mr. Magoo wrote:
 

Then it's totally on the electorate to not keep falling for "I feel your pain".

I don't think Trump will win a second election. Obama let a lot of people down. Obama care was awesome and all but he still bailed out the banks and Wall Street and people still lost their homes. Clinton was not going to be better. 

Mr. Magoo wrote:
But how is it that the majority of the electorate can be on board with progressive ideals and actions, but at the same time be tuning out?  Wouldn't it be one or the other?  

Because they aren't on board with progressive ideals and actions in general. They are on board with corporations not being able to sue the government and other specifics. At the same time the economy is their number one priority. Conservatives have convinced people they are the best at running the economy, the Liberals are the best at running the economy but with a bit more empathy. The stereotype is the left is so bleeding heart it just wants to give everyone everything which we can't afford. 

Mr. Magoo wrote:
 Or, if my local progressive candidate is going on and on about some "Xir" and "Xim" identity politics, why can't I just remind myself that they support a fair wage, environmental standards, and decent labour laws? 

By focusing on everyones' injustices the left falls into the stereotype set up by the right that that they aren't "realistic", that they would pass laws that would harm the economy. The Trudeau platform included environmental standards. Wynne is raising minimum wage. People aren't paying that close attention. Elections are literally decided in the last two weeks. Everyone is in the running in Ontario. I bet Wynne wins again not because people are happy with her but because they aren't convinced anyone else would do better. 

Singh seems to be trying to change the conversation. I hope that is what he is doing by focusing on income inequality. 

Mighty Middle

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Nope outside of the GTO the majority would not recognize either of them. The majority of the people in Vancouver would not recognize pictures of any of your current Ontario leaders and none of your city politicians.  The GTO is not the Centre of our Universe.

You must of been under a rock during the Rob Ford crack/video scandal. When that was happening Doug Ford was on both the US and Canadian Networks DAILY. Not weekly, not monthly but DAILY.

You are talking about someone (Doug Ford) who has achieved international fame (rather infamous) with multiple appearnces on CNN and all the Canadian networks. With FOUR books written about him (including his own) and covers and covers of National dailies in Canada.

Andrea hasn't gotten even one-tenth of that coverage. If you wish be in denial about the strength of Ford Nation in Canada, then keep being in denial...

SocialJustice101

I've a heard a part of Doug Ford's speech and he has no other ideas besides tax cuts.   I don't understand how anyone still believes that "tax cuts" is somehow a cure-all.  Haven't we all been there before multiple times??  Tax cuts will not solve income inequality.  They will worsen it.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

I've a heard a part of Doug Ford's speech and he has no other ideas besides tax cuts.   I don't understand how anyone still believes that "tax cuts" is somehow a cure-all.  Haven't we all been there before multiple times??  Tax cuts will not solve income inequality.  They will worsen it.

I remember watching live coverage of a Ford Fest and the reporter asked a woman why she loved Ford. She replied "He is saving me so much money". When the reporter pressed to give a specifc of how she saved money, she couldn't answer the question.

SocialJustice101

The right-wing "populist" revolution is the biggest hoax of the 21st century.  Those people are supposedly upset that corporations are shipping jobs overseas, so they elect right-wing corporate politicians who will give corporations even more tax breaks and even more unrestricted power.    Bozo "logic".

Pogo Pogo's picture

Rob Ford maybe (and not in a good way).  But I have never heard Doug Ford's name mentioned once at any time in BC.  As for Toronto creating a model of populism.  There are lots of better examples in other provinces of populist politicians.  Perhaps you could check out Dave Barrett's thread.  Or Bill Vanderzalm for that matter. Probably Amor d'Cosmos (not really up on my history).  One province over would be Ralph Klein and to some extent Rachel Notley.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'm pretty certain Mighty Middle is terrytowel.

Hey,there's an Ontario provincial election coming up. Let's sludge through the sewer and rehash Rob Ford's faux populism from years before.

Provincial populism and federal populism are 2 different things. In Alberta it was Ralph Klein -- that populism began and ended inside Alberta's borders. That kind of populism would never fly in Quebec,Ontario or BC.

