(NATO) Imperialists Hands Off Libya! II

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N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture
(NATO) Imperialists Hands Off Libya! II
N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

1.Real News Network - Liberated Libya rejects US "intervention".

2. See also John Riddell "How to help Libya's freedom movement" over at rabble News

The article quotes Derrick O'Keefe who noted that the Canadian Peace Alliance "wanted to make clear that we would strongly warn against ... any kind of NATO military intervention." Sending in NATO "would be like calling the arsonist to put out the fire."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

More fighting; Qaddafi forces lose (again)

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/8942525/gaddafi-stages-east-libya-offensive-rebels-defiant/

Quote:

 Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi attacked the oil export terminal of Brega in the first sign of a counter-offensive by Libya's leader in the rebel-controlled east, which rebels said they had repulsed.

Sanousi Jadran, a rebel volunteer fighter, said Gaddafi's forces backed by foreign mercenaries had hit the town early in the morning.

"They bombarded us with heavy weapons including air strikes," he told Reuters. "You see the Israeli attacks on Palestinians? This was worse."

 

Looks like the Gaddafi air force is back in action (for now).

 

A_J

 

 

Reuters - No-fly zone for Libya would require attack: Gates

Quote:
"Let's just call a spade a spade. A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defenses ... and then you can fly planes around the country and not worry about our guys being shot down," Defense Secretary Robert Gates told a congressional hearing

 

New York Times - Libyan Rebels Said to Debate Seeking U.N. Airstrikes

Quote:
BENGHAZI, Libya — In a sign of mounting frustration among rebel leaders over Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s diminished but unyielding grip on power, rebel leaders here are debating whether to ask for Western airstrikes under the United Nations banner, according to four people with knowledge of the deliberations.

By invoking the United Nations, a council of opposition leaders made up of lawyers, academics, judges and other prominent figures is seeking to draw a distinction between such airstrikes and foreign intervention, which the rebels said they emphatically opposed.

“He destroyed the army; we have two or three planes,” said a spokesman for the council, Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga. He refused to say if there would be any imminent announcement about such strikes, but he wanted to make it clear: “If it is with the United Nations, it is not a foreign intervention.”

. . .

“If he falls with no intervention, I’d be happy,” one rebel leader said. “But if he’s going to commit a massacre, my priority is to save my people.”

There was no indication that the United Nations Security Council’s members would approve such a request, or that most Libyans who are seeking to topple Colonel Qaddafi would welcome it. Among the Security Council’s members, Russia has dismissed talk of a no-fly zone to curb strikes by the Libyan Air Force still under Colonel Qaddafi’s control, and China usually votes against foreign intervention.

The discussions appeared to signal a rebel movement that is impatient with a military stalemate that has crippled the country. The airstrikes’ supporters hoped they might dislodge Colonel Qaddafi from crucial strongholds, including a fortified compound in the capital, Tripoli.

The council is considering strikes against only the compound and assets like radar stations, according to the people briefed on the discussions, who requested anonymity because no formal decision had been made.

The United States acknowledged the sensitivity concerning outside intervention.

 

al-Qa'bong

NDPP

'US Imperialist Project Underway in ME'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/167853.html

"US plans imperialist strategies for the Middle East and is setting the stage for repeat dictatorhips, says political commentator Ralph Schoenman.

From a distant and forgotten past:

MI6 'Halted Bid To Arrest Bin Laden'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/nov/10/uk.davidshayler

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Last nights fighting update...

A Gadhafi T-72 tank...

 

Gaddafi forces take back several towns around Tripoli, more fighting in several key cities as rebel forces repulse more attacks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110301/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

Quote:

Gadhafi's regime has retaken at least two towns and threatened a third, while rebels repulsed attacks on three other key areas - Misrata to the east, Zawiya to the west, and the mountain town of Zintan to the south of the capital.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Anyway, back to the thread topic, which is about imperialist intervention - planned or actual - in Libya.

 

Pepe Escobar wrote:
In their Sheen-style hysteria — with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton desperately offering "any kind of assistance" — Western politicians did not bother to consult with the people who are risking their lives to overthrow Gaddafi. At a press conference in Benghazi, the spokesman for the brand new Libyan National Transitional Council, human-rights lawyer Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, was blunt, "We are against any foreign intervention or military intervention in our internal affairs ... This revolution will be completed by our people."

