11 killed at military facility in Texas

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Doug
11 killed at military facility in Texas

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/05/texas.fort.hood.shootings/index.html

Eleven people plus a gunman were dead and 31 wounded after the gunman opened fire Thursday on a soldier-processing center at Fort Hood, Texas, officials said.

The gunman was a soldier, and two other soldiers have been detained as suspects, Army Lt. Gen. Bob Cone said.

The slain gunman was identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, a law enforcement source told CNN. Licensed in Virginia, Hasan was a psychiatrist who previously worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center but more recently was practicing at Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood, according to professional records.

Uh oh. I hope this isn't what it looks like.

Unionist

Obama will now have to expel all Muslims from the U.S.

 

Webgear

And all doctors or educated people.

Fidel

What does it look like to you, Doug? Has one of their [url=http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/07/manchurian-cand/]Manchurian candidates[/url] gone off the deep end?

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

There's some reports coming out that the other two suspects have been released.

Webgear

Soldier suspected of killing 12 at Fort Hood is alive, in custody

 

An Army officer opened fire Thursday with two handguns at the Fort Hood military base in an attack that left 12 people dead and 31 wounded. Authorities apprehended the gunman -- a soldier who had previously been thought killed -- in what appears to be the worst mass shooting at a U.S. military base.

Jingles

I'm speculating that as a psychiatrist, he's heard a lot of sick shit first hand from the troops about the depraved, murderous acts they've committed against civilians, and had enough. 

The guy's a hero.

I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.

Stockholm

If you think that someone who murdered 12 people is a "hero" then you are one sick puppy.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

lol, lock, stock and barrel.

Frmrsldr

Jingles wrote:

I'm speculating that as a psychiatrist, he's heard a lot of sick shit first hand from the troops about the depraved, murderous acts they've committed against civilians, and had enough. 

The guy's a hero.

I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.

Most likely the others were not armed.

Looks like the days of the Wild West are not gone.

The guy was as proficient as John Wesley Hardin.

"I are a shootist" - Quote from a gunslinger.

Frmrsldr

Stockholm wrote:

If you think that someone who murdered 12 people is a "hero" then you are one sick puppy.

Did anyone manage to get his guns? They would be worth a lot. Did anyone dip their hankeys in his blood as a keepsake? Frank and Jessie James rode through here.

Jingles

Quote:
If you think that someone who murdered 12 people is a "hero" then you are one sick puppy.

Quote:
Angry Afghan villagers [url=http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/11/05-5]protested[/url] Thursday against what they said was the killing of 11 civilians by foreign troops, but local authorities said only fighters were killed.

This Friday remember to wear your red T shirt to honour our Heroes. And don't forget to wear a red poppy.

This guy did his best to prevent rapacious thugs from committing the mass murder of innocent civilians. That's pretty heroic.

Stockholm

If posting something as vile as this isn't grounds for being banned from this site for life - I don't know what is.

Jingles

Do you feel sad for those soldiers? I don't.

I'd like to hear your opinion on what should happen to Paul Bernardo. I wonder if that would be ban worthy.

I was shocked, Shocked!, that such unthinkable violence could happen in such a place. No one could have predicted it. No one.

He didn't shoot up a daycare. He didnt' shoot up a classroom. He didn't shoot up a women's shelter. He didn't shoot up an abortion clinic. He shot up a bunch of soldiers being readied for deployment into Afghanistan and Iraq. They were going to participate in a war crime. If the US is at war, like they are always saying they are, then that is a perfectly legitimate target. It's what the Pentagon would call a "target-rich environment".

But go ahead, weep for the worthy victims, cut down so tragically before they could do the Lord's work of killing Muslims.

Stockholm

You know nothing about who this guy slaughtered in his killing spree. If you consider mass murder to be something to be celebrated then you are a truly revolting human being.

Fidel

He shot all the wrong people.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Stockholm wrote:

 you are a truly revolting human being.

 

[img]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd87/sugarfiend06/boo-man.gif[/img]

Fidel

Jingles wrote:
This guy did his best to prevent rapacious thugs from committing the mass murder of innocent civilians. That's pretty heroic.

