We have no need for gun control. Sure we don't!!!

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Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
One person manages not to shoot up the people around her and has guns -- therefore guns are safe.

I think that generally, inanimate objects only become lethal when humans choose to use them lethally.  That goes for both guns and hammers.  And for that matter, cars, baseball bats, paring knives, lengths of pipe and bricks.

But I'm going one step further back, to the repeated claim that guns are designed and engineered "for murdering", and I'm wondering how it is that a ten year old child can use three different "killing guns" in as many minutes, and despite seemingly having mastered the aiming part, and the pulling of the trigger, and despite having at least two people only metres away from her, she didn't manage to murder either of them.

Did nobody have the heart to tell her that those guns weren't designed to shoot those clay targets?

And if a child could use all three of them safely, what excuse does any adult have (other than the excuses they give -- "I was mad", "he didn't signal his lane change", or "he dissed me")?

Quote:

Yesterday I saw a cat. It was black. I saw a second cat today. It was also black.

All cats are black.

Someone murdered someone with a gun somewhere.  Another person murdered someone with a gun somewhere.

Guns are for murder.

Another straw man for the straw man army.

Most of these Guns are for killing -- some perhaps animals  -- some perhaps military -- and yes some to kill people. Nobody said all guns are for murder.

Paladin1

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=11660403&utm_source=feed...

Story about a Canadian firearms company getting a rare apology from the RCMP for unfounded alligations about selling firearms to gangsters and a raid and seizure.   It looks like the CFO once again playing detective.

Part from the story that stuck out to me.

Quote:
Still two years later, one of the officers involved, Clarke, was charged with dealing drugs, theft of police property, breach of trust, and possession of a number of illegal restricted weapons.

As with the expose done a few months ago on TO area police charged with harassment, DUIs (including DUIs while on duty)being hidden by the department to avoid public embarassment,  incidents like this too are often hidden.

 

 

 

In other news,

http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/01/18/no-charges-against-off-duty-calgary...

the police officer who took his rifle home to clean and decided to stop at a local bar for some drinks and had the rifle, magazine and notebooks stolen (rifle was in a case but not properly secured) won't be charged.

Luckily the rifle was recovered without anyone being shot, unlike this pistol stolen out of this officers car.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/stolen-rcmp-gun-used-in-senseless...

Quote:
Two Winnipeg men are in custody after a firearm stolen from an off-duty RCMP officer's vehicle was used in a shooting that seriously injured a 16-year-old girl outside a Windsor Park convenience store.

 

 

 

 

Paladin1

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/la-loche-community-school-loc...

School in lockdown after shooting in La Loche, Sask.

 

Not many details yet.

Debater

The PM's Office confirms that it is now 5 people confirmed dead in SK shooting.

https://twitter.com/HuffPostCanada/status/690674232070672384

https://twitter.com/KatieSimpsonCTV/status/690674200533688320

Debater

PM Trudeau says he has spoken to the Premier of Saskatchewan, Minister of Public Safety and Commissioner of the RCMP.

https://twitter.com/CTVMercedes/status/690674167771897856

Debater

PM says 5 killed in #LaLoche, #Saskatchewan. 2 others in critical condition, accused in custody. #Trudeau briefed by #RCMP commissioner.

https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/690674875044925440

Debater

Statement by NDP MP Georgina Jolibois:

https://twitter.com/Devin_Heroux/status/690663384849616896

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

This is fascinating.

William Feldhoff, Barrie man with explosives-packed home, released from prison Thursday

Quote:
Decades later, in July 2012, William Feldhoff turned himself in to police.  Donald Feldhoff was charged with first-degree murder and his father was charged with being an accessory after the fact.

A subsequent search of the pair's home turned up a trove of homemade explosive devices, two backyard bunkers and unidentified chemicals, prompting the evacuation of 22 nearby homes for more than a week.

A total of 26 illegal firearms, 11,000 rounds of ammunition and more than 80 explosives were found, resulting in an additional 44 charges for both father and son and an additional 39 charges for firearm offences against William Feldhoff.