Populism is in reality,progressive and lefty. It's no wonder why Bernie Sanders is still America's most popular politician. His populism is even popular in some of America's reddest states. But the DNC decided to rig the pimaries in favour of Clinton who was most popular in her own head. The DNC's fraud in the election is what's to blame for Orange Hitler . His election win was sealed with his commercaial ads were very leftist. He almost sounded like Bernie,promising not to touch Medicare,Medicaid and Social Security,how he was going to tear up all the free trade deals and bring American jobs back to America. That's the moment I knew he had the election locked up. If he had a run where he was truthful of what a Trump government would look like,even Clinton would have mopped him off the floor, 

Bernie would have mopped the floor with him with the ease of stealing candy from an infant's mouth if he was rightfully given the Democrat leadership.

The fact that Canadians were lured by the irresistable populist message the Liberals ran on (but so far have done next to nothing with that popularity). Left leaning meat and potatoes,on the level politics and policies that proved to resonate with Canadians who clearly have an appetite for progressive change.

Dougie Ford is a populist that would spread out lf the GTA? lol..my first laugh. That Doug Ford is Canada's most popular poltician? lol. That he has the power,not only to easily win Ontario but would do so across Canada? lol

Another Ontario election and here comes people bringing in the very bottom of the sewer with dreams of Ford Nation. Dusted off the poltical waste bucket.

I believe the OP is tripping his balls off. LSD is a hell of a drug (just ask Doug)

voice of the damned

Smithee wrote:

In Alberta it was Ralph Klein -- that populism began and ended inside Alberta's borders. That kind of populism would never fly in Quebec,Ontario or BC.

Um, Mike Harris?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

LSD is a hell of a drug. (just ask Doug)

Doug was allegedly selling Hashish not LSD

Trust me. Ask him. Just because he sold hash doesnt mean he didn't screw around with other drugs. I cxould write a theseis on everyone from my generation,especially those,like myself,who sold nickel pieces at school to support my drug culture.

What's so outlandish about Dougie dropping acid? His brother was a crackhead ffs.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

Smithee wrote:

In Alberta it was Ralph Klein -- that populism began and ended inside Alberta's borders. That kind of populism would never fly in Quebec,Ontario or BC.

Um, Mike Harris?

D'oh! I forgot about that worm. He,was the same kind of ' populist' as Klein. Both were provincial leaders. On the federal reality,populism hinges oln policy. 95% of those policies would lean to the left. Nobody has to look further than Bernie Sanders. His ' left leaning agenda'  when explained explicitly were not only hugely popular in  blue states but red states as well. Go to youtube and search Bernie Town Hall in Trump Country,bingo,there's the proof.

And as I alluded to in that comment,the Liberals run a populist campaign. If the NDP had the right leader who was more interested in populism than 'balancing the books' ,they would have faired far better than the results they gained (lost..bigly)

A perfect Canadian example would be Jack Layton. Drive home your pllicies without talking down to everyone and talking in a relatable manner (not the normal ' I got an A in Public Speaking' timbre) and make your party stand out as the party that will get results done  for us measily 95% ers,

Dougie Ford is an old tool in the time chest with bell bottoms,pet rocks,parachute pants,jerry curls and Huey Lewis.

Ford nation WAS a thing. That was ultimately rejected and all their publicity was thanks to the drug addict and alcoholic follies of Rob Ford.

Anyway,Dougie has no chance now that Caroline Mulroney has thrown her hat in the mix. And as popular as the Albertans and Ontarians disasterous flavours of that time in the past were,both of them would have faceplanted running as Canadian PM.

Pondering

alan smithee wrote:
 The fact that Canadians were lured by the irresistable populist message the Liberals ran on (but so far have done next to nothing with that popularity). Left leaning meat and potatoes,on the level politics and policies that proved to resonate with Canadians who clearly have an appetite for progressive change.