Well his best was a foolish mistake. The organized murder will continue without him and the soldiers he shot to death. They were probably from lower and working class families.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Everybody take a deep breath.....

Mick

I doubt there's any political motive behind this. The military is a fucked up place full of screwed up, angry and armed men. I remember my cousin telling me about watching a soldier literally kick the head off another soldier in attack when he was based in Germany. Shit like this is almost inevitable.

Frmrsldr

Jingles wrote:

Do you feel sad for those soldiers? I don't.

I'd like to hear your opinion on what should happen to Paul Bernardo. I wonder if that would be ban worthy.

I was shocked, Shocked!, that such unthinkable violence could happen in such a place. No one could have predicted it. No one.

He didn't shoot up a daycare. He didnt' shoot up a classroom. He didn't shoot up a women's shelter. He didn't shoot up an abortion clinic. He shot up a bunch of soldiers being readied for deployment into Afghanistan and Iraq. They were going to participate in a war crime. If the US is at war, like they are always saying they are, then that is a perfectly legitimate target. It's what the Pentagon would call a "target-rich environment".

But go ahead, weep for the worthy victims, cut down so tragically before they could do the Lord's work of killing Muslims.

It is morally pernicious and well as logically contradictory to make a statement that murder is wrong by murdering people.

This is no different than the argument:

1. Abortion is murder.

2. Murder is wrong.

3. Therefore, I'm going to make my political statement to the world by murdering potential or actual murderers (doctors who perfom abortions and their patients).

I see this as a case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is what war does to people. PTSD causes people to suddenly and unpredictably snap. What happened is the sort of thing that PTSD can do to people. I see this as yet another reason why we should pull out of the Iraq and Afghan wars. The Major didn't deserve to have this happen to him. Neither did his victims or their friends and loved ones.

If we (babblers or anyone) are going to protest war, let us do it in a peaceful and non violent way.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

...and exhale.  Important words Frmrsldr.  Thanks.

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

Frmrsdlr,  PSTD was my first thoughts too.  The only problem with that is that current information available is that he hasn't been overseas yet. I suppose that there are other reasons, like the stress from dealing with others as it appears that he may have dealt with PSTD as part of his work.  Regardless it does sound like some sort of snap.  I think it will be some time before the reason is figured out.  There is a whole lot of crap and speculation floating around out there as to why.  The MSM seems to be working on two narratives 'he was upset and angry about being deployed and freaked out' and not surprisingly 'he has some sort of Islamist sentiment' due to supposed blog posting made in the past year ago and the comments made by some Colonel who apparently worked with him.  Two nettworks babbled alot about PSTD before anyone knew anything but they appear to have dropped that narrative now.

The blogosphere has just gone downright nutzo. I've read everything thing from this is the first shots fired in a conspiracy created by Obama and his sekret muslim compatriots to destabilize the military and start the Islamist takeover of the US to he's  'muslim communist'  with connections to Hamas and AQueda and this is a terrorist attack that was supposed to be bigger but failed to the quick actions of the patriotic boys in uniform and some sort of thing that people are calling 'sudden jihad syndrome' as if this is some commonally known ailment. (new one to me, wtf?)   It's sort of frightening what people are coming up with and believing.

 

Jingles

Quote:
If we (babblers or anyone) are going to protest war, let us do it in a peaceful and non violent way.

How's that working out?

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

Jingles wrote:

Quote:
If we (babblers or anyone) are going to protest war, let us do it in a peaceful and non violent way.

How's that working out?

Well Jingles, why don't you go out an do some objecting in the same heroic manner you think this guy did and come back and tell us how it worked out for you.

Frmrsldr

Jingles wrote:

Quote:
If we (babblers or anyone) are going to protest war, let us do it in a peaceful and non violent way.

How's that working out?

Come next election, Harpo wants a majority government. Harpo also wants a small contingent(s) of Canadian troops to stay in Afghanistan beyond 2011. We can make things very uncomfortable for him in both regards if we voice our opposition to the Afghan war by sending in letters to the editor of our daily newspapers, calling in on radio talk shows and attending public peace protests/demonstrations/marches, etc.

