Brexit

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Doug Woodard

The dark shadow of Brexit, by Amartya Sen:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/06/dark-shadow

 

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Whew!

Ever hear of WW1 & WW2 as in before the European Community as Smith said upstairs?

Memories are short.

 

 

Ever hear of 1945-1992, before the reign of neo-liberalism and The Shock Doctrine? Memories are short.

NorthReport

Building more borders or more walls is an unhealthy societial sickness that clearly smacks of racism. Donald Trump anyone!  Frown

We need to be tearing down wallls and borders instead

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Good fences make good neighbours.

Stockholm

When I see white supremacists andf xenophobes and neo-Nazis and all the most revolting of the UK tabloid press all pushing for a Brexit - aloing with the neo-fascist UKIP party and the most rightwing factions of the Tory party...it tells me everything i need to know about why Britain should remain in Europe and people should vote a big fat NO to the idea of a Brexit.

NorthReport

Bingo!

What's not to understand about that, eh!

NorthReport

One would think and hope after the murder of the remain-supporting MP
that the remain side would trounce their really sick opposition

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
When I see white supremacists andf xenophobes and neo-Nazis and all the most revolting of the UK tabloid press all pushing for a Brexit - aloing with the neo-fascist UKIP party and the most rightwing factions of the Tory party...it tells me everything i need to know about why Britain should remain in Europe and people should vote a big fat NO to the idea of a Brexit.

Quote:
Bingo! What's not to understand about that, eh!

Quote:
Who said that, Magoo?

Don't ask me how I knew.  But sometimes you can smell the fire before you feel the fire.  Anyhoo, hats off to the EU!  Stay!  Stay!

swallow swallow's picture

But that's not what you said people said, Magoo. 

NorthReport

This amalgamation of Europe was done to prevent another World War
So far so good, eh!

NorthReport

This amalgamation of Europe was done to prevent another World War
So far so good, eh!

NorthReport

Trump’s lies aren’t unique to America: Post-truth politics are killing democracies on both sides of the AtlanticVoters no longer value truth, and Donald Trump and Boris Johnson are dangerously exploiting the new paradigm

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/19/trumps_lies_arent_unique_to_america_post...

White Cat White Cat's picture

Brexit is looking real tasty! 'Leave' is polling ahead just before the vote!

Although the 'Leave' side is based on all nonsense, the ramifications are all good.

For one, you always hear economists making up bullshit numbers on how free trade deals will create billions in new GDP growth. The deals are implemented, then all economic indicators go down the crapper — years later; meaning the economists are never held to account.

Now they are saying the Brexit will cause economic devastation. Huge losses in jobs and GDP growth. So what happens when it doesn’t? Then people will have the British example to cite that ending free trade deals won't do any damage to the economy. (Which it won't. If the economic gains are bullshit, so are the agenda-driven predictions of economic losses.)

This could be the catalyst that turns the tide on free-trade globalization. This paves the way for a social-green fair-trade globalization inversion.

Second, this could be the catalyst that destroys the euro-zone (which if not dismantled by common sense, will be dismantled by fascist revolutions and world war.) A common currency zone is based on terrible economics. It's much better if countries have their own currencies and central banks.

If a country gets into fiscal trouble, it can lower its currency and pay down its debt. (Like Canada in the 1990s.) If a mercantilist country is running a big trade surplus, its currency rises and its trade surplus disappears. (A big trade surplus in one country is funded by borrowing in other countries that run accompanying trade deficits.)

In the case of the euro-zone, Germany is a mercantilist country running a bigger trade surplus than China. It seems the entire country is unionized, which made it easier to cut labor costs to make the country more competitive with China. This put a huge burden on the rest of the countries in the euro-zone. They have to cut government spending (lowering their trade deficits); have a lower inflation rate than Germany so their labor costs grow at a slower pace; etc. Lots of pain; absolutely no chance of gain.

In short, the euro-zone is another one of these "economic sins" ideologies. The people must pay for their economic sins with economic pain. (Except for the rich, whose incomes rise, who cause all the problems in the first place.) These Medieval-barber blood-letting schemes always collapse because they just make matters worse.

If the IMF has a developing country over a barrel they can put the screws to them and the country has no recourse but to suffer a pointless depression while plutocrats snatch up their assets at bargain basement prices.

But if plutocrats try pulling this scheme on territories like Western Europe and North America then the people rise up. Last time when 'liquidationists' attempted to deflate the economy to raise their real wealth, they triggered fascist revolutions and a Keynesian 'New Deal' that created modern living standards.

