Dark times in Italy

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lagatta4
Dark times in Italy

I guess it is the logical consequence of the historic mainstream left enacting anti-worker legislation when they finally attained a majority, but it remains extremely depressing. 5Stelle is all over the map, but has some rather worrying xenophobic policies. To say nothing of the filth in the other party. Including a fascist skinhead with a Nazi rune tatoo who drove around Macerata shooting Black people (fortunately all have survived; good thing the P.O.S. was a poor shot). http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43030951

Most of my friends who voted at all supported Potere al popolo, a party similar to Podemos in the Spanish state: https://jacobinmag.com/2018/02/potere-al-popolo-italy-elections-march-4 some voted PD as a "lesser evil" or still smaller parties.

 

iyraste1313

It` s a confirmation of the total bankruptcy of so called socialist parties, based on their support for non democratic bureaucratic federations based on the principles of fascist capitalism (the alliance oif capitalist cartels with central bankers)....they have given socialism in any form a reputation they may never recover from!

josh

The Democrats suffered the same fate as the SPD in Germany, the SP in France and Spain, and PASOK in Greece.  You'd figure these parties would learn at some point.

It's not all bad.  The right didn't get enough seats to form government.  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

lagatta4

Here are some Potere al popolo activists occupying an abandoned church in a poor neighbourhood in Naples:

https://poterealpopolo.org/repubblica-a-napoli-nella-chiesa-occupata-di-... They are cleaning it up, serving hot meals (it has been unusually cold even in southern Italy) and providing some beds for people without a fixed abode. The older man is a Catholic, but of the kind that takes Pope Francis's message about taking action to help the poor seriously. There is what was a beautiful green cloister in the middle, which has become little more than a rubbish heap, in a part of town with little greenery.

5 Star is strange, and a sort of free electron that could go anywhere. As you know well, not all anti-EU forces are progressive.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

5 Star is being described as "centrist populist". It is also said that they have moderated their positions so as to appear they will be good administrators. Maybe they will try to be like Macron, or worse...

NDPP

This Is Not A Coup (doco)

https://youtu.be/GbiC8IyEINE

Just another day in the EU. "The ECB has effectively become the government of the United States of Europe. It has been designed to ensure that the only kind of government that Europe has is a government that operates in the interest of the financial system."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

progressive17 wrote:

5 Star is being described as "centrist populist". It is also said that they have moderated their positions so as to appear they will be good administrators. Maybe they will try to be like Macron, or worse...

5 Star was founded by a comedian.  When they moderate their policies, does that just mean they're promising not to be as funny?

Cody87

josh wrote:
  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

voice of the damned

Cody87 wrote:

josh wrote:
  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

There seem to be two camps of thought on that. Roughly, I'd say that mainstream social democrats support the EU, whereas populists, "anti-globalists", and, for lack of a better word, conspiracy theorists(eg. Paul Craig Roberts), think it's all just an evil plot to advance some sort of sinister agenda.

I believe Corbyn has a history of being anti-EU, but was convinced to change his views, however reluctantly, some time before the Brexit vote.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

Only in the case of Brexit, and that's just because the Conservatives quickly called "Dibs on leaving!!"

josh

Cody87 wrote:

josh wrote:
  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

Not this progressive.  The EU is a neoliberal creation designed to put national governments in a “golden straight jacket.”

josh

voice of the damned wrote:

Cody87 wrote:

josh wrote:
  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

There seem to be two camps of thought on that. Roughly, I'd say that mainstream social democrats support the EU, whereas populists, "anti-globalists", and, for lack of a better word, conspiracy theorists(eg. Paul Craig Roberts), think it's all just an evil plot to advance some sort of sinister agenda.

I believe Corbyn has a history of being anti-EU, but was convinced to change his views, however reluctantly, some time before the Brexit vote.

I think Corbyn is still anti-EU, like his mentor, Tony Benn, was.  He modulated his position in order to navigate the Brexit shoals.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

josh wrote:

Cody87 wrote:

josh wrote:
  And 5 Star has some progressive policies.  Moreover, it represents a rejection of the EU.

Wait, I thought the progressive position was supporting the EU?

Not this progressive.  The EU is a neoliberal creation designed to put national governments in a “golden straight jacket.”

The dilemma is that, while that is the case, the EU also significantly increased protection of human rights in Europe and embraced the multicultural fact.  And a lot of the anti-EU sentiment in the UK(not all, but a lot of it) was fueled by anti-immigrant bigotry and by wealthy people who wanted to get out of having to obey the soon-t0-be implemented EU-wide ban on tax evasion.

And while there is a Left anti-EU position, it's not clear that THAT anti-EU position, rather than opposition to the institution based in hatred of immigrants and multiculturalism combined with an obsession with returning to an whites-only European/UK "golden age" that never really existed, can carry the day.

It's a damned complicated issue.  There are progressive and reactionary aspects to the both sides of the argument.

josh

All part of the neo liberal golden straight jacket.  They don’t mind liberal social policies as long as they have the commanding heights on economic policy.

NDPP

"Italy Joins Long Line Of Elections Influenced By Russia" - Samantha Power

https://twitter.com/Splenetico/status/970761617037180928

 

voice of the damned

The Russian government has no power to force Italian voters to do anything, and contra Ms. Power, I even question how much persuasive influence they have. Even if they're able to tilt the scales in favour of right-wing parties a tad, there still had to be a significant number of voters leaning that way to begin with.

Now that said, it's a little much to read Putin's apologists with their "Huh? Us? Support the populist-right in Europe? How can you say such a thing?" Here is a link that appeared on a Sputiniknews article about the Italian elections...