The people in question, by the way, are protecting Libya's oil industry, and even loading supertankers destined to Europe and China. The people in question do not have much to do with opportunists such as former Gaddafi-appointed justice minister Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, who wants a provisional government to prepare for elections in three months. Moreover, the people in question, as al-Jazeera has reported, have been saying they don't want foreign intervention for a week now.

[url=http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC03Ak03.html]Source[/url]

Unionist

Just posted this in another thread, but this latest article by Fidel Castro bears reading and repeating:

[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/castro03032011.html]To the shores of Tripoli? NATO's inevitable war[/url]

Quote:

Which one of the many imperialist wars would this look like?

The one in Spain in 1936? Mussolini’s against Ethiopia in 1935? George W. Bush’s against Iraq in the year 2003 or any other of the dozens of wars promoted by the United States against the peoples of the Americas, from the invasion of Mexico in 1846 to the invasion of the Falkland Islands in 1982?

Without excluding, of course, the mercenary invasion of the Bay of Pigs, the dirty war and the blockade of our Homeland throughout 50 years, that will have another anniversary next April 16th.

In all those wars, like that of Vietnam which cost millions of lives, the most cynical justifications and measures prevailed.

For anyone harbouring any doubts, about the inevitable military intervention that shall occur in Libya, the AP news agency, which I consider to be well-informed, headlined a cable printed today which stated: “The NATO countries are drawing up a contingency plan taking as its model the flight exclusion zones established over the Balkans in the 1990s, in the event that the international community decides to impose an air embargo over Libya, diplomats said”.

Further on it concludes: “Officials, who were not able to give their names due to the delicate nature of the matter, indicated that the opinions being observed start with the flight exclusion zone that the western military alliance imposed over Bosnia in 1993 that had the mandate of the Security Council, and with the NATO bombing in Kosovo in 1999, THAT DID NOT HAVE IT”.

Someone should explain to the NDP that calling for a "no fly zone" is tantamount to calling for bombing of Libya and trampling on its sovereignty. Hopefully they will retract that shameful interventionist demand.

NDPP

Libya's Bankers Exposed: Goldman, JP Morgan and Citi

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/libyas-bankers-exposed-goldman-jp-morga...

"all the usual suspects are here.."

NDPP

Rebels In East Libya Want UN Backed Air Strikes

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFWEB290220110302

"We call for specific attacks on strongholds of these mercenaries, [but] the presence of foreign forces on Libyan soil is strongly opposed..."

NATO Plans for All Libya 'Eventualities'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168068.html

..."Rasmussen also said that NATO officials 'take note' of a request from the Libyan opposition to launch airstrikes against mercenaries hired by Moammar Gaddafi.."

Is Algeria Qadaffi's Ace In The Hole?

http://www.counterpunch.org/prince03022011.html

'Qadaffi has the support of at least one important regional ally, the Algerian government, which has both militarily and diplomatically thrown its full weight behind his effort to retain power.."

Fidel

[url=Russian">http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/03/russian-military-says-libyan-airstri... Military Says Libyan Airstrikes Did Not Take Place[/url] by grtv

grtv wrote:
"All war is based on Deception" - "in war, the first casualty is truth"; Sun Tzu's Art of War

The reports of Libya mobilizing its air force against its own people spread quickly around the world. However, Russia's military chiefs say they have been monitoring from space - and the pictures tell a different story...

Libyan army taking defensive action against certain factions of "the rebels" who themselves have demanded no foreign military intervention. Other reports say that similar to the situation in Iraq leading up to 2003, there are US, British and French special forces on the ground in Libya and advising "the rebels" who are working to create situations of civil war and chaos. Those of the rebels who are part of the foreign influenced "rebels" will not win against Gadaffi's army and therefore will require NATO intervention at some point if they are to seize power and control of the country's oil wealth. There are legitimate rebels in Libya, apparently. But some speculation is that there are foreign-trained "al-Qaeda" there as well. And like Iraq, "al-Qaeda" presence will provide the casus belli for another US-led military occupation of another oil-rich country.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

M. Spector wrote:

Anyway, back to the thread topic, which is about imperialist intervention - planned or actual - in Libya.