So, an accessory to first-degree murder, owner of homemade bombs, 11k rounds of ammo, and over two dozen illegal firearms.  39 charges against him and he gets 4 and a half years, and now he's free again.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

This is fascinating.

William Feldhoff, Barrie man with explosives-packed home, released from prison Thursday

So, an accessory to first-degree murder, owner of homemade bombs, 11k rounds of ammo, and over two dozen illegal firearms.  39 charges against him and he gets 4 and a half years, and now he's free again.

There really isn't a lot of detail in the story, but as someone who practised criminal law for a few years back in the 1970's, several things stick out for me. First, the father, who was the one released, is 78 years old. He is unlikely to pose much of a threat to the public at this point. Second, the crown would have needed his testimony to convict his son, the 59 year old murderer, who might well still be a danger to the public. Third, we don't know whether the guns, ammo and explosives were a shared interest of the 2 men, or mainly the younger one. All in all, I don't think a plea bargain with the old man for a 4.5 year sentence was particularly out of line.

Paladin1

Correct me if I'm wrong but the plea bargin going rate for someone in possession of a restricted or prohibited firearm is 1 year in jail or $5000 fine.

For someone found guilty it's minimum 3 years jail, maximum 10 years jail?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
First, the father, who was the one released, is 78 years old. He is unlikely to pose much of a threat to the public at this point.

Unlike four years ago?

We might all feel safer if it were the explosive devices that were 78 years old.

Quote:
Third, we don't know whether the guns, ammo and explosives were a shared interest of the 2 men, or mainly the younger one.

It may not be rock solid, but the news piece does note "an additional 44 charges for both father and son and an additional 39 charges for firearm offences against William Feldhoff".  That does kind of make it sound like the additional 39 charges were for father but not son. 

If the charges were for both, wouldn't they just say "83 charges for both men"?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the plea bargin going rate for someone in possession of a restricted or prohibited firearm is 1 year in jail or $5000 fine.

For someone found guilty it's minimum 3 years jail, maximum 10 years jail?

I'm sorry, but I have no knowledge of current practise. I was really mostly commenting on the accessory to murder charge, which I would consider the most serious one.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Third, we don't know whether the guns, ammo and explosives were a shared interest of the 2 men, or mainly the younger one.

It may not be rock solid, but the news piece does note "an additional 44 charges for both father and son and an additional 39 charges for firearm offences against William Feldhoff".  That does kind of make it sound like the additional 39 charges were for father but not son. 

If the charges were for both, wouldn't they just say "83 charges for both men"?

Yes, this makes sense. It doesn't change my general opinion of the sentence. I am assuming without knowing that the father was lawyered up when he turned himself in. It is a bit similar to the Karla Homolka plea bargain in that she deserved a greater sentence, but without her testimony, convicting Paul Bernardo would have been much more difficult (at the time the bargain was made, which was before the video tapes were known to the crown).

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Well, I'm not at all dismissing what you're saying -- though, for the record, I still can't believe that the Crown struck a deal with Homolka in exchange for "whatever the fuck she felt like disclosing" rather than for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".

I'm just thinking that even if we pretended that the accessory to murder charge didn't exist, and the explosives charges didn't exist, buddy got about six weeks per illegal firearms charge.  Is that supposed to be our deterrent against owning "killing guns"?? 

That's like saying that if you drive drunk, you might face a $60 fine, or see your car impounded for 12 hours.

Paladin1

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/father-of-n-b-shooting-victim-wants-new-debat...

Quote:

RIVERVIEW, N.B. -- A New Brunswick man whose young daughter was gunned down in a robbery is calling for a renewed debate on firearm control and the federal long-gun registry.

Ron Davis said Tuesday he's concerned that military-style guns sold legally in Canada will end up in the hands of the wrong people.

"I have nothing against hunting rifles, that's fine," the 74-year-old Riverview man said in an interview. "It's the weapons that are available and legal that have nothing to do with hunting that concerns me most. We're just asking for another disaster to happen."

 

Another instance of someone looking in the wrong places.

His daughter was killed with a handgun; all legally owned handguns are already registered in Canada.

