Brexit

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Very interesting numbers. It is worth looking at this breakdown and considering what it means. In particular the surprising role capitalism and anti-capitalism did not play.

 

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/

Very interesting polling company as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11401622/Lord-Ashc...

6079_Smith_W

So he has been accused of being anti-Cameron?

 

Debater

Little in Brexit vote that will help Quebec’s sovereigntists

Chantal Hébert

The U.K. episode is just as likely to remind the majority of Quebecers who resist the prospect of another referendum just how divisive such exercises can be.

Fri., June 24, 2016

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/06/24/little-in-brexit-vote-tha...

NorthReport

Right wing Cameron and right wing BBC blows England's future

Go Scotland, Go Ireland Go!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

So he has been accused of being anti-Cameron?

That's what the article says but then finding Conservatives that don't like Cameron is likely not all that problematic.

I found this part of the poll interesting as well. It seems the less you follow politics the more likely you would have been to vote to leave but if you follow it a lot it is a toss up at a 50/50 split. 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is a geographic breakdown.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

6079_Smith_W

Yup. That makes sense, and it would explain the confused "leave" voters who are waking up wishing they could have changed their minds.

NorthReport

What a terrible legacy Cameron is leaving behind for others who will now have to attempt to clean up this mess

One thing that needs to be abolished everywhere are referendums

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

NorthReport wrote:
What a terrible legacy Cameron is leaving behind for others who will now have to attempt to clean up this mess One thing that needs to be abolished everywhere are referendums

LOL. Can't have the proles making idiotic decisions now, can we?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

As I understand it, the referendum was (formally) non-binding.

So the government could still say "Oh, sorry, we underestimated the strength of the yob vote.  Anyway, we're staying."

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people... the 75%: the young people who voted to remain in the EU[/url]

Quote:

I’ve always felt unwanted, uncomfortable, underrepresented. This result confirms my fears

"My first response was panic. I’m a recent graduate, already facing financial instability, uncertainty in the job market, trying to work out my future. A leave result means more anxiety for me, more instability to navigate and try to understand.

I’m also a woman of colour. From a young age, I’ve been aware of racist and nationalist attitudes in Britain, spread around the country outside of my home and haven of London. I’ve spent years watching people argue to dismantle the systems that allowed my mother and closest friends into the country to work, to lead better, productive lives. I’ve seen people screaming that my immigrant family (biological and chosen) are worthless, that they contribute nothing. And I’ve always felt unwanted, uncomfortable, underrepresented.

This result confirms my fears. That my families aren’t seen as people, as human. They’re numbers, they’re a swarm, a threat. They’re not welcome here, and as a product of immigration, neither am I. With this result, England clings on to its colonial history, and I’m ashamed."

Zainabb Hull, 23, London

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=http://rozworski.org/political-eh-conomy/2016/06/24/what-is-done-quick-t... is done: quick thoughts on Brexit|Political Eh-Conomy[/url]

Quote:

What is done is done regardless of where you were on the referendum—or like most of us, outside the UK. The two questions that grab me now are what lessons can be learned and how to salvage the moment for an anti-racist, anti-austerity coalition. Instead I’ve seen too many tears shed for the EU, which after all is no huge friend to migrants (see the mass graves under the Mediterranean or the camps in Greece) and a cudgel for neoliberal reforms, combined with too much smug condescension at the “stupid” Brits.

The choice between options represented by the upper class ninny Cameron and his upper class ninny foils Johnson and Farage was always a false one. It’s eerily similar to the choice between Clinton and Trump. Smug elitism gets us nowhere beyond the right’s version of internationalized neoliberalism or nationalist xenophobia. Only a strong alternative that looks the middle finger UK voters sent elites in the face can take ground away from the political reactionaries and xenophobes who have punched above their weight.

The referendum took place after four long decades of stagnant incomes, falling expectations and austerity from successive governments. It wasn’t just evil Tories, but New Labour as well, that gleefully transformed the UK economy away from the post-war class compromise (one breaking by the 1970s) towards today’s highly unequal version drunk on globalized finance. In many ways, this wasn’t a referendum on Europe—especially since the UK is out of the Euro, the biggest stick European elites can wield—but on UK elites and the damage they have done to working people.

