(NATO) Imperialists Hands Off Libya! II

137 posts / 0 new
Last post
NDPP

exactly, here's more on this:

SAS Backed Libyan Diplomatic Mission Ends in Humiliation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/06/sas-diplomatic-mission-in-libya

"Whitehall sources said on Friday it needed intelligence to learn more about the leadership of the anti-Gaddafi forces and find out what logistical support they needed...David Cameron, speaking at the Tory's Spring conference in Cardiff repeated his call for 'Gaddafi to go'. 'On Libya our strategy is clear,' he said. 'We will continue to intensify pressure on the regime. We will continue to state clearly that international justice has a long reach and a long memory, and those who commit crimes against humanity will not go unpunished..."

unless they're British PMs..

NDPP

Natynczyk: Libyan No-Fly Zone 'Military Offensive' (and vid)

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110306/walt-natynczyk-canadian-fo...

"Gen. Walter Natynczyk says establishing a no-fly zone in the skies over Libya would be a major military offensive, as a top US senator urged allies to start planning such an operation. Despite the mixed signals coming out of the United States, British Defence Minister Liam Fox said talks of a no-fly zone are 'at the very early stage of contingency planning.' Fox told BBC Radio that NATO defence ministers will be discussing all options at a meeting in Brussels later this week."

Unionist

NDPP wrote:
David Cameron wrote:
...those who commit crimes against humanity will not go unpunished..."

unless they're British PMs..

Laughing

 

Fidel

How embarrassing for England. Whether Blair, Cameron, or Queeny Windsor, they're all frauds and pretenders to the throne.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Libyan warplanes strike rebels at oil port

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110307/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

Quote:

There were no casualties in Monday's airstrike on Ras Lanouf, which came one day after pro-regime forces pounded opposition fighters with helicopter gunships, artillery and rockets to stop the rebels' rapid advance toward Tripoli.

Mohamad Samir, an army colonel fighting with the rebels, said his forces are expecting reinforcements from the east.

Video of this weekend's fighting...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/24433631#video=24437517

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/24433631#video=24433631

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Unionist wrote:

You were inoculated too, I see.

Dave thinks the Libyan revolt is against anti-imperialism and in favour of western hegemony. He thinks it's like Iraq under Hussein, when Pentagon planners had dreams of millions of liberated Iraqis strewing flower petals at the feet of the advancing coalition armies. That's why he's such a fan of the Hillary Clinton/Barack Obama approach to Libya. 

But Dave's looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Qaddafi made his peace with imperialism about seven years ago and signed on as a War on Terra™ franchisee (in fact, just about the same time as the neoliberal Czech Republic that Dave admires so much). Libya has ever since acted to block African migration to Europe, has flung the doors open to British and Italian oil investments, and has adopted the structural "reforms" mandated by the IMF and World Bank. Today there is no real difference between the regimes of Qaddafi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt (yes, it's still the same regime), or Ben Ali in Tunisia, whose overthrow was deplored by Qaddafi.

Qaddafi characterizes the Libyan rebels not as agents of western imperialism, but as al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists — the standard reaction of western-backed dictators when challenged by their subjects.

ETA:

Quote:

The anti-imperialist and socialist rhetoric masked Gadhafi's autocratic rule and appropriation of a large part of oil profits to accumulate a fortune for himself and his family.

Especially after the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, Gadhafi cultivated friendlier relations with Washington. He agreed to end a nuclear weapons program, handing over more than 4,000 centrifuges and other bomb-making technology, and began collaborating with U.S. spy agencies against alleged Islamist militants. U.S. and British oil companies returned to Libya.

- [url=http://www.themilitant.com/2011/7510/751003.html]The Militant[/url]

NDPP

Libyan Rebels Welcome News of Fresh Arms and Troops

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/libyan-rebels-w...

..."A more senior rebel commander, Colonel Mohammed Samir, 50, said the troops were also happy to hear about the appointment of a new defense minister, Omar Hariri. 'He spent a lot of years in jail, he was tortured, he hates Gadhafi and we trust him,' he said. In the days before he took charge of the rebel's military operations, Mr Hariri told the Globe and Mail that the rebels could defeat Col Gadhafi within 10 days if foreign air power restrained the regime's aircraft. 'There's only one way to avoid bloodshed: cruise missiles,' Mr. Hariri said...

A man wearing traditional Libyan robes stood up during the press conference and criticized the council's position: 'If Gadhafi is sending foreign mercenaries to kill us, why are you against foreign intervention to save us?"