We see the mantra that hunting rifles are okay and military rifles are bad. It's not that simple. For example two iconic "hunting guns" are the Remington 700 bolt action rifle and Remington 870 pump action 12gague shotgun. 

Probably thee most popular hunting rifle & shotgun combo in North America, nothing to do with the military right?  The Remington 700 rifle has been the top sniper rifle used by the military and police since the mid 60's. Only very recently has it begun to be replaced. Likewise the remington 870 shotgun is the primary shotgun used by the military and police since 1950. It's still used by the military and police.

I believe people automatically assume that something used for hunting is somehow less dangerous or deadly than something considered a military firearm. It's misinformation people fall for.   It's not true. Most "hunting rifles" fire a heavier bullet capable of both travelling father and inflicting greater physical damage than common "military" guns.  Typical hunting rifles are more accurate and reach father than the firearms police are using.

In the context of a school shooter, someone planning an ambush or a random shooting a hunting rifle is far more dangerous.

 

 

Paladin1

O_o

Paladin1

I've been considering writing this for a little while but another story in the news sort of reaffirmed what I was curious about so I decided to ask this.

 

Normally when there is a mass shooting (or significant shooting in the news I guess you could say) two things basically happen. 

Gun owners take to social media crying about how the liberals will use this to swoop in and steal their guns. Woe is them, how could this happen to them. Gun control advocates take to social media and immediately push for stricter stronger gun control. The name and type of gun gets brought up. Was the gun registered, did the shooter have a licence.  Shooting in Moncton BC is just one example. What gun did he use. Where did he get it. What was he wearing. What video games did he play. The RCMP even launched a silly inquiry into automatic weapons because he said he thought of trying to make one.

 

When the shooting in La Loche Saskatchewan happened gun owners reacted exactly as expected. Oh great, another shooting, just what we need, there go our guns! (very ignorant reaction IMO)  What was missing for the most part was the expected reaction from gun control groups. They seemed all but silent.  No calls for greater gun control. No demands for a registry. No talk about bushmaster or glock or remington.  The reaction in the firearm community to that was one of confusion. Why was that shooting different? A lot of people have said if the same thing happened in Toronto there would be a different reaction.

Fast forward to Feb 14th. Another shooting, this time in Lac-Simon,Quebec.  Among the victims is an aboriginal police officer.  It's only been two days but the reaction is learning towards the La Loche shooting. No talk about baning semiautomatics, what gun was used, demands for a registry etc.. (no talk yet I should say but I suspect ity won't happen).

 

So why the discrepancy in reactions? Even reactions in rabble.ca seem to be muted. No talk about killing guns. Centeralized lockups. Banning semi-autos. No one seems to want to discuss it.

The popular belief in the firearms community is that it's due to being on First Nations territory which makes it uncomfortable or unacceptable to talk about negatively. Is there another more logical or accurate explination? Would reactions have been different if the same shooting in La Loche took place in Ottawa or Toronto?  I can't think of another explination for the different reaction.

Hurtin Albertan

What was this Quebec shooting?  The police officer?

Anyways, my guess is it has more to do with the weapons used.  La Loche was a shotgun, if the Quebec shooting was the police officer I couldn't find any news articles that mentioned the weapon used, but it would be a fairly safe bet that it was a shotgun too.

For some reason the anti-gun types don't seem to mind shotguns as much.  You can still legally own shotguns in the UK, even though a shotgun was one of the weapons used in the 2010 Cumbria shootings. 

On an unrelated note, I'm sure you'll all be happy to know I have been somewhat able to finally get my hands on an FN FAL.  Had to pay a ridiculous amount of money for it, but I am now the proud owner of a deactivated Australian L1A1.  It came with a bayonet too, so even though it can't actually shoot, at least it is theoretically more useful than a paperweight.

Paladin1

Here's a story on the recent Quebec shootings and another shooting in Northern Ontario from yesterday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-police-officer-kille...

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2016/02/17/sagamok-shooting-ends-in-attemp...

