Are Male and Female Brains Biologically Different?

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Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Of course I can't stop you from spreading these same falsehoods that we hear from the conversion therapy crew - that LGBT people are sick, and I can't stop you from holding these opinions, but I will continue to point out that you are not telling the truth, and that all the evidence says otherwise. 

You need to drop your obvious extreme prejudice against mental illness or disorder and against the trans gender people who want it to remain in the DSM. There is no shame in having a mental disorder.  It isn't an insult. It doesn't mean "conversion" is an option. It doesn't even rule out physical causes because that isn't the way that medical science works. The treatment for transgenderism remains accepting the individual's self-defined identity because that is the only successful treatment at this time.

The issue is much more complex than you allow for. Generally speaking gay people do not want to be changed. The binary type of transgender person that does wish to transition does see their condition as a disorder that requires medical treatment even if it is only hormonal. They do believe that something went wrong during pre-birth development that left them with an identity that does not match their physical presentation.

Many gay people consider the potential existence of a gay marker to be of mixed blessing because they don't want people to consider it something that needs to be corrected. Something to test for pre-birth so it can be changed. From that perspective finding a marker is a threat even though it would prove a physical cause. They see homosexually as something that occurs naturally and is normal if not the norm. No need for medical intervention.

Most binary transgendered people do want a marker found. They do want something that could be corrected pre birth. They do want their physical characteristics to match their gender identity. They do consider it a medical disorder.

Maybe some people are born with a gender identity and others are not. Maybe everyone is or nobody is. Right now it remains a matter of opinion not science.

If it is  removed from the DSM that does not mean it will be classified as a physical disorder. It means it will be much easier to refuse medical treatment or to treat only the associated mental illnesses of depression or anxiety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

The diagnosis was reclassified to better align it with medical understanding of the condition and to remove the stigma associated with the term disorder.[5][6...The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."[1] Some transgender people and researchers support declassification of the condition because they say the diagnosis pathologizes gender variance and reinforces the binary model of gender.[5][8]

critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress

Like it or not, stigma or not, emotional distress not physical symptoms defines gender dysphoria. If you are transgender but not experiencing any emotional distress over it then you are fine. No need for intervention.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Why not accept the subjective experience transgendered people have of themselves?

What do you mean by "accept"?  And how does that intersect with "believe"?

We have people whose subjective experience of themself is that they're clairvoyant, or that their God imbued them with an immortal soul.  But there exists no real objective proof that clairvoyancy is a real thing, or that our bodies have a soul inside them.  We certainly have to "accept" that these people believe these things, but what more are we to do?  I'm fine with letting them believe as they wish to believe, but when has it ever stopped there?

6079_Smith_W

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM Pondering, even though it has been reclassified to make it clear that it is not a disorder. I am not aware of anyone arguing for it to be removed altogether. It certainly didn't say that in anything you posted.

And I am not sure I understand these markers that you are talking about. And "correcting pre-birth"? Where did you get that from?

Considering that we are all on a spectrum, at least when it comes to orientation, how do you imagine that even works?

Pondering

JKR wrote:
Do individuals determine their own gender or is it at least to some extent out of their control?

In my own opinion other than procreative functions it is entirely a social construct but that as we are groomed into our proper categories we come to embrace these constructs as explanations for the way we are so it isn't chosen.

 That these things (in my opinion) are social constructs and culturally dependent doesn't mean that transgenderism doesn't exist or doesn't have a physical or chemical component. 

It is quite possible that we have a sense of being male or female, of being in the right body, completely disconnected from gender roles and sexual orientation: that if there were virtually no gender roles transgender people would still want to transition.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that this sense of being male or female does exist as a result of physical or biological causes and that transgendered people really are the opposite sex to what they appear to be. Someone with that condition is going to use gender norms to "prove" they are the opposite sex because there is no other way to convince people. The only other thing they can say is they just know. So it is very natural understandable argument to use gender roles as justification. It's still wrong.

It is this insistence that girls liking pink and frou frou stuff is an inherent quality of femaleness that so offends feminists because it is not true and the excuse to exclude us from all sorts of male activity has always been that we are inherently different from men not just physically but mentally and emotionally.

I believe that our roles were dictated by physical conditions not mental suitablility. A woman who is 9 months pregnant isn't going on the hunt because of physical limitations nor because she likes cooking. From a practical perspective it's better she do tasks around the cave. At puberty female bodies put consumed energy into creating a complex reproductive system. Males grow larger and develop muscles suitable to their biological role of doing what females can't while they are gestating and keeping infants alive until they can consume food.

Gender roles became entrenched because women continued having to be the ones who produced babies for the continuation of the species and biologically men continued to have the strongest biggest muscles.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I want to be a firefighter. You're telling me that I can't because I have boobs and a vagina? You are telling me that we need men for these roles because they are buff?

quizzical

i understand what pondering is saying from a historical biological social construct. i agree because of scientific adaptation and all.

and yes you can become a firefighter i did and was pretty damn buff from running up and down mountains carrying equipment.

 am very short but outlasted outworked lots of men and women.  i was a long distance cross country runner in high school and parental units took me hiking almost every weekend from like age of 1 so i had training and experience.

 

 

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

I want to be a firefighter. You're telling me that I can't because I have boobs and a vagina? You are telling me that we need men for these roles because they are buff?

To a certain extent, yes that may very well be true! But in reality, there are female firefighters

Here's the flip side (or maybe just one extreme example of many). I'm a male and when younger wanted to have children. But because I have a penis and testicles and no vagina etc etc etc, I can never give birth to a child. I can only father. I can never feel that bond with a child that only mothers really have!

Now this above example is pretty much written in stone, and I'm sure there are other examples.

Actually forget it, I don't know what I'm trying to say here?!?!?!

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I can tell you right now that my partner has just as deep a bond with our daughters as I do. And I have friends who are as deeply bonded with their adopted children as I am with the ones I’ve given birth to. 