The problem is that the most retrograde section of those same elites, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the rest of their sniveling crew, took advantage of the vacuum and made their xenophobic program the political expression of this anger. Labour’s long foray into enforcing austerity and capping living standards for the many left a long window to build and spread reactionary forces. I hope Corbyn and those around him can t push a genuine alternative and pull those who can be pulled away from this misdirected anger without talking down to them. This moment cannot belong to a racist gang of Etonians like Johnson and Farage who have no interest in reversing any of the attacks on regular people and will only pit people against one another, spreading racial hatred. But that will take real work.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

As I understand it, the referendum was (formally) non-binding.

So the government could still say "Oh, sorry, we underestimated the strength of the yob vote.  Anyway, we're staying."

This is my understanding as well. The only sanction would be the next election, when the government's failure to honour the result would be a central plank of the UKIP platform. Who knows how that would turn out?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
One thing that needs to be abolished everywhere are referendums

If people would agree to start voting for the things you like, would you agree to keeping them?

If not, should we also abolish general elections?  They're nothing more than "representation referendums" when you think about it.  Or what's the big difference?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Old people should not have been allowed to vote since they are just about dead anyways. 

Two LOLs in one evening! Just how old, K, does one have to be to qualify as "just about dead"? Laughing

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=https://www.thenation.com/article/political-elites-set-the-stage-for-a-b... Elites’ Program of Austerity Set the Stage for Brexit[/url]

Quote:
Many of the areas that voted to leave the EU actually have low migrant populations, but share a sharp rise in poverty over the past decade. After the recession, the UK economy has precariously recovered, but recovery is geographically tilted toward London. In the capital, house prices have risen massively, and wages are far beyond the average seen elsewhere in the country. Outside of London, jobs have been lost, wages depressed, and public services cut massively. Since 2010, the Conservatives’ austerity measures have slashed funding for the NHS, welfare spending, and budgets for social and public services: The keener the deprivation in an area, the higher the cuts, proportionally. So the poorest have borne the brunt of austerity, and had little left to lose. Warnings that the UK faced economic ruin if it voted to leave, borne out by sterling’s collapse to its lowest point since 1985 today, had little effect on communities that already feel excluded from the reported growth in other parts of the EU.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-work... now if you must – but prepare for the great challenges ahead[/url]

Quote:
If the left has a future in Britain, it must confront its own cultural and political disconnect with the lives and communities of working-class people. It must prepare for how it responds to a renewed offensive by an ascendant Tory right. On the continent, movements championing a more democratic and just Europe are more important than ever. None of this is easy – but it is necessary. Grieve now if you must, but prepare for the great challenges ahead.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Left Turn wrote:

[url=http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people... the 75%: the young people who voted to remain in the EU[/url]

 

I’ve always felt unwanted, uncomfortable, underrepresented. This result confirms my fears[/b]

"My first response was panic. I’m a recent graduate, already facing financial instability, uncertainty in the job market, trying to work out my future. A leave result means more anxiety for me, more instability to navigate and try to understand.

I’m also a woman of colour. From a young age, I’ve been aware of racist and nationalist attitudes in Britain, spread around the country outside of my home and haven of London. I’ve spent years watching people argue to dismantle the systems that allowed my mother and closest friends into the country to work, to lead better, productive lives. I’ve seen people screaming that my immigrant family (biological and chosen) are worthless, that they contribute nothing. And I’ve always felt unwanted, uncomfortable, underrepresented.

This result confirms my fears. That my families aren’t seen as people, as human. They’re numbers, they’re a swarm, a threat. They’re not welcome here, and as a product of immigration, neither am I. With this result, England clings on to its colonial history, and I’m ashamed."

Zainabb Hull, 23, London

Old people should not have been allowed to vote since they are just about dead anyways. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Regarding whether Britain will actually leave the E.U., I found this article in the Intercept quite interesting.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The only sanction would be the next election, when the government's failure to honour the result would be a central plank of the UKIP platform. Who knows how that would turn out?

Could be that voters would say "the other parties didn't listen when we spoke!" or they might say "Oh, thank God the government was smarter than I am!  If only they could have also been there to stop me from getting that drunken tattoo!!".

I have to say, though, that in a national context it's not even entirely clear to me what a non-binding referendum is supposed to mean.  Is it the same as those opinion polls like "Who's the greatest guitarist of all time?"?  If UKIP really wants to they can always remind voters that the government left themselves the option of declaring them too stupid and ignoring them if they wanted to.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The only sanction would be the next election, when the government's failure to honour the result would be a central plank of the UKIP platform. Who knows how that would turn out?