I suppose it could have to do with the weapon used. I haven't seen a definite confirmation of what firearm was used in La Loche, I've read shotgun and also read rifle. That still seems like a stretch for the silence though.

Cumbria is a good example of why targeting certain firearm types is a waste of time. The shooter used a double barrel shotgun and murdered 12 people and injured 11 others.

 

I've never held an FN but I know they have a pretty large cult following. I heard the recoil was brutal.

 

Here's a poorly writen article about guns in Canada but it does talk about Justin Trudeau recognizing the amount of illegal firearms coming in to Canada from the US and looking at ways to combat the smuggling. It sounds like a pretty awesome move if the regulations the article mentions centers around catching smugglers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-government-stiffens-fi...

Hurtin Albertan

The FN was a heavy rifle to begin with, and it had a very good adjustable gas system.  The dial goes from 1 to 10 on the gas system.

If it's set too low you'll get failures to eject, if you dial it in just right there is minimal recoil.  I guess you could also crank it up to 10 and shoot away, and if that wasn't enough for you, you could take the gas plug out and put it in backwards and tremble before the awesome punishing recoil of a scaled down .30-06 cartridge.

In Vernon, as a young army cadet, I watched a soldier demonstrate firing the rifle the usual way, and he also held it out at arm's length with one hand and fired it like it was a giant handgun.  And I don't remember him being a huge muscular person or anything, just a normal looking person.

We also got to watch the army soldiers fire off a bunch of rounds through the C2 machine gun version of the FN, but that's another story.

I could go on for hours about the right arm of the free world.

 

Hurtin Albertan

Pretty sure in Cumbria the shooter also used a .22 rifle of some sort.  It's a very unique mass shooting in a lot of ways if anybody wants to talk about that.

NorthReport

So how did the suspect get his weapon and of course neighbours and people who know him will say the usual that he was just a normal guy.

Getting back to Uber maybe they might want to redesign their job application form. And by-the-way, if your Uber driver says he wants to make a stop along the way to get something out of the trunk, or whatever, you might want to quickly find another mode of transportation.

The suspect

 

What we know:

Two hours after the final shooting, police arrested Dalton, 45, without incident in downtown Kalamazoo. Police also seized a weapon from his car.

The gun, a semi-automatic pistol, according to Getting, seems to match shell casings at the three shooting scenes, he said.

Jason Brian Dalton was arrested in the Kalamazoo shooting rampage.Jason Brian Dalton was arrested in the Kalamazoo shooting rampage.

Dalton was driving for Uber the night of the shootings and even picked up and dropped off passengers between attacks, a source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN.

Matt Mellen told CNN affiliate WWMT-TV he rode in Dalton's car just before the shootings started.

"We got about a mile from my house, and he got a telephone call. After that call, he started driving erratically, running stop signs," Mellen told the station.


WOOD-TV reported
 that another man told the station he had sought an Uber ride as a safer alternative to walking with a killer on the loose, only to end up apparently in Dalton's car.

"I kind of jokingly said to the driver, 'You're not the shooter, are you?' He gave me some sort of a 'no' response ... shook his head," the station quoted the man, whom it identified only as Derek, as saying.

"I said, 'Are you sure?' And he said, 'No, I'm not, I'm just tired.' And we proceeded to have a pretty normal conversation after that."

Uber's chief security officer told CNN that Dalton passed a background check. Police also said Dalton did not have a criminal record.

"For all intents and purposes, he was your average Joe," the public safety chief said. "This was random."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/22/us/kalamazoo-michigan-what-we-know-and-don...

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
So how did the suspect get his weapon and of course neighbours and people who know him will say the usual that he was just a normal guy.

I'm also curious about the weapon.  Did background checks fail?  Was it bought out of the trunk of a car in a Walgreen's parking lot?

And yes, friends and neighbours do seem to always say "he was a normal guy".  I'm dying to see the first time they say "Oh, we all knew he was planning mass murder... he was always saying 'I'm planning mass murder' -- he couldn't shut about about it".

NorthReport

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that someone who commits a mass killing would usually exhibit some kind of unusual or disturbing behavior before the event.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

What kind of unusual?  What should we all be looking out for?