That essentialist nonsense can stop right now. 

quizzical

totally Timebandit. my daughter's bio father died when she was 5 but he was maybe more bonded with her than me. 

my partner, her stepfather, is completely devoted to her and our grandson. love is love. grandson's bio dad is a deeply involved and bonded dad. gender plays no part.

6079_Smith_W

And when it comes to hard work and stamina I have noticed zero difference between men and women when it comes to planting trees. Except I have seen more men who think they are indestructable overdo it, and wind up blowing their arms or legs up.

Yes, discounting the obvious pressure and programming that gets levelled at kids based on their sex, and the hazards women face that men do not, there is little difference IMO. Certainly nothing that will tell you who an individual person is going to be. It is kind of an absurd line of reasoning.

JKR

Anti-gay bullying at Botwood school like 'a civil war'; CBC News; December 5, 2018;
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/botwood-gsa-student...

Quote:
A "civil war" has broken out inside a Botwood high school, according to members of the central Newfoundland school's Gay-Straight Alliance, who allege abuse and even threats of violence toward the club and its members.

Two Botwood Collegiate students, including a club founder, say there has been escalating harassment since the Gay-Straight Alliance was started this school year — beginning with vandalism of the club's posters, and other rainbow posters, then moving to even physical threats.

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM Pondering, even though it has been reclassified to make it clear that it is not a disorder. I am not aware of anyone arguing for it to be removed altogether. It certainly didn't say that in anything you posted.

And I am not sure I understand these markers that you are talking about. And "correcting pre-birth"? Where did you get that from?

Considering that we are all on a spectrum, at least when it comes to orientation, how do you imagine that even works?

I totally agree that sexual orientation is on a spectrum but there are still scientists looking for a physical marker or event that determines sexual orientation. By "marker" I mean any physical means of identification. Doesn't have to be a physical body part, like a specific section of the brain. Last I heard they were thinking about hormones that change during pregnancy at the time we become sexually distinct from one another. I've read we all start off female. That makes no sense to me but I'm not a scientist.

The term transgender is being broadened to include anyone who doesn't agree that they are men or women because they don't fit the gender roles assigned to the sexes. That supports the feminist point of view that gender is a social construct people are molded into not that there is a gender spectrum.

Transgendered people who reject both male and female identities generally don't want to be changed. Any mental distress they feel is from how they are treated by society not alienation from their physical body.

The type of transgender person who believes they were born in the wrong body would much rather have been born in the right body. They do see it as a birth defect. Otherwise there would be nothing to change.

Illness, dysphoria, disorder, it's all semantics. Professionals don't even have clear definitions of illness or disorder. There is no evidence that people are born gendered or that it exists as anything other than a social construct. It would blow up the internet if there were solid proof that we are born gendered.

6079_Smith_W

Actually it is not semantics. In this case words have meaning.

They changed the term to bring it in line with medical understanding that dysphoria is not an illness. Not just to remove stigma, but because the former classification was incorrect.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

What, then, does sex reassignment surgery treat?  It's pretty major surgery, in some cases publicly funded.  We don't publicly fund surgery for someone who believes they were born with the wrong nose, even if they feel distress.

Pondering

What Magoo said.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Actually it is not semantics. In this case words have meaning.

They changed the term to bring it in line with medical understanding that dysphoria is not an illness. Not just to remove stigma, but because the former classification was incorrect.

At this time gender dysphoria is not a physical condition or ailment. If it isn't a mental disorder either then there is no justification for medical insurance to cover hormones or surgery including medicare and it shouldn't be in the DSM. I fully support trans people getting free of charge whatever medical treatment they need to lead their best life.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

Who is willing to date trans-people. I did not expect to see numbers this extreme.

  • 1.8% of straight women
  • 3.3% of straight men
  • 11.5% of gay men
  • 29% of lesbians
  • Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) - almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’
  • transgender or nonbinary, 89% were willing to date another trans person.
  • 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women were willing to date a trans woman
  • 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman
  • 50% of trans-inclusive straight men said they’d date a trans man
  • 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man

So 28% of lesbians say they would date a trans person, but 69% of them would date a trans man not a trans woman.

98.5% of straight men would not date a trans woman.

Most people, male or female, who support trans rights do not believe trans people actually are the opposite sex to what they were born with. They are prepared to accept trans people changing their gender presentation, even physically, but they draw the line at sex. They are lying to trans people when they pretend to believe not just accept.

The article states this:

This is the first study to ever attempt to quantify the extent of trans discrimination when it comes to romantic and sexual relationships.

If that is true, even close to true, WOW! That amounts to medical malpractice. Romantic sexual relationships are not for everyone but they are an extremely important part of most people's lives.

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation...

That doesn't surprise me at all. It's called sexual orientation not gender orientation. Trans men have more options because they maintain their original genitals. From the perspective of a lesbian or a man trans men still have the part that turns them on. Surgery for trans women is more successful, it can be extremely convincing from what I have read. Even so from the statistics it seems it is not leading to significantly greater acceptance from the people who want to interact with vaginas sexually speaking but unlike trans men they no longer have the part that most people are attracted to.

Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women

Sexual orientation is not discriminatory. It isn't based on gender. It is based on sex, as in male and female.

Supporting trans theory uncritically because it is mean not and it is no skin off your nose is dishonest and harmful. It creates post-op expectations. Progressive men are all supportive and protective but suddenly at the bedroom door they are not quite woman enough.

Individually I can't say if any men here would date a trans woman or if the women would date a trans man but statistically the chances are low.

I don't want to be mean or disrespectful but I do want to be real. There is no evidence that we are born gendered. Despite the existence of intersexed people there is no evidence that someone can be born with a usual set of sexual characteristics and have them all the opposite of what they were supposed to be.

Some transgender people limit themselves to hormones, other progress to surgery.  A trans woman who doesn't progress to surgery may be just as trans gender as one who does. As Magoo pointed out this is major surgery. It is irreversible. It causes infertility. It can mean giving up sexual satisfaction. It can't be reversed. Trans women pay a very high price for full transition.

