Brexit

707 posts / 0 new
Last post
Aristotleded24

Stockholm wrote:

This video by Owen Jones on the DIRE consequences of a Brexit is well worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FqAaD_lsRw&list=PLTYmWuFco1_1xD06DoY0BR...

Would these be the same dire consequences that gripped France and The Netherlands following their 2005 failure to ratify the EU Treaty in a referendum? I seem to remember there was all sort of panic about what would happen, but last time I checked, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west, the moon still shines, the stars still come out at night, and the Big Dipper constellation is still in place.

6079_Smith_W

They didn't withdraw. They still use the Euro, and they are still members.

I suppose we could also ask if they are workers paradises because of that decision.

Aristotleded24

[url=http://commondreams.org/views/2016/06/22/brexit-anyone-why-us-should-car... is how public perception ended up at this point:[/url]

Quote:
And then there is the simple fact that many in the country are not in the mood to be told what to do by politicians. An enormous gap of trust has opened between the political establishment and much of the electorate. One poll this week showed that 46 percent of people planning to vote leave believed it was “probably true” that the referendum would be rigged. The paranoid style of politics has arrived in Britain.

It would be easy to dismiss this anger, but the fact is that it is grounded in reality. For many who live there, Britain and Europe do not feel like happy places right now. In Britain, the possibility of ever buying a house is fast running away from millennials, as the real-estate price bubble continues to grow, and the government shows no real will to meet social-housing building targets. The government appears intent on radical overhaul of institutions such as the National Health Service and the British Broadcasting Corporation, with many believing the real aim is to scrap them entirely. The decline of heavy industry such as steel, and even domestic retail chains such as British Home Stores, has left Britons feeling unanchored in a globalized economy. Terror attacks in Europe have made people across the continent feel less safe, and the EU’s response to the Syrian refugee crisis has been weak. The response for many has been to retreat. In spite of the more optimistic messages put forward by some Remainers of breaking the shackles and forging new partnerships in the world, the campaign has struggled to get its message beyond the bureaucratic. It seems impossible to make a case for Europe as a cultural, as well as political and economic entity, without sounding like the dreaded metropolitan liberal elite (“But the wine! The cheeses! The opera!”).

Orange Crushed

Yes, I'm not that surprised at the xenophobia displayed by the "Leave" side of the debate as the rightwing can't seem to embrace nationalism without bringing bigotry into it, but it isn't mostly about immgration but economics according to most polls, and I am surprised at how equally hysterical and empty the "Remain" campaign has been in response. 

It's not as if the EU has exactly stopped member nations from going to great lengths to keep non-European immigrants out.  And it's not like the EU has stopped warfare between nations either, let alone terrorism.  The recent wave of refugees is largely the result of European backed NATO "interventions" in the MiddleEast.  A larger surge of non-European immigration came when the old colonial empires were falling, despite what both camps are arguing. The resurrection of openly xenophobic fascist parties is also a mostly post-EU phenomena.  So I don't get the EU is a liberal security blanket, crazy quilt or not, argument.    

As for the economics driving it, I remember the EU concept promising a great deal even from a progressive perspective, but it's clearly done more damage than good to member nation's economies and the majority of citizens.  The EU's own authoritarian belly was pretty much exposed when they directly overruled the will of the majority in Greece and Iceland.  Repeatedly.  And offered nothing but more pain.  Whether the EU crumbles as a result is far from certain, but probably would cause some short term pain.  And some good policies might be lost.  But if it begins the process of unravelling the grip of international capital over once functional nation-states then I'd say it's probably a good thing in the long run. 

Thanks to that racist killer though the Remain camp will probably still win.  I wonder if he'll ever see the irony of that.  If the Remain camp wins even by the slightest margin, I doubt we'll see any meaningful soul searching or reforms in response.  Ideologues of the political centre maybe the worst because they can't even conceive that such a thing is possible.   They just know how the "real world" works; everyone (who's anyone) agrees.  

NorthReport

Obviously there are a lot of comments here from people who have never ever experienced war, which is what Europe tried to prevent after 2 World Wars. A little perspective please.