Paladin1

NorthReport wrote:

So how did the suspect get his weapon and of course neighbours and people who know him will say the usual that he was just a normal guy.

The neighbours in the San Bernardino California shooting noticed some weird stuff and had suspicions but didn't say anything for fear of being singled out as racist.

bekayne

Mr. Magoo wrote:

And yes, friends and neighbours do seem to always say "he was a normal guy".  I'm dying to see the first time they say "Oh, we all knew he was planning mass murder... he was always saying 'I'm planning mass murder' -- he couldn't shut about about it".

John David Stutts

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
John David Stutts

LOL!  I'm embarrassed that I had to Google that, but I remember laughing pretty hard way back when.

Quote:
The neighbours in the San Bernardino California shooting noticed some weird stuff and had suspicions but didn't say anything for fear of being singled out as racist.

Maybe some of these outbursts could be prevented if we had a weirdo snitch line.

"So you say he keeps to himself?"

"Yes, ma'am."

"And he seems fascinated by ninjas?"

"Very."

"Approximately how many Atheism bumper stickers are on his crappy car?"

 

bekayne

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
John David Stutts

LOL!  I'm embarrassed that I had to Google that, but I remember laughing pretty hard way back when.

Paladin1

Councler Jody Mitic bought a couple pistols and posted a picture of them on Twitter, Susan Sherring thought it was bad timing.  Lots of backlash against her and last time I looked at the online poll being run 75% of the respondents supported Jody.

One of the more dumber angles was from the police suggesting it made him a bigger

 

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/03/15/sherring-gun-tweet-bad-timing-for-co...

Quote:

 Just days after a shooting death on Jasmine Crescent, the third killing on that street in less than a year, Innes Coun. Jody Mitic was tweeting about buying guns.

Perhaps not the most sensitive of timing.

“I got @ALANNAHGILMORE and I matching @sigsauerinc P320’s. Because 2 is 1 & 1 is none. #NoZombies #pewpew,” Mitic’s tweet read of the guns he bought for himself and his wife.

That’s right, nothing says lovin’ like a P320.

According to the SIG Sauer website, the P320 is a “polymer-framed service pistol designed from the ground up with the input of law enforcement officers.”

Aside from the timing of the tweet, there’s a real danger in tweeting out that you own guns.

It’s just an invitation for trouble.

And that worries Ottawa Police Chief Charles Bordeleau.

“There are laws that govern lawful gun ownership. There’s storage laws that exist. I’m not against legitimate collectors, but they’ve got to follow the laws and having firearms in your residence increases the likelihood of your house being targeted. If you’re advertising it, that’s probably not the best thing to do,” Bordeleau said in an interview with the Sun on Monday.

No one likes to talk badly about their colleagues. Bordeleau is no different.

But as a city councillor, Mitic has a leadership role in the community, one he appears reluctant to accept.

There’s no doubt that around the council chamber, Mitic is a bit of a bull in a china shop.

That is often refreshing. He doesn’t play the games others around the council table often consume themselves with.

Thank goodness for that.

Good on him, good for his residents.

But as a councillor, he has become a city leader, whether he likes that or not.

Mitic was clearly none too happy talking to the Sun Tuesday about the chief’s concerns.

He said the guns were a gift for him and his wife — meant to be for Christmas — but he just recently got them in the mail.

“So I posted something about a piece of property. Jasmine is a police matter. I’m a responsible, legal permit-carrying gun owner,” he said. “I didn’t see a link between the two.”

He said the guns are safe, locked without ammunition in his home. He vehemently denies they are posing any danger.

“If my guns were stolen, yeah, well, I mean, I don’t know, I guess that’s one way to look at. I am not putting anyone in danger.

“Look, I have zero respect for criminals.”

Ottawa Police Services Board Chair Eli El-Chantiry hadn’t seen the tweet either.

“But one thing I know for sure, more guns never make anything safer,” said El-Chantiry, also the councillor for West Carleton-March.