Could be that voters would say "the other parties didn't listen when we spoke!" or they might say "Oh, thank God the government was smarter than I am!  If only they could have also been there to stop me from getting that drunken tattoo!!".

I have to say, though, that in a national context it's not even entirely clear to me what a non-binding referendum is supposed to mean.  Is it the same as those opinion polls like "Who's the greatest guitarist of all time?"?  If UKIP really wants to they can always remind voters that the government left themselves the option of declaring them too stupid and ignoring them if they wanted to.

All good points. As a long-repented one time lawyer, it seems to me that in the British or Canadian constitution, there is no provision for referenda. Parliament is supreme, and cannot constitutionally bind itself to any future action. This is why Diefenbaker's well-meaning but naive Canadian Bill of Rights failed in the courts. A constitutional amendment would be necessary to create a legally binding referendum mechanism, just as it was necessary to create the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/wail-qasim-brexit-racism-reaction]Here's How We Fight Racism Now That Brexit Has Won[/url]

Quote:
This has to be a key moment for making the left-wing case for loosened borders. We need an end to the sort of pandering that says "of course immigration controls are necessary" when that isn't the problem we're facing. It might be what people feel strongly about, but it's our duty to challenge that and not play into the violence of borders. How do we start such an argument? There are plenty of reasons that explain why good jobs are hard to come by, hospitals are being strained and housing is absolutely inaccessible. None of them rely on blaming immigrants. They have a lot more to do with the private profit motives of business owners and landlords. That, and the government's desire to support them while destroying every bit of state help that made life liveable for many.

...

In such a climate, it's obvious that borders won't disappear overnight. Things are likely to get worse from here on, which means we have to be ready for practical anti-racist work. The Home Office's Immigration Enforcement rips people out of this country every day, and this referendum vote has just bolstered their role. Immigration raids are targeted racist state attacks on our communities and often take advantage of the popular climate of xenophobia to carry out their work. It is important, then, that we develop a culture of intervention to make their role much more difficult.

abnormal

quizzical wrote:

would it work? or do the demographics show the older you get the wiser and less guilable and naive you are?

It's the young people and the students that are being denied the opportunities to work and study in the rest of Europe

But it also appears that Brits had no idea what they were voting for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british...

 

abnormal
NorthReport

Something very bad has happened How bad we are about to find out.

NorthReport

The EU President wants the UK gone ASAP Who cares what Cameron or Johnson say about not invoking Article 50 right away The EU are now going to give the UK the boot

EU parliament leader: we want Britain out as soon as possible

President Martin Schulz says speeding up of UK exit being considered after ‘continent taken hostage because of Tory party fight’

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/top-eu-leader-we-want-br...

NorthReport

Nicola Sturgeon has put Scotland on course for a new independence vote by autumn 2018 to prevent the country following the rest of the UK out of the EU, as the shockwaves from the  Brexit vote threatened to bring an end to the United Kingdom. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scotland-leaving-eu...

NorthReport

Quebecers should thank their lucky stars they will not be going through what the UK is now facing.

Quote:
In the EU referendum, London was overwhelmingly in favour of the UK staying with its union-mates, the Remain vote in some parts reaching over 70 per cent.

This split between capital and country has led some to suggest London go it alone and be made eligible to apply for EU membership as a city.

“London is an international city, and we want to remain at the heart of Europe,” a change.org petition states.

“Let's face it - the rest of the country disagrees… so let's make the divorce official and move in with our friends on the continent.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/londependence-petition-calls-for-lo...

abnormal

Quote:
A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another.

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors.

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry?

More on this here

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12023544/brexit-uk-young-voters

NorthReport

A bit of good news perhaps as Canada and the EU's CETA agreement now may be dead in the water

NDPP

The British Vote Isn't Against Europe - It's Against the Wars of Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, and Every Serious Newspaper in the World as We Used to Know It.  -  by John Helmer

http://russia-insider.com/en/british-vote-isnt-against-europe/ri15189

"I told you so..."

 

Goodbye To All That: Why the UK Left the EU  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/24/why-the-uk-said-bye-bye-to-the-eu/

"As for 'Western political civilization', what will end - and this is a big thing - is the special transatlantic relationship between the US and EU with Britain as an American Trojan Horse.

It will be a long and winding road. 'Nobody has a clue what 'Out' looks like."