NorthReport

Brexit: The apocalypse

EU politicians are not much interested in what happens to the United Kingdom after it leaves (which it may well do, as an opinion poll last Friday gave “Leave” a ten-point lead). Britain was usually whiny and often downright obstructive in its dealings with the EU, and if it now chooses to commit a spectacular act of self-mutilation, the general European view will be that it deserves everything it gets.

That is likely to be quite a lot. If the U.K. loses duty-free access to the EU’s “single market” of 28 countries and 500 million people, it becomes far less attractive to non-European investors who want access to that market. It also loses every trade deal it has with other countries, since they were all negotiated by the EU as a whole. Britain could spend 10 years trying to renegotiate them on its own, and end up with much worse terms.

You might wonder how any sane British politician, knowing this, would risk holding a referendum, let alone advocate a “Leave” vote. The answer is a foolish miscalculation (on the part of U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron) and reckless ambition (on the part of his would-be successor, Boris Johnson).

Cameron promised the referendum three years ago merely as a device for preserving the unity of the Conservative Party. It would pacify the right-wing of his party, which wanted out, but he thought he would never have to hold the referendum because his coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, would veto it. Unfortunately, the Conservatives won a narrow majority in last year’s election, the coalition ended and Cameron was stuck with his promise.

So far, so stupid – and then Johnson, Britain’s somewhat better-mannered answer to Donald Trump, took the leadership of the “Leave” campaign. Johnson was not even a dedicated anti-EU campaigner, but he was certainly dedicated to taking the leadership of the Conservative Party and the prime ministership away from David Cameron.

Leading the “Leave” campaign to victory, forcing Cameron’s resignation and taking his place was the only way Johnson could achieve his ambition, so he took it. He has been utterly ruthless in his campaign tactics, telling lies he knows to be lies (like how much Britain pays in to the EU), and using anti-immigrant rhetoric that reeks of racism. So he may win.

But he wouldn’t enjoy being prime minister much, given what would happen to the United Kingdom if he wins. Scotland will certainly vote “Remain” and it would probably hold a second independence referendum and leave the U.K. rather than be dragged out of the European Union by English votes. And the truncated Britain that Johnson led would be dealing with a world of economic woe.

But what about the EU? Would it fragment? Would that lead to the destruction of “Western political civilization in its entirety,” as Tusk suggested?  (By that he presumably meant the end of the trans-Atlantic cooperation between the United States and a more or less unified Europe that has characterized Western strategy for the past 60 years.) 

Probably not. 

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/brexit-the-apocalypse.aspx?pageID=449&n...

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Obviously there are a lot of comments here from people who have never ever experienced war, which is what Europe tried to prevent after 2 World Wars. A little perspective please.

Obviously there are a lot of comments here by people who have a simplistic view of history and who are unaware of the role of the EU.

White Cat White Cat's picture

josh wrote:

Inside every Blairite is a Thatcherite dying to break free.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/26/robert-mundell-evi...

The idea that the euro has "failed" is dangerously naive. The euro is doing exactly what its progenitor – and the wealthy 1%-ers who adopted it – predicted and planned for it to do.

That progenitor is former University of Chicago economist Robert Mundell. [This] architect of "supply-side economics" [who did the] research on currencies and exchange rates had produced the blueprint for European monetary union and a common European currency.

But Mundell [came] up with a weapon that would blow away government rules and labor regulations. …

"It's very hard to fire workers in Europe," he complained. His answer: the euro.

The euro would really do its work when crises hit, Mundell explained. Removing a government's control over currency would prevent nasty little elected officials from using Keynesian monetary and fiscal juice to pull a nation out of recession.

"It puts monetary policy out of the reach of politicians," he said. "[And] without fiscal policy, the only way nations can keep jobs is by the competitive reduction of rules on business."

He cited labor laws, environmental regulations and, of course, taxes. All would be flushed away by the euro. Democracy would not be allowed to interfere with the marketplace… . As another Nobelist, Paul Krugman, notes, the creation of the eurozone violated the basic economic rule known as "optimum currency area". This was a rule devised by Bob Mundell.