Ha, yeah I notice you changed the title of the thread after you connected it as a continuation to the "Libya" thread 2 threads back. I guess this is your attempt at controlling the subject of the thread. Kind' a funny really and pretty lame, (but nice hijack technique though).

 

NDPP

 

Taking The Cake: The Creeping Militarization Of The Libyan Crisis

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2098-...

"Yes, does this not, as they say, take the cake...and the plate and the forks and the napkins too? The United States, pushing through a measure to refer Libyan leaders to an international court which the United States resolutely refuses to recognize - - lest its own leaders and their underlings find themselves in the dock for the most monstrous war crimes of this century?

Yet even today, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate was sternly wagging his finger at Gaddafi and his underlings, telling them that they will be hald accountable for their actions before the august institutions of international justice, which weigh the whole world in the balance...except for the Peace prize winning drone assassin and Continuer in Chief of a world wide campaign of state terror, that is.

The 'responsibility to protect' invoked by those demanding intervention [Romeo Dallaire etc] is applied so selectively that the word hypocrisy doesn't do it justice. And the idea that states which are themselves responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands in illegal wars, occupations and interventions in the last decade, along with mass imprisonment without trial, torture and kidnapping, should be authorized by international institutions to prevent killings in other countries is simply preposterous..."

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
Paris, Mar. 3 (Prensa Latina) France reiterated on Thursday its opposition to military intervention in Libya, saying that kind of action could be counterproductive.

During a meeting in Paris with British Foreign Secretary William Hague, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said a military intervention could be misunderstood by other Arab and North African nations.

On Wednesday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he does not consider that idea appropriate, but noted that if the situation remains the same, they cannot show a lack of interest in innocent victims.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
[Defense Secretary Robert] Gates on Wednesday made clear the U.S. military would have to launch pre-emptive strikes to destroy Libya's air defenses if President Barack Obama ordered the imposition of a no-fly zone.

"Let's just call a spade a spade," Mr. Gates said. "A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya."

[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000142405274870355960457617579243940334... Street Journal[/url]

NDPP

Friday 'Day of Rage' Protests Set to Jolt Arab World

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168075.html

"People in North Africa and Middle Eastern countries are set to join massice 'Day of Rage' protest rallies planned Friday against their unpopular regimes. Demonstrations are to take place in Tunisia and Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, Bahrain and Tripoli...'

NDPP

Petroleum and Empire in North Africa  - by Keith Harmon Snow

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23481

"Are events unfolding in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt more about petro-terrorism or about freedom and democracy? How much oil is there in North Africa? Who is in control of the oil? What is the relationship between the West and Muamar Ghadafi?

Almost everything in the western press on the crises in Libya is slanted by some faction or interest, or it is tainted by Western arrogance, or by anti-imperialist ideology (or 'solidarity'), even in the case of the alternative media, there is very little accurate reports of any kind.

This report is just another incomplete picture of an incomplete puzzle -- but it seeks to penetrate through and expose the ongoing western media campaign for what it is - a psychological operation against the masses of earth's people who have not and don't benefit from the rash polices and actions implemented to serve a very small and elite group of people.

People who wish to support the legitimate grievances and actions for freedom and truth in Libya should challenge the Western terrorist apparatus out of Washington DC, Tel Aviv, Brussels, London and Ottawa.  Prayers for the true innocent civilians in Libya and across the region."

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Keith Harmon Snow wrote:

People who wish to support the legitimate grievances and actions for freedom and truth in Libya should challenge the Western terrorist apparatus out of Washington DC, Tel Aviv, Brussels, London and Ottawa.

Unfortunately, right-wing social democrats have nothing useful to say when foreign populations revolt against imperialist rule. They are completely at a loss to comprehend any situation that doesn't revolve around counting ballots or votes in parliament.

Instead, they prefer to use the opportunity to mock the left and call for "humanitarian" intervention by the imperialists.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

The refugee problem increases...

UN: Gadhafi forces sowing fear along Libyan border

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110304/ap_on_re_eu/libya_refugees

 

Quote:

The torrent of refugees fleeing Libya has suddenly slowed, as heavily armed forces loyal to strongman Moammar Gadhafi rushed to sow violence and fear at the country's borders, U.N. refugee officials said Friday

More 200,000 people have fled to Libya's borders with Tunisia, Egypt and Niger since Feb. 15, when the uprising against Gadhafi's iron-fisted rule began. But now refugees are reporting robberies, intimidation and violence from loyalist forces.