Pretending that we fully accept trans women as the same as natal women is gas-lighting them when it seems for the most part it isn't true. What we are accepting of is allowing them to express the gender role assigned to the opposite sex. It isn't just radical feminists that don't believe trans women are female. It's most people. They just won't admit it until they get to the bedroom door.

Trans people, especially trans women, need the facts not just theory before they take irreversible steps. Those facts include the severe limitations that will be placed on their sex lives and the fact that while they will recieve a lot of outward support it doesn't mean people actually believe they are women unless they pass. Even if they pass most people especially straight men will still reject them as sexual partners.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Pondering,

Why did you post that? It is so nasty!!!

JKR

Pondering wrote:

I don't want to be mean or disrespectful but I do want to be real. There is no evidence that we are born gendered. Despite the existence of intersexed people there is no evidence that someone can be born with a usual set of sexual characteristics and have them all the opposite of what they were supposed to be.


What were they "supposed to be" and who is in position to determine that?

Personally I'm very happy to see the establishment and enhancement of trans-rights and I think that the growth of trans-rights in our society benefits us all.

6079_Smith_W

Misfit wrote:

Pondering,

Why did you post that? It is so nasty!!!

Want to know what's even funnier and nastier than that? When a trans person dares to hold a support meeting to talk about how it feels to deal with that stigma she gets accused of a conspiracy to rape and force women to have sex with her. That is the degree of hatred we are dealing with here.

And considering Pondering is just repeating arguments that have been debunked (like the insurance one) I am not sure why other than she doesn't want to admit she is wrong.

As for what the purpose of surgery and treatment is, I should think that would be obvious, given that the result of dysphoria can be stress and depression. So I'm not sure why it is being taken as a rhetorical point in favour of the illness lie.

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Misfit wrote:

Pondering,

Why did you post that? It is so nasty!!!

Want to know what's even funnier and nastier than that? When a trans person dares to hold a support meeting to talk about how it feels to deal with that stigma she gets accused of a conspiracy to rape and force women to have sex with her. That is the degree of hatred we are dealing with here.

And considering Pondering is just repeating arguments that have been debunked (like the insurance one) I am not sure why other than she doesn't want to admit she is wrong.

As for what the purpose of surgery and treatment is, I should think that would be obvious, given that the result of dysphoria can be stress and depression. So I'm not sure why it is being taken as a rhetorical point in favour of the illness lie.

First. Trans women deserve to have all rights afforded to other women and so do trans men deserve the rights men have. See the way we say that? Men's rights. Women's rights. Shouldn't it be people's rights?

The problem with our world is not trans people. Trans people may be the cure. Especially those who are gender queer or fluid. They are decoupling sex and gender.

Some people are transgender but choose not to transition due not only to the medical challenges but because life for someone who has transitioned is not necessarily better for all transgender people individually especially if they have past puberty and have strong characteristics that indicate their sex. Sometimes it is still the best solution but not always.

Someone like Jenna Talackova is physically very feminine. She is unlikely be be challenged anywhere. She is beautiful which gives women status. I don't know when she transitioned, before or after puberty, but there is no doubt that people who transition before puberty have a more convincing physique therefore have an easier time living their gender identity.

I would be surprised if any trans woman (or man) raped anyone. It's the opposite. Trans people are the ones that get raped and far worse.

I don't know if rape is even normal human behavior. That is, does rape exist in all societies?

I am absolutely not claiming it is a mental illness. I am saying we don't know what it is and right now we only have two choices. Mental or physical. If an illness has not been identifed as physical there is only one other alternative. Mental. It doesn't mean it isn't a physical ailment. Epilepsy was classified mental until a physical cause was found. It is absolutely within the realm of possibility that a physical cause for transgenderism will also be found. Autism is in the DSM too.

Let's say it is proven that there is some physical or chemical (I say or chemical but chemical is physical) aspect we are born with that does determine gender identity. Not in the simplistic pink dresses sense, a marker of gender identity not gender expression.

The question then becomes what do we do to correct it? Maybe whatever this marker is would be very difficult to impossible to change. In that case the only choice would be transitioning people as we do now but starting from the moment of diagnosis.

Alternatively if it is an easy chemical switch, a prescription will do the trick and the individual will identify with the expected gender, no surgeries required, that would be the preferred treatment from a medical perspective but the idea is much more repellant.

Why do I say that? Because our gender identity is so much of who we are. I don't want a pill that would make me a man.  My sense of who I am is inextricably linked with being a woman. I would guess that is how trans women feel too. Many wouldn't want a pill that would "correct" their gender identity even if it were the easier medical intervention.

Many (all?) societies have two-spirited people or "ladyboys" that didn't have access to medical intervention. Maybe the reason trans people have to transition physically is connected to our society's rigid gender roles. Maybe if we honored them they wouldn't want to choose one binary or the other.

Say I am in a gym locker/changing room with 8 other women getting changed. A male janitor walks in. Women will be covering themselves and screeching for him to get out. None of these 8 women would be afraid he is going to rape them nor would I be. My emotional reaction would still be one of feeling intimidated and feeling the need to cover myself for protection. If the gym told me he is gay so it doesn't matter so they will continue to send him in I would stop going to the gym. Even if I have been culturally programmed to feel the way that I do it doesn't change my reaction. I still feel the way I do.

Regardless of whether or not we are born gendered, trans people still feel the way that they do. The desire for proof and for it not to be "mental" is rooted in societal prejudices against mental illness because we don't understand it and we fear it. If it is mild there is strong suspicion that it is character weakness. If it is serious it's scary because people are percieved to be acting without reason therefore are completely unpredictable.

Autism is a physical condition but it is still in the DMS. It's treated with some of the same drugs as depression, anxiety, and epilepsy are treated with coupled with behavioral therapy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_transsexual_and_transgen...

In the DSM-V, gender identity disorder was replaced with gender dysphoria; the focus is no longer on identity, but on the distress that trans people may experience when their biological sexes do not line up with said identities. Persons with gender dysphoria are also no longer classified by sexuality.[5]

Distress is emotional like anxiety and depression. If a trans gender person is not experiencing emotional distress there is nothing wrong with them. Like it or not medical treatment is not being offered because the medical community agrees that people are born gendered. It is being offered as the only means of successfully treating the mental distress.

