Brexit

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josh

Stockholm wrote:
Looks like Corbyn is toast. Well over the required 50 Labour MPs are writing letters demanding a new leadership contest because Corbyn campaigned so miserably for Remain. His disapproval numbers are sky high and he proved totally out of step with sentiments in the Labour heartlands. It's expected Labour will elect a new leader in September with the possibility of a snap general election by the end of the year.

The Blairites in the caucus have been looking to get rid of Corbyn ever since he was elected by the rank and file. Corbyn campaigned hard for remain, as his Twitter feed would attest. But no matter what he did it it wouldn't have been good enough for the Blairites. They're like their beloved EU, contemptuous of democracy and worshipful of the market.

6079_Smith_W

And the backpedaling on promises has begun. Farage was just kidding about using EU money to fund health care.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pled...

josh

Farage doesn't decide anything. He has 1 seat.

iyraste1313

Woohoo! The people have spoken and they have given a great big resounding GFY!!! to empire-building plutocrats!...

Next step? The unravelling of the United Kingdom...next step, the exit of Italy and France and the final collapse of the EU...

Meanwhile watch the global banking collapse, the QE failed attempts, the volatility of the currencies, the skyrocketing of preciouis metals and inflation of basic necessities.....

But rebuilding old line globalist parties???

NO!!! We need to begin building real economies under sovereign control, from the grass roots...
¨The problem with the movements of the 1930s and 1960s? They stopped. This time we make the movement permanent!¨

Yes!! Where do we begin?

6079_Smith_W

You're assuming I ever trusted anything that came out of his mouth to begin with.

My point is that it was one of the lies this swindle was sold on. It was on the campaign posters.  And he has come right out and admitted it.

And this:

bekayne

White Cat wrote:

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

NDPP

You Talk About A Collapse of Western Civilisation As If It Would Be A Bad Thing

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/23/-you-talk-about-the-collapse-of-w...

"A call for a wider global discussion about how Europe may be kept in peace and prosperity alongside everyone else, as opposed to at the expense of everyone else, as has been, and remains, the case in today's world..."

 

The Coming End of the EU-USA Military Industrial Complex

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/23/the-coming-end-of-the-eu-usa-mili...

"The Left wing case for Britain remaining in the EU is not really Left at all..."

 

Galloway: Independence Day Broadcast

https://youtu.be/H68SYOoaahY

"The people have spoken. The people have triumphed. Jeremy Corbyn could win that general election..."

Debater

David Cameron Was a Historic and Disastrous Failure

The prime minister wanted to modernize the Tory Party and unify the United Kingdom. He accomplished exactly the opposite.

June 24, 2016

Quote:
This is how a political life ends: with a crash, not a whimper. David Cameron’s place in history is now assured. He is the man who took the United Kingdom out of the European Union. As we wait for the full impact of Thursday’s referendum to be felt, he may be remembered as the prime minister who presided over the beginning of the end of the United Kingdom, too. Scottish independence, defeated as an idea just two years ago, is back on the table.

Cameron’s ten years as leader of the Conservative party and six as prime minister now boil down to these solitary facts. Nothing else matters; nothing else will be remembered. Cameron gambled everything on one roll of the dice and lost it all.

No prime minister in living memory has suffered a defeat of such cataclysmic proportions; none has been so thoroughly humiliated by his own electorate. Cameron lost control of his party and then his country. The consequences of that carelessness will be felt, in Britain and internationally, for years to come. Future political historians will ponder a melancholy question: what was the point of David Cameron? And their judgment is likely to be severe.

bekayne

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I've always opposed the EU. I found it took away the sovereignty of European countries and the change in currency would make for a disaster down the line. Personally,I think everyone should pull out of the EU.

But I feel VERY uncomfortable aligned with far right fascists. My problem with the EU has nothing to do with immigration,taxes,political correctness and all that open mouth AM radio bullshit.

It wasgood to see Cameron exit. Ciao,asshole. But Boris Johnson? At this point he and England deserve each other.

jjuares

alan smithee wrote:

I've always opposed the EU. I found it took away the sovereignty of European countries and the change in currency would make for a disaster down the line. Personally,I think everyone should pull out of the EU.

But I feel VERY uncomfortable aligned with far right fascists. My problem with the EU has nothing to do with immigration,taxes,political correctness and all that open mouth AM radio bullshit.

