Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MPP Bill Murdoch says it's time Toronto separates from the rest of Ontario.

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Todrick of Chat...
Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MPP Bill Murdoch says it's time Toronto separates from the rest of Ontario.

TO should go, MPP says

 

"Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MPP Bill Murdoch says it's time Toronto separates from the rest of Ontario.

"The province is run totally by the mentality that is coming out of Toronto. The government of the day can't get anything done because they are overruled by Toronto," said the maverick MPP.

The suggestion was sparked by a discussion at Saturday's roundtable in Chepstow among the Bruce County Federation of Agriculture and federal, provincial and municipal politicians over Queen's Park's lack of understanding when it comes to dealing with coyotes in rural Ontario."

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Sounds more like they should be expelled

[tosses a Nyah bomb at Maysie, then runs away]

Todrick of Chat...

Bigkitty, I believe you are onto something. I believe that being expelled from Ontario would be in the best interests of all citizens of Grey and Bruce counties.

We could set up toll booths at all the entry points into the county, and charge people coming from the GTA access to our rural areas.

Stockholm

Has anyone asked Hudak to comment on this or if he plans any disciplinary action against Murdoch?

remind remind's picture

Hmmm, weird I had thought they should be kicked out of Canada, as opposed to just Ontario..... :D ;)

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Gotta give Toronto one thing, they don't elect many Cons.  Tongue out

 

Too many Liberanos perhaps but hey, you lefties should look at bagkitty.  [nyah] 

Webgear

I wonder how many people does it take to start your own country?

Maybe we should all start our own countries or city states.

robbie_dee

I think its a great idea. Toronto has certain needs (i.e. public transit, social housing) which, while not unique, are qualitatively different than most of the rest of the province because of how big and densely populated Toronto is.  Provincial status would give Toronto the taxing power (income, sales) to pay for these things, or to negotiate directly with the federal government for appropriate transfer payments. Personally rather than just making Toronto a separate province I'd prefer if some more general quasi-provincial "city state" status could be created under the Constitution, which could then potentially be offered to the National Capital Region, Vancouver and/or Montreal if they want it, too.

EDITED TO ADD: The toll booths comment above appears to have been added in jest, but I actually think something like that would make a lot of sense, too, in order to ensure that commuters who work in Toronto but live in the suburbs still pay their fare share for city roads and services and the like.

Webgear

Bigkitty what is a nyah bomb?

I will recognize your Kingship if you grant me the title of Squire of Lindwood.  I am not greedy, I just want 50 hides of land, and to be a freeman.

I notice the ONDP stated that no one is allowed to leave Ontario (Toronto Star article). I guess freedom is only a word.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Great idea Webgear.... until the inevitable nyah bomb race starts.

Personally I am holding out for a reestablishment of the divine right of bagkittys kings... and if that ever happens, expulsion will be the the least of Toronto's worries.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Well Webgear, you pretty much have to see it in action to understand. I suggest you go through this thread where Maysie launches the first one, and I cry foul. (it also helps to remember they are normally delivered in a sequence of six, to a school yard melody, with a long drawn out fifth "nyah": " nyah, nyah, nyah nyah, nyah.... nyah" -- I hope that makes things clearer for you)

Farmpunk

Perhaps Murdoch is using a bit of tongue-in-cheekiness to pry some discussion out of the people's elected officials, and the departments that govern the province.  He should have possibly stuck with making fun of Toronto's wind turbine and suggesting legislation to pop the things up in any un-used urban spaces in the GTA.   

The coyote thing has me confused.  I thought that counties could set up their own regs as far as controlled hunts and bounties. 

Why would Hudak punish Murdoch.  Hudak should be asked for a comment, but if he dumps on Murdoch that sends a weird signal to the rural ridings that are currently PC and tend to favour anti-GTA sentiment.

Michelle

I actually don't have much of a problem with this proposal.  I think there would probably be advantages for Torontonians AND non-Torontonians.

Michelle

Rosie Dimanno weighs in.

Normally her columns are unmitigatingly offensive, but this one leaves me more bewildered than anything.

Caissa

Toronto could be our own little San Marino.

Farmpunk

I enjoy the GTA.  I don't want to live there, but it's a fun place, and occasionally I feel the urge to go to the big city and lose myself, the stereotypical story.  I like people, and I love food, and the GTA has plenty of both (plus a rather large population of women).