Rebel commander killed in fighting; protesters tear gassed and fired on in Tripoli...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110304/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

Quote:

More than 1,500 protesters marched out of the Murad Agha mosque after noon prayers in the eastern Tripoli district of Tajoura, chanting "the people want to bring the regime down" and waved the red, black and green flag of Libya's pre-Gadhafi monarchy, adopted as the banner up the uprising.

But pro-Gadhafi forces quickly moved in. They fired volleys of tear gas and - when the marchers continued - opened fire with live ammunition, according to witnesses.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:

But pro-Gadhafi forces quickly moved in. They fired volleys of tear gas and - when the marchers continued - opened fire with live ammunition, according to witnesses.

 

Is it time yet, Mr. Castro?

al-Qa'bong

NATO should invade Palestine.  It's been decades; what's the delay?

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Snert wrote:

Quote:

But pro-Gadhafi forces quickly moved in. They fired volleys of tear gas and - when the marchers continued - opened fire with live ammunition, according to witnesses.

Is it time yet, Mr. Castro?

Do you really believe the US Marines are white knights in shining armour with a dedication to all that is good and true and a desire to help the less able?  Imagine the thrill those boys will have singing the Marine Corp Hymn as they hit the shores of Tripoli.  It will be truly inspiring for a generation of noble men.

Military intervention by NATO will cause a greater loss of life than letting the Libyans themselves remove this asshole from power.  They are not asking for our help but somehow NATO leaders think they should have the right to say they know what is better for the Libyan people than the Libyan people.  Doesn't sound very democratic to me. 

al-Qa'bong

C'mon boys, if we don't fight them here, we'll have to fight them in Tucson.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

al-Qa'bong wrote:

C'mon boys, if we don't fight them here, we'll have to fight them in Tucson.

Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...Wink

I speculate all this speculation is going to turn out to be nothing but speculation; including my speculation...

  

I can't find any real information on how effective those air strikes are; aside from reading they are happening. If the MSM is so hell bent on justifying NATO involvement to stop the slaughter you would think they'd be posting all kinds of pictures of blown up civilian and stuff. I've seen firsthand how deviating airstrikes can be if they are accurate and well planned. But I've see nothing so far that indicates they are rolling back the opposition forces with them or leveling civilian neighborhoods. It would seem neither side right now has the power to deliver a knockout blow to the other side: any rebel force large enough to take Tripoli trying to move through the desert (toward Tripoli) would be fraught with danger from air attacks and Kaddafi can't take back the cities he's lost. Looks like this one is going to grind for awhile (along with this thread).

 

 

NDPP

M. Spector wrote:

Unfortunately, right-wing social democrats have nothing useful to say when foreign populations revolt against imperialist rule. They are completely at a loss to comprehend any situation that doesn't revolve around counting ballots or votes in parliament.

Instead, they prefer to use the opportunity to mock the left and call for "humanitarian" intervention by the imperialists.

NDPP

or reversing even minimally responsible policies regarding the militarist monster

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20040530/ndp_nato_040529/

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...

 

Remember the Alamo? That lithograph is from the battle of Halls of Montezuma in the US-Mexican war, you know, the one where the US stole half of Mexico (including Arizona) from the Mexicans.

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:
Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...

 Remember the Alamo? That lithograph is from the battle of Halls of Montezuma in the US-Mexican war, you know, the one where the US stole half of Mexico (including Arizona) from the Mexicans.

[humor]Just WOW, all I can do is shake my head....LOL

You've got the Texas Revolution of 1835 to 1836 and the Mexican War 1846 to 1848 mixed up into big pile of Canadian goo... The rest is a matter of opinion; you'd find mine VERY biased so we'd be wasting our time even talking about it.[/humor]

NDPP

NATO's Inevitable War 2: The Rush For Libya's Fossil Waters  - by Fidel Castro

http://www.counterpunch.org/castro03042011.html

"the revolution in the Arab world, so feared by the US and NATO, is the revolution of those who lack all their rights in the face of those who wield all the privileges, thus called the most profound revolution since the one which burst on Europe in 1789 with the storming of the Bastille"

DaveW

M. Spector wrote:
Keith Harmon Snow wrote:

Unfortunately, right-wing social democrats have nothing useful to say when foreign populations revolt against imperialist rule. They are completely at a loss to comprehend any situation that doesn't revolve around counting ballots or votes in parliament.