Our knowledge and treatment of mental illness is barely beyond blood-letting. I don't even like the word. It should be changed to neurological or something.

Considering that there is no proof that we are born with a gender identity, and that we know so much of gender behavior is guided by cultural norms, why the outrage that transgenderism even might be a mental disorder?

Could it be that without realizing it you are following the logic that if it is a mental disorder then it isn't "real"? Or that it means trans people are "crazy"?

Misfit, to answer your previous question, that men are more buff on average due to biological development during puberty doesn't mean individual women can't be more buff than a man or buff enough to perform the same tasks.

We can't pretend that puberty doesn't happen and doesn't differenciate between the physical capabilities of males and females. The problem in my eyes is the prejudices that lead us to assign gender roles.

JKR

Pondering wrote:

Considering that there is no proof that we are born with a gender identity, and that we know so much of gender behavior is guided by cultural norms, why the outrage that transgenderism even might be a mental disorder?

Maybe you should start a thread entitled "Is transgenderism a mental disorder?"

6079_Smith_W

Pondering wrote:

First. Trans women deserve to have all rights afforded to other women and so do trans men deserve the rights men have. See the way we say that? Men's rights. Women's rights. Shouldn't it be people's rights?

You do understand that charter rights and protections apply to all people, right? That goes for discrimination based on gender expression and identity too.

As for your other speculation about magic pills and stuff, I don't quite know what to make of it, and I don't think it has any relevance to the very real problems around this. Like the lack of access to medical professionals able to help people with gender dysphoria.

Currently there is one doctor doing referrals in Saskatchewan, who first opened her clinic to address "shockingly high" suicide rates among LGBT people. And most everything else is out of province. A friend of mine had to go to Ontario for his surgery.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/psychiatrist-transgender-hea...

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/saskatchewan-transgender-community-says-hea...

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/new-clinic-for-transgender-a...

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:
 You do understand that charter rights and protections apply to all people, right? That goes for discrimination based on gender expression and identity too. 

You do understand the concepts of men's rights and women's rights still exist?

6079_Smith_W wrote:
 As for your other speculation about magic pills and stuff, I don't quite know what to make of it, and I don't think it has any relevance to the very real problems around this. 

Magic pills, you mean like hormone treatments? If gender identity is a thing that people are born with then it would likely be directly treatable and likely less extreme then gender reassignment surgery. Given the extreme impact hormones have on physical development and emotions it is likely that if gender identity exists as something we are born with a hormone like substance is probably involved. It is at least as likely as a brain structure to be the cause. I think far more so.

6079_Smith_W wrote:
 Currently there is one doctor doing referrals in Saskatchewan, who first opened her clinic to address "shockingly high" suicide rates among LGBT people. And most everything else is out of province. A friend of mine had to go to Ontario for his surgery. 

Which is why I point out the difficulty in getting treatment if it isn't a medical disorder/illness/condition. I have said in pretty much every post that I support 100% coverage for any and all medical services required for trans people to live their best life according to them regardless of how it is medically classified.

In answer to Misfit again, the only people associating transgenderism with sexual deviance are right-wingers and their concern isn't rape it's pedophilia.

Recently, I think in Toronto, a man was found dead behind a wall in a woman's public washroom. What on earth could he have been doing there? I suspect he was aiming for pictures not rape. If someone takes an upskirt photo of me as long as my face isn't in it there is no real impact. It's still an invasion of my privacy that freaks me out and makes me feel like prey.

Natal women are not afraid that trans women will rape them or upskirt them or anything else like that. They are afraid that men willing to hide between walls to hunt us will simply put on women's clothing and make-up and get in that way.

It is dishonest to misrepresent women's concerns by suggesting they are afraid of being raped by trans women. The fear is of men dressing up like trans women not trans women.

Even so I fully support trans people using the facilities they are most comfortable with. That means welcoming both trans women and trans men to the women's facilities.

Do you believe trans men should be excluded from the women's restrooms?

6079_Smith_W

No, actually they are all rights and protections which apply to all people. There is no such thing as "men's rights" or "women's rights".

Pondering wrote:

Recently, I think in Toronto, a man was found dead behind a wall in a woman's public washroom. What on earth could he have been doing there? I suspect he was aiming for pictures not rape. If someone takes an upskirt photo of me as long as my face isn't in it there is no real impact. It's still an invasion of my privacy that freaks me out and makes me feel like prey.

And I'd ask what that has to do with anything other than perpetuating vile stereotypes against trans people. If, as you say, this isn't about trans people then why are you bringing it up?

And I think people should use whichever toilet they feel most comfortable in. I think it is up to the community to provide the right options. 

And the problem in getting treatment isn't classification, or the lack of your pills that will magically align people with their identity. it is that there AREN'T ENOUGH DOCTORS. Is that clear enough? Did you even read the article?

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No, actually they are all rights and protections which apply to all people. There is no such thing as "men's rights" or "women's rights".

Pondering wrote:

Recently, I think in Toronto, a man was found dead behind a wall in a woman's public washroom. What on earth could he have been doing there? I suspect he was aiming for pictures not rape. If someone takes an upskirt photo of me as long as my face isn't in it there is no real impact. It's still an invasion of my privacy that freaks me out and makes me feel like prey.

And I'd ask what that has to do with anything other than perpetuating vile stereotypes against trans people. If, as you say, this isn't about trans people then why are you bringing it up?

And I think people should use whichever toilet they feel most comfortable in. I think it is up to the community to provide the right options. 

And the problem in getting treatment isn't classification, or the lack of your pills that will magically align people with their identity. it is that there AREN'T ENOUGH DOCTORS. Is that clear enough? Did you even read the article?

Do you even bother reading or do you just skim?

Misfit brought up the issue of women being afraid trans women will rape them. I explained I have never heard of such a thing. What they are afraid of is men impersonating trans women. It is a valid fear given the lengths men go to. That it is a valid fear doesn't mean trans women should be prevented from using the facilities of their choice. Trans women have equally good reason to fear men.