If we stand united, and our numbers grow, I think we can accomplish this.

No to the militarization of human rights.

Not one more death!

Out Now!

Bring Our Troops Home Now!

Frmrsldr

Here are some further details about the shooter:

Jason Ditz wrote:

Details about Hasan are still emerging, but he was born in Virginia of Jordanian descent, educated at Virginia Tech and had been serving as a psychiatrist on the base, helping returning soldiers to cope with difficulties related to combat stress.

Maj. Hasan was reportedly an outspoken critic of the Iraq and Afghan Wars, and was said by CNN to have been disillusioned that President Obama did not withdraw forces from Iraq as he had promised. He had also been seeking a discharge from the Army for years, citing harrassment he received as a Muslim.

Officials had reportedly probed the major over comments he had made on the internet, but they say they had never conducted an actual investigation into them.

The situation appears to have come to a head, however, when Hasan recently learned that he would soon be deployed to Iraq. Before the shooting he reportedly gave away his copies of the Qu'ran and all of his furniture.

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/11/05/12-killed-in-fort-hood-shooting/

Uh-oh, giving away important items of personal property is often a sign of impending suicide.

James Dao wrote:

... Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the 39-year-old man accused of Thursday's mass shooting a Fort Hood, Tex., began having second thoughts about a military career a few years ago after other soldiers harassed him for being a Muslim, he told relatives in Virginia.

He had also more recently expressed deep concerns about being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan. Having counseled scores of returning soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder, first at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington and more recently at Fort Hood, he knew all too well the terrifying realities of war, said a cousin, Nader Hasan.

"He was mortified by the idea of having to deploy," Mr. Hasan said. "He had people telling him on a daily basis the horrors they saw over there."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06suspect.html?_r=1&hp

Ann Scott Tyson wrote:

Fort Hood, the Texas military base that was the scene of a mass shooting Thursday, has been hard hit by the growing strain on the Army from multiple combat deployments -- with its personnel suffering the highest number of suicides among Army installations since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, according to official data.

After many years of lengthy war zone rotations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Army personnel are experiencing record rates of suicide, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and other mental health problems, as well as worsening alcohol and drug abuse.

The psychological toll on the all-volunteer force today is unprecedented, Army officials say, acknowledging that they do not know how much the Army can sustain before it breaks -- making the health of the force a major consideration in President Obama's current deliberations over sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan...

... A small but increasing number of soldiers undergoing the mental strain of repeated combat deployments are taking lives -- often their own.

This year, 117 active-duty Army soldiers were reported to have committed suicide, with 81 of those cases confirmed -- up from 103 suicides during the same period last year. Ten suicides have been reported at Fort Hood this year; more than 75 of its personnel have committed suicide since 2003. Fort Hood's high number of suicides is also linked to the fact that it is the Army's largest base, with more than 53,000 soldiers...

... Those who treat the mentally wounded, including doctors such as Hasan, are not immune from the symptoms. It is not uncommon for therapists who treat patients for post-traumatic stress disorder to experience some symptoms vicariously after hearing account after account of the horrors of the battlefield.

Hasan was a psychiatry intern at Walter Reed Army Medical Center from June 2003 to July 2009, Army officials said. In that position, he probably treated soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR200911...

Tommy_Paine

I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.

Others here are more expert than I, but I think some Glocks hold 19 or 22 rounds, and only take a second and a half to expel an empty magazine and insert a full one.    Considering no one walks around armed on the base, it's a wonder more weren't killed and injured.

I do not understand how targetting unarmed people in this manner could be accounted as heroic.

abnormal

I found this link on another board - it appears to be the shooters Facebook page:-

http://www.facebook.com/people/Malik-Hassan-Malik/1008970609

Michelle

Thanks for your calm and intelligent responses, frmrsoldier. 

Jingles, you got your shock value.  Cut it out.  What you're writing is completely offensive, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

canuquetoo

Michelle wrote:

Thanks for your calm and intelligent responses, frmrsoldier. 