It wasgood to see Cameron exit. Ciao,asshole. But Boris Johnson? At this point he and England deserve each other.


I always like the concept of a European Union. Unfortunately the reality has turned out to be much uglier than the vision.

White Cat White Cat's picture

bekayne wrote:

White Cat wrote:

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

Oh, so you're calling me a racist, misosynist Bernie Bro? Thank you very much. Now I get to do what I couldn't when corrupt POS sellouts like Hillary Clinton and Paul Krugman were saying the same thing: FOAD you ignornant little establishment bitch! 

God damn dittoheads of the left! Just as uinformed and intellectually lazy as your counterparts on the right. Go pimp the TPP you f*cking airhead! 

6079_Smith_W

Well if your default is sexist insults, yeah, I'll say misogynist. I let one pass (which you clearly recognized, as you edited it out), but this one is going to the mods. None of us needs to listen to this.

bekayne

abnormal

Seems the aged population are responsible for leaving a legacy that the UK's younger population don't want.

[img]http://i63.tinypic.com/28m1zpw.jpg[/img]

ygtbk

abnormal wrote:

Seems the aged population are responsible for leaving a legacy that the UK's younger population don't want.

[img]http://i63.tinypic.com/28m1zpw.jpg[/img]

So, do-over in 30 years?

quizzical

would it work? or do the demographics show the older you get the wiser and less guilable and naive you are?

quizzical

bekayne wrote:
White Cat wrote:
Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

soooooo it's ok for you to lay in the beds of those like Cameron the current male equivalent of Thatcher? lmaooooooooooooooooooooooo

pot meet kettle.

it amazes me the lack of self realization people who make these types of bullying and marginalizing comments have. they never look at who they're in bed with.

oh right. because they don't think they are while they accuse others of doing. most likely they're not. so maybe you and others like you should stop accusing others who aren't?

quizzical

alan smithee wrote:
But I feel VERY uncomfortable aligned with far right fascists. My problem with the EU has nothing to do with immigration,taxes,political correctness and all that open mouth AM radio bullshit.

It was good to see Cameron exit. Ciao,asshole. But Boris Johnson? At this point he and England deserve each other.

i don't think calling the majority of British far right  fascists is an accurate depiction of anything.

and what? to be aligned with Cameron, is so much better? a supporter of the 1%? which is where you are if you voted remain.

shakes head at some people's inability to see.

ygtbk

quizzical wrote:

would it work? or do the demographics show the older you get the wiser and less guilable and naive you are?

Darn good question! I'd like to believe that I get wiser as I get older, but that's an awfully convenient belief...

6079_Smith_W

Thatcher would have loved this result.

quizzical

ygtbk wrote:
quizzical wrote:
would it work? or do the demographics show the older you get the wiser and less guilable and naive you are?

Darn good question! I'd like to believe that I get wiser as I get older, but that's an awfully convenient belief...

i'm standing in the middle generation. i know whose opinions i would trust.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quizzical wrote:

alan smithee wrote:
But I feel VERY uncomfortable aligned with far right fascists. My problem with the EU has nothing to do with immigration,taxes,political correctness and all that open mouth AM radio bullshit.

It was good to see Cameron exit. Ciao,asshole. But Boris Johnson? At this point he and England deserve each other.

i don't think calling the majority of British far right  fascists is an accurate depiction of anything.

and what? to be aligned with Cameron, is so much better? a supporter of the 1%? which is where you are if you voted remain.

shakes head at some people's inability to see.

You're just a shit disturber. I said no such things. Piss off,trouble maker.

quizzical

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Thatcher would have loved this result.

how do you know? or is it just convienent for you to expropriate?

i think there's no difference between her and the current 1% choice.

quizzical

alan smithee wrote:
quizzical wrote:
alan smithee wrote:
But I feel VERY uncomfortable aligned with far right fascists. My problem with the EU has nothing to do with immigration,taxes,political correctness and all that open mouth AM radio bullshit.

It was good to see Cameron exit. Ciao,asshole. But Boris Johnson? At this point he and England deserve each other.

i don't think calling the majority of British far right  fascists is an accurate depiction of anything.

and what? to be aligned with Cameron, is so much better? a supporter of the 1%? which is where you are if you voted remain.

shakes head at some people's inability to see.