We can defend the rights of both trans women and trans men using the women's restrooms if they so choose without mocking women who are justifiably afraid of MEN. Men. not trans women. Trans women are not men.

All of us, natal women, trans women, trans men, are all afraid of violence from heterosexual men.

There is also no magical surgery or magical hormones that will align people with their identity. There is no magical x-ray to tell us if someone's brain is male or female at birth.

Transgenderism is a mismatch between a person's gender identity and physical sex characteristics.

If we are born with a gender identity that means it has some sort of physical existence unless you believe it is part of the mysterious magical soul.

I don't believe in the soul. So to me, if gender identity exists at birth it has some sort of physical manifestation (assuming it isn't magic). It must happen during the gestation period. Either chromones or hormones or something we haven't yet discovered that makes gender identity separate from primary sexual characteristics must exist if we are born with a gender identity separate from having the sexual characteristics of a male or a female. We aren't just sprinkled with fairy dust at birth.

The sex of a baby can only be determined after 6 weeks but that is really early. The baby is the size of a pea at that point.  If gender identity exists separate from sex we don't know if it comes first, at the same time, or after. If gender identity exists separate from sex then something is happening during pregnancy to interfere with the identity matching the sex. Maybe more horomones or fewer homones or different hormones. Maybe it is a physical structure in the brain we haven't found yet.

I don't believe gender identity exists at birth but if it does it has to be something identifiable. I'm certainly not adverse to science trying to confirm it's existence.

This is why I said we found a new human organ this year. Who would have thought in this day and age there is an organ we never knew about. We are still finding out about the human body. That we haven't found significant differences between male and female brains doesn't mean they don't exist.

You seem to be the one imbuing gender identity with some sort of magical existence outside the realm of science.

Pondering

I did just find one of the links I hit but didn't go read from this thread.

https://genderanalysis.net/2017/08/being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness...

.....this accusatory labeling of transgender identity as a “mental disorder” ......

Wow. Accusatory labeling? People are "accused" of having mental disorders?

I suffer from depression to the extent that I am on wellburtrin for life. I had spent 30 years trying different medications. I had a new doctor and the doctor said "Is there anything you would like to try?"  I chose wellbrutrin because I was a very heavy smoker. Notice "was". Wellbrutrin is Zyban. Within two days of starting my smoking was cut in half without any effort on my part. It just happened. Eventually I quit which was harder but I succeeded.

Whenever I try to stop taking it I feel the impact within 3 days. By the time a month is past I'm not getting out of bed in the morning. I'm sleeping 12/16 hours a day. Not eating. Not showering. Not leaving the house unless I am forced and getting back as fast as I can. I have left food in grocery stores because the line up was too long for me to bear to stay. I didn't open my mail for months. That can cause serious problems. Like eviction.

I have tried stopping numerous times because I feel fine on it. I feel "cured". The thinking goes "I'm okay now, everything is under control, I can control my mood and behavior without pills." Only I can't. For years I constantly searched for the reasons I was depressed but that made it worse because dwelling on your misfortunes does that. On Wellbrutrin I am fine.

Depression is a mental disorder I have no control over without medication. It was so bad I was willing to try shock therapy. Am I supposed to be ashamed of that because it is a mental disorder?

Well I am ashamed of it. It makes me feel like I have a weak character. Something is wrong with me that can't be fixed and it is in my head. It is my fault. I should be able to make it go away. I should control my thoughts.

Instead I take Wellbrutrin and for sudden waves of melancholy I use cannabis.

So on second thought maybe accusation is the right word after all. Why can't I just make it go away? In this moment I want to stop taking the pills again. I want to prove that I am in control of my own brain and thoughts and there is nothing wrong with me. I am not weak-minded. I don't dare. I tried 3 times already and I've been warned they could stop working and I am already at maximum dose.

Having a mental disorder is not a crime. It isn't my fault. I have tried as hard as hard can be to not be this way.

It is very hurtful for me to meet with the attitude that saying gender dysmorphia is a mental illness is so deeply insulting that it is called an accusation. That I am stigmatizing them.

I'm getting the message loud and clear that mental disorder is something for me to be ashamed of. I thought about not admitting to it. But if I don't admit it I am confirming that it is something to hide. That it is okay to be diabetic, but mental illness, how repellent. I do feel ashamed but I am not going to hang my head.

6079_Smith_W

Where did misfit bring up that issue? Some other thread, maybe?

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

And this isn't about shaming someone for mental illness, so please stop pretending that it is. It is about claiming that gender dysphoria is a mental illness when it is not.

 

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Where did misfit bring up that issue? Some other thread, maybe?

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

And this isn't about shaming someone for mental illness, so please stop pretending that it is. It is about claiming that gender dysphoria is a mental illness when it is not.

We do not have proof of the existence of gender identity at birth. Maybe it exists. Maybe it doesn't. Not even trans people can tell us what they thought when they were born. You can't just declare it to be so.

It is more than obvious that you consider a mental disorder/illness/disease/condition to be a worse outcome than finding evidence of a physical cause for transgenderism. 

When you interpret mental disorder as an accusation you stigmatize mental illness. The article you linked to called it exactly that. An accusation. Your attitude indicates that you agree.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

It is an example of how far some heterosexual men will go to catch a woman in a state of undress. I said it is not justification for preventing trans women from using the women's facilities but women shouldn't be mocked for fearing heterosexual men could use it as a means of invading women's spaces.

Apparently you do think women should be denigrated for fearing heterosexual men might consider keeping impersonation in their bag of tricks. It's not like they have scruples or care about the reputations of trans woman. You are condemning women for even having that emotion. For letting the thought cross their mind.

It isn't enough for you if we say trans women's safety comes first so of course they should be entitled to use the women's facilities. We aren't allowed to fear heterosexual men might take advantage of the situation.

We aren't allowed to be of the opinion that gender is a social construct without being accused of bigotry.