Instead, they prefer to use the opportunity to mock the left and call for "humanitarian" intervention by the imperialists.

 

 

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

 

NDPP

'Gaddafi's al-Qaeda Excuse Is A Joke'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/167983.html

"Libyan leader ruler Muammar Gaddafi has warned of a 'bloodbath' and a 'very long war' in the country if the west decides to take direct mlitary action against his regime.."

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

DaveW wrote:

Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Indeed they do want a new constitution.  It is nice of you to presume they want it to be a western style one.  I prefer to wait to see what the people themselves will decide if they ever get to have a voice. I unfortunately think the new military dictatorship will ensure whatever facade that is created will always result in pro-west parties winning. You know like democracy in Lebanon and Palestine where the locals are told they can vote for any party except those who do not like Israel or the US.  

I read about Chavez's dumb and anti-democratic comments on Gaddafi and Libya but failed to see the news on how he was propping Gaddafi up. Care to post those links for us?  Is he sending arms during the dispute?  Making plans to send troops? What exactly is he doing except running off at the mouth and damaging his international credibility.

NDPP

US-NATO Threats to Libyan Sovereignty  - by Antonio E Paris

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23515

"It would also be an illusion to expect that the stooges of imperialism among the protesters - the NFSL, the monarchists, the Muslim Brotherhood, and other pliant groups would support real democratic change in Libya. No to imperialist intervention in Libya!"

PKP 1930 The Phillipines

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

DaveW wrote:

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Thanks for proving my point.

There's revolutions going on halfway around the world and all you can do is make disparaging remarks about "revolutionary utopia" and "revolutionary rhetoric". Democratic revolutions will continue in the Arab world and elsewhere, despite your platitudes drawn straight from the Hillary Clinton briefing book.

 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Chavez and others are quite right to draw attention to the plans and likely actions of the NATO countries. That part of his remarks don't discredit him at all.

al-Qa'bong

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:
Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...

 Remember the Alamo? That lithograph is from the battle of Halls of Montezuma in the US-Mexican war, you know, the one where the US stole half of Mexico (including Arizona) from the Mexicans.

[humor]Just WOW, all I can do is shake my head....LOL

You've got the Texas Revolution of 1835 to 1836 and the Mexican War 1846 to 1848 mixed up into big pile of Canadian goo... The rest is a matter of opinion; you'd find mine VERY biased so we'd be wasting our time even talking about it.[/humor]

Bah, they were the same war, just different campaigns, much as the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1981, "Operation Desert Storm®,"the attack on Iraq in 2003 and "Operation Cast Lead®," in 2009 have been campaigns in the same war.

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

DaveW wrote:

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Thanks for proving my point.

There's revolutions going on halfway around the world and all you can do is make disparaging remarks about "revolutionary utopia" and "revolutionary rhetoric". Democratic revolutions will continue in the Arab world and elsewhere, despite your platitudes drawn straight from the Hillary Clinton briefing book.

And don't forget the [url=http://www.ndp.ca/press/conservatives-cut-canadas-role-in-world][=o...' botched evacuation efforts in Libya,[/color][/url] - and Tory cuts to:

 

  • the the International Policy Advice and Integration program

  • diplomatic policy capacity, Consular Services, the Peace Implementation Council,

  • the International Atomic Energy Agency and funding to the International Criminal Court (ICC), and

  • even  Canada’s contributions to the United Nations and Peacekeeping operations are on the chopping block.

...with The Liberal Party of Bananada Inc. backing them up all the way since 2006.  Our colonial administrative stoogeaucracy in phony minority government and phony opposition in Ottawa will continue deferring all foreign policy matters to Warshington. DAY-O! Banana anyone?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

journalist Peter Beaumont, from Libya, wrote:

Foreign policy - including the increasing threat of military intervention - is being driven by what the media is reporting from Libya, and that is being driven largely by reports from the opposition, some of which are true, some of them dubious. The Libyan government says that. But for once, in the midst of all the regime's evasions, lies and fantastical notions, it may just have a point.