Jingles, you got your shock value.  Cut it out.  What you're writing is completely offensive, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Cut it out? Thats all this sick puppy gets for praising murder?  No matter one's politics, violence, especially murder is wrong. Whether commited by tribal feudalists or the operatives of geopolitical brinksmanship its wrong.

Praising such an act is against babble policy and reducing its impact to 'shock value' implies babble policy only enforced selectively.

How about someone 'praising' Marc Lepine for being a good Muslim and protecting traditional values? Would that odious post rate a "Cut it out" or would you and the Praetorian Guard go all medieval on the poster?

Snert Snert's picture

I think Jingles is an agent provocateur.

To any right-wing lurkers:  no, we don't all get woodies when a soldier is killed. 

Star Spangled C...

Frmrsldr wrote:

I see this as a case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is what war does to people. PTSD causes people to suddenly and unpredictably snap. What happened is the sort of thing that PTSD can do to people. I see this as yet another reason why we should pull out of the Iraq and Afghan wars. The Major didn't deserve to have this happen to him. Neither did his victims or their friends and loved ones.

Oh, what utter bullshit. it wasn't post-traumatic stress disorder. He hadn't even been overseas. Lots of people ahve been and don't go around shooting everyone in site. Chalking up this sort of reprehensible action to mental illness is truly offensive to the many people who struggle with mental illness and don't massacre their fellow soldiers.

Why is nobody willing to put aside political correctness and be honest about what happened? He was a Muslim fanatic who yelled "Allah Akhbar" as he shot up American soldiers in cold blood. That - not mental illness - is what motivated this horrific crime.

And, Jingles, your words are truly the most reprehensible comments I've ever heard on this board or likely in any discussion period. I can only imagine how you'd feel if someone you loved was murdered in cold blood and then had to listen to some asshole call their killer a "hero" and say that the victim had it coming.

Star Spangled C...

canuquetoo wrote:

[How about someone 'praising' Marc Lepine for being a good Muslim and protecting traditional values? Would that odious post rate a "Cut it out" or would you and the Praetorian Guard go all medieval on the poster?

Or if someone praised the man who went into a Kansas church last year and shot an abortion doctor in cold blood? Mass murderers like this guy aren't heroes. And Jingles is not human.

Unionist

Don't you think - all of you - it's time to leave Jingles alone? The over-the-top comments about him would be better reserved for the real mass murderers of this world.

I have no idea why this person killed these soldiers. But I personally reserve more grief and emotion for the victims of U.S. soldiers. That doesn't mean I consider their murderer a hero. But I find it bizarre - scary actually - to read some of the posts above and realize they could be applied to Omar Khadr (in fact, they have been by some babblers).

The frenzy in this thread reminds me of the furore against Sunera Thobani, for daring to mention that the U.S. was a victim on Sept. 11 in part because its hands were stained in blood.

Leave Jingles alone, and apply a little perspective please.

Unionist

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
He was a Muslim fanatic who yelled "Allah Akhbar" as he shot up American soldiers in cold blood. That - not mental illness - is what motivated this horrific crime.

 

Islamophobia - noun - a mental state which allows the sufferer to draw anti-Muslim conclusions in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.

Star Spangled C...

Have you read a newspaper this morning, unionist? No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange.

No, no, it's probably post-traumatic distress disorder because of the big bad American government.

Denial - noun -an unwillingness to accept plainly evident truth becuase it contradicts your assumptions and may tarnish your "progressive" credentials.

Unionist

Well, SSC, what about Omar Khadr? Wanna see that Muslim fanatic punished for murdering that poor innocent U.S. armed tourist who was lost in Afghanistan?

You see, at the end of the day, you and I are on different sides of the big conflicts in the world today. That's why you get worked up into a serious lather of personally attacking fellow babblers, but would never dream of being so intemperate in your language when it comes to Israelis massacring civilians in Gaza or the U.S. and its allies massacring civilians in Afghanistan.

And that's why, in the greater scheme of things, the death of a bunch of U.S. soldiers readying for deployment on their "missions" doesn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

 

Star Spangled C...