You're just a shit disturber. I said no such things. Piss off,trouble maker.

personal attacks aside.

what else could be perceived by your "aligned with the far right fascists" comment? seeing the majority of Britian voted to exit.

Aristotleded24

6079_Smith_W wrote:
You do know that Donald Trump supports Brexit eh?

So I guess that since Trump also called the war on Iraq a disaster and humiliated the Bush family during one of the Republican debates, we must now think of the Iraq war as a good idea and the Bush Presidents as the best presidents the US has ever had?

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And that Warren has endorsed Clinton.

So? Clinton is an unacceptable candidate for President even with the endorsement of Jesus Christ Himself. So many people are angry with Warren for that endorsement and many former fans have turned on her for that reason.

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And your "old days" movement didn't stop. It did this. Young people (and the educated) voted in far greater numbers to remain in the E.U.

Ah yes, going to University and reading a few books all of a sudden makes you oh-so-much-bettah than everyone else? I'm just wondering if those people in Britain who can only afford an "exotic foreign getaway" that involves a day trip to Scotland, England, or Wales (depending on which country they live in and where they are going) really care about what this means for easily moving around the Continent?

During the 2004 election, I read a great article linked to through Michael Moore's website about an anarchist who went undercover into Republican territory to learn more about them, and I wish I could remember who it was or where to find it. Certainly the sin of many in the conservative camp is to hunker in their tribal bunkers and not care about what goes on outside of their communities. This author argued that on the flip side, the sin of many liberals is that they know very well what goes on in other parts of the world but don't make the effort to get to know people in their own countries. And certainly there is a disturbing undercurrent of racism and xenophobia in the vote, but the fact that so many liberals argued for Britain to remain and the people rejected them really speaks to how they have lost touch with the people they are supposed to represent. And rather than try and learn anything, nope, they already know everything, and these stupid people just have to be "educated" up to our standards.

Stockholm wrote:
Looks like Corbyn is toast. Well over the required 50 Labour MPs are writing letters demanding a new leadership contest because Corbyn campaigned so miserably for Remain. His disapproval numbers are sky high and he proved totally out of step with sentiments in the Labour heartlands.

Scotland and Metro London voted to stay in the EU.

josh

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Thatcher would have loved this result.

Why? The EU pursues her privatization, austerity and anti-Union agenda with a vengance.

quizzical

Aristotleded24 wrote:
...on the flip side, the sin of many liberals is that they know very well what goes on in other parts of the world but don't make the effort to get to know people in their own countries.

i've often said if the so called progressives in this country focused on this country's continuing genocide instead of looking to "help" somewere else, maybe Aboriginals in Canada would not be in the state they are.

Aristotleded24

quizzical wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:
...on the flip side, the sin of many liberals is that they know very well what goes on in other parts of the world but don't make the effort to get to know people in their own countries.

i've often said if the so called progressives in this country focused on this country's continuing genocide instead of looking to "help" somewere else, maybe Aboriginals in Canada would not be in the state they are.

Especially when there is rampant poverty here in Canada that persists, and yet Prime Ministers will announce aid for people in other countries as a PR stunt (which often times the aid doesn't really help those when you look at what actually happens) and people who are suffering here become resentful, and that only fuels the xenophobia that politicians like Donald Trump and UKIP use to their political advantage.

bekayne

White Cat wrote:

bekayne wrote:

White Cat wrote:

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

Oh, so you're calling me a racist, misosynist Bernie Bro? Thank you very much. Now I get to do what I couldn't when corrupt POS sellouts like Hillary Clinton and Paul Krugman were saying the same thing: FOAD you ignornant little establishment bitch! 

God damn dittoheads of the left! Just as uinformed and intellectually lazy as your counterparts on the right. Go pimp the TPP you f*cking airhead! 

Nothing to do with Bernie Sanders. It's about standing with Farage, Le Pen and Trump.

MegB

White Cat wrote:

bekayne wrote:

White Cat wrote:

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

Oh, so you're calling me a racist, misosynist Bernie Bro? Thank you very much. Now I get to do what I couldn't when corrupt POS sellouts like Hillary Clinton and Paul Krugman were saying the same thing: FOAD you ignornant little establishment bitch! 

God damn dittoheads of the left! Just as uinformed and intellectually lazy as your counterparts on the right. Go pimp the TPP you f*cking airhead! 