That doesn't bother Mundell. For him, the euro wasn't about turning Europe into a powerful, unified economic unit. It was about Reagan and Thatcher.

"Ronald Reagan would not have been elected president without Mundell's influence," once wrote Jude Wanniski in the Wall Street Journal. The supply-side economics pioneered by Mundell became the theoretical template for Reaganomics ….

Mundell explained to me that, in fact, the euro is of a piece with Reaganomics:

"Monetary discipline forces fiscal discipline on the politicians as well."

And when crises arise, economically disarmed nations have little to do but wipe away government regulations wholesale, privatize state industries en masse, slash taxes and send the European welfare state down the drain.

Yes, why believe the architect of the euro-zone when he says he designed it for corrupt purposes (that even contradict his very own "optimum currency area" economic principle,) when you can believe establishment media lies?

Funny how the establishment only has to put up a picture of baby seals and suddenly everyone is in love with free trade and the euro-zone (designed to specifically to manufacture economic crises, bust labor and kill public benefits.)

The fact is free trade and a common-currency zone have absolutely nothing to do with European unity. They are simply failed economic policies.

I think establishment browbeaters and their PC useful idiots will win the day. But that only means something worse has to happen in order for change to come about.

(Or the continuing economic crisis will trigger fascist revolutions and world war when some European nations reject capitalism — and democracy — which is exactly what happened during the 1930s. Those who are willfully ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it — but not, necessarily, indefinitely.)

White Cat White Cat's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
"Brexit would deal a blow to global neoliberalism (with some disagreement as to how strong a blow, but certainly a blow nonetheless), which we want, but Brexit is supported by the facists and racists. Therefore, remain."

Do I have the right of it?

I think I suggested mostly the same thing in #45, but if you read the thread you can see that evidently I was just hallucinating or somethin'.

Nobody's saying "do" or "don't", but if you "do" then you're standing shoulder to shoulder with UKIP.  Think about that!

Donald Trump says free trade is a bad idea. Therefore if you're against free trade you are for Donald Trump!

Bring on the TPP man! Wouldn't want to be a "racist, misogynist Bernie Bro" standing shoulder to shoulder with Donald Trump!!

Unionist

I'm still trying to figure out what business it is of us Canadians whether the U.K. stays in some rich white man's chamber of commerce, or gets out to form its own.

I'm so thrilled that Obama went there and told them what to do. It's as American as apple pie.

Will Jeremy Corbyn be coming here to preach the glories (or the gories) of NAFTA any time soon?

Someone upthread intimated that if Britain Brexits, my investments will take a dive. Guess what, no big loss.

So, don't mind me, carry on the Bullxit!

 

josh

Unionist wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out what business it is of us Canadians whether the U.K. stays in some rich white man's chamber of commerce, or gets out to form its own.

 

 

"Business?  Business?  Mankind was my business."

Unionist

josh wrote:

Unionist wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out what business it is of us Canadians whether the U.K. stays in some rich white man's chamber of commerce, or gets out to form its own.

"Business?  Business?  Mankind was my business."

LOL. And the union workhouses... are they still in operation?

josh

Unionist wrote:

josh wrote:

Unionist wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out what business it is of us Canadians whether the U.K. stays in some rich white man's chamber of commerce, or gets out to form its own.

"Business?  Business?  Mankind was my business."

LOL. And the union workhouses... are they still in operation?

Yes, except that they're not unionized anymore.

6079_Smith_W

This is a news site, Unionist. And the international news section.

You might consider it none of your business. Most of the rest of us - pro and con - do.

Aside from the fact many of us have family and friends over there, what happens in Europe does have an effect on us. The last time things went sideways over there it had a big effect on us.

And contrary to the notion that it is just switching one boys club for another, one of the things that will be jeopardized by a vote to leave is the Northern Ireland Agreement, since it is based on Britain being a signator to the EU conventions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-f...

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

And contrary to the notion that it is just switching one boys club for another, one of the things that will be jeopardized by a vote to leave is the Northern Ireland Agreement, since it is based on Britain being a signator to the EU conventions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-f...