Really, the cities and the countryside of southern ontario need to work more closely together instead of setting artificial boundaries or igniting the same old rural-urban arguments.

It's clearly a demographic challenge as well as lifestyle.  The GTA is certainly more diverse ethnically than the countryside and will only continue to grow in that fashion, and that fuels all kinds of redneck racism.  I really hope Murdoch\Hudak and the PC party does not play on this aspect of the discussion for political gain.

 

Life, the unive...

Murdoch was at a meeting of the federation of agriculture and was playing to the home crowd.  Coyotes in Bruce and Grey have become a serious problem and Murdoch was just trying to juxtapose the reaction to them in rural Ontario and Toronto.  Where if you remember one proposed solution was to live trap them and then send them out into 'the country'  were they are killing livestock, wild turkeys, rabbits and pets.

Webgear

Rosie Dimanno is a scum bag, a total fuckwad. I hope to never see her in Grey County.

 

"In fact, bet there aren't half as many guns in Bruce County as there are in Scarborough. Just saying."

 

Another useless reporter making shit up.

Life, the unive...

Michelle wrote:

Rosie Dimanno weighs in.

Normally her columns are unmitigatingly offensive, but this one leaves me more bewildered than anything.

If this was about anyone other than rural people this column would be condemned as a piece of classist, or if similar things were said about people of colour racist trash.  It is truly offensive.

TheEtobian

Rosie Dimanno and her ilk are why people hate Toronto. Everytime I read any of her articles I just get angry, this one more then ever.I mean look the title. "Hick MPP can have all rural ontario" last time I checked Toronto isn't the only city in province. Dimanno is a fucking tool. I am a utterly ashamed she speaks for this city.

Michelle

Yeah, it totally was.  I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't offensive - I think I said that wrong.  What I meant is, usually I'm just offended by her article, but this time I was just confused because she was kind of rambling all over the place and didn't really make any coherent points in it, whether offensive or otherwise.  Sorry if it sounded like I was giving her a pass on it.

Don't forget, most of us Torontonians weren't born here, I don't think!  So we're not generally delighted either at the suggestion that our former non-Toronto selves were "hicks" or that friends and family we left behind in our smaller towns, cities, and rural areas are "hicks".

Caissa

And some of us born in Toronto have migrated to the hinterlands.

Stargazer

Webgear wrote:

Rosie Dimanno is a scum bag, a total fuckwad. I hope to never see her in Grey County.

 

"In fact, bet there aren't half as many guns in Bruce County as there are in Scarborough. Just saying."

 

Another useless reporter making shit up.

 

hear hear webgear! I completely agree with you. Yuck! What a horrible person. But if you guys don't want her, what the hell are we to do with her? Perhaps we can ship her off to Alberta to sit somewhere with a nice laptop and no windows.

I am about the only person I know who was actually born in Toronto - West General Hospital to be exact. Lived in Scarborough growing up, moved downtown where I loved it, and am now back in Scarborough living in what people around here refer to as "the slum". For all my emotional attachment to Scarborough I would much prefer living back downtown again.

Life, the unive...

By the way I love Toronto and almost all Torontonians (DiMano now being a notable exception) and think Murdoch is quite wrong.  Toronto is a cultural and economic driver of this great province.  Without it we in rural Ontario would be much poorer and not just in monetary terms.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Hog Town is as Hog Town does.

I grew up in Northern Ontario and can attest to the fact that TO is hated just as much there as the CoU is in BC.  Interestingly I thought you had to get at least north of Parry Sound before the real hatred for Hog Town shows up.

Michelle

Yeah, much south of that, and you've got all the Torontonians on vacation and transplanted Torontonian retirees. :D

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Stargazer wrote:

[...]hear hear webgear! I completely agree with you. Yuck! What a horrible person. But if you guys don't want her, what the hell are we to do with her? Perhaps we can ship her off to Alberta to sit somewhere with a nice laptop and no windows.[...]

How I wish other babblers would stop suggesting using Alberta as a dumping grounds for their waste (toxic and otherwise). Then again, from what I have read about Central Canada... "shipping it out" seems to be their solution for most waste management issues.

Tongue out

Webgear

Coyote(s) attacked a man last night in Dundalk, Ontario (Southern Grey County). It was likely one captured from Toronto and the release in the Grey County.

 

 

 

Tommy_Paine

Yeah, my friend from Dundalk had it on her facebook page.

 

http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2494060

 

"The man, not realizing the animal was wild, approached it and was bitten in the face. The animal left the property, entering the woods," a police new release said.