We are being drawn into a crisis where credible information about so much of what is happening is not simply at a premium, it is often impossible to mine from among all the exaggerations and misinformation. If proof of this were necessary, it was provided by the foreign secretary, William Hague, when he announced he had information that suggested Gaddafi had flown to Venezuela.

The reality is that we are rushing to make policy on Libya without knowing precisely what is happening here. That is not to say we do not know some of the broad details. Yes, people are being killed for demonstrating against the regime. People, too, are being taken from their homes amid a widespread policy of intimidation. Human rights abuses are unquestionably being committed. But it is a question of scale. And there is a requirement for a response that fits the reality of what is happening and does not exacerbate the country's problems, or the region's.

We should admit our ignorance and own it as we try to determine what is happening in Libya. When we have determined the reality of what we are dealing with then perhaps, and only then, can we talk seriously about appropriate measures to respond to it.

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/03/libya-prism-propagan... Guardian[/url]

Sounds as if Fidel Castro was right to counsel against jumping to conclusions.

NDPP

The Real News: Supporting Libyan Revolution - Opposing Foreign Intervention: Prof. Hamid Dabashi: Intervention In Libya is imperialism, Chavez peace talks, etc (and vid)

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I...

 

DaveW

M. Spector wrote:

DaveW wrote:

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Thanks for proving my point.

There's revolutions going on halfway around the world and all you can do is make disparaging remarks about "revolutionary utopia" and "revolutionary rhetoric". Democratic revolutions will continue in the Arab world and elsewhere, despite your platitudes drawn straight from the Hillary Clinton briefing book.

 

I am strongly in favour of their democratic aims and tactics; you can call them "platitudes", but yes, multiparty elections and political transparency are what Tahrir square wanted.

And in Libya, yes, Khadaffi out, NOW. You can hum and haw along with Chavez, calling for negotiations that imply moral equivalence and evoking some non-existent Western plot directing the rebels, but no doubt negotiations between the 42-year dictator and freedom fighters are a non-starter. Tomorrow inchala  they're in Tripoli, bravo...

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

You obviously missed the fact that the platitudes I was referring to are the ones I mentioned in my post — the dismissive nonsense about "revolutionary utopia", etc.

Your positions and your rhetoric are indistinguishable from Clinton's.

NDPP

'Kenya, Niger, Mali Troops Support Ghaddafi'

http://www.afrol.com/articles/37494

"The National Libyan Council, the interim government in 'liberated Libya' is claiming that Kenya, Niger, Mali have sent regular troops to assist the Ghaddafi regime. Council Spokesperson Hafiz Ghoga at a press conference in Benghazi, the main city in 'liberated Libya' made tough accusations against several African states and urged the UN to bomb the 'African mercenaries of Ghaddafi'. The National Libyan Council spokesman further claimed that there was strong evidence that 'the government of Algeria' was supplying the alleged African offensive aginst the people of Libya.

There had earlier been rumours of 'mercenaries' being brought into Libya over the Algerian border in the southwest. The statement by the National Libyan Council, urging the killing of 'African mercenaries' and claiming African governments involvment, are the most extreme anti-African statements made so far in the 'liberated' area of the country. Earlier Afrol News had documented how a wave of racism throughout 'liberated Libya' has caused a witch hunt of sub-Saharan Africans, with arbitrary arrests of African-looking persons and occasional lynch-mobs killing Africans.

'There are outrageous and malicious reports.' The Chadian Ministry of Foreign Affairs is protesting aginst these serious charges, whose consequences 'could be dire for thousands of Chadians living in the territory of Libya, Foreign Minister Mahamat said..."

Fidel

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23518]NATO’s Inevitable War: The Flood of Lies regarding Libya[/url] by Fidel Castro Ruz

Quote:
In contrast with what is happening in Egypt and Tunisia, Libya occupies the first spot on the Human Development Index for Africa and it has the highest life expectancy on the continent. Education and health receive special attention from the State. The cultural level of its population is without a doubt the highest. Its problems are of a different sort. The population wasn’t lacking food and essential social services. The country needed an abundant foreign labour force to carry out ambitious plans for production and social development.