Goodbye.

quizzical

bekayne wrote:
Nothing to do with Bernie Sanders. It's about standing with Farage, Le Pen and Trump.

see post 218

quizzical

Aristotleded24 wrote:
quizzical wrote:
Aristotleded24 wrote:
...on the flip side, the sin of many liberals is that they know very well what goes on in other parts of the world but don't make the effort to get to know people in their own countries.

i've often said if the so called progressives in this country focused on this country's continuing genocide instead of looking to "help" somewere else, maybe Aboriginals in Canada would not be in the state they are.

Especially when there is rampant poverty here in Canada that persists, and yet Prime Ministers will announce aid for people in other countries as a PR stunt (which often times the aid doesn't really help those when you look at what actually happens) and people who are suffering here become resentful, and that only fuels the xenophobia that politicians like Donald Trump and UKIP use to their political advantage.

right on spot!!!!!!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Trump is against the TPP so I guess all progressives should support it. Brian Mulroney was in favour of regulations to end acid rain so back in the day I should have opposed them, after all I hated Lying Brian. The idea that you look at who is for or against a given issue rather than the issue itself is a very bad way to make policy decisions.

quizzical

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Trump is against the TPP so I guess all progressives should support it. Brian Mulroney was in favour of regulations to end acid rain so back in the day I should have opposed them, after all I hated Lying Brian. The idea that you look at who is for or against a given issue rather than the issue itself is a very bad way to make policy decisions.

i know hey.

it's a bad way to live life let alone make policy choices.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quizzical wrote:

 

personal attacks aside.

what else could be perceived by your "aligned with the far right fascists" comment? seeing the majority of Britian voted to exit.

This is what makes you a trouble maker. I was lamenting the fact that I oppose the EU which is agreed upon by far right fascists. It made me uncomfortable. End quote.

you do this over and over,always cherry picking my comments and attacking me as something I'm clearly not.

Now piss off,agitator.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

bekayne wrote:

White Cat wrote:

Progressives better get used to getting lumped in with hate-filled right-wing crackpots

If you're going to lie down with them then, yeah, I should think so.

You are making assumptions about the people who voted to leave. It appears that many intelligent and educated people voted to leave.  Like I've said before just because a hate filled right wing crackpot like Trump opposes TPP doesn't mean I should support it or that I am getting in bed with racists.

This is a thoughtful article that delves into the depth of the issue.

Quote:

Tens of thousands of black and Asian people will have voted for Brexit, and similar numbers of politically educated, left-leaning workers too. Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield and Coventry — multi-ethnic university cities — they too went for Leave.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/brexit-wins-an-illusion-dies/

6079_Smith_W

Aristotleded24 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:
You do know that Donald Trump supports Brexit eh?

So I guess that since Trump also called the war on Iraq a disaster and humiliated the Bush family during one of the Republican debates, we must now think of the Iraq war as a good idea and the Bush Presidents as the best presidents the US has ever had?

My comment was in response to White Cat saying that Trump was next, as if he was presumably riding shotgun on the death star with the EU. For that matter, he is anti-NAFTA as well, so the comment is absurd.

quizzical

alan smithee wrote:
quizzical wrote:
personal attacks aside.

what else could be perceived by your "aligned with the far right fascists" comment? seeing the majority of Britian voted to exit.

This is what makes you a trouble maker. I was lamenting the fact that I oppose the EU which is agreed upon by far right fascists. It made me uncomfortable. End quote.

you do this over and over,always cherry picking my comments and attacking me as something I'm clearly not.

Now piss off,agitator.

i was lamenting the fact you were choosing to see yourself aligned with far right fascists instead of seeing way more people than far right facists wanted out. probably for a variety of reasons. i was not attacking you. yup a bit of tongue in cheek mockery of your choosing to see your choice of supporting exit as negative. no attack.

i admire the reality, though you might be uncomfortable, wrongly, seeing yourself aligned with "far right fascists", you still made the choice to stand where you are.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Yup. Working class uprising:

Quote:

The Queen’s biographer, Robert Lacey, reports that Her Majesty has been presenting her dinner guests with a special EU challenge of late. She has reportedly asked dinner companions: ‘Give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe’. Lacey has suggested that the phrasing of the question means that her comments ought to be interpreted as another indication that she backs Brexit.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/queens-brexit-challenge-dinner-gues...