Ending the euro-zone will stop a certain path to world war. (Another financial meltdown could still trigger one, however.) A 'New Deal' is most likely to form out of the aftermath of the euro-zone as it's become abundantly clear that free-market ideology is a two-time loser and the neoliberal era must be invited to leave.

White Cat White Cat's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Trump’s lies aren’t unique to America: Post-truth politics are killing democracies on both sides of the AtlanticVoters no longer value truth, and Donald Trump and Boris Johnson are dangerously exploiting the new paradigm

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/19/trumps_lies_arent_unique_to_america_post...

Post-truth politics? How about post-lie politics?

The reason people no longer listen to mainstream politicians is because they're all on the take.

Obomba had Democratic majorities in the House and the Senate. Had a mandate for sweeping change. But represented Wall Street bankers in place of the people. Created the Tea Party.

Why is Hillary a military hawk? Because according to her, war is a "business opportunity." Hillary is the embodiment of Eisenhower's warning of an out-of-control military industrial complex. The more people she bombs, the bigger the donations to the Clinton Foundation.

That's why I'm really hoping Trump wins the presidency. It's better to have a crazy Republican in the White House than a moderate one pretending to be a Democrat. If Hillary wins, in 2020 the Republicans will point out that Democratic presidents have overseen the worst period of economic stagnation in American history. 12 years of misery thanks to incompetent Democrats. Their slogan will be: "Morning in America or 4 more years of Great Recession."

If Hillary loses to Trump, this will be a repudiation of all the corruption that is Hillary Clinton. This will likely trigger a 'New Deal' rebuilding of the Democratic party in the style of FDR and Bernie Sanders. If Hillary wins, this is a big thumbs up to bribe-taking politicians and establishment capture of the Democratic party.

Sometimes you have to go West to go East (especially when everything is upside down.)

White Cat White Cat's picture

NorthReport wrote:
This amalgamation of Europe was done to prevent another World War So far so good, eh!

They said free trade would end war. Saw it on an episode of Penn and Teller's "Bullshit."

Doesn't appear to have worked.

Perhaps the people who come up with sales pitches like these are simply f*cking liars!

NorthReport

Actually I must have missed WW3 Sorry about that

Anyway back from Bizarro World

Leading Conservative quits Leave campaign due to hateful, xenophobic remarks

I have to question anyone who wants to be associated with Farage and his ilk

NorthReport

Husband calls for fight against the hatred that killed her

White Cat White Cat's picture

Someone call 911. I think NorthReport is having a stroke. (Unless this person typically posts meaningless gibberish.)

NorthReport

Jo Cox was working on report dealing with anti-Muslim violence just before her death

NorthReport

Resorting to personal attacks is typical behaviour of someone who is losing the argument

White Cat wrote:

Someone call 911. I think NorthReport is having a stroke. (Unless this person typically posts meaningless gibberish.)

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Building more borders or more walls is an unhealthy societial sickness that clearly smacks of racism. Donald Trump anyone!  Frown

We need to be tearing down wallls and borders instead

Straw meet man.

josh

NorthReport wrote:
This amalgamation of Europe was done to prevent another World War
So far so good, eh!

Where was the war between 1945 and 1992? Maybe I missed it.

Stockholm

The European Union as we know it started in the late 1940s with e the European Coal and Steel Community between France, West Germany and Benelux...that quickly evolved into the European Commin Market which had a European Parliament in Strasbourg. European integration was essentially to NOT having the countries of Europe not reverting to all the enmities that characterized the interwar period.

josh

The Maastricht Treaty was signed on February 7, 1992, by the leaders of 12 member nations, and it reflected the serious intentions of all countries to create a common economic and monetary union. Also known as the Treaty on European Union.  Which created the euro.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Hollande Capitulates to EU Pressure on Labor Laws Risking His Own Presidency

quote:

PERIES: And when you say the eurozone is trying to conform to this kind of labor regulation they want across Europe, why do they want that? Why do they want that kind of conformity?

LAMBERT: Well, that is a big debate. And my opinion is that that is the reason why the European Union was created. The European Union is not like the United States, the addition of separate states under a federal government. It's a plan to create a common market. It's a corporate-oriented project that was intended to make it easier for companies to make profit and to streamline regulations that would hinder their profit-making. Hence what we have seen under the guise of creating solidarity, pushing for peace and prosperity, is ever better regulations in favor of companies and tougher and tougher laws directed, passed by Brussels for workers. If you look at free trade agreements, the one we are negotiating at the moment with Washington, the--

PERIES: TTIP.