For that reason, it provided jobs for hundreds of thousands of workers from Egypt, Tunisia, China and other countries. It had enormous incomes and reserves in convertible currencies deposited in the banks of the wealthy countries from which they acquired consumer goods and even sophisticated weapons that were supplied exactly by the same countries that today want to invade it in the name of human rights. ...

It's a very good essay on the situation in Libya.

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23518]NATO’s Inevitable War: The Flood of Lies regarding Libya[/url] by Fidel Castro Ruz

[...]

It's a very good essay on the situation in Libya.

... which is why I posted it on March 3 at #8 above. And NDPP posted the sequel on March 4 at #29 above. But it's all worth a second read.

 

Fidel

I had this feeling I was committing an error. Oh well good vibes back at ya.

NDPP

so's this...

8 British Troops Captured in Libya

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168409.html

Eight British soldiers have been captured in eastern Libya as they escorted a senior diplomat through territory under the control of revolutionary forces. According to a report published by The Sunday Times, the unexpected presence of a British special forces unit along with the diplomat 'angered Libyan opposition figures, who ordered the soldiers to be locked up...'"

Fidel

That's different. Looks good on them.

DaveW

 

ouch, my centre-left position on Libya like Hillary's? .. horrors:

http://tinyurl.com/62fakbk

 for once, she has called things right

  On another note, once liberated, my guess is that a free Libya could "pull a Czechoslovakia":

in the old Russian empire, the Czechs were the most predictable and ideologically reliable at riding shotgun for Brezhnev and the Soviets, speaking out for them, selling guns discreetly when needed etc.;

now, following Vaclav Havel, the independent Czechs have made it their national mission to speak bluntly to the Castro Bros. hegemony, which they do in every human rights and diplomatic forum, esp at the European Union; they've been there, done that, know what it's like to have an immovable hierarchy.

 today in Libya, after 42 years of hearing the same anti-Western anti-imperialist pan-Arab diatribes of the Great Libyan Arab Socialist Jamahiriya -- morning, noon and night -- young people there are likely innoculated to that stuff; the Facebook warriors in Egypt and Tunisia  certainly seem to be.

a free Libya could  be diplomatically unpredictable; let's hope there's  a Mandela in there somewhere; Libya, the Sweden of the Arab League? --Stranger things have happened in modern history.

Interesting times; go freedom fighters, Inchalla you take Sirte this week ....

Unionist

DaveW wrote:

 today in Libya, after 42 years of hearing the same anti-Western anti-imperialist pan-Arab diatribes of the Great Libyan Arab Socialist Jamahiriya -- morning, noon and night -- young people there are likely innoculated to that stuff; the Facebook warriors in Egypt and Tunisia  certainly seem to be.

You were inoculated too, I see.

 

 

NDPP

Mali Tribesmen Join Pro-Gaddafi Forces

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/mali-tribesmen-join-pro-gaddafi-forces

"Tribesmen from the Tuareg community of Africa's northwestern country of Mali have joined the forces supporting embattled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, a media report said. A large number of men from the ethnic group left Mali last week to join pro-Gaddafi forces in Libya, an unnamed official told BBC in Mali. 'They are being paid about $10,000 to join up and then I've heard they are being told they will get $1000 a day to fight,' the official said."

Libyan Warplanes Bomb Oil Rich Towns

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168493.html

"Libyan warplanes have targeted the oil-rich city of Res Lanuf as forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi launched counter-strikes in an attempt to take back strategic towns.."

West's Fear - Gaddafi Wants Civil War

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168501.html

"I think Obama and the West are going to straddle this situation. Obama is the champion of the status quo. I think what you're looking at is a 'stalemate'. It's becoming more and more like a stalemate right now...and a protracted civil war, and he has the cards all in his favor. And we're not about to step in there and force him out. That's not going to happen.."

contrarianna

Quote:

British FM: Libyan Rebels Release Captured SAS Troops
British Troops Sent to 'Offer Help' After Repeated Warnings Against Foreign Meddling
by Jason Ditz, March 05, 2011


Update 3/6 12:57 PM: Foreign Secretary William Hague is reporting that the SAS troops as well as the diplomat “have now left Libya.” He insisted that the British government would send more diplomatic teams to East Libya “in due course.”

Sometimes no really means no....

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