Unionist wrote:

Well, SSC, what about Omar Khadr? Wanna see that Muslim fanatic punished for murdering that poor innocent U.S. armed tourist who was lost in Afghanistan?

if he's guilty, I certainly do. I think he deserves a trial already. If he's innocent, set him free, if he's guilty, send him to jail. Seems pretty obvious. And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends? Yeah, I do consider that guy a hero and his death a tragedy.

Star Spangled C...

By the way, are you still going to insist that pointing out the patently obvious truth that the shooter was Muslim and that his faith was a key motivator of his massacre as "Islamaphobic"?

Buddy Kat

I wonder why these borderline nutcases that go around killing all these innocent people don't go after the real root causes , no instead they go after the people who are innocent brainwashed simpletons Very cowardly ..can't they figure out "no root, no weed , no problem".

Apparently because of his muslim background he was constantly taunted and made fun off....they don't seem to be reporting that fact as much. Maybe this will be the shot heard around the world, possibly start an american civil war. A military so cruel even it's own soldiers turn on them.

 

You see this same thing happening with disgruntled workers too..going after fellow employess. Or better yet the racism in Canada where they blame the poor person from another country for taking their job when it's usually some political agenda to get more votes in a riding....or grease the palm of their buddies. Who do the simpletons go after ..the poor sap ,not the politician, not the former civil servant  who runs a $10,000 a head operation in another country...no they go after  inocent people. It's sick, and cowardly.

They could all be hero's for one day instead of cowards if they went after the right culprits. So the nest time yer paxil runs out or your zoloft or another serotonin uptake inhibitor, think the mosanto mantra "No root, no weed ,no problem"..go to the top and be a hero. Just say Jingles sent ya!

Unionist

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

By the way, are you still going to insist that pointing out the patently obvious truth that the shooter was Muslim and that his faith was a key motivator of his massacre as "Islamaphobic"?

You know nothing - but that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions. You speak of his "faith"? Based on what - CNN reports? You're saying that a person's "Muslim faith" can motivate him to mass murder? And you don't see that as Islamophobic?

What about the bastard that killed Rabin. And the little Nazi that massacred Muslim worshippers in Jerusalem. I think it was "the fact that they were Jewish" and their faith that motivated them to do it!!!

Your comments here are not only Islamophobic, they are so deeply Islamophobic that you quite sincerely can't even see it.

Star Spangled C...

Based on interviews with people who actually knew him and from eyewitness reports. What else are you gonna go on? Or do you assume he's some gung-ho American redneck type who drives a pickup and loves Jesus and joined the military to kill Muslims? It was like during the DC sniper situation several years ago where people seemed so hesitant to point out that the guy was Muslim and that that's what motivated him. Far more stories referred to the shooter as a 'former soldier' instead of a "muslim extremist' as if his military career was what played a role...

Star Spangled C...

Unionist wrote:

What about the bastard that killed Rabin. And the little Nazi that massacred Muslim worshippers in Jerusalem. I think it was "the fact that they were Jewish" and their faith that motivated them to do it!!!

Obviously their faith DID motivate them to do it!! Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir WERE Jewish extremists whose twisted interpretations of Judaism did cause them to committ terrible crimes. Now, obviously, Jews like you or me or the vast majority of them, don't deserve to be lumped together with Goldstein and Amir just as the vast majority of Muslims don't deserve to be lumped in with this killer. But no one would deny that extremist forms of judaism influenced Amir and Goldstein's crimes. Just like no reasonable person could deny that extremist Islam influenced this guy. Accepting plain facts doesn't make one Islamaphobic in this case or anti-Semitic in the other.

Edited to add: When you referred to the massacre of worshippers, I assumed you were talking about Goldstein until I noticed that you said it was in Jerusalem. THe Goldstein massacre took place in Hevron (at Macpaleh) so I don't know if you're referring to something else...

Stockholm

As SSB pointed out:

"No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange."

I think that there is a saying "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - it's a duck".

Unfortunately, by his actions, the murderer will only make things worse. As a result of his actions, suspicions and prejudice towards Muslims in the US - esp. in the military will get worse not better, pressure on Obama to "up the ante' in Afghanistan will intensify, not diminish. This act will serve to put sincere, peaceful opponents of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on the defensive and will provide a motherload of propaganda to the pro-war forces. On every level, the murders actions will have the exact opposite impact of what he seems to have desired.