LAMBERT: --exactly, TTIP--is a demonstration of this way of looking at the world. It's basically a dream come true for companies, but the promise of a much harder life for workers in France, Spain, and Germany and the rest of Europe.

josh

Yes, the EU is neo-liberalism writ large.  Austerity, restricting unions while freeing capital, and the corporation uber alles.

Doug Woodard

Brexit would make Britain the world's most hated nation (mostly a good review of the EU and its history, its importance, and the Euro mistake):

http://gu.com/p/4mx8j/sbl

 

josh

Hated by whom?

6079_Smith_W

Quote:

I love fake revolts of the underclass: I’m a veteran of them. At secondary school, we had a revolt in favour of the right to smoke. The football violence I witnessed in the 1970s and 80s felt like the social order turned on its head. As for the mass outpouring of solidarity with the late Princess Diana, and by implication against the entire cruel monarchic elite, in the end I chucked my bunch of flowers on the pile with the rest.

The problem is, I also know what a real revolt looks like...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt...

 

Stockholm

josh wrote:

The Maastricht Treaty was signed on February 7, 1992, by the leaders of 12 member nations, and it reflected the serious intentions of all countries to create a common economic and monetary union. Also known as the Treaty on European Union.  Which created the euro.

That was just one phase in a grand European project that began out of the ashes of world war 2. Perhaps you don't know that the common currency (i.e. the Euro) is optional and as a result Britain, Denmark, Sweden and some other countries in eastern Europe have opted not to use it. Also, the Schengen agreement is optional meaning that the UK is free to opt out of that as well - right now Briatin has the best of both worlds.

The people who want the Brexit are virtually all rightwing xenophobes who want to remove what little protection workers have in the EU with a made-in-Britain rightwing agenda. There is no escpating globaization by leaving the EU - Britain will still be part of the WTO and various other trade agreements etc... the main thing that would change is that Briatin would lose all representation in the European parliament and also lose its members of the governing council (sort of like the cabinet).

The European Union is one of the best ideas of the last 100 years...sure it could be improved, but it is still VASTLY better than  the alternative of 28 countries each with rigid boprder controls and currencies all viciously competing with each other and in a state of cold war.

josh

Your post is Alice in Wonderland.  One phase?  Yes, it's one phase.  But the most important phase.  One currency, severe restrictions on the ability of country to exercise its own fiscal policy.  Remove protection of workers?  That's what the EU does.  When there is a conflict between capital and corporate rights against unions, the former wins.  As was noted earlier in the thread.  No escaping globalization?  Besides a cliche, what does that mean.  If there's no escapiing globalization, there's no need for the EU. 

One of the best ideas?  Vicious competition?  Growth and employment were far greater in the decades prior to Maastricht than after.  Not to mention that countries with economies, like Greece and Spain, have been forced to play by German rules when it comes to fiscal policy and currency.  Which has resulted in unemployment rates over 20%.  What a great idea!  And if they try to break free democratically, they are crushed by the EU.  So much for democracy.  In short the EU, post-Maastricht, has been an abject failure.

Stockholm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-jeremy-corby...

Jeremy Corbyn has made an 11th-hour appeal to Labour voters to back a Remain vote, placing the NHS front and centre of the party’s EU message, and branding Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage as “wolves in sheep’s clothing” who want to destroy the health service. Appearing alongside the entire shadow cabinet and the leaders of the country’s biggest trade unions, Mr Corbyn implored Labour voters to “think very carefully” about their vote, and to back Remain.

 

Campaigning for Labour In For Britain, Mr Corbyn was joined by shadow health secretary Heidi Alexander on the visit to the university campus.

The politicians watched Eastern European nursing students from the Erasmus Exchange programme, on a week-long UK placement, demonstrate a patient transfer.

Afterwards, Mr Corbyn took questions from a group of students in their final year of studies.

He told them: 'I'm for remaining in the European Union to continue these relationships but also to improve working conditions across Europe and protect the social chapter.

'When so much trade and jobs depend on the EU we've got to think very carefully.'

Mr Corbyn also said he was committed to the future of the NHS, and claimed there would be 'less money for the NHS if we left the EU'.

He told students: 'I am totally committed to the NHS, it's the most civilised thing we have in Britain.

'The principle of universal healthcare, free at the point of use.'

Asked what would happen if Britain voted to leave, Mr Corbyn added: 'We'll become a more insular, isolated place.

'That's not to say everything is perfect within the EU, it isn't.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3633852/Labour-leadership-duo-Tom-Jerry-road-amid-backlash-half-hearted-EU-referendum-campaign.html#ixzz4C9A3ZNu3
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Stockholm

josh wrote:

Your post is Alice in Wonderland.  One phase?  Yes, it's one phase.  But the most important phase.  One currency, severe restrictions on the ability of country to exercise its own fiscal policy.  Remove protection of workers?  That's what the EU does.  When there is a conflict between capital and corporate rights against unions, the former wins.  As was noted earlier in the thread.  No escaping globalization?  Besides a cliche, what does that mean.  If there's no escapiing globalization, there's no need for the EU. 

