11 killed at military facility in Texas

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Unionist

Pogo wrote:

Unionist wrote:

The frenzy in this thread reminds me of the furore against Sunera Thobani, for daring to mention that the U.S. was a victim on Sept. 11 in part because its hands were stained in blood.

I don't think she in any way celebrated the deaths, but rather spoke to the underlying causes.  That said I think that issues of soldiers and death are morally very messy and I think there should be wide latitude in the discussion.

You're right of course. There is no exact analogy. But the rhetoric in this thread is appalling - including the harebrained conclusions about the motivations of the shooter, based on ignorance, prejudice, and MSM reports that change by the minute. I agree with your call for wide latitude.

Stockholm

I agree, we have to keep away from "harebrained conclusions" based on zero evidence , such as the following:

"I think his Islamism is peripheral: the root as noted above is surely his long exposure to war-traumatized American vets and the horrible stories they would have reported to him, stories of sadism and everyday brutality against a fairly defenseless civilian population. I think stories like this would push a lot of people over the top, regardless of religion."

I think that we can probably all agree, that whatever the murderer's motives, his actions will only bolster support for curtailing civil liberties in the name of the "war on terrorism" and will only increase pressure on Obama NOT to withdraw from Afghanistan. I'm surprised no one has speculated that he isn't secretely a CIA agent on a suicidal mission to bolster support for the war on terrorism.

 

 

canuquetoo

Unionist wrote:

Don't you think - all of you - it's time to leave Jingles alone? The over-the-top comments about him would be better reserved for the real mass murderers of this world.

I have no idea why this person killed these soldiers. But I personally reserve more grief and emotion for the victims of U.S. soldiers. That doesn't mean I consider their murderer a hero. But I find it bizarre - scary actually - to read some of the posts above and realize they could be applied to Omar Khadr (in fact, they have been by some babblers).

The frenzy in this thread reminds me of the furore against Sunera Thobani, for daring to mention that the U.S. was a victim on Sept. 11 in part because its hands were stained in blood.

Leave Jingles alone, and apply a little perspective please.

Perspective as in US military adventurism directly kills thousands of people per year and indirectly causes the death and injury of many more so killing a dozen or so crusaders is no big deal?

Or, perspective as in Jingles is showning himself to be a total asshole anyways so, whats a little more offensive behaviour?

I prefer the 'all violence is wrong, and so is getting a woody from select violence because the victims had it coming' perspective. There are no perspectives to violence - its wrong, period.

I think I'll save my perspective for innocent American Muslims who may have to carry one isolated lunatic's bags for a long time. The perp happened to be a Muslim perp but that distinction will most likely be lost in the media scramble to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

Obama will now have to expel all Muslims from the U.S.

There is no need for Hill&Knowlton opinionators now to drum up a similar conspiracy theory surrounding "nurse Nayirah"

And they're all out of Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy theories to justify sending 58,000 Americans to their deaths in Asia for the sake of the warfiteers.

 And if they play it up right, this could be the equivalent of Joe Goebbels' windfall when a Jewish student assassinated a German diplomat in Paris. The warmongers won't miss this chance to beat their war drums. Not now with the launching of the USS New York, with its new hull forged from steel carted off from the site of the twin towers in record time. As Scarlett O'Hara once said, the US military-industrial complexers never be hungry or vulnerable again!

Unionist

canuquetoo wrote:

I prefer the 'all violence is wrong, and so is getting a woody from select violence because the victims had it coming' perspective. There are no perspectives to violence - its wrong, period.

I respectfully disagree. That's what conquerors always preach to the conquered - once the conquest has been consolidated. It's up to the victims to determine what methods they'll use to free themselves. When native insurgents meet U.S. (or Russian or Canadian or Polish or British) invaders anywhere in this world, I side with the insurgents. I'll leave you the pleasure of tut-tutting against both, and wishing they would just hug.

 

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
I respectfully disagree....... I'll leave you the pleasure of tut-tutting against both, and wishing they would just hug. 

Funny how intentions can become reduced to sheer hypothesis within the space of a single paragraph.

NDPP

Unionist wrote:

And that's why, in the greater scheme of things, the death of a bunch of U.S. soldiers readying for deployment on their "missions" doesn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

NDPP

I absolutely concur.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

canuquetoo wrote:

I prefer the 'all violence is wrong, and so is getting a woody from select violence because the victims had it coming' perspective. There are no perspectives to violence - its wrong, period.