“To be honest, I always say there are (some things) you need to make sure you don’t post on social media. Sure you can tell from my attitude what I think. It’s like I always tell people — not to put on social media when you’re going away.

“I don’t want to say anything, not about him as a colleague,” El-Chantiry said.

And then there’s a big, long sigh.

“Even if he bought it, it doesn’t mean he has to announce it — makes him more of a target, so why would he?”

With five homicides already in this year alone, El-Chantiry is fighting far bigger battles that questionable tweets.

But in all honesty, it would help if his colleagues shared the load of the city’s fight.

 

 

[Should be noted El-Chantiry sure is fighting a bigger battle, like being asked to resign by the police union (whom are backed by the mayor)

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/03/18/police-board-mayor-backs-chair-after...

 

Jody's response.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/coun-mitic-fires-back-on-gun-di...

 

Unionist

Surprised the media didn't mention that Jody lost both legs when he stepped on a landmine in Afghanistan. Also his father (Hemi) left the CAW when he realized that he didn't have enough support to succeed Buzz Hargrove as president - the hand-picked successor was Ken Lewenza.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

"I ain't afeared of bein' shot" say rural respondents.

I wonder, though.  What if the government were to go ahead and severely restrict guns in urban areas?  I'd be fine with it, but what, specifically, shall we do with someone caught with a gun in an urban area?  Beyond taking it away from them and giving them a scoldy look?

This would only work if having an illegal gun is more of a personal liability than not having one.  What penalty should we impose on people who pack heat anyway?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

First offense, probation. Second offense, deuce less a day. Third offense, five years. With judicial discretion for particular circumstances, of course.

lagatta4

Survivors and families of the Polytechnique, Dawson College and Québec Mosque shootings advocating for stronger gun laws. Photo shows weapons definitely not used for duck or deer hunting...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gun-massacre-liberal-government-laws-1.4...

Hurtin Albertan

Hard to tell from the picture, tried to zoom in but the fine print wasn't really legible.

The one on the left is a Kel-Tec of some sort, can't tell what the model number is supposed to be so I can't really say if it is chambered in .308 or .223, either way it is quite possibly a non-restricted firearm.

The one on the right is a K & M Arms M17S-C, .308, 20" barrel, and a non-restricted firearm.

I would have guessed they were both Restricted firearms in .223, who knew?  Anyways, if you haven't read all of this thread it is noteworthy pointing out their non-restricted status, as non-restricteds currently don't have to be registered outside of la belle province, and they do not require an authorization to transport (ATT) before you can haul them out to an actual gun range.  Heck, you can shoot them anywhere it is legal to shoot any other non-restricted firearms.

Maybe I'll have to update my Christmas wish list now.  Learn something new every day.

Hurtin Albertan

Forgot to add, a non-restricted semiautomatic rifle chambered in .308 and fitted with a 5 round detachable box magazine would be very well suited to deer hunting.  Not so much for duck hunting.

Hurtin Albertan

There is a pretty good discussion of guns in urban areas in this very topic, starting at around post #172.  It goes off on a tangent or 2 and then gets back to urban guns and urban gun bans around post #220 or so.  Not sure how long the urban gun discussion goes on for. 

Unionist

Unionist, on Jan. 15, 2016 wrote:

1. All firearms should be banned from all municipal areas (appropriately defined). No brainer. Anyone caught in possession of one should then be subject to very nasty penalties.

2. All private ownership of firearms should ultimately be abolished. You want a gun outside a town or city to hunt or shoot for sports, you rent it from a state monopoly. Yeah, that means the government owns all the guns, and we the people can't defend ourselves against the commies any more.

3. Exception: Indigenous people who have hereditary hunting rights throughout the land which is theirs.

Or - we can debate what calibre and model of guns should be allowed. And we can join the Americans in talking about "background checks", as if people are the problem.

People are not the problem. Gun-profiting sickos in aggressive imperialist societies are the problem.

People are the solution.

 

I've been pushing these points for years. Very happy to see that #1 is finally being taken seriously by some of the powers that be. Didn't really expect that to happen so soon, quite frankly.

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