READ MORE: Drive-by Shooting in Italy Injures Four People, Reportedly Black Immigrants

You can read the rest on your own(it's pretty much in the same spirit as that hotlink, slightly toned down). Suffice to say, the people who wrote that article would obviously want any Italian reading it to vote for one of the anti-immigration parties.

The full election article...

https://tinyurl.com/yca8qmct

 

lagatta4

Just switch that one round:

Yet another Mob killing, reportedly White native Italians...

NDPP

LA Times, PRI

Europe's Migrant Crisis Threatens To Overwhelm Italy...

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-italy-migrants-20170704-htmlst...

"Europe's unrelenting migrant crisis is threatening to overwhelm Italy..."

 

Italy's Migrant Crisis Saw A Huge Turning Point in 2017

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-12-30/italys-migrant-crisis-saw-huge-tu...

"The year 2017 noted what Italian authorities hope was a turning point in the nation's struggle to manage a chaotic and deadly rush of migrants to its shores...Still, tens of thousands of asylum-seekers languish in large shelters, feeding into the mutual distrust of surrounding neighborhoods..."

josh

Membership of the euro has clearly been a factor in explaining the rise of populism in Italy, because it has made it impossible for governments in Rome to restore competitiveness by devaluing the currency – something they did on a regular basis in the days before monetary union. The disciplines of euro membership have resulted in slower growth, stagnant wages, high unemployment and austerity – perfect conditions for Beppe Grillo’s Five Star Movement to exploit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/05/italy-election-perfect-economic-storm-ripe-for-a-protest-vote

voice of the damned

I think I have to retract part of my above post. The "black migrants" refer to the victims, not the perpetrators. My apologies.

It remains the case that the Sputnik articles I've seen pretty much dog-whistle immigration issues. From the main election article...

Berlusconi, for whom the elections might signify a tremendous political comeback, has drawn public attention to the problem of the huge migration influx into the country, calling it a “social bomb ready to explode in Italy.”

***********

Surging crime and the emergence of "no-go zones" — admitted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel just last month — are perhaps the most troubling matters for voters, and potentially the driving force of Europe's changing political landscape. 

 

 

NDPP

Historic Defeat For Social Democrats in Italian Election

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/06/ital-m06.html

"The Italian election outcome is the result of the deep-going dissatisfaction among the population with all previous governments. The dominant feelings are anger and disappointment with parties that call themselves left but carry out the bidding of the banks and major corporations..."

 

Italy's Election: Political Destabilization Continue To Upend Europe (and podcast)

https://sputniknews.com/radio_loud_and_clear/201803061062259280-italy-el...

"Yesterday's Italian elections are set to produce a deadlocked parliament, as the populist Five Stars Movement and the far right Northern League surge, leaving the Center-Left bloc of Prime Minister Matteo Renzi in an embarrassing third place. Brian Becker and John Kiriakou are joined by Nick Nichols, the correspondant for Spain and Catalonia for Green Left Weekly and Sputnik news analyst Walter Smokarek."

Ex-Obama UN Envoy Blames Russia For Anti-Establishment Success in Italy's Elections

https://on.rt.com/90j1

"One of the key people behind the policies that destabilized Libya and Syria, causing a flood of refugees to Europe, accused Russia of influencing the Italian elections after voters gave the cold shoulder to establishment parties. Russia's utility as the universal scapegoat cannot be underestimated these days..."

 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

When someone votes for a "fuck you" party, it is not because of the Russians. It is because of "fuck you". 

Cody87

progressive17 wrote:

When someone votes for a "fuck you" party, it is not because of the Russians. It is because of "fuck you". 

Well said.

Pondering

Cody87 wrote:

progressive17 wrote:

When someone votes for a "fuck you" party, it is not because of the Russians. It is because of "fuck you". 

Well said.

Imagine if they put as much effort into investigating tax havens as they do investigating Russians on social media.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
When someone votes for a "fuck you" party, it is not because of the Russians. It is because of "fuck you".

And to some degree, also because of "fuck me too... it's worth it!"

lagatta4

The problem with such parties is that it is "du n'importe quoi" in French - just anything and everything. Resentment against plutocrats and dirty pols, but also against migrants fleeing war, persecution and hunger. When Italy's birthrate has tanked even more than Québec's when we turned away from the Church.

iyraste1313

Historic Defeat For Social Democrats in Italian Election.....

not just the social democrats, as evidenced by the success of the Northern League...a vote against the bureaucratic undemocratic failure of the EU and its corporate sponsors...

a lesson for progressives? To build a socialist party based on human small scale community based popular democracy?

voice of the damned

The Northern League's decentralization and anti-immigration agenda is basically the same thing that our very own Reform Party was pushing in the late 80s and 90s. They had a bit of success with that, nearly made opposition in '93 and went all the way to Stornoway in '97(and possibly wound up as the government in 2006, depending how you regard Harper), but I don't think that would be any reason for the left to emulate their brand of politics.

josh

iyraste1313 wrote:

Historic Defeat For Social Democrats in Italian Election.....

not just the social democrats, as evidenced by the success of the Northern League...a vote against the bureaucratic undemocratic failure of the EU and its corporate sponsors...

a lesson for progressives? To build a socialist party based on human small scale community based popular democracy?

Actually a bigger defeat for Forza.

Sean in Ottawa

The size of a defeat and the effectiveness or damage of the defeat are two different things. This is one more case illustrating that. I agree Forza has lost the most even if the numbers might suggest other possibilities.