Haha, what a piece of work she is! Whining and complaining that Northern Ireland's fate might be decided by someone other than the people of Northern Ireland.

Given that she "specialises in fund management, insurance, financial regulation" and the like, she can be forgiven for being, um, dumb.

She hasn't noticed that Northern Ireland isn't in the EU. If you don't join, you can't quit. It's tough, isn't it?

Oh, why doesn't it join? Because, well, it's not a country (thank God). It's a little colony of (what she calls) "Great Britain". And apparently she likes it that way, because here's the alternative:

the fund management specialist wrote:
Sinn Fein has already begun proposing a new referendum for the unification of Ireland – a move that has the potential to undo all the hard work of the peace process, regardless of the result.

Imagine - the Irish people voting as to whether or not they want the Irish people to be together in a state of Ireland.

That would certainly undo all the "hard work" of those, like Gaw, who measure "democracy" by whether it spits out the results that they like.

Thanks for another chapter in my upcoming Bullxit book!

6079_Smith_W

You make it sound so easy, Unionist.

Except that without the Good Friday Agreement, Westminster isn't compelled to do anything at all, no matter what they say.

And of course, we're over here, so as you say we don't need to worry about what might happen.

6079_Smith_W
josh

YouGov "exit" poll has it 52-48 remain. And Farage says that looks like remain will win.

NorthReport

Farage concedes.

I suppose Cameron will be treated like a hero now.  Frown

NorthReport
NorthReport
josh

NorthReport wrote:

Farage concedes.

I suppose Cameron will be treated like a hero now.  Frown


If anyone's a hero for remain it's Corbyn. According to the YouGuv survey, while a majority of Conservatives voted for leave, two-thirds of Labour voters voted to remain in an entity that pursues Thatcher-like policies.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Nigel Farage’s evening has mirrored his performance in the referendum: one controversy after another. First he appeared to concede. Then he unconceded. Then he reconceded. Then he took it all back. He told the Telegraph that the Government’s decision to extend the period for registering helped Remain. Thus we see the beginnings of the stabbed in the back myth of this referendum – the inevitable claim that it just wasn’t fair.

I'm starting to think that's the case with every possible referendum -- past, present or future.

"The fix was in!  They were out to get us!  They ingeniously designed this so that we would lose", say losers.

6079_Smith_W

 

Quote:

Thus we see the beginnings of the stabbed in the back myth of this referendum

Oh great. Not only do we get to remember the events of 100 years ago, we get to repeat them.

And of course.. the lizard people:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-brexit-how-...

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

A week from now (or less):  "It's NOT a myth!!  Educate yourself!!!!!"

josh

Things look close. Could go either way.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

This BBC page has a good layout of current results.

iyraste1313

Early results in England do not look good for Remain...BREXIT could win by a good margin......if so!

Watch for the banking stock collapse, the banks already super vulnerable...

A BREXIT will mean a serious slap in the face for the social democratic left!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

This article mirrors much of my thinking on the EU and large organizations in general. The arguments for staying in the EU are the same ones we would hear in Canada if we had a referendum on NAFTA. The business press would be screaming that the sky will fall if we don't stay in the corporate dominated agreement. 

Quote:

Years ago, the great Austrian economist Leopold Kohr argued that overwhelming evidence from science, culture and biology all pointed to one unending truth: things improve with an unending process of division.

The breakdown ensured that nothing ever got too big for its own britches or too unmanageable or unaccountable. Small things simply worked best.  

Kohr pegged part of the problem with bigness as "the law of diminishing sensitivity." The bigger a government or market or corporation got, the less sensitive it became to matters of the neighbourhood.

In the end bigness, just like any empire, concentrated power and delivered misery, corruption and waste.  

And that's the problem today with the European Union, big corporations, large governments and a long parade of big trade pacts.

In the global labyrinth of bigness, the European Union has become another symbol of oversized ineptness along with a technological deafness that ignores locality, human temperament, culture, ecology, tradition, democracy and diversity.

