75th anniversary of Holodomor marked

123 posts / 0 new
Last post
Cueball Cueball's picture

I am using your friggin sources. But yeah, when you have nothing blame the source, even when its your own. Your other source, the pro-Serb Nationalist fanboy site, only references Winston Churchill, I don't see how much more "western" you could get.

Mihailovich was the British man in Yugoslavia, and he was immediatly recognized by the Western Allies, it was only after they realized that the Partisans were doing more actual fighting against the Nazi's that they started backing Tito as well. 

Quote:
The British Special Operations Executive were being sent to aid Mihailović's forces beginning with the autumn of 1941. Mihailović rose in rank, becoming the Minister of War of the exile government in January 11, 1942 and General and Deputy Commander-in-Chief on June 17 the same year.

Draža Mihailović

Its amazing, you just make this shit up as you go along.

Fidel

from Serbian Unity talking about U.S. airman Felman's experiences with Mihailovich's chetniks:

Quote:

Felman explained why the forces under Mihailovich had avoided direct attacks on German troops. At the start of the conflict, the Serbian guerrillas had engaged the German forces directly and had inflicted high casualties. The German command, however, responded with retaliations against the Serbian civilian population. For every German soldier killed, one hundred Serbs would be executed. In October, 1941, approximately 8,000 Serbian civilians, many of them schoolchildren in the city of Kragujevac, were rounded up and executed in retaliation for the killing of German troops. The cost became too high. So Mihailovichs forces engaged in what Felman termed Subtle Sabotage, sabotage that could not be detected. Moreover, German troops would no longer be randomly attacked but the focus would be on German military officers and key military leaders. Felman actually participated in acts of Subtle Sabotage with Mihailovichs Chetnik troops. He described how Chetnik forces had hollowed out pieces of coal and instead placed TNT in the core and deposited them on the coal car of a German transport train bound for Roumania. Finely ground-up gravel was placed on the axle gears of trucks and trains which would gradually breakdown.

This of course was later in the war, but the German supply lines to and from Romania and Balkans were varied for a purpose ie. not always the same routes due to past experiences with guerilla sabotage

Cueball Cueball's picture

Ahh coal shipment to Romania was sabotaged. I see. That has nothing to do with transport of oil from Romania to the Russia front. Regardless, none of that has anything to do with delaying the begining of Barbarossa. You will find not a single reliable source, or military historian, who will suggest that the insurgency caused a delay in the invasion of Russia.

This because there was no meaningful insurgency, until after the invasion of Russia had begun. 

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Ahh coal shipment to Romania was sabotaged. I see. That has nothing to do with transport of oil from Romania to the Russia front.

I never mentioned anything about transporting oil directly from Romania  to the Russian front. That was you, I'm afraid. What I have to say about that is, poor Canada! In fact, the Panzers were running out of fuel and supplies, and with lead Panzers of Hitler's army centre group stopped somewhere 20-30 Km outside Moscow by December 5th. That's as close as they would get before being beaten back by the Red Army. His kingdom for a steady supply line of fuel and food for the troops. 

Quote:

This because there was no meaningful insurgency, until after the invasion of Russia had begun. 

Centre group lead Panzers were right there, about a dozen miles from Moscow and Stalin holed up in the bowels of the Kremlin whille over two million were evacuated from the city. Victory was so close they could only savour it until supplies and reinforcements could arrive. It was late. It was December, in fact, and the cruel Russian winter about to set in. Hitler and Paulus and Bader et al were probably thinking, damn those Serbs for delaying lebensraum, the fascist war of annihilation against communist  Russia!

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

I never mentioned anything about transporting oil directly from Romania to the Russian front.

Now you are evern distorting the public record of this thread:

Fidel wrote:

The Germans needed to secure an oil/fuel supply line from Romania through Yugoslavia. The Panzers and GM trucks wouldnt run on gummy bears, believe it or no.

You just make shit up.

Fidel

There is nothing in that comment about a direct transport of oil from Romania to the Russian front, as the crow flies, and especially not "a highway to Russia" as someone we both know let slip with somewhere above.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Ok then which "Panzers and GM trucks" that don't "run on gummy bears" needed this "secure oil line from Romania through Yugoslavia", if not  "the Panzers [that] were running out of fuel and supplies... ...20-30 Km outside Moscow by December 5th"? 

Fidel

We're talking about overall fuel supply for the Wehrmacht and support vehicles. And there were several divisions riding around Yugoslavia and Balkans burning up precious juice and drawing down overall supply. Inadequate oil and fuel reserves were reasons for a punch into the Balkans and Romania. There never was a steady oil supply, and that was the problem. They didnt completely run out of guzzaline and oil outside Moscow and Stalingrad and Leningrad, but they were waiting for backup supplies which would trickle to the front by various routes after that.