I respectfully disagree. That's what conquerors always preach to the conquered - once the conquest has been consolidated. It's up to the victims to determine what methods they'll use to free themselves. When native insurgents meet U.S. (or Russian or Canadian or Polish or British) invaders anywhere in this world, I side with the insurgents. I'll leave you the pleasure of tut-tutting against both, and wishing they would just hug.

But couldn't we help out the insurgents(not to mention Afghans being murdered every day) by pressing our warmongering old line parties to use diplomatic channels and nehgotiate peace with the Taliban as well as the surrounding countries deeply involved in this latest proxy war in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Or do we contiinue cheering on the slaughter from the sidelines and wagering that the Taliban will be victorious, and eventually put an end to the 30 year-long US meddling in their country? I think there are certain Americans who don't want our stooges in Ottawa to lead them anywhere near open and transparent peace negotiations, like it was with Paris peace talks between the NVA and USsA. US hawks didn't appreciate Ho Chi Minh and company embarrassing them the way they did, and I'm wondering why the Taliban continue with backchannel talks between them and the CIA, Brits, Saudis and ISI. Something doesnt smell right about this phony war.

Slumberjack

It rates as a great tragedy through the media's perspective of the week, which in turn lends fuel to the assortment of talking heads who ominously rant ad nauseum about the representative enemies within, which engenders a far more lasting impression.

NDPP

Unionist wrote:

And that's why, in the greater scheme of things, the death of a bunch of U.S. soldiers readying for deployment on their "missions" doesn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

NDPP

I absolutely concur.

Dark Glass: Hateful Echoes and Hidden Costs

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1871-...

"At this stage, with so much about the Fort Hood case still unknown, there is little point in commenting on the substance of the case. But all kinds of rumours and conjectures and second-hand reports about the alleged shooter are ricocheting around the media echo chamber.."

Stockholm

Unionist wrote:

And that's why, in the greater scheme of things, the death of a bunch of U.S. soldiers readying for deployment on their "missions" doesn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

Gee I was just thinking to myself that in the greater scheme of things, the death of Unionist also wouldn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

Fidel

I think the military-industrial warfiteering complex will see it as just nother marketing opportunity. Whether it's 3000 dying on 9/11 or 11 dying in the lead up to Novembrance day, it's all good when America is under attack. As long as Americans learn to live in constant fear, that's what really counts with a country whose economy is based on war and increasingly aggressive foreign policies since 1991. 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends?

As opposed to going to war on the basis of a lie (to steal oil) and killing up to a million people? Or sending innocent people to be raped with broken bottles? Dp you think any of those victims had friends, family, lovers? Or do only white lives carry value?

What happened was a tragedy, but it is a small tragedy compared to the crimes carried out in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Palestine where many more people die every single day while over the "great game".

 

Fidel

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Quote:
And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends?

As opposed to going to war on the basis of a lie (to steal oil) and killing up to a million people? Or sending innocent people to be raped with broken bottles? Dp you think any of those victims had friends, family, lovers? Or do only white lives carry value?

What happened was a tragedy, but it is a small tragedy compared to the crimes carried out in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Palestine where many more people die every single day while over the "great game".

Yes, and [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1679]The UK Was Complicit In Torture In Uzbekistan[/url]

Quote:
Craig Murray is the UK's former ambassador to Uzbekistan, who was removed from his post after complaining too loudly about human rights abuses and torture in a country that was, at the time, considered a vital ally in the "war on terror". He's since written a book about those abuses, and the UK and US's complicity in and toleration of them; unfortunately the British government is trying to use their draconian Official Secrets Act to prevent the revelation of embarrassing information, demanding that he

remove all references to two especially damning British government documents, indicating that our government was knowingly receiving information extracted by the Uzbeks through torture, and return every copy that he has in his possession.

So, he's gone around them. The Blairwatch blog has coordinated a massive leak of the documents to the internet, publishing them themselves and urging other blogs to do the same. As they said in their email, it's not the Al-Jazera memo, but these documents need publishing.

Global phony war on terror continues.

Aristotleded24

canuquetoo wrote:

Michelle wrote:

Thanks for your calm and intelligent responses, frmrsoldier. 