Except that it is not one currency. Britain uses the pound and the Bank of England sets interest rates.

I repeat - virtally all of progressive civil society in the UK is 100% pro-Europe - the people who want a "Brexit" are virtually all neo-fascist xenophobs from UKIP and the knuckledragging wing of the Tory party who just see it as a way to get rid of immigrants. If you want to make common cause with those thugs go ahead - make my day!

josh

I repeat - virtally all of progressive civil society in the UK is 100% pro-Europe - the people who want a "Brexit" are virtually all neo-fascist xenophobs from UKIP and the knuckledragging wing of the Tory party who just see it as a way to get rid of immigrants. 

 

I guess the significant amout of Labour supporters for Brexit--anywhere from 3 to 4 in 10--are not part of your self-defined "civil society."  But then again, they're probably not Blairites like you either.  Meanwhile:

 

 

It is an insult to say that our rights are protected and depend on the European Union. You tell that to a Greek worker, an Italian worker, a Spanish worker, or any of those accession states, who were told that their national collective-bargaining structures had to disappear if they were to get into the EU. Or Greece and others who were told that as a condition of bailouts you wipe out the whole of the collective-bargaining structure.'Doug Nicholls, chair of Trade Unionists Against the EU (TUAEU), is unimpressed. Not just with the paltry state of workers' rights across the European Union – one of the reasons TUAEU, which represents Eurosceptic trade unionists from across Britain, is campaigning for Brexit 

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-eu-has-done-nothing-for...

 

 

Stockholm

I didn't know that Corbyn (who is 100% pro-EU) was a Blairite

josh

Didn't say he was.  Maybe he's concerned about not being invited to the next "progressive civil society" meeting.

Stockholm

I actually think there isn't enough integration in the EU. I would like all of Europe united into one big country called the united States of Europe and just abolish the UK, France, Germany etc... altogether - just have one big country with one parliament and maybe the old countries can function like canadian provinces with just a few powers over education and folklore. in fact i'd like to see the day whenj nation states are abolished all over the world and we have world federalism!

Stockholm

John Oliver does a great job here explaining what total insanity the Brexit would be how the people pushing for it are all nutbars

 

http://www.salon.com/2016/06/20/you_think_things_are_crazy_in_america_wa...

 

Last Week Tonight” host John Oliver last night debunked the “overstated” argument that a Brexit would be beneficial to the U.K.’s well-being.

“Britain leaving [the European Union] would be a huge destabilizing decision,” Oliver said. “So you would expect expect the Brexit camp to have some pretty solid arguments. Unfortunately, many of them are bullshit.”

At the core of Brexit supporters is the U.K. Independence Party (UKIP), a staunchly anti-immigration party that’s currently bolstered by the refugee crisis.

“It is hard for me to overstate to you how poisonous things have become in England,” he continued, mentioning Labour Party MP Jo Cox, who was murdered by a British Nationalist last week. “And in that cauldron, people are being asked to make a major political decision.”

Oliver conceded that the E.U. “does not make itself easy to love,” calling it “a complicated, bureaucratic, ambitious, overbearing, inspirational, and consistently irritating institution.”

However, he added, “Britain would be absolutely crazy to leave it.”

NorthReport

Agreed that Europe would do much better if more fully integrated. One currency, zero internal borders. The UK could help by showing some constructive leadership, end this Brexit sham, give up the pound and join the euro

josh

Inside every Blairite is a Thatcherite dying to break free.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/26/robert-mundell-evi...

NorthReport

Brexit is a fake revolt
Working class culture being hijacked to help the elite
By Paul Mason in the Guardian

swallow swallow's picture

Quote:
When the EU referendum was first announced, I made a Lexit argument when the topic came up. A vote for the EU is a vote for capitalism, austerity and militarised borders, I’d say. The reality is that argument has elicited only the minutest of echoes. The Brexit campaign has been entirely dominated by the ugliest form of Euroscepticism imaginable. As Priyamvada Gopal has put it, a vote for Brexit is a vote for the “magnificent lie that exploitation, austerity, greed and impoverishment have all come to Britain from the nasty outside”.