 

josh

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The only sanction would be the next election, when the government's failure to honour the result would be a central plank of the UKIP platform. Who knows how that would turn out?

Could be that voters would say "the other parties didn't listen when we spoke!" or they might say "Oh, thank God the government was smarter than I am!  If only they could have also been there to stop me from getting that drunken tattoo!!".

I have to say, though, that in a national context it's not even entirely clear to me what a non-binding referendum is supposed to mean.  Is it the same as those opinion polls like "Who's the greatest guitarist of all time?"?  If UKIP really wants to they can always remind voters that the government left themselves the option of declaring them too stupid and ignoring them if they wanted to.


Why do I get the feeling that if the vote had gone the other way some of the same people would be hailing it as a democratic reaffirment of a great neo-liberal cause. And that any talk of a new vote would be nothing more than sour grapes.

josh
josh
6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

The British Vote Isn't Against Europe - It's Against the Wars of Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, and Every Serious Newspaper in the World as We Used to Know It.  -  by John Helmer

http://russia-insider.com/en/british-vote-isnt-against-europe/ri15189

"I told you so..."

What a dolt. If he tried slinging that crap in Manchester he would get showered with beer and politely reminded that it was about the Poles and the Syrians.

As for Escobar, most of the opinions I heard on the radio yesterday were that this could strengthen ties between Britain and North America. Where else do they have to go? And surely you don't think the businesspeople who support this are against capital and goods crossing borders, and international agreements to free them of responsibility. It is having to deal with people (at least the ones who aren't buying their stuff), those nasty restrictions and rights rulings they don't like.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/11/boris-johnson-on-brexit-...

So Brexit means Trumpism is gone? Never mind what he is saying, just look at the man's hairdo.

And josh, well we knew who was going to be complaining if it went the other way, because the pro-Brexit camp were already blaming M-I5. I think everyone knew this was going to be a squeaker. And what you are seeing is plenty who voted yes who now wish they could take it back.

http://theintellectualist.co/petition-to-hold-second-brexit-vote-receivi...

And they can if they want. The government would have to fall on its sword and call an election, but there is no reason why the next government couldn't call another referendum if they want to step back from the brink.

But of course they had better hurry up and do it before the Scots hold theirs.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/jeremy-corbyn-vows-to-fa...

Jeremy Corbyn faces hecklers at London Pride Parade

And on the Tory side, a #StopBorisJohnson movement is brewing. Teresa May is mentioned as a possible replacement for David Cameron.

And on the SNP side, Nicola Sturgeon says a new Scottish independence referendum is 'on the table'.

 

josh

May would be better than Johnson. But the worst choice would be Gove. Even Johnson is not as bad.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist

So the "leave" folks voted for funding the NHS?

If so, then Cameron, instead of resigning, should say: "I hear you! We'll be funding NHS and social programs once we're out!"

Ooooo, can't do that.

I guess that's why he had to resign.

Because the "leaders" of both "camps" belong to the same imperial men's clubs.

Tommy Douglas had some cat parable, no?

 

6079_Smith_W

Only one side used it as an implied campaign promise, U. And promptly turned around and denied it.

Besides, they have border posts and a whole new customs and security regime to build. New passports to print. New foreign nationals to deport.

iyraste1313

The Real Brexit "Catastrophe": World's 400 Richest People Lose $127 Billion

The world’s 400 richest people lost $127.4 billion Friday as global equity markets reeled from the news that British voters elected to leave the European Union. The billionaires lost 3.2 percent of their total net worth, bringing the combined sum to $3.9 trillion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index...

...political machinations are just a distraction.....Brexit means loss of confidence in Europe, loss of confidence in the banks....

the downward spiral thanks to Brexit has just nosedived...

 

NorthReport

Bingo!

Thanks Smith

6079_Smith_W

The world's richest people are buying and waiting for this blip to correct. Geez, even I had friends who were buying British stock and hoping to make money off this. One of the callers on the phone in yesterday was hawking the "buy gold" line. The smart ones are the ones who don't get spooked and sell.

Quote:

Still, Britain's big banks took a $100 billion battering, with Lloyds (LLOY.L), Barclays (BARC.L) and RBS (RBS.L) plunging as much as 30 percent, although they cut those losses nearly in half later in the day.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-idUSKCN0Z92MZ

So someone who was thinking could have bought when it bottomed out and made a 15 percent profit. And obviously someone did. Not bad for a day's work.