In its bigness, the Union has failed. It can no longer manage its own currency, let alone economic stagnation. It can't solve the debt of Italy and Greece or address the flood of migrants from North Africa. One bungled decision after another has inflamed political communities of the left and right throughout Europe.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/06/23/EU-Misery-of-Bigness/

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

Kohr pegged part of the problem with bigness as "the law of diminishing sensitivity." The bigger a government or market or corporation got, the less sensitive it became to matters of the neighbourhood.

In the end bigness, just like any empire, concentrated power and delivered misery, corruption and waste.

Just governments, markets and corporations?  Not unions?

I'm not asking this to criticize unions, but does this apply to them too, or why not?

Quote:
In its bigness, the Union has failed.

Wait, what??  Which union??

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Kohr pegged part of the problem with bigness as "the law of diminishing sensitivity." The bigger a government or market or corporation got, the less sensitive it became to matters of the neighbourhood.

In the end bigness, just like any empire, concentrated power and delivered misery, corruption and waste.

Just governments, markets and corporations?  Not unions?

I'm not asking this to criticize unions, but does this apply to them too, or why not?

Quote:
In its bigness, the Union has failed.

Wait, what??  Which union??

Unifor is  good example of a union that is too big. Historically the One Big Union movement envisioned general strikes and other direct action events to bring about socialism. Unifor is a monstrous bureaucracy and all bargaining is done in discrete silos and there is no cross certification solidarity that involves other workers in the tradition that an injury to one is an injury to all. 

 

iyraste1313

Kropotkin...thanks for your clarity!

swallow swallow's picture

"The Union" means the union of England with Scotland and co.

6079_Smith_W

Right. Just like Darwin proves Ayn Rand.

(edit)

Northern Ireland has voted to remain. And Scotland is leaning strongly in that direction.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/financial-markets-forecast-defeat-brexit-vo...

 

josh

Looks like leave is heading for the win.

swallow swallow's picture

Definitely looks that way - apparently Labour's war room is now operating on the assumption that Leave will win.

A useful results page with areas arranged by population and some interesting demographic breakdowns at http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-refere...

6079_Smith_W

Farange claims victory "without a single bullet being fired".

 

NorthReport
NDPP

George Galloway: Just One More Thing...

https://youtu.be/XDJmHk1xPk4

"They have tried everything to terrify you. Stop overestimating the Roman Empire that is the EU..."

 

White Cat White Cat's picture

Woohoo! The people have spoken and they have given a great big resounding GFY!!! to empire-building plutocrats!

The Death Star has not been shot down out of the sky yet, however. Next stop: shove Donald Trump up the American establishment's arse. Next stop, rebuilding of the Democratic party after a humiliating defeat against the most corrupt politician in American history. Next stop, president Elizabeth Warren channels FDR ushering in a progressive revolution founded on tried-and-true Keynesian 'New Deal' economics in 2020.

No stopping until every trace of influence from entitled sociopaths is removed from democratic government across the globe!

The problem with the movements of the 1930s and 1960s? They stopped. This time we make the movement permanent!

 

Debater

This could lead to the resignations of both David Cameron & Jeremy Corbyn.

There are already MPs calling for both their resignations.

Meanwhile, the pound has fallen to its lowest level in decades.

Politicians from other European countries are also calling to exit the EU.

So lots of chaotic times ahead.

NDPP

The Jo Cox Tragedy: Why Opposing Fascism Does Not Mean Supporting the EU

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/347507-brexit-cox-uk-eu/

"The attempt to caricature opponents of the EU as mean-spirited, racist and borderline racist 'Little Englanders' also ignores the fact that some of the strongest voices of opposition to the EU have come from the genuinely internationalist socialist Left.

'If EU defended workers rights why would Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley be paying for the campaign to persuade you to stay in it?"

 

Just imagine a majority choosing to ignore Lord Jacob Rothschild's warning in The Times or the other PTB below....

NATO and US Defence Chiefs Issue Security Warnings over Brexit

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/10/nato-chief-brexit-warnin...

The empire is pissed...now will come the punishment followed by 'Plan B'

 

 

bekayne

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/24/european-far-right-hails-b...

Europe’s far-right parties hailed the UK’s vote to leave the European Union as a victory for their own anti-immigrant and anti-EU stance and vowed to push for similar referendums in their own countries.