I have bent over backwards not to claim that gender identity is soley a social construct. I have bent over backwards to affirm the coverage of medical treatment and the full social acceptance of trans woman including their use of women's restrooms and to make it very clear that trans women are not a threat.

I have a right to reject the notion that I was born with a gender identity labeled woman separate from my sex. I have a right to object to it being taken as a matter of fact when no such thing has been proven. Not even close.

I am still reading the argument that girls like pink even though in recent history pink was for boys and boys wore dresses with ruffles. On the BBC website no less. This is serious for me. It perpetuates a stereotype about women and emphasizes our being inherently different from men. It goes along with the whole women are nurturers and men aren't thing.

Women have good reason for resisting the theory that we are born with a gender identity. We don't deserve to be attacked for it.

6079_Smith_W

But Pondering, you frame it as: "The fear is of men dressing up like trans women not trans women."

Backed up with, well nothing but a story about some guy in a wall. And how are you supposed to tell the difference?

Surely you realize that all it does is target transpeople, and anyone who doesn't fit some people's gender stereotypes. All you are doing by spreading myths like that is telling people they are right in questioning and undermining someone's identity, and challenging their right to go to the bathroom.

As I said in the other thread, it has happened to my kid regularly, even when she was 12. It is nothing but fearmongering, and it is no solution at all to any of this.

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But Pondering, you frame it as: "The fear is of men dressing up like trans women not trans women."

Backed up with, well nothing but a story about some guy in a wall. And how are you supposed to tell the difference?

Surely you realize that all it does is target transpeople, and anyone who doesn't fit some people's gender stereotypes. All you are doing by spreading myths like that is telling people they are right in questioning and undermining someone's identity, and challenging their right to go to the bathroom.

As I said in the other thread, it has happened to my kid regularly, even when she was 12. It is nothing but fearmongering, and it is no solution at all to any of this.

Realistic or not it is reasonable for it to occur to women that men could use that tactic. I never imagined a man would slip between walls. Or install cameras in a restaurant bathroom. Or use a hidden camera to upskirt women. I can't even imagine why anyone would find the picture even interesting. A covered crotch shot with a skirt at least partly in the way.  Why would anyone want that. I can only imagine it is some sort of power trip that he is getting crotch shots without being detected. I have no idea what angle I will read about next. It's impossible to know what they will try.

All women including trans women are prey. Now that transitioning is happening younger some trans women are able to avoid developing masculine features if they so choose. Trans people that transition at a much older age can look very masculine.

I am surprised that your daughter was confronted at such a young age. Although girls are maturing younger and younger at 12 pre-teen bodies aren't that different. It isn't until puberty that boys get the growth spurts and other features that mark them. Breasts come earlier for girls but not all girls.

I'm also sorry that she had to experience that. It must have been very hurtful at such a tender age.

6079_Smith_W

Thanks. Do you get why  this myth about guys getting dressed up as women so they can sneak into bathrooms contributes to that?  She hasn't been beaten up yet because of it. Plenty have.

Please watch this video, and consider what it says.

https://youtu.be/vo42M8MdznY

https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/05/05/comprehensive-guide-deb...

Ivan Coyote's take on it is also instructive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6MeDSCBVM

https://www.dailyxtra.com/dear-lady-in-the-womens-washroom-6227

And it isn't the fault of victims of violence if they don't fit someone's stereotype and wind up getting harrassed or assaulted. It is the fault of those who commit the act, and our society which keeps perpetuating these bullshit myths and doesn't provide adequate safe access for people wanting to go to the bathroom.

 

JKR

Pondering wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Where did misfit bring up that issue? Some other thread, maybe?

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

And this isn't about shaming someone for mental illness, so please stop pretending that it is. It is about claiming that gender dysphoria is a mental illness when it is not.

We do not have proof of the existence of gender identity at birth. Maybe it exists. Maybe it doesn't. Not even trans people can tell us what they thought when they were born. You can't just declare it to be so.

It is more than obvious that you consider a mental disorder/illness/disease/condition to be a worse outcome than finding evidence of a physical cause for transgenderism. 

When you interpret mental disorder as an accusation you stigmatize mental illness. The article you linked to called it exactly that. An accusation. Your attitude indicates that you agree.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

It is an example of how far some heterosexual men will go to catch a woman in a state of undress. I said it is not justification for preventing trans women from using the women's facilities but women shouldn't be mocked for fearing heterosexual men could use it as a means of invading women's spaces.

Apparently you do think women should be denigrated for fearing heterosexual men might consider keeping impersonation in their bag of tricks. It's not like they have scruples or care about the reputations of trans woman. You are condemning women for even having that emotion. For letting the thought cross their mind.

It isn't enough for you if we say trans women's safety comes first so of course they should be entitled to use the women's facilities. We aren't allowed to fear heterosexual men might take advantage of the situation.

We aren't allowed to be of the opinion that gender is a social construct without being accused of bigotry.

I have bent over backwards not to claim that gender identity is soley a social construct. I have bent over backwards to affirm the coverage of medical treatment and the full social acceptance of trans woman including their use of women's restrooms and to make it very clear that trans women are not a threat.

I have a right to reject the notion that I was born with a gender identity labeled woman separate from my sex. I have a right to object to it being taken as a matter of fact when no such thing has been proven. Not even close.

I am still reading the argument that girls like pink even though in recent history pink was for boys and boys wore dresses with ruffles. On the BBC website no less. This is serious for me. It perpetuates a stereotype about women and emphasizes our being inherently different from men. It goes along with the whole women are nurturers and men aren't thing.

Women have good reason for resisting the theory that we are born with a gender identity. We don't deserve to be attacked for it.

Most men and women believe we are born with a gender identity so why single out trans people for having this belief?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Most men and women believe we are born with a gender identity so why single out trans people for having this belief?

I think that if you asked "most men and women" they would tell you they believe they're born with a sex (male or female) and that their gender follows.  I don't think many would tell you that their gender identity is somehow separate and distinct from their sex, nor that their gender identity is more intrinsic to them than their sex.