Progressive change if it doesn't threaten the economy, jobs, or raise taxes on individuals. The right wing boogie men. Trudeau took it in the end but I will never forget that both Harper and Mulcair had a shot in 2015. 

alan smithee wrote:
A perfect Canadian example would be Jack Layton. Drive home your pllicies without talking down to everyone and talking in a relatable manner (not the normal ' I got an A in Public Speaking' timbre) and make your party stand out as the party that will get results done  for us measily 95% ers,

Yes. So far, sounds like Jagmeet Singh although we won't hear much on policy for awhile yet although we should get an idea of direction from the up-coming convention.  Not long now, it starts February 16th. 

josh

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Populism is inherently is left wing. Progressive ideas are popular not just to progressives but to Copenhagen chewin Conservatives. Do a poll with questions free of any partisanship that are direct and not made to dislead. All those deals are supported by a majority of Canadians.

I've heard this many times, and I continue to wonder why, then, the electorate that "loves" progressive ideas keeps voting for parties that don't.

And please, for the love of Gord, no facile answers like "the media" or "false consciousness" or "brainwashing, plain ansd simple!!!"

Depends on the electorate you're talking about and the ideas you're talking about.  In many instances they are not presented with a true alternative.  And, yes, money and media are factors no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

josh

Bernie would have mopped the floor with him with the ease of stealing candy from an infant's mouth if he was rightfully given the Democrat leadership.

I'm not so sure Sanders would have won.  For every "blue collar" voter he took back, he would have lost a suburban upper middle class voter who couldn't stomach Trump personally, but found Clinton unthreatening.  And anti-Semitism may have come out of the woodwork.  Not to mention that wall street and the corporate media would have pulled out all the stops to defeat him.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ontario - Montreal - Vancouver is profiled in the article below

You are aware that Montréal hasn't voted in a single Conservative MP since 1988 are you? And besides the fringes in the regions in and around Québec City,Doug Ford has a chance of winning Montréal as much I do being taken away by scantilly clad women riding in the ZZTop car.

SocialJustice101

Aren't suburbs wealthier on average than city dwellers?   They are not really the group that's  in "crisis".   For those groups that are crisis, con tax cuts will not make a difference.  Everything about that "study" screams rebranded con propaganda.

Mighty Middle

alan smithee wrote:

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ontario - Montreal - Vancouver is profiled in the article below

You are aware that Montréal hasn't voted in a single Conservative MP since 1988 are you? And besides the fringes in the regions in and around Québec City,Doug Ford has a chance of winning Montréal as much I do being taken away by scantilly clad women riding in the ZZTop car.

alan smithee wrote:

I believe the OP is tripping his balls off. LSD is a hell of a drug (just ask Doug)

You are writing this like I wrote the article. I'm posting the article that was written by the Canadian Press using research done by Ekos.

alan smithee wrote:

I'm pretty certain Mighty Middle is terrytowel.

If you are that confident report me to mods. Put up or shut.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

josh wrote:

Bernie would have mopped the floor with him with the ease of stealing candy from an infant's mouth if he was rightfully given the Democrat leadership.

I'm not so sure Sanders would have won.  For every "blue collar" voter he took back, he would have lost a suburban upper middle class voter who couldn't stomach Trump personally, but found Clinton unthreatening.  And anti-Semitism may have come out of the woodwork.  Not to mention that wall street and the corporate media would have pulled out all the stops to defeat him.

Clinton took almost no support in the suburbs-Trump won those areas overwhelmingly.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Depends on the electorate you're talking about and the ideas you're talking about.  In many instances they are not presented with a true alternative.

I would think that a modest -- or even a half-assed -- alternative would be preferable, though.

Maybe no candidate is going to institute (say) free transit, but if one of them promises to cut fares in half, shouldn't that count?

I'll be honest, though, I think the real reason that Canadians favour progressive ideas but don't vote for them is because we choose to only look at progressive fiscal ideas.  Taxing the rich, housing the homeless, free tuition, etc.  But once those are thoroughly blended in with unpopular moral ideas -- gay marriage, Muslim refugees, safe injection sites -- some folk can't abide the package deal.

I've said before, but I'll say again, that as much as Karl Marx got right, an unfortunate part of his legacy is convincing the left that everyone is as concerned with relationship to the means of production as they are.  So the left is still no closer to understanding how the poor can vote Conservative.  It's like there's this whole other thing that has nothing to do with labour or money.