US and Allies Step up Military and Intelligence Operations in Libya

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/liby-m07

"British efforts are part of a multi-faceted operation to construct a new Libyan regime that can suppress popular opposition and ensure that the major oil companies, banks and corporations have access to Libya's resources. Washington is seking to exploit the mass opposition to Gaddafi to install a new client regime that will enable it to position its political and military assets to prop up reactionary regimes across North Africa and the Middle East - including Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain and Oman - that are being rocked by popular uprisings."

America's Secret Plan to Arm Libya's Rebels  - by Robert Fisk

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/americas-secret-plan...

"Desperate to avoid US military intervention in Libya in the event of a prolonged struggle between the Gaddafi regime and its opponents, the Americans have asked Saudi Arabia if it can supply weapons to the rebels in Benghazi. Their assistance woujld allow Washington to disclaim any military involvement in the supply chain - even though the arms would be American and paid for by the Saudis.."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Against Libya's rebels, Gadhafi controls the skies

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110307/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

 

Quote:

The rebels can take on "the rockets and the tanks, but not Gadhafi's air force," said Ali Suleiman, a rebel fighter at Ras Lanouf. "We don't want a foreign military intervention (on the ground), but we do want a no-fly zone. We are all waiting for one."

Still, Western military intervention does not seem imminent - and the warnings may be an attempt to intimidate Gadhafi with words before deeds. British and French officials said the no-fly resolution was being drawn up as a contingency and it has not been decided whether to put it before the U.N. Security Council, where Russia holds veto power and has rejected such a move. Western officials have said a no-fly zone does not require a U.N. mandate, but they would prefer to have one.

In the battles over the weekend, Gahdafi's forces unleashed their strongest use of airpower yet in the nearly three-week-old uprising. A powerful assault by warplanes, helicopter gunships and heavy barrages of artillery, rockets and tank fire drove the opposition forces out of the town of Bin Jawwad, 375 miles (600 kilometers) east of the capital.

Perhaps shoulder launched SAMs would help...

They have some but they are the older Soviet era SAMs. Most probably misfire or are duds.

NDPP

Obama Says Military Option Still Under Consideration

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Obama-Says-Military-Option-Still-und...

"President Barack Obama says a wide range of potential options in Libya are under consideration, including a military response to the fighting there. He said the Libyan leader, Col Moammar Gadhafi, and his loyalists will be held accountable for continuing violence. 'In the meantime, we've got NATO, as we speak, consulting in Brussels around a wide range of options in response to the violence that continues to take place inside of Libya,' the president said.

In a briefing with reporters at the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said the main military options under consideration are establishing a no-fly zone, enforcing a UN arms embargo and probably humanitarian aid options.."

NDPP

Canada Could Contact Libyan Rebels: Cannon

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/03/07/pol-pressure-libya.html

"Foreign Affaris Minister Lawrence Cannon said he would consider direct diplomatic contact with opposition forces in Libya. Canadian opposition politicians pushed the government Monday to make contact with the Libyan National Council which has been the political voice of the rebel-held areas in the North African country. Cannon told reporters after speaking to the House of Commons foreign affairs committee that there would be a 'great deal of validity' in speaking with the rebels.

Liberal Foreign Affairs critic Bob Rae said earlier Monday...'We need to establish diplomatic contact with the Libyan National Council, have direct contact with them and know what they are doing..."

...and maybe see if they still want SNC Lavalin to finish building that prison for Libyans?

Fidel

NDPP wrote:

'Gaddafi's al-Qaeda Excuse Is A Joke'

That's right, only the west is allowed to trot-out the al-CIA'da bogeyman when they need a culprit.  Strategia della tensione Inc created Elvis bin Laden and the invisible army of darkness. They know it's bullshit. Gadaffi and the Gladio Gang all know Qaeda doesn't exist.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

NDPP wrote:

Liberal Foreign Affairs critic Bob Rae said earlier Monday...'We need to establish diplomatic contact with the Libyan National Council, have direct contact with them and know what they are doing..."

You forgot to quote the part where the NDP's Paul Dewar agrees with Bob Rae. The NDP's position on Libya is indistinguishable from that of the Liberals and Tories. 

NDPP

Obviously the long choke-chains from above all pull the same way here...Perhaps this is the reason why suddenly this little choir in Ottawa is singing so sweetly in harmony:

'Gaddafi Agrees to Conditional Surrender'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168687.html

"Embattled Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi has reportedly expressed his readiness to hand over power to the revolutionary National Council on his own terms. Gaddafi has dispatched his special envoy to hold talks with the interim National Council based in Benghazi, Saudi-owned daily Asharq al-Aswat reported citing sources..."