Jingles, you got your shock value.  Cut it out.  What you're writing is completely offensive, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Cut it out? Thats all this sick puppy gets for praising murder?  No matter one's politics, violence, especially murder is wrong. Whether commited by tribal feudalists or the operatives of geopolitical brinksmanship its wrong.

Praising such an act is against babble policy and reducing its impact to 'shock value' implies babble policy only enforced selectively.

I agree. Is praising an act of mass murder acceptable on babble or isn't it?

E.Tamaran

I'm going to re-edit a post of mine where I had originally wished death by Orca on some traitors. Unionist was quite strident and vocal that that was "offensive" and even alerted the moderator, so I deleted that portion. It's going back in. Death by Orca to the Chiefs who carried the Olympic Torch into Victoria!

 

Frmrsldr

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

if he's guilty, I certainly do. I think he deserves a trial already. If he's innocent, set him free, if he's guilty, send him to jail. Seems pretty obvious. And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends? Yeah, I do consider that guy a hero and his death a tragedy.

Look, if we went into Afghanistan to protect the rights of women and men there, then why did the Carter, Reagan, H. W. Bush, Clinton and G. W. Bush administrations support the Northern Alliance warlords and mujahideen (Mullah Mohammed Omar of the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden of Al Qaeda among them) during the 1979-89 Soviet Afghan War, 1990-96 Afghan Civil War where Northern Alliance warlords murdered tens of thousands of Afghans during the seige of Kabul (Rashid Dostum and Abdullah Abdullah, among others)? The Taliban regime was in power from 1996-2001, yet there was not a word from the G. W. Bush administration about human rights violations and, in fact, they were negotiating a deal for the TAP (Trans Afghan Pipeline) with the Taliban.

Your comment about the 3000 people who were murdered on 9/11 is closer to the truth: We are fighting in Afghanistan to avenge their deaths. In our current war, we have murdered tens of thousands of innocent Afghans. After we murdered 3000 Afghans (which we accomplished in the first month of war) why didn't we declare that vengeance was served and end the war? Where is the reciprocity?

I don't say that soldiers are evil - until very recently, I was one myself. Who I blame are the ones who sent them there: the U.S. and Canadian governments for the lies they used to send the gullible and the believing over there to commit murder and run the risk of being killed or physically or emotionally injured themselves.

This idea about us fighting in Afghanistan to defend the rights of Afghans is the bullshit our governments tell us to sell our illegal, unjust and immoral war in Afghanistan.

Frmrsldr

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

By the way, are you still going to insist that pointing out the patently obvious truth that the shooter was Muslim and that his faith was a key motivator of his massacre as "Islamaphobic"?

To make the statement that, "... his faith was a key motivator of his massacre..." is to jump to a conclusion that is neither obvious nor necessary.

Frmrsldr

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Based on interviews with people who actually knew him and from eyewitness reports. What else are you gonna go on? Or do you assume he's some gung-ho American redneck type who drives a pickup and loves Jesus and joined the military to kill Muslims? It was like during the DC sniper situation several years ago where people seemed so hesitant to point out that the guy was Muslim and that that's what motivated him. Far more stories referred to the shooter as a 'former soldier' instead of a "muslim extremist' as if his military career was what played a role...

I read that he joined the military because the United States of America was his country and he felt he owed it to serve his country.

Tommy_Paine

It's all very complicated, Fmrsldr. 

I think what the end game really is in both Afghanistan and Iraq is to create some kind of stable regime that will suffer the Americans to maintain a military base or bases in both countries, thus securing hegemony over the resources in the region and to surround and nuetralize Iranian asperations in the region.

I believe the Bush administration were going to find some pretext to do what they did.  While I'm sure they banked on the region's endless supply of pretexts for military intervention, I doubt they envisioned such a spectacular pretext as what happened in New York on 9/11.

And, Canada is providing service to the empire as we always have, as good Roman auxilliaries did.  It's the Saxon way.

Cheer up, lad.  As insane, immoral, illegal and unjust as this foray is for us, it's not as insane, immoral, illegal and unjust as the Boer War.  We're getting better.

 

Unionist

E.Tamaran wrote:

I'm going to re-edit a post of mine where I had originally wished death by Orca on some traitors. Unionist was quite strident and vocal that that was "offensive" and even alerted the moderator, so I deleted that portion. It's going back in. Death by Orca to the Chiefs who carried the Olympic Torch into Victoria!

Stockholm?