SocialJustice101

Mr. Magoo, I think it just might be the opposite.   The corporate media keeps telling people that tolerance of different cultures and sexualities is okay, but socialism just "doesn't work."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ontario - Montreal - Vancouver is profiled in the article below

You are aware that Montréal hasn't voted in a single Conservative MP since 1988 are you? And besides the fringes in the regions in and around Québec City,Doug Ford has a chance of winning Montréal as much I do being taken away by scantilly clad women riding in the ZZTop car.

alan smithee wrote:

I believe the OP is tripping his balls off. LSD is a hell of a drug (just ask Doug)

You are writing this like I wrote the article. I'm posting the article that was written by the Canadian Press using research done by Ekos.

alan smithee wrote:

I'm pretty certain Mighty Middle is terrytowel.

If you are that confident report me to mods. Put up or shut.

Put up or shut up. What are you trying to say?

But I'm in no moood to fight. So I'll PUT up......with your Ford bullshit. For now.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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The corporate media keeps telling people that tolerance of different cultures and sexualities is okay

People don't decide whether "Adam and Steve" is OK based on the newspaper.

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but socialism just "doesn't work."

What success stories should the media talk about?  Venezuela?  The former Soviet Union?

I wouldn't mind more stories about social democracy, though.  Plenty of success there.  The same problem remains, though -- Sweden, for example, doesn't have the same moral history as, say, the U.S.  So even if a much higher standard of living is the reward, not criminalizing addicts is too steep a price to pay, for some.

Even here in pretty-good Canada we have people losing their minds over sex-ed in schools.  Do you think they're voting Conservative because some economist in the Globe and Mail defends laissez-faire capitalism?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The corporate media keeps telling people that tolerance of different cultures and sexualities is okay

People don't decide whether "Adam and Steve" is OK based on the newspaper.

Quote:
but socialism just "doesn't work."

What success stories should the media talk about?  Venezuela?  The former Soviet Union?

I wouldn't mind more stories about social democracy, though.  Plenty of success there.  The same problem remains, though -- Sweden, for example, doesn't have the same moral history as, say, the U.S.  So even if a much higher standard of living is the reward, not criminalizing addicts is too steep a price to pay, for some.

Even here in pretty-good Canada we have people losing their minds over sex-ed in schools.  Do you think they're voting Conservative because some economist in the Globe and Mail defends laissez-faire capitalism?

It's never acceptable, however, to pander to social conservatism(btw, most Canadians now support same-sex marriage and are more open to the other issues you raised such as drug legalization and injection sites than they once were).  What would you have had the Left do?  Stay the hell away from any support for social progressive ideas until those ideas already had majority support?

​It's not as though we'd have had a federal NDP government by now if only the party had stayed with Tommy Douglas' "they're mentally ill" stance on gays.  And there was no way to make a Left case for being hard-line "law and order" on drug policy.

SocialJustice101

Mr Magoo, sure they do.  Once you put human faces on the "others," they become human.  The same-sex marriage debate happened more than 10 years ago.   And more than two-thirds of the population support it.   I'm not sure why you brought up same-sex marriage as one of the supposed reasons for failures of the left, and for the rise of the right-wing populism.  Even the CPC is no longer campaigning against same-sex marriage.

And yes, social democracy, like in Scandivania, could use more exposure here.  They have the highest standard of living and highest level of happiness there.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Here's the basic problem:  The Fords took Toronto by running against "the elites".  How could they possibly be stopped by voting Liberal, when the Liberals are(and will always be)the PARTY of the Elites?

Ford-style "populism" is not going to be stopped by erasing every party left of Bay Street's notion of "the center" from the electoral map.  All that can do is trap everybody, for the rest of eternity, in a pointless, useless "elitist v. lynch mob" political division.

 

  
 

SocialJustice101

The concept of "elites" was twisted by right-wingers to essentially mean University educated, lawyers, intelligentsia, etc.   Those are NOT the kind of elites who are stealing from the middle class and the working poor.

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