6079_Smith_W

@ Magoo

In the first place that isn't necessarily true. How long have "tom boy" and "sissy" been pejorative terms  in common usage? That would be at least as long as there has been an awareness of gender that is independent from biological sex.

I'd say most people are aware that not all men and not all women fit the stereotype. The difference is that not everyone agrees in the strict interpretation that it is nothing but a construct used to enforced patriarchy (though it has been used for that too).

Another thing too is that if we are going to look at who is most responsible for perpetuating hypersexualized stereotypes it isn't trans people. The vast majority presenting in these exaggerated stereotypes, and the majority trying to force others into them are those in the mainstream - non-trans men and women.

So I agree with JKR, why all the heat focused on the small minority of trans people, and why the assumption that this whole problem hinges on  their identity?

Pondering

I am withdrawing from debate on what gender identity is and whether or not it exists at birth. It is very theoretical and the nature versus nurture debate will be with us for a very long time to come.

I feel that to continue along this vein, or to discuss and aspect of the transgender condition, is disrespectful of Smith because it forces him into debate on a topic that has caused him immeasurable stress and countless sleepness nights.

It feels mean to me. I don't want to force Smith to discuss this topic so for me the conversation is over.

6079_Smith_W

Are you joking?

I don't  care if you think gender isn't innate, and I'm not trying to convince you that it is. Not everyone thinks the same about it.

In fact, we haven't been talking about that at all, so I am not sure why you mention it, or why you think it is a problem. If you are done talking, fine. But it has nothing to do with me.

 

Pondering

Trans people have a right to access whichever restroom they feel most comfortable entering.

 I thought the entire topic might be sensitive for you and I wanted to be respectful of your feelings in particular on the topic of it being a mental disorder versus a condition at birth. It certainly wasn't "a joke". I guess that was a mistake on my part so, sorry, I withdraw my withdrawal. Let the swords be drawn.

You denigrate women for being afraid a man might dress up as a woman to victimize us.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Man-Dressed-as-Woman-Arrested-f...

A man dressed as a woman was arrested in Virginia on Monday after police say he was caught peeping into restroom stalls three times in the past year.

Richard Rodriguez, 30, filmed a woman in a bathroom stall at the Potomac Mills Mall, Prince William County Police said on Tuesday. A 35-year-old woman was in the stall when she saw a bag moved toward her under the stall divider. Rodriguez apparently had been filming her, police said.

Women are not afraid of trans women. They are afraid of men. Being afraid of men is an entirely realistic fear.

 https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/01/26/san-jose-sex-offender-wearing-fak...

Richard Rendler, 60, of San Jose, a registered sex offender, found that out on Friday in Campbell, when he was arrested at the PruneYard Shopping Center on misdemeanor loitering charges.

Campbell Police Sgt. Dave Carmichael said Rendler was arrested after having been caught in the womens’ restroom of an unnamed store for “several minutes.”

Police were tipped off to Rendler’s whereabouts shortly before noon on Friday, when a witness called authorities to say a man was getting out of his car wearing fake breasts and a wig and carrying a purse. The witness saw the man near a bank and thought it was a little “weird” to see a man wearing what seemed to be a disguise, Carmichael said.

OMG That's unbelievable!   A sex offender would go so far as to put on women's clothing and a wig!   Shocking. Who could ever have imagined such a thing! 

https://abc7news.com/archive/7739509/

BERKELEY, Calif. --

Police have arrested a man they say twice disguised himself as a woman to get inside a UC Berkeley locker room, where he allegedly used his cell phone to photograph women.

UC Berkeley police Lt. Alex Yao told the Oakland Tribune that officers on Thursday arrested Gregorio Hernandez on suspicion of disorderly conduct.

Women have every right to be afraid of what male predators will do to get to us. As a man you have the luxury of condemning our fears as "all in our head" and "unrealistic" but you are full of shit.

The very real fears of natal women should not be discounted as bigotry or mocked. There would be no need for sexually segregated bathrooms if men were not a threat to us.

As usual, natal women are being told their feelings don't matter. You Smith, as a man, have decided that our fears are wrong. We aren't even entitled to the emotion even if we aren't making any demands based on that fear. It isn't enough to control our behavior you want to control our thoughts or forbid us from expressing them. I can definitely tell that you are a man.

Aside from the occasional black widow men are the sex to fear. For that reason male sex characteristics alert us to the presence of potential danger in female areas particularly where we might be in a state of undress increasing our vulnerability. We use male sex characteristics to identity invaders. It's a trigger.

Predators who dress up as women are not trans women. They aren't even cross-dressers in the way we normally understand the term. Predators will go to extreme lengths to invade women's spaces. It is laughable to me that you would think they would draw the line at impersonation.

The natural and understandable fear we experience is not automatic justification for keeping trans women out of women's restrooms. The predators cited were caught because they didn't behave like women. We have privacy within privacy in the form of stalls. A predator would have to do something, like slide a purse or packages under the stall. Trans women, especially those with visible male characteristics, are not going to do anything that could be construed as inappropriate or aggressive in a "ladies room". In this day and age I wouldn't put it past a woman to do the same and sell the pictures if she could. Or do it for a boyfriend.

I agree that the safety and emotional comfort of trans women outweighs the threat of peeping tom predators when evaluated but our fears are not unfounded, overly emotional, or hysterical. It doesn't make us bad people or bigots.

The attitude that we are not entitled to have these fears or to express them feels like women are being silenced. It feels like misogyny.

6079_Smith_W

Too sensitive? No. I just dont like seeing friends targeted.
But what you dont seem to get is that by spreading this myth trans people and others who use the washroom in good faith wind up getting targeted. Or maybe you think no one ever makes a false assumption here.

6079_Smith_W

And you have a case where someone is violating a parole condition, and another which involves something illegal no matter who does it - taking photos. So that means it is open season to challenge anyone you think doesn't belong?

JKR

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Most men and women believe we are born with a gender identity so why single out trans people for having this belief?

I think that if you asked "most men and women" they would tell you they believe they're born with a sex (male or female) and that their gender follows.  I don't think many would tell you that their gender identity is somehow separate and distinct from their sex, nor that their gender identity is more intrinsic to them than their sex.