[url=http://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/06/19/brexit-nostalgia-empire/]Brexit as Nostalgia for Empire [/url]

An article from a leftist Euroskeptic, pointing out that a Brexit win would be on the backs of racism, immigrant-phobia, and dreams of restoring the British empire. 

josh

swallow wrote:

Quote:
When the EU referendum was first announced, I made a Lexit argument when the topic came up. A vote for the EU is a vote for capitalism, austerity and militarised borders, I’d say. The reality is that argument has elicited only the minutest of echoes. The Brexit campaign has been entirely dominated by the ugliest form of Euroscepticism imaginable. As Priyamvada Gopal has put it, a vote for Brexit is a vote for the “magnificent lie that exploitation, austerity, greed and impoverishment have all come to Britain from the nasty outside”.

[url=http://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/06/19/brexit-nostalgia-empire/]Brexit as Nostalgia for Empire [/url]

An article from a leftist Euroskeptic, pointing out that a Brexit win would be on the backs of racism, immigrant-phobia, and dreams of restoring the British empire. 

That's a simple evasion.  Just because the UK may be imperfect doesn't mean that the EU isn't worse.  And it's not just the UK that is at stake.  It's whether yoiu want neo-liberalism to be stronger and on a wider scale.  A step in defeating neo-liberalism, ot at least halting its spread, is to weaken the EU.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I watched "Brexit the movie" and it referred to the 19th Century when Britain was the largest economy in the world. It conveniently avoided the fact that Britain had a huge colonial empire which it could exploit to raise living standards at home. Britain would not have that now. That still does not necessarily mean that belonging to a neoliberal European regime is a good thing.

Were I British, I would probably be a leftist Eurosceptic, however I do not like Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage. Europe has forced a minimum wage on the UK (around 1998) and other worker regulations (which are not enough). In a rapaciously capitalist country like England, perhaps some socialist bureaucracy is needed as a counterfoil. The problem is that the EU is a neoliberal bureaucracy.

If the vote is close, much of Europe will go into neverendum mode. As we are told, markets hate uncertainty.

josh

josh wrote:

Inside every Blairite is a Thatcherite dying to break free.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/26/robert-mundell-evi...

The euro would really do its work when crises hit, Mundell explained. Removing a government's control over currency would prevent nasty little elected officials from using Keynesian monetary and fiscal juice to pull a nation out of recession.

"It puts monetary policy out of the reach of politicians," he said. "[And] without fiscal policy, the only way nations can keep jobs is by the competitive reduction of rules on business."

He cited labor laws, environmental regulations and, of course, taxes. All would be flushed away by the euro. Democracy would not be allowed to interfere with the marketplace 

 

 

 

Stockholm

Britain doesn't use the Euro, it uses the Pound Sterling so who cares about the Euro? its a non-issue as far as thre UK is concerned. The UK is free to opt out of the Euro and the Schengen agreement as they have done. This is the beauty of Europe, every country can find its own solution while still being one big happy family.

NorthReport

No two economists agree on anything But the fact that the most despicible politicians in the UK are supporting Brexit should be enough to put an end to this absurd idea that putting up more barriers will help people
And the fact that the EC is in place to avoid World Wars and has been working should be enough to bury Brexit People who avoid learning from history are doomed to repeat it

NorthReport

Northern Ireland's greatest fear from Brexit is a return to violence

swallow swallow's picture

josh wrote:

That's a simple evasion.  Just because the UK may be imperfect doesn't mean that the EU isn't worse.  And it's not just the UK that is at stake.  It's whether yoiu want neo-liberalism to be stronger and on a wider scale.  A step in defeating neo-liberalism, ot at least halting its spread, is to weaken the EU.

Possibly true from the European point of view.

The whole article is worth a read, and exalains why British left Eurosketpcics are linging up to support Remain rather than Leave. I think the author's point of view is that the Brexit campaign is fuelled by racist populaism and hatred of immigrants and could lead to a government headed by those people. UKIP's adulation of Boris Johnson shows who they want as PM. Then there's the Brexit campaign's single-minded focus on immigrants and advocacy of an Australia-style immigration policy, the domination by English voices who wish to re-assert control over Scotland and Wales. It is all shot through with the racism and England-first nationalism of the English well-funded far-right counter-elite, which calls for a new age of English supremacy and bases its arguments not on an attack on neo-liberalism (which it welcomes) but on attacks on foreigners. 

Trump wants to tear down NAFTA. Is that an attack on neo-liberalism too? Might be good for the world, actually. So maybe we should all be hoping for a Trump presidency as a blow against neo-liberalism? 

Stockholm

In fact if Britain seceded from the EU, it would inevitably mean an end to the open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That border would become an external border between the EU and the rest of the world and guard posts and passport controls and barbed wire fences would go up around Northern Ireland.

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