Gaddafi: Crackdown Modeled After Israel

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168680.html

"Embattled Libyan Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi has compared his brutal crackdown on protesters with Israel's 2009 war on Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. 'Even the Israelis in Gaza, when they moved into the Gaza Strip, they moved in with tanks to fight such extremists. It's the same thing here,' France 24 quoted Gaddafi as saying...'We have small armed groups who are fighting us. We did not use force from the outset...armed units of the Libyan army have had to fight small armed Al Qaeda bands. That is what's happened,' Gaddafi said."

how to win friends and influence people..NOT

al-Qa'bong

M. Spector wrote:
Qaddafi characterizes the Libyan rebels not as agents of western imperialism, but as al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists — the standard reaction of western-backed dictators when challenged by their subjects.

Like what the US puppet regime is saying in Iraq right now?

Quote:
The Iraqi government, worried the demonstrations may spiral out of control, have taken strict measures that appear designed to limit the number of demonstrators who come out.

Late Thursday, they imposed a vehicle ban in the capital so many of the protesters were forced to walk for miles. Similar vehicle bans were in place in the northern cities of Mosul and Kirkuk, and the southern city of Basra.

Side streets leading up to the square were blocked with security vehicles and helicopters buzzed overhead in Baghdad.

Before those protests, Iraqi officials tried to discredit the demonstrations by saying they were being backed by supporters of Saddam and al-Qaeda. The warnings seemed designed to keep people away and paint those who did take part in a bad light.

 

Anti-government protests erupt across Iraq

...although Western media don't appear to have noticed.

 

BBC -

Middle East protests: Country by country

Polunatic2

I was shocked to find an email in my mailbox from Avaaz.org, calling for a "no fly zone", i.e. a shock and awe campaign against Libya. How else can NATO accomplish their goal without blowing up everything in sight in the name of "humane intervention". I wrote to Avaaz to express my disgust with their position. As for the NDP, you would have thought they might have learned something after Yugoslavia which is now a toxic soup of poisonous chemicals and depleted uranium. 

Establishing a no-fly zone over Libya will set the worst kind of precedent. Got a bunch of people protesting in Venezuela? Bolivia? Cuba? Send in the air force, destroy the country's infrastructure, kill a few thousand innocent people in whose name you're doing the bombing, install a new puppet regime and voila - instant democracy - US-style. 

Polunatic2

It is likely that whatever conditions are put forward, they will be rejected by the US who will up the ante in order to justify bombing the country. Is a foreign occupation of Libya inevitable? If so, did it come out of the blue or has it been on the Pengaton/CIA to do list for a while? 

NDPP

I suspect that the announcement of possible negotiations on a Gadhafi exit-stragegy will hurry that no fly zone/ bomb Libya agenda along, lest the Libyans get control of their country back before the West can intervene. I have no doubt also that the hungry West has its own ducks set up on the Libyan Opposition Council as well. It's not looking good for the Libyan revolution at this point:

Rebels Set Demands For Gaddafi Exit

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201138133847222111.html

"The head of the national opposition council says there were indirect talks with people from Tripoli, who were given the green light from the regime, she said. 'But the spokesman for the opposition council denied any of that. He says no one can bargain for the blood spilt during the 42 years of Gaddafi's leadership or the money that is owed to the Libyan people. "There is a very chaotic picture coming out here and it could backfire in the face of the opposition council.' She also said there was no optimism there following news of the ultimatum from the rebels.

'People are worried it will move towards civil war which will continue months on end. There is a realisation that there is no institution in this country, that you have to avoid chaos..There is no more euphoria of a revolution, she added."

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/03/major-media-promote-war-on-libya/]Major Media Promote War on Libya[/url]

Stephen Lendman wrote:

In a BBC interview, Gaddafi called Western actions "betrayal," adding: "They have no morals." Indeed not and never did, despite Big Oil profiting handsomely in Libya, and Gaddafi offering his security forces for America's "war on terror."

Nonetheless, he's targeted for removal, State Department spokesman PJ Crowley saying US officials have "been reaching out...to a range of figures within the opposition." Hillary Clinton added: "We are going to be ready and prepared to offer any kind of assistance that anyone wishes to have from the US." Nothing is ruled out, including weapons, intervention and war.