Merowe

I think it would be misguided to package this incident as the work of a single, Islamic madman: too easy to file under 'crazy towelhead' and dismiss.

I think his Islamism is peripheral: the root as noted above is surely his long exposure to war-traumatized American vets and the horrible stories they would have reported to him, stories of sadism and everyday brutality against a fairly defenseless civilian population. I think stories like this would push a lot of people over the top, regardless of religion.

And it seems clear he had tried for a long time to extract himself from his situation; as a professional he would have been aware of the effect of the stresses upon him and the damage it was doing to his mental health; but it seems the military bureacracy's idea of a solution was to tip him from the frying pan into the fire.

Boom! And off he goes. Hardly surprising; just another military tragedy. With a nod to Jingles, if a little more of the violence the American war machine daily unleashes abroad stayed at home, useful questions might start to be asked. 

So expect a vigorous effort from the MSM to spin this into an isolated 'rogue soldier' incident, instead of an index of the current state of morale among troops trapped - 'stop-loss' anyone? - in an indefensible war.  

Stockholm

"So expect a vigorous effort from the MSM to spin this into an isolated 'rogue soldier' incident"

We should only be so lucky as to have the MSM spin this an isolated "rogue soldier" incident. The alternative interpretation will be to see this as part of a vast Islamic al-qaeda inspired conspiracy that justifies the whole so-called war on terrorism and could easily turn into a McCarthyite witch-hunt of "islamists" within American institutions such as the military.

I hope to God that this does get spun as the act of an isolated rogue soldier with mental health issues for the reasons i just enumerated.

Kaspar Hauser

There's a good interview on Democracy Now about this incident:

 

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/6/in_worst_ever_shooting_of_its

Unionist

This is obviously a plot by the U.S. ruling class, spearheaded by Dick Cheney, to provide a pretext for an invasion of Jordan. Note the number killed - "11" - what other attack happened on the 11th? I rest my case.

 

Slumberjack

The terrorism of geo-political hubris and murder begats reactionary terror and murder as it's expected response.  The question of an individuals name and beliefs, and of this atrocity occurring under Obama's watch, has been answered before in countless predictable ways within the circles (Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, etc) that can usually be counted on to demand a particular series of responses, which involve the imposition of additional measures of violence and repression upon those already suffering under it here and abroad.

Predictably as well, a certain capacity for misaligned satisfaction can present itself upon news of casualties being inflicted upon the aggressor.  For example, insurgencies against illegal occupation can bring forth admiration for its tenacity, for the effects it is capable of achieving in the face of overwhelming odds, where we may understand each occurrence as serving to remind the powerful who use violence to achieve their ends in the first place, of their own limitations.  We tend to assume as much in clinging however precariously to the notion that suffering of any kind from either side beyond their own skins moves any of them.  

In following the mounting losses leading up to the psychological 4000 US body count in Iraq, I found that the satisfaction arising from each new statistical update to be short lived, to where it disappeared altogether upon further reflection, where the reality was obscured by the animation that came with the business of tallying alongside the grim reaper.  The horrific toll suffered on both sides, unimaginable personal losses for those left to contend with it, blinkered by the suggestion that those who preside over it, direct more of the same, and profit enormously from it give a damn.  They who present an  unremitting series of falsehoods, nationalism, honour and sacrifice, freedom through security, red t-shirts, remembrance, the 'more must be done to pay homage to what they have already wrought' stupidity, when in fact all of it is utter bullshit.  I've come to understand that grave dancing instead is more appropriately reserved to mark their passing.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Unionist wrote:

The frenzy in this thread reminds me of the furore against Sunera Thobani, for daring to mention that the U.S. was a victim on Sept. 11 in part because its hands were stained in blood.

I don't think she in any way celebrated the deaths, but rather spoke to the underlying causes.  That said I think that issues of soldiers and death are morally very messy and I think there should be wide latitude in the discussion.

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