 

The Coyote "problem" certainly isn't a rural/urban issue.   A woman and her dog were attacked here last year, around Spettigue's pond-- my childhood backyard-- which is very much inside London.  

 

The problem is us.  There's a newish animal in the neighborhood, and we have to learn a few things.  The Coyotes already have thier shit together.  Here's one rule:   Don't lead with your face when approaching a dog, known or unknown.

 

 

Michelle

I'm not sure how Torontonians are to blame for coyotes...where does that come from?

I can see how trapping them and then releasing them in a rural area could be considered dumping them somewhere.  But I don't really get what else you can do.  It's a bad thing to release wild animals back into the wild?  You can be sure that the coyotes weren't born in Toronto, so obviously we're not just creating coyotes to plague rural folks with.

What's the solution?  Kill them?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I saw a documentary awhile back that said that one of their survival strategies is that they breed at a far faster rate with more pups when they feel threatened in their environment.  If they are not being hunted and have enough food they stop breeding as often and have fewer pups.  Seems the best strategy is to learn to live with them and make sure there is better food for them than your cat or little dog. Eradicating them while not only morally reprehensible apparently doesn't ever work well and has potentially worse unforeseen outcomes..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzB0UL5qV18

Tommy_Paine

 

I think the Dimanno piece was intended as tongue in cheek, and I think there were a few comments that were on the mark that way.  But a few displayed the kind of ignorance/arrogance we more often ascribe to some pundits on Faux News.

Dimanno isn't aware that Toronto already exports it's garbage to rural Ontario, and that decisions or non decisions of the GTA council do in fact impact rural areas.   For example: if windmills are such a good idea, how come there aren't any on the Scarberian Bluffs? or all along the lakeshore, for that matter?   

 

Murdoch and Dimanno are cut from the same cloth.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Michelle wrote:

I'm not sure how Torontonians are to blame for coyotes...where does that come from?

I can see how trapping them and then releasing them in a rural area could be considered dumping them somewhere.  But I don't really get what else you can do.  It's a bad thing to release wild animals back into the wild?  You can be sure that the coyotes weren't born in Toronto, so obviously we're not just creating coyotes to plague rural folks with.

What's the solution?  Kill them?

Actually they likely were born in Toronto like every other city in North America.  I remember talking to my neighbour about raccoons in the garbage and he was suggesting they be trapped and moved to the wilds and I thought that was hilarious since they and their ancestors had always lived in that part of Burnaby.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzB0UL5qV18

Tommy_Paine

Michelle wrote:

I'm not sure how Torontonians are to blame for coyotes...where does that come from?

I can see how trapping them and then releasing them in a rural area could be considered dumping them somewhere.  But I don't really get what else you can do.  It's a bad thing to release wild animals back into the wild?  You can be sure that the coyotes weren't born in Toronto, so obviously we're not just creating coyotes to plague rural folks with.

What's the solution?  Kill them?

 

ARG.

 

Maybe Torontonians should get to know their city.  There's at least three river valleys, the Humber, the Don and I think the Rouge?  And what's the one that goes through Oakville?  Credit?   Anyway.  These wild coyotes are living, appropriately enough IN A WILD AREA IN SIDE TORONTO.  

And yes I know I'm yelling.

 

So, I suggest people living next to those areas have pets that either stay in coyote free zones, or can handle themselves if they run into a coyote.    There's a reason some people refer to little dogs as "musky bait"  you know.

 

 

Life, the unive...

Michelle wrote:

I'm not sure how Torontonians are to blame for coyotes...where does that come from?

I can see how trapping them and then releasing them in a rural area could be considered dumping them somewhere.  But I don't really get what else you can do.  It's a bad thing to release wild animals back into the wild?  You can be sure that the coyotes weren't born in Toronto, so obviously we're not just creating coyotes to plague rural folks with.

What's the solution?  Kill them?

Urban coyotes moved to rural areas are much more dangerous than rural born and rasied ones.  Urban coyotes get a taste for 'human' food in a way they don't in rural areas.  Add that to the familarity they get to humans, being more used to their smells and noises and you end up with a very bold, very dangerous animal.  Coyote attacks on wildlife, livestock and pets are way, way up.  When I was younger you hardly heard of such a thing, now every year you hear of a great many attacks.