As I was saying in another thread, German field commanders devised a plan of last resort toward the end of the war which some WW II  historians have claimed may have been successful. But Hitler fancied himself a Roman battle line tactician, and he denied them any chance for victory in Russia. They slowly ran out of fuel at the gates, like your tedious notes to me have come close to the truth with some prodding.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

We're talking about overall fuel supply for the Wehrmacht and support vehicles. 

No we were not, we were talking about you making up stuff in your head, such as that the "Germans needed to secure an oil/fuel supply line from Romania through Yugoslavia." That is what you said.

fidel wrote:

And there were several divisions riding around Yugoslavia and Balkans burning up precious juice and drawing down overall supply.

And again this is more stuff you made up in your head, because the German army in the Balkans as of June 22nd 1941, was made up of the 5th Mountain Divisions, the 6th Mountain division, the 164th Infantry division, and a compliment of four other divisions, the 704th Infantry, the 714th Infantry, the 717th Infantry, and the 718th Infantry. None of the latter had any motorized equipment at all, as they were second line units staffed with WW I officers, and overage men, and all the motorized equipment was in Russia.  

It was not until 1943 that any German mechanized or motorized units reappeared in the Balkans, and these were sent to act as a reaction force to be used against an Anglo-American invasion of Greece or Yugoslavia, not to fight Chetniks.

Fidel

That was after June, and after the start of barbarossa, which took place before the month of July. They ran out of gas, like your nonsensical com-posts in this thread are now broken down and "out of gas." Some advice to you: Stay home in Toronto, and surely dont ever consider invading Russia. You'd likely repeat all of Hitler's worst mistakes and end up beating a hasty retreat from Moscow and bogged down in freezing winter weather at the infernal kessel in Russian crossfire with Stalin's organs raining shells down on your ill advised and misled troops.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Exactly Fidel. The German army left the Balkans with all their tanks and equipment, having defeated the Yugoslavs, the Greeks and the British, and then went off to Russia. Five weeks late because they had to drive down to Athens and back. Then once they left, in July the Chetniks and the Partisans began attacking the feeble force of old men, without modern equipment, tanks or trucks that the Germans left behind to look after the situation.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
Fidel wrote:

We're talking about overall fuel supply for the Wehrmacht and support vehicles. 

No we were not, we were talking about you making up stuff in your head, such as that the "Germans needed to secure an oil/fuel supply line from Romania through Yugoslavia." That is what you said.

And I pointed out a source describing a railway route from Serbia to Romania which was sabotaged by Mihailovich and chetniks. Go find yourself a WW II era map of the Balkans and Romania showing railway lines and land routes leading to and from the oil fields at Ploesti. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yes you did. Probably the Lubjana line through Austria/Italy.

That was coal being shipped to Romania through Yugoslavia, not  "an oil/fuel supply line from Romania through Yugoslavia." They did not need to transport oil through Yugoslavia, because the oil was going the other way, to Russia, where the tanks and truck were.

Fidel

So youre saying they shipped coal to Romania by rail via Serbia, and then shipped fresh air in empty boxcars on the return trip from oil-rich Romania? Interesting. It's no wonder they lost the war.

Cueball Cueball's picture

No. I am saying that the oil fields in Romania came complete with refineries, and so there was no reason to send the product to Hamburg before sending it to Russia. Alternately, if they wanted to send it to Berlin, the direct route is through Hungary, through Prague and then Berlin. I suggest you get a straight edge and draw lines on a map so that you can get things straight, instead of twisting up the facts in your ideological fixations.

In fact, your guerrilla campaign was so unsuccesful against the oil production in Romania that the Americans and British used high altitude bombing to try and put the oil fields out of action. Hence the story of the pilot who was saved by the Chetniks. What was he doing in the Balkans? Bombing the oil fields, of course.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

No. I am saying that the oil fields in Romania came complete with refineries, and so there was no reason to send the product to Hamburg before sending it to Russia.

What about the Danube? It was Nazi Germany's most important supply line. If you look at a map, it's runs right past the Romanian port of Giurgiu, which is due south of Ploiesti's oil fields - wholly south of that treacherous Carpathian mountain range -  and due south of those oil refineries you mentioned. And it skirts Serbia, Belgrade etc on the way to Vienna and Germany. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Here is the WW II era map, showing how the rail link goes Bucharest, Budapest, Vienna with a branch heading from there into northern Italy through Lubjana, as I pointed out before. Oil from Romania does not have to cross Yugoslavia at all, in order to get to the Reich.