France’s Front National (FN) saw it as a clear boost for Marine Le Pen’s presidential bid next year and momentum for the party’s anti-Europe and anti-immigration line.

Le Pen told RTL radio: “Like a lot of French people, I’m very happy that the British people held on and made the right choice. What we thought was impossible yesterday has now become possible.”

Florian Philippot, the party’s vice president, tweeted: “The freedom of the people always ends up winning! Bravo United Kingdom. Now it’s our turn!”

 

Debater
White Cat White Cat's picture

NDPP wrote:

The Jo Cox Tragedy: Why Opposing Fascism Does Not Mean Supporting the EU

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/347507-brexit-cox-uk-eu/

"The attempt to caricature opponents of the EU as mean-spirited, racist and borderline racist 'Little Englanders' also ignores the fact that some of the strongest voices of opposition to the EU have come from the genuinely internationalist socialist Left.

'If EU defended workers rights why would Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley be paying for the campaign to persuade you to stay in it?"

The establishment said the same thing about Bernie Sanders supporters: they're all racist, misogynist, angry, white males. 

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots. The establishment is not going to stop playing that card until they destroy the movement to end their stranglehold over the government and the economy.

They own the media; they've abundtly demonstrated they'll say anything to get their way; and they're just getting started.

White Cat White Cat's picture

Debater wrote:

DAVID CAMERON RESIGNS

Will quit over the next 3 months by October.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36615028

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-resigns-resi...

What a coward. A con man never fails to disgust. 

Go hide in the broom closet MF!

josh

Debater wrote:

This could lead to the resignations of both David Cameron & Jeremy Corbyn.

There are already MPs calling for both their resignations.

Meanwhile, the pound has fallen to its lowest level in decades.

Politicians from other European countries are also calling to exit the EU.

So lots of chaotic times ahead.

Why should Corbyn resign? His possible successors supported remain as well.

Stockholm

Looks like Corbyn is toast. Well over the required 50 Labour MPs are writing letters demanding a new leadership contest because Corbyn campaigned so miserably for Remain. His disapproval numbers are sky high and he proved totally out of step with sentiments in the Labour heartlands. It's expected Labour will elect a new leader in September with the possibility of a snap general election by the end of the year.

swallow swallow's picture

Quote:
For the rest of the country, the divisions revealed by this map are newer – but not entirely novel. As in the last general election, most of the UK has gone one way, but Scotland, London, university towns and several other big cities have gone quite another.

[url=http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/eu-voting-map-lays-bare-... voting map analyzed[/url]

6079_Smith_W

White Cat wrote:

Woohoo! The people have spoken and they have given a great big resounding GFY!!! to empire-building plutocrats!

The Death Star has not been shot down out of the sky yet, however. Next stop: shove Donald Trump up the American establishment's arse. Next stop, rebuilding of the Democratic party after a humiliating defeat against the most corrupt politician in American history. Next stop, president Elizabeth Warren channels FDR ushering in a progressive revolution founded on tried-and-true Keynesian 'New Deal' economics in 2020.

No stopping until every trace of influence from entitled sociopaths is removed from democratic government across the globe!

The problem with the movements of the 1930s and 1960s? They stopped. This time we make the movement permanent!

Um. You do know that Donald Trump supports Brexit eh? And that Warren has endorsed Clinton.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/24/donald-trump-hails-eu-re...

And your "old days" movement didn't stop. It did this. Young people (and the educated) voted in far greater numbers to remain in the E.U.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results...

I don't know if this is star wars (thanks for sparing us the Sauron's all-seeing eye or breaking into elvish) but if you want war there are going to be some shiny new border posts to bomb.

and you could have spared us the "MF" too. We all know what it means.

After the sunny predictions upthread about Ireland and this, maybe we should move this to the speulative fiction thread.

About the only cheery thing  I see coming out of this is Scotland calling another refendum to leave the U.K. and re-join the E.U.

Northern Ireland - which also voted to remain -  used to have that option. They lost it last night.

 

 

Pages

Topic locked