So yes the answer is to shoot them, if urban areas want to get rid of them, not dump the problem on rural areas.  If urban areas want to deal with their problem wildlife in some other way, go ahead, but please stop sending them out here.  And yes those coyotes will have been born and raised for generations in Toronto, probably there a probably a number of coyotes not far from where you live, no matter what part of the city that might be.  More so along some of the 'greenbelts'

Farmpunk

Coyotes were rare twenty years ago in my area - Haldimand-Norfolk.  Several of the oldest hunters I know - with around 60 years experience hunting in this land - have all kinds of stories of the ebb and flow of wildlife.  Coyotes in big numbers are new to them. 

They're being hunted right now.  The issue Murdoch is referencing, as far as I can tell, is whether or not to hunt more and whether to incentivize the kill but he's mixed that up with a bunch of good ole boy commentary.

I haven't seen anyone calling for a full death sentence cast on coyotes.  Got any links Kropotkin?

Toronto should deal with its own coyote population.  And with no predators and lots of food, I really doubt they'll do anything but grow in numbers.  I think the "catch and dump" is simply an idea and is not being put into practice.

That's for the GTA to deal with.  Murdoch is, I think, suggesting that GBO should be able to decide its own control measures.  Like hunting, trapping.  That's probably the best solution, because farmers could go over the top left to deal with coyote problems on an individual basis.

I like Kropotkin and TP's thinking: Toronto is wild.  Places like Milton back right into the protected areas of Halton. 

There was an great interview about coyotes on CBC radio in the winter.  The show, the Current I think, spoke with a coyote expert who says bigger coyotes are moving into our area.  The smaller, traditional coyote for southern ontario was small, like a big cat, 25 pounds.  A much larger animal is moving into the area and will eventually there will be bigger coyotes, with a bred in ontario demeanor. 

No question the reintroduction of the wild turkey, and the subsequent population explosion, has helped the coyotes own population expand. 

  

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

No coyotes here that I know of, but we have foxs and black bears. They tend to mind their own business.Laughing

Tommy_Paine

Well, not only that but they have likely been pullling down young, old, sick and injured deer, or scavenging them.    And, we've increased wetlands either by accident (beavers making a comeback because there's little market for pelts) or design, creating lots of living space for ducks and geese and other marsh birds.   I mean, we created the menu for coyotes and more predators.   And, personally, I like it. 

The very same area where the Dundalk man offered his face to the Coyote to bite-- or wild dog, no one is sure which-- had a young black bear wander through... two springs ago.   And yes, there's photographic evidence, and I saw the tracks for myself.

The wild turkey introduction is remarkable.  I can't find the site anymore, but the actual introduction was quite small, and even the ministry was astounded as to how quickly they spread.  Heck, I've had a wild turkey in my yard here in London.  So, the coyotes will move in, their population will explode for a while, untill the turkeys and deer populations get smaller and a bit smarter and there will be a new equilllibrium, and by then we'll know enough to lot leave our pink and mauve poodles out in the back yard unattended.

Farmpunk

Nature has its own ways of dealing with excessive populations of predadator and prey.  But the balance in SWOnt is skewed by too many factors to count.  This is new age biology.

I'm happy to see coyotes in the land.  I like an active landscape.  I'd probably like coyotes less if they were costing me money.  Raccoons in my sweet corn are bad enough, but losing livestock seems more intrusive.

Reintroducing the turkeys was a good idea and its taken off.  Turkey hunting has also been a big boost to local economies.  I live a few kms from where the birds were released.  It's been an impressive reintroduction thanks to provincial groups like the Long Point Conservation Authority and other groups.

 

Bookish Agrarian

I wondered when I logged onto babble whether there would be a thread on Bills's comments and sure enoughLaughing

Bill, who I've known for years and years, is a populist, he knows what buttons to push and is unafraid to push them.  I expect he was only half serious, and is laughing himself silly this has gotten so big.  I think what people forget is that there are small town people who are as clueless as their big city cousins in terms of the concerns and realities of farming (whom Bill was actually speaking too) just as there are big city folks who know a great deal about the problems facing farmers and how dysfuncitonal our food system too.  Ignorance and knowledge does not depend on geography.

Bill does make a point when he says that there is a "Toronto mentality" to many of the decisions this provincial government in particular makes.  Cookie cutter solutions imposed without considering local needs happens all the time, including perversely in areas like agriculture.  It creates a legacy of resentments that have nothing to do with Toronto per se but where power is located.  If, say Toronto were to get hived off, then people like Bill and those he represents would eventually start complaining about the Peterborough, London, or Kingston mentality depending upon where the 'capital' and largest urban centres ended up being.  It would be inevitable.