Who is going to get smacked is the pension funds, and others who aren't so quick off the mark. But again, this is a blip.

 

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Only one side used it as an implied campaign promise, U.

I understand that, Smith, believe me I do. But when "leave" won, explain to me why Cameron said, "ok, I hear you, we're out of the EU", but not: "ok, I hear you, we should use the money we save to fund social services"?

Quote:
And promptly turned around and denied it.

Yes, but my point which you're clearly not following is that Cameron denied it too. Do I need to repeat my scenario again? "Leave won, now let's spend the money on Britons - here's the plan!"?? Why doesn't he do that? Because he didn't promise it?

There were two choices in this so-called referendum, and both of them were wrong. It's not even clear which one was more wrong.

The only good prospects on the horizon so far: Another Scottish referendum, and maybe an Irish referendum.

It's long past time for the "United Kingdom" to be dethroned and dismantled. 

And I'm not talking about what English people should or should not do. I'm saying that the people of Scotland and Ireland, as nations historically oppressed by the English, should be allowed to have their say with no outside interference whatsoever.

 

iyraste1313

Yes of course it´s just a blip...everything is fine out in lala land...we can soon go back to sleep while we vote for the slightly to the right of the rightist whichever globalization party you choose...

welcome to the world of the blipper gatekeepers, ever ready and willing to nix any potential movement for real political alternatives...whew!

6079_Smith_W

Because Farage was lying, Unionist.

Regardless of Cameron's motives (and again, this was all about party division for him) the 350 million isn't there just waiting to be reallocated, and it really isn't going to be there once the costs of this start rolling in.

And it really really isn't going to be there if one of the members of the Union decides to leave.

Aristotleded24

6079_Smith_W wrote:
As for Escobar, most of the opinions I heard on the radio yesterday were that this could strengthen ties between Britain and North America. Where else do they have to go? And surely you don't think the businesspeople who support this are against capital and goods crossing borders, and international agreements to free them of responsibility. It is having to deal with people (at least the ones who aren't buying their stuff), those nasty restrictions and rights rulings they don't like.

Which "radio?" The MSM all around the world was in the tank for "Remain," but the MSM hasn't done a good job of telling people what's going on. There are so many issues they're not covering properly, issues like poverty and climate change, and they were caught flat-footed when the economy crashed in 2007-2008. As for Escobar, when he was on The Real News, I found him to be effective in seeing through Obama's BS right at the start. Or I guess we should all accept that Brad Wall is a great guy and a wonderful Premier because the Saskatchewan media says he is.

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And josh, well we knew who was going to be complaining if it went the other way, because the pro-Brexit camp were already blaming M-I5. I think everyone knew this was going to be a squeaker. And what you are seeing is plenty who voted yes who now wish they could take it back.

Would this be the first time people voted one way in a referendum or election and then wished they could change their votes after the fact? Do you not think this was the case in the Quebec referendum in 1995 which everybody knew would be close?

Face it Smith, the British people had a choice to stay in or leave the EU. They chose to leave. It's time to accept that verdict and move forward.

6079_Smith_W

Again, where do you think the UK is going to go? Boris Johnson was waving the option of free trade deals as an alternative to the EU. And Obama wasn't letting the workers and refugees in.

 

And I accept whatever they come up with.

They are the ones who are considering their possible ways out of this. Both in Scotland, Ireland, and in England and Wales.

NorthReport

Be careful, be very careful what you wish for.

Welcome to the world of Farage, Johnson, Le Pen, Trump, etc.

Brexit and Europe’s Angry Old Men & Women

And now this. Just as Europeans of my generation were being relieved of those anxious old men, another type stepped onstage: the angry old men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/opinion/brexit-and-europes-angry-old-m...

NDPP

Rubbishing Brexit: Post Referendum Malevolence in Action  -  by Binoy Kampmark

http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/06/rubbishing-brexit-post-referendum-male...

"With or without Britain, Europe is fracturing..."

 

Keiser Report - EP 932

https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/348318-episode-max-keiser-932/

 

Going Underground - Afshin Rattansi

https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/348358-uk-leaves-eu-economy/

"Afshin Rattansi goes underground on Brexit.."

 

"All over the West, working people have been betrayed by the parties of the Left. This is the anger that fuels the rise of Trump. UKIP. - Ken Livingstone

 

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