I think most people view their experience of their sex and their gender as being a personal experience and that others may have different personsl experiences of sex and gender. Also I think most people are accommodating to others in allowing them to have different personal perspectives concerning personal experiences of sex and gender. I haven't heard of instances where people who are transgendered demand that others believe that gender is biologically determined. In general, I think people who are transgendered are much much more accommodating to the general public than the general public is to them.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I haven't heard of instances where people who are transgendered demand that others believe that gender is biologically determined.

Isn't that the essence of the whole "lady brain" argument??  That transwomen were born with a somehow intrinsically "female" brain?

JKR

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I haven't heard of instances where people who are transgendered demand that others believe that gender is biologically determined.

Isn't that the essence of the whole "lady brain" argument??  That transwomen were born with a somehow intrinsically "female" brain?

That is the argument but that argument has not been proven and it may not be provable so people who are transgendered don't require it in order to advocate for their rights. I don't think the nature versus nurture debate has to be determined in order for people to claim their rights.

6079_Smith_W

The rights aren't based on that anyway.

They are based on discrimination against people, and they apply to everyone.

Just because someone can't prove Allah exists doesn't mean there is no such thing as an anti religious hate crime.

quizzical

it's not a myth Smith.

my and others right to be safe in spaces created to protect us from men outweighs the few women who may be asked do they belong. 

i told you above i've been attacked by men in women bathrooms and i dont appreciate your calling ponderings examples and my life experiences myths.

i stand with her on her last post to you. 

JKR

I think it's possible to create safe spaces for people without discriminating against certain groups of people.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't think the nature versus nurture debate has to be determined in order for people to claim their rights.

I completely agree.  Are you referring to the rights recently voted into law as Bill C-16?

Quote:
Just because someone can't prove Allah exists doesn't mean there is no such thing as an anti religious hate crime.

Agreed.  But am I permitted to say publicly that Allah doesn't exist?  

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Too sensitive? No. I just dont like seeing friends targeted. But what you dont seem to get is that by spreading this myth trans people and others who use the washroom in good faith wind up getting targeted. Or maybe you think no one ever makes a false assumption here.

Pretending it is a myth isn't going to prevent people from making false assumptions. It will strengthen the assumptions when both logic and the behavior of men show us otherwise. 

It is unnecessary because there are real argments for accepting all women in the women's washrooms.

The argument is that some men will do that but they are easy to tell from actual trans women because they usually maintain more physically male characteristics. As I said a woman could record other women too. I bet it is already happening. They are doing it for a different reason, to humiliate or to pass on to a boyfriend or some other reason. If you think women wouldn't do such a thing you are naive.

Women have been warned not to put our purses on the door hook inside the stall because men have been known to run in and just reach over and grab them all. A tall woman could do the same.

So the truth is what we have to be on guard from is the behavior, regardless of the sex of the person, and men dressing up as women are generally easy to identify. They are not nearly as convincing as actual trans women who usually at least take hormones that change the texture of their skin and give them natural breasts. It is a rare trans woman that looks like she is just cross-dressing rather than living as a woman.

 

6079_Smith_W

So you found two examples from 10 years ago of things which would have not been criminal except that - surprise - someone was committing a crime. What do you think should have happened had the person not been on parole, or not had a camera?

It is a myth. Not according to me but according to a coalition of 200 organizations who work in the field of sexual assault.  It is a myth designed to throw suspicion against people who don't look like others think they should. No different than the myth it was based on about not trusting gay people in bathrooms:

A coalition of over 200 national, state and local organizations across the U.S. that work with sexual assault and domestic violence survivors are objecting to the justifications given by lawmakers to forbid transgender people from using the bathroom of their choosing.

These organizations asked for “support of full and equal access for the transgender community," according to a statement on Thursday by a coalition under the advocacy group National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence Against Women.

“Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state.”

Strangio also noted that allowing transgender people to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity “doesn’t increase in any way public safety incidents.”

There are two central falsehoods to the legislators’ reasoning, Strangio said. One is "that transgender people aren’t real and [are] inherently dangerous.” The second falsehood is that without HB2, "non-transgender people will take advantage" of the situation -- for example, a man could dress up as a woman to enter a woman's bathroom.

“All this does is to heighten gender policing of everyone by law enforcement, and individual people who do not conform to gender norms are targeted," Strangio said.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations...

You keep saying that this isn't about innocent people (again, because it isn't just transgender people who get harrassed and assaulted by people because of hate and fearmongering). That it is about men. But in the same breath you perperpetuate this myth that is directed at the innocent.

Unless you think these mythical men in disguse waiting to break into every bathroom all wear neon signs so that we can identify them. Do you have some pictures maybe so we can tell the difference and not be harrassing the wrong people?

Again, I have some personal friends who would appreciate the clarification.

And one anti- bathroom access campaign even admitted they made up a bathroom predator myth ad campaign, even as they admitted it did not work:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/07/anti-trans-group-bathroom-predator...

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Okay, there’s some prime shark-jumping in this thread. 

You shouldn’t hang your purse on the hook in a bathroom stall because a man might grab it???? Are you fucking serious? Sorry, that’s utter nonsense. If you’ve got time to be that unreasonably paranoid, you aren’t busy enough. 

I know very few women who are genuinely concerned about trans people being predators in disguise. If you are, you’re buying a bullshit line from Bigots R Us. Note I’m not calling the buyer of the line a bigot, just the nasty pieces of work who invented it. You’ll remember some of their other hits, like the Barbaric Practices Hotline. 

And please note that I’m someone whose questioning of the biological basis for transgender would likely have me hounded as a TERF. 

If we want to be taken seriously, we need to put this reactionary shit away. 

6079_Smith_W

Thank you, TB. And yes, the harrassment on both sides of this divide is fucked.

MegB

I've been monitoring this thread since its inception. Great conversation. However, Smith, you need to back off from Pondering. Your insistent need for her to restate her position, reaptedly, regardless of your civil language, is a form of bullying. 

 

 

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