Aristotleded24?

ElizaQ?

Canuquetoo?

Star Spangled "Canadian"?

Michelle!?

After calling for Jingles to be [you name it] for his words, what do we do with this call for death to FN chiefs?

Let it go?

 

al-Qa'bong

Well, howzabout just the Muslim FN chiefs?

Frmrsldr

Stockholm wrote:

As SSB pointed out:

"No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange."

 

There are alternate interpretations to these alleged actions:

1. Spent the morning handing out Korans.

I have also read that he gave away other items of personal property: This is usually a sign of impending suicide.

2. He yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting.

This could be a cry for help: "God forgive me for what I am doing."

3. He was questioned (not investigated) about the internet postings of a "Hasan" who praised suicide bombings against American soldiers. So far no public announcement has been made whether there is a connection or not between the internet "Hasan" and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan.

4. He was disciplined at his previous job for "aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients.

To me, this (along with some of the other talking points) is a sign of PTSD. Think about it. If the shootout was the premeditated act of a rational killer or if he was an Al Qaeda "sleeper agent" or "mole" (trained assasssin) meant to destroy America from within, then he wouldn't be so foolish or careless to "proseletyze" his patients, bring unwanted attention to himself and thus tip the hand of the public and the authorities, would he?

5. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb.

So what? Prima facie, this establishes nothing.

6. On a registration form, he listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan,...

His response to the question of his nationality on the registration form, because it was in a mosque, he was probably thinking in terms of his ethnic culture. Many Palestinians live in Israel (where they are denied citizenship), Jordan and Egypt (where, sadly, they often live in refugee camps - both countries). His parents very well could have been Palestinians living in Jordan. He may also have responded with his cultural identity in this case, to prove his "Muslim-ness".

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I agree. Is praising an act of mass murder acceptable on babble or isn't it?

Please.

I don't I agree with Jingle's characterization of this event, but there is praising of mass murder on babble quite regularly. On Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan there are those who offer the equivalent of the praise of mass murder when they defend imperial interventions in other nations. Look at Star Spangled's comment: 

Quote:

And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends? Yeah, I do consider that guy a hero and his death a tragedy.

What does that statement say? isn't he praising mass murder in Afghanistan as revenge for a crime for which no evidence has ever been submitted to an impartial body? If his "armed tourist" is a hero for killing to right the wrong of 9/11, why isn't any Muslim's act to right the wrong of the illegal invasion of Iraq and the tremendous human cost in that nation equally right?

Is it because one nation's hero is another nation's mass killer?

Ever since I've been on babble there have been efforts by some to try and somehow legitimize state violence against civilians because of uniforms or some other such claptrap. Well you know what, armed violence is pure terror for those against whom it is aimed regardless of the clothing worn by those carrying it out.

If babble is going to ban those who praise mass murder, I'm all in favour. But let's include all praise of all mass murder.

remind remind's picture

Outrage over death by Orca, eh?

 

Now that we all know what was said....

 

Perhaps before getting all outragey, people might want to look up what Orcas mean to BC Coastal FN's.

 

That aside if a FN person wants to rail against their leaders and says death to them, apparently  by orca, then who am I, or is anyone, to judge them?

 

 

 

Unionist

remind wrote:

Outrage over death by Orca, eh?

 

Now that we all know what was said....

No, that's not what was said - that's the new sanitized version. But nice to see that E.Tamaran has no interest in this thread other than smearing some FN chiefs and wishing them death. Not sure what your interest is.

 

 

Stockholm

Frmrsldr wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

As SSB pointed out:

"No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange."

 

There are alternate interpretations to these alleged actions:

1. Spent the morning handing out Korans.

I have also read that he gave away other items of personal property: This is usually a sign of impending suicide.

2. He yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting.

This could be a cry for help: "God forgive me for what I am doing."

3. He was questioned (not investigated) about the internet postings of a "Hasan" who praised suicide bombings against American soldiers. So far no public announcement has been made whether there is a connection or not between the internet "Hasan" and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan.

4. He was disciplined at his previous job for "aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients.

To me, this (along with some of the other talking points) is a sign of PTSD. Think about it. If the shootout was the premeditated act of a rational killer or if he was an Al Qaeda "sleeper agent" or "mole" (trained assasssin) meant to destroy America from within, then he wouldn't be so foolish or careless to "proseletyze" his patients, bring unwanted attention to himself and thus tip the hand of the public and the authorities, would he?

5. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb.

So what? Prima facie, this establishes nothing.

6. On a registration form, he listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan,...

His response to the question of his nationality on the registration form, because it was in a mosque, he was probably thinking in terms of his ethnic culture. Many Palestinians live in Israel (where they are denied citizenship), Jordan and Egypt (where, sadly, they often live in refugee camps - both countries). His parents very well could have been Palestinians living in Jordan. He may also have responded with his cultural identity in this case, to prove his "Muslim-ness".

This really takes the cake for grasping at straws. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck ITS A DUCK.

Fidel

No need for a throw-down Koran at the scene of this crime, that's for sure.

Frmrsldr

Stockholm wrote:

This really takes the cake for grasping at straws. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck ITS A DUCK.

LaughingI got a really good laugh out of that one. Thanks Stockholm. It's been awhile since I got a really good laugh.

So, if you see someone wearing traditional Muslim garb (in America, "the land of the free") then you can be certain it is a "slam dunk" that person is an Islamist whacko killer.

Talk about grasping at straws.

To prejudge is to be guilty of prejudice.

If I'm ever in a jam and find myself in court, remind me not to hire you as my lawyer, o.k.?Wink

Frmrsldr

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

I see this as a case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is what war does to people. PTSD causes people to suddenly and unpredictably snap. What happened is the sort of thing that PTSD can do to people. I see this as yet another reason why we should pull out of the Iraq and Afghan wars. The Major didn't deserve to have this happen to him. Neither did his victims or their friends and loved ones.

Oh, what utter bullshit. it wasn't post-traumatic stress disorder. He hadn't even been overseas. Lots of people ahve been and don't go around shooting everyone in site. Chalking up this sort of reprehensible action to mental illness is truly offensive to the many people who struggle with mental illness and don't massacre their fellow soldiers.

Why is nobody willing to put aside political correctness and be honest about what happened? He was a Muslim fanatic who yelled "Allah Akhbar" as he shot up American soldiers in cold blood. That - not mental illness - is what motivated this horrific crime.

Let me direct you once again to a certain part of the Washington Post article I posted above:

Ann Scott Tyson wrote:

... Those who treat the mentally wounded, including doctors such as Hasan, are not immune from the symptoms. It is not uncommon for therapists who treat patients for post-traumatic stress disorder to experience some symptoms vicariously after hearing account after account of the horrors of the battlefield.

PTSD is not a mental illness, but a mental/emotional injury/trauma. I hope the approach North American society takes with this case is one neither of mental illness/insanity, conspiracy theory (he was an Al Qaeda "sleeper agent" or "mole") or one of he was a religious fanatic. To do so would ignore/sweep under the rug the serious issue of PTSD suffered by American and Canadian service men and women. Let us not forget the fact that the rate of PTSD, suicide and violent crime within both the American and Canadian militaries have skyrocketed higher and higher each year since 2001, the year of the initial invasion of Afghanistan.

How American society deals with this case will show whether or not there is a difference between the Bush and Obama administrations.

I sincerely hope we get it right this time.

Aaron Glantz wrote:

... It's unknown how many Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have died this way, but like the 12 soldiers gunned down at Fort Hood this week, their deaths would not have occurred if not for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://original.antiwar.com/glantz/2009/11/06/after-fort-hood-count-all-...

 

NDPP

An Easy Out

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/24805

"It's hard to pinpoint what's the most shocking thing about Major Malik Nadal Haran's shooting rampage at Fort Hood, Texas. I'll start with this: there's nothing all that ground-breaking about it. Happens all the time..."

Frmrsldr

Stockholm wrote:

This really takes the cake for grasping at straws. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck ITS A DUCK.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's comrades-in-arms don't agree with you:

Dahr Jamail wrote:

Responding to the allegations in the media that the attack was based on his Muslim faith, [Specialist Michael] Kern told IPS that he did not know of anyone on the base who felt this was the case.

"We all wear the same uniform here, it's all green. I've seen the news, but most folks here assume it's just a soldier that snapped," Kern explained. "I have not talked to anyone who thinks what he did has anything to do with him being a Muslim..."

http://original.antiwar.com/jamail/2009/11/06/war-comes-home-with-ft-hoo...