 

 

Here is a direct link to the larger original: http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/balkan/Maps/3.jpg

Fidel

This is from The US strategic bombing survey of 1945:

(and Map highlighting course of the Danube) for your convenience

Quote:
The German oil supply was tight throughout the war, and was a controlling factor in military operations. The chief source of supply, and the only source for aviation gasoline, was 13 synthetic plants together with a small production from three additional ones that started operations in 1944. The major sources of products refined from crude oil were the Ploesti oil fields in Rumania and the Hungarian fields which together accounted for about a quarter of the total supply of liquid fuels in 1943. In addition, there was a small but significant Austrian and domestic production. The refineries at Ploesti were attacked, beginning with a daring and costly low-level attack in August 1943. These had only limited effects; deliveries increased until April 1944 when the attacks were resumed. The 1944 attacks, together with mining of the Danube, materially reduced Rumanian deliveries. In August 1944, Russian occupation eliminated this source of supply and dependence on the synthetic plants became even greater than before.

It sounds like the Germans were shipping oil from Romania via the Danube before an allied bombing campaign and mining of that river highway was carried out. And if you trace the Danube on a map, it doesnt traverse north to the Russian front where the Panzers and GM and Ford and Opel trucks were needing fuel and other supplies. The Danube does, however, meander South-East from Germany to  Vienna, on to Belgrade and on to the riparian port of Giurgiu. Once it's loaded onto an oil barge or large vessel in any great amount, it takes time to offload. I think the shrewd thing to do would be to send it all the way, and most likely there were serreptitious shipments of fuel by rail.  I would have to surmize that all possible routes for shipping oil from Romania and Hungary were exploited by the Germans.

LeighT

well, i just wrote a note here that evaporated into cyberspace, so i'll keep this quick,

- thanks for the all the info on WW2 dynamics amongst Ukraine's neighbours.  i'll have to bookmark your debate for future reference !

- Stalin was in charge of Ukraine for all of the Holocaust period, minus some of Hitler's southern jaunts into Ukraine.  I'm not suggesting you need to go into those campaigns in detail.  I don't want your wit and energy to become entirely dissipated in this thread- babblers probably miss your presence elsewhere!

- remind, Kostash is an amazing writer, and thank you for the quote. 

- please forgive me if i'm not able to touch base often, but appreciate that babble is a place where items like the Holodomor can be posted, and considered.

 

LeighT

remind, you ought to clarify though that the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has a clear policy that it does not itself support or fund political parties.  I could not find that piece of info you refer to anywhere on the UCC site, in fact all I found were items which asked major parties in the election questions, and provided their answers publicly.  Elsewhere I found a specific statement clarifying that they do not promote or support any specific party. This is standard practice for NGOs, and most groups in elections provide questions related to their mandate and candidate responses.  so please clarify where you got the information that the UCC gave 5 million to Harper. 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

LeighT wrote:

- Stalin was in charge of Ukraine for all of the Holocaust period, minus some of Hitler's southern jaunts into Ukraine.  I'm not suggesting you need to go into those campaigns in detail.  I don't want your wit and energy to become entirely dissipated in this thread- babblers probably miss your presence elsewhere!

Germany occupied the Western Ukraine in the summr of 1941, up to an including a line that ran from Tula roughly along the Donetz river, including the isthmus that connects Ukraine to the Crimea. The Wermacht made the Ukraine its main concern in 1942, continuing to expand into the Soviet Union up to the Volga and Stalingrad, capturing Kharkov and Rostov on the way. They held this position nominally until winter 1942/43, when Soviet counter-attacks cut off the 6th Army in Stalingrad. Abandoning the garisson to its fate after a failed rescue opertaion, the Germany army retreated to the zone around Rostov.

Most of the Ukraine remained in German hands until after the Battle of Kurks in the summer of 1943, and the Western Ukraine, to the West of Kiev and the Dnepr, up Galicia, was not cleared of German forces until the late 1944.

I don't know what you mean by the "Holocaust Period" but the order to carry out the systematic (as opposed to ad hoc) slaughter of Jews and other undesirables in the concentration camps was not made until early 1942 at the Wanssee Conference, where the "final solution" was approved by delegates from various arms of the National Socialist state. The wholesale slaughter of inmates in the camps was rationalized, and accelerated from this point to the end of the war, and the bulk of the killing at the camps was done between 1942 and 1945.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
where the "final solution" was approved by delegates from various arms of the National Socialist state.

Except that socialism was out the window by 1936, and all German and international industrialist and banking friends won no-bid contracts for: munitions manufacture, infrastructure building, communications - imports financing - laundering of money and gold looted in surrounding couintries, and mass transit railway tickets(round trip prices for one-way travel) in blocks of 500, to name a few. Slave labour has at times been an ambitious dream for capitalists everywhere.

Pages

Topic locked