Dimano and Bill come from the same place of ignorance.  The simple truth is we need each other.  But for most of us, regardless of where we live it is going to be a bit of a love/hate relationship because we need different things and have to compete for attention.  Sometimes it will be rocky, and other times it will be great, but we need each other.  Rural Ontarians need the tax base created by Toronto, while Toronto is only as successful as it is because of all the things the hinterlands brings to it.  And that is just on economics.  I have often thought what we need is an exchange program for people of all ages to get to understand the different cultures both areas.

 

On coyotes- we have had several coyote attacks here on our farm.  We have had young calves killed within sight of the house.  Last summer coyotees broke into our chicken house and killed dozens and dozens of chickens.  Most were killed for sport as they were not eaten, just killed.  I am pretty down with all of God's creatures on this earth and will let bygones be bygones, but coyotees (and raccoons) are just evil incarnate.  Any population control is good population control for someone who has seen the damage these hateful things cause.  When I was a kid I remember once seeing a coyote.  It was a big deal.  Now I see them regularly and they are big &*ckers.  They have no fear of people, standing within feet of my tractor at times.  Last spring they destroyed an entire colony of turkeys on one of our rented farm.  They must have killed 20 turkeys and just mostly left them there.  Evil, evil, evil thrill killers.

Papal Bull

Farmpunk wrote:
bigger coyotes, with a bred in ontario demeanor.

 

OH. DEAR. GOD.

Bookish Agrarian

Webgear wrote:

We had a vote today. The hamlet of Lindenwood is separating from Ontario and Canada

We are now an independent nation. We are now accepting alliances and trade agreements with all interested parties.

Fuck Toronto.

giggle

Webgear

We had a vote today. The hamlet of Lindenwood is separating from Ontario and Canada.

We are now an independent nation. We are now accepting alliances and trade agreements with all interested parties.

Fuck Toronto.

Webgear

I am serious, what has Toronto done for me lately? Every summer I need spend a few days picking garbage of my land because some lazy fucker from the city is too lazy to head to the dump. He decides that my land is just as good for dumping his waste.

 

Bookish Agrarian

Well I have to do that too, but the garbage is year round and sure doesn't come from Toronto.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Toronto:

  • Arts and culture
  • FREE events all over the city
  • Political actions out the wazoo
  • The yummiest restaurants from many amazing cuisines, and not too pricey if you know where to go
  • Personalized walking tours provided by cool, groovy Torontonians, if you're nice Tongue out
  • Toronto Island
  • People-watching on College Street and Queen Street
  • Groovy festivals during the spring and summer and fall (Jazz, Hot Docs, Pride, Word on the Street just to name a few. I think the coyotes have submitted something to the Fringe this year.)
  • and.....Me!

Who can argue the fabulousness of that?

Nyah to bagkitty. Just because.

Tommy_Paine

When I was a kid I remember once seeing a coyote.  It was a big deal.  Now I see them regularly and they are big &*ckers.  They have no fear of people, standing within feet of my tractor at times.  Last spring they destroyed an entire colony of turkeys on one of our rented farm.  They must have killed 20 turkeys and just mostly left them there.  Evil, evil, evil thrill killers.

 

Yes, there's been a lot of changes regarding wildlife since I was a kid, too.   I'd be interested to see a DNA study done on these big Coyotes, just to see what we're really dealing with here.  Sounds to me like they've been mixing with domestic dogs.   

Another factor i  all this is how rampant rabies was in Ontario before all this.   Rabies that effected far ranging animals more than somewhat stationary species.

Bookish Agrarian

When we were on a cottage road we used to get everything from the weekend garbage bag, to propane tanks- sometimes with the bbq, cats and all kinds of 'stuff' so I know what you mean. 

Webgear

Maysie

Counter to popular beliefs, there is art and culture in the rural areas of the province. Too bad there is only one of you, you should move to the hicks.

Webgear

I have had full bags of garbage from both Toronto and Brampton thrown onto my land.

Yes, there are rural people that do that same however it is not on the same scale as the city folks.

Webgear

I am near a cottage road, it is very dangerous to walk on between May 1st to September 31st.

This is why I receive all the extra garbage, people decide to take my road, drop their waste off and then head on to the city.

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