And somehow I don't think it's like Louis putting on the tricolor to seem like part of the gang.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Yup. Working class uprising:

I guess maybe the issue and resulting vote are not as simplistic as some make it out to be. It seems that the leave vote cut across all demographic lines and the majority decided that negatives in the EU deal outweighed the positives.

If Canada had a vote on whether to leave NAFTA we would be bombarded by the same messaging as the Brits have just been subjected too. The real issues would be obfuscated and the ruling elite would be claiming the sky will fall if we leave.

6079_Smith_W

But it didn't. cut across all demographics.

Scotland and Northern Ireland and Greater London voted to stay. And there is a strong age divide. As noted above, those who pushed this through are the ones who are not going to have to live with the consequences.

As for all those Europeans who are currently working in Britain and vice versa, too bad, I guess.

For that matter, should have considered that voting actually means something. There are plenty of reports now about people waking up and wishing they could change their minds.

 

MegB

alan smithee wrote:

quizzical wrote:

 

personal attacks aside.

what else could be perceived by your "aligned with the far right fascists" comment? seeing the majority of Britian voted to exit.

This is what makes you a trouble maker. I was lamenting the fact that I oppose the EU which is agreed upon by far right fascists. It made me uncomfortable. End quote.

you do this over and over,always cherry picking my comments and attacking me as something I'm clearly not.

Now piss off,agitator.

You are responsible for allowing yourself to get riled up. Stop the personal attacks and try to disagree respectfully.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But it didn't. cut across all demographics.

Scotland and Northern Ireland and Greater London voted to stay. And there is a strong age divide. As noted above, those who pushed this through are the ones who are not going to have to live with the consequences.

Gee did the vote break 90% to 10% in Scotland and Northern Ireland and Greater London or even among the 18 to 24 crowd. No it didn't so obviously the leave vote must have cut across all demographics. You seem to have decided that in places where the Stay vote won the Leave vote was not relevant.

As for the F'ing ageism that is now making the rounds of people who hate it when the majority disagrees with them I guess we will just have to live with it. I am 65 so climate change will not effect me so basically the whole ageism stick says us old farts should shut up on the issue since we will not have to live with the consequences.

josh

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But it didn't. cut across all demographics.

Scotland and Northern Ireland and Greater London voted to stay. And there is a strong age divide. As noted above, those who pushed this through are the ones who are not going to have to live with the consequences.

As for all those Europeans who are currently working in Britain and vice versa, too bad, I guess.

For that matter, should have considered that voting actually means something. There are plenty of reports now about people waking up and wishing they could change their minds.

 


It divided the left and divided the right. And those in the middle for that matter. The younger and the older were pretty clearcut, but the 30-65 age group were divided.

bekayne

josh wrote:
6079_Smith_W wrote:

But it didn't. cut across all demographics.

Scotland and Northern Ireland and Greater London voted to stay. And there is a strong age divide. As noted above, those who pushed this through are the ones who are not going to have to live with the consequences.

As for all those Europeans who are currently working in Britain and vice versa, too bad, I guess.

For that matter, should have considered that voting actually means something. There are plenty of reports now about people waking up and wishing they could change their minds.

 

It divided the left and divided the right. And those in the middle for that matter. The younger and the older were pretty clearcut, but the 30-65 age group were divided.

And what was all this division for? To help win an election.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W

Kropotkin, you are insisting on 90 percent, and then you turn around and call 52 percent a majority?

Sorry, but numbers in the 60s are a clear majority And that is the case both for Scotland and young people under 24.

I can't think of too many places where you'd see 90 percent other than Crimea (98 I think it was).

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Very interesting numbers. It is worth looking at this breakdown and considering what it means. In particular the surprising role capitalism and anti-capitalism did not play.

 

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Kropotkin, you are insisting on 90 percent, and then you turn around and call 52 percent a majority?

Sorry, but numbers in the 60s are a clear majority And that is the case both for Scotland and young people under 24.

I can't think of too many places where you'd see 90 percent other than Crimea (98 I think it was).

I was not insisting on 90% I was merely pointing out that dismissing a large part of the population is not particularity helpful. Obviously the leave vote would have been higher in the UK if the alternative to staying was a future under a German speaking governor who hated the English language and everyone who speaks it.

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