E.Tamaran

Unionist wrote:

No, that's not what was said

Yes, it is what I originally said.

Ghislaine

Hasan was most definitely not a hero. I also think we should not all jump to conclusions about what his motives were before anyone really knows anything! 

There was a [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/06/kimberly-munley-fort-hood] heroine [/url] that day however.

Unionist

Ghislaine wrote:

Hasan was most definitely not a hero. I also think we should not all jump to conclusions about what his motives were before anyone really knows anything!

Thanks, G., short and sweet - it would be nice if some of the posters upthread took note of that simple truth!

 

Ghislaine

Yes - there will be a trial if he recovers from his injuries. I am assuming this will be a military trial - or will it be a civilian one? Anyone know? 

Obama did make one small comment with wisdom when he advised the American people "not to jump to conclusions". 

oldgoat

Jebus H. MacChrist!.  Sounds like there's going to be a lot of attrition through death around here, along with even some formula for who's a hero and who get's mourned more.

Just out of curiosity, I'd be intersted in knowing what death by orca means, but another time perhaps.

Look, I was really uncomfortable with this from the getgo.  In a rare difference of views from Michelle, I may have taken stronger measures about jingles, myself.  I don't think lauding people's random deaths like that belongs on a progressive board, or referring to the clearly troubled shooter as a hero.  Worse, it set a bad tone for really bad comments as the thread progressed, and made the predictable polarization even worse.

From here on, we shall not wish death on other babblers, we shall not wish death upon or openly celebrate the deaths of people by catagory.  (that means if Rush Limbaugh chokes on a chicken bone we may collectively snicker, but not at some random group like soldiers who are sucked in through some back door draft and in the wrong place at the wrong time.) We shall not wish death upon FN leaders involved in a stupid sports event, political ramafications aside.

While I'm here...there are anti Muslim posts above.  don't do it any more.

 

My own take on things is that we're operating with minimal information, and that will change as time goes by. Speculate if you wish, but remember that it's speculation. What I find interesting is how it's being spun by the powers that be, and some pretty horrible reactions from some segments of the media. 

Some people above seem to be better at staying on topic, so carry on.

al-Qa'bong

Stockholm wrote:

[This really takes the cake for grasping at straws. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck ITS A DUCK.

 

I suppose the easiest conclusion for many to draw is that Islam is a bogeyman and the obvious source of any wrongdoing.  This point of view is nurtured by a strong background in reading comic books as a child, following today's mainstream media, and having a catholic lack of interest in considering the complexities of any given situation.

NDPP

Ghislaine wrote:

 I am assuming this will be a military trial - or will it be a civilian one? Anyone know?

NDPP

According to the smirking chimp article I posted at #81 he will be tried by a military court.

Mass Shooting at Fort Hood: Collateral Damage

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/nov2009/pers-n07.shtml

"The mayhem at Fort Hood in Texas, which has left 13 men and women dead and 30 injured, is a by-product of the brutal wars in the Middle East and Central Asia. It is a form of 'Collateral Damage' for which the American political and military establishment is ultimately responsible.."

jas

Frmrsldr wrote:

Ann Scott Tyson wrote:

Fort Hood, the Texas military base that was the scene of a mass shooting Thursday, has been hard hit by the growing strain on the Army from multiple combat deployments -- with its personnel suffering the highest number of suicides among Army installations since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, according to official data.

After many years of lengthy war zone rotations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Army personnel are experiencing record rates of suicide, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and other mental health problems, as well as worsening alcohol and drug abuse.

The psychological toll on the all-volunteer force today is unprecedented, Army officials say, acknowledging that they do not know how much the Army can sustain before it breaks -- making the health of the force a major consideration in President Obama's current deliberations over sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan...

... A small but increasing number of soldiers undergoing the mental strain of repeated combat deployments are taking lives -- often their own.

This year, 117 active-duty Army soldiers were reported to have committed suicide, with 81 of those cases confirmed -- up from 103 suicides during the same period last year. Ten suicides have been reported at Fort Hood this year; more than 75 of its personnel have committed suicide since 2003. Fort Hood's high number of suicides is also linked to the fact that it is the Army's largest base, with more than 53,000 soldiers...

... Those who treat the mentally wounded, including doctors such as Hasan, are not immune from the symptoms. It is not uncommon for therapists who treat patients for post-traumatic stress disorder to experience some symptoms vicariously after hearing account after account of the horrors of the battlefield.

Hasan was a psychiatry intern at Walter Reed Army Medical Center from June 2003 to July 2009, Army officials said. In that position, he probably treated soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR200911...

I think this last article helps put this in perspective and puts the spotlight on the correct subject. He didn't want to go. Why could he not be discharged? When someone doesn't want to go, why is the US military forcing them to? This is the real problem. What's causing these soldiers to go berserk. It's possible his internet posts were an attempt to get himself discharged.

 

Kaspar Hauser

Some interesting speculation over at Counterpunch:

 

http://www.counterpunch.org/stahl11062009.html

 

"Simply stated, was Dr. Hassan, a devout Muslim, being sent to Iraq to work with U.S. interrogators as a sort of liaision between the American military and Iraqi detainees?...

(A)s one of Middle Eastern descent who strongly opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, if called upon to participate in interrogation sessions, using what to him might constitute dubious interrogation techniques, what happened at Fort Hood today may well have been a deranged response to a righteous concern."

clandestiny

http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Do-People-Hate-America/dp/0971394253

a fascinating point made in this book is the idea that popular entertainment/news over past 40 years or so have conditioned the amer. people to react in a certain way to circumstances; and there's really no need for all that foxnews etc distortioning of current events... though the opulence seems to insure the desired results. Foxnews/cnn are true opulence, you must admit. Also, too bad the guy was muslim; that is if he was indeed muslim, or if he was even a guy! The liars rule, and that is the trouble. I can't believe a word they say anymore...

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I find it interesting that yesterday another man entered a former workplace and opened fire on former co-workers killing one and wounding several. In the Fort Hood incident there is so much effort to find blame and, more specifically, to blame it on the shooter's religious affiliation. In fact, the common thread through so many similar mass killings is the nationality of the shooter. Hassan was born and raised an American.

Whether than trying to blame the "other" maybe the focus ought to be on a society engaged in a "war on" everything while glorifying mass murder, weapons, and with a foreign policy devoid of all tools other than massive, industrialized state violence. In other words, the culture is psychotic.

Unionist

Breaking news:

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8348129.stm]8 employees of U.S. military massacred by NATO pilots, dozens wounded[/url]

 

Fidel

I think this might be a real and actual case of what CIA officials themselves have referred to as blowback against their illegal, covert activities as well as the US military's. "Blowback" is rarely talked about in the newz media and is generally described as, "Yes we[we as in the CIA and US military, Brits, Saudis, Pakistanis etc] really were hand-in-glove with Islamic terrorists of the 1980's and 90's, but then, and quite suddenly, they went against us" And there is no proof whatsoever that America and allies actually ever broke ties with religious fundamentalists in Asia. In fact, there is much evidence that those cold war era ties still exist, and that America is still funding the proliferation of militant Islam in Central Asia and beyond.

In this case, Hasan was working with the US military. And then, and quite suddenly, he went against them. And unlike Gulbuddin Heymatyar and others who've carried out gladio operations against US citizens and military personnel, they will crucify Hasan for this, because he is the perfect bogeyman. In this particular instance the bogeyman is real.

Frmrsldr

Ghislaine wrote:

I am assuming this will be a military trial - or will it be a civilian one? Anyone know? 

If Maj. Hasan acted alone, "a military on military" incident, then he will be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

If there is a civillian, Al Qaeda or "terrorist group" connection, then the case will be tried in the Supreme Court.

Jingles

Hey everyone! I've been out of town for a couple of days. Did I miss anything?

So much for "no personal attacks", eh? That's alright. I'm a big boy. I do find it amusing that some of those here who express such outrage at my comments were either curiously silent or enthusiastic supporters of Israel's massacre in Gaza. Or is it a massacre only if Americans die?

Quote:
..not at some random group like soldiers who are sucked in through some back door draft and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It weren't in the wrong place. They were preparing to deploy in the Crusades to happily kill Muslims over there instead of over here. Then, when they got back, they would cry to the base psychiatrist about how traumatic is all was. That is, unless they were honest like Matthew [url=http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/]Hoh[/url] who said "I was never more happy than when our Iraq team whacked a bunch of guys". You know, Muslims. 

jas

So... murder + more murder = peace and justice and heroism?

I take it you support the invasion and occupations, then. Because that is their logic, too.

Michelle

Okay, this is probably long enough.

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