Nothing is said about client regimes engaged in similar or worse practices, including killing, arresting, torturing, and otherwise abusing thousands of its citizens. Decades of Israeli atrocities are ignored. So are those of Iraq and Afghanistan puppet governments, proxy force belligerence in Somalia and elsewhere, and numerous global client states doing the same things.

Only outlier leaders are vilified, in Gaddafi's case an embraced one now betrayed for broader aims. Washington seeks greater regional dominance. Doing it requires compliant leaders, willing to let America and European nations colonize their countries, plunder their resources, exploit their people, and provide locations for new Pentagon bases. For six and half million Libyans, that awaits them as Washington moves in for the kill.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

comprador: native agent for a foreign business. See also "traitors".

NDPP

'US Wants to Seize Arab Revolts via Libya'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168808.html

"The US plan to have military presence in Libya is a ploy to exert its control over the mounting anti-government uprisings across the Arab world, a political analyst says. 'The uprising against Muammar Gaddafi is being deployed as a pretext by US imperialism to intervene, seize control of that uprising and to put its forces on the ground to dictate the outcome of the Arab uprisings in Egypt...and across the region,' Ralph Schoenman, the author of Hidden History of Zionism told Press TV.

The political analyst mentioned Libya's wealth as another reason for the presence of the United States in the North African country: In a country with 6.5 million people and huge oil wealth, the US rulers are not in any ambiguity or doubt as to what their intent is,' Schoenman opined."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Gadhafi is safe for now; fighting turns in his favor.

Gadhafi forces hammer rebels on eastern front. Air power and heavy artillery takes it's toll on rebels.

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110308/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

 

Quote:

After dramatic successes over the past weeks, Libya's rebel movement appears to have hit a wall of overwhelming power from loyalists of Moammar Gadhafi. Pro-regime forces halted its drive on Tripoli with a heavy barrage of rockets in the east and threatened Tuesday to recapture the closest rebel-held city to the capital in the west.

Looks like the rebel steamroller has run out of steam... for now.

Quote:

The rebels seem to have reached a point of their campaign where they need to figure out how to organize resupply lines and avoid becoming easy targets for warplanes in their march across the open desert region with little cover. The extent of their westward reach is a checkpoint about six miles (10 kilometers) west of Ras Lanouf.

NDPP

Point Of No Return: US and NATO Prepare for War with Libya  -  by Rick Rozoff

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23594

"The amassing of military assets - warships, warplanes, assault troops and special forces - near and in Libya, mean more than brinksmanship, demonstrates more than a show of strength, more than simply 'sending a message'. So does the enforcement of a no-fly zone over the country, which is not a substitute for but a prelude to war.

A no fly zone is followed by war as day is followed by night."

A_J

M. Spector wrote:

Sounds as if Fidel Castro was right to counsel against jumping to conclusions.

Yet it sounds like a lot of people are still jumping to conclusions, declaring that Libya is about to become the 51st American state or something.

The latest news from reality suggests that no one is really too keen on intervening - and it certainly won't be coming soon:

Montreal Gazette - Gadhaffi Defiant as West Mulls Action

Quote:

As pressure grew from inside Libya and elsewhere in the Arab world for a no-fly zone, the White House said U.S. President Barack Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron had agreed to press forward with planning a range of possible responses.

These included surveillance, humanitarian assistance, enforcement of the arms embargo and a no-fly zone, the White House said.

Cameron said the world could not stand aside while Gadhafi did "terrible things" to the Libyan people. "We have got to prepare for what we might have to do if he goes on brutalizing his own people," he added.

A senior UN official in New York said the Security Council had discussed the no-fly zone being pushed for by Britain and France especially to keep Gadhafi's air force grounded.

Washington has been markedly less enthusiastic about a no-fly zone. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Tuesday, "We think it is important that the United Nations make that decision."

A_J

M. Spector wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Liberal Foreign Affairs critic Bob Rae said earlier Monday...'We need to establish diplomatic contact with the Libyan National Council, have direct contact with them and know what they are doing..."

You forgot to quote the part where the NDP's Paul Dewar agrees with Bob Rae. The NDP's position on Libya is indistinguishable from that of the Liberals and Tories. 

Layton too, more than two weeks ago:

CBC - Ottawa to fly Canadians out of Libya

Quote:

NDP Leader Jack Layton urged the Canadian government to "unequivocally" express its support for democracy in Libya.

"Authorities have been engaged in atrocities against the country's civilian population. New Democrats condemn the Libyan regime’s use of deadly force — including military aircraft — against civilians," Layton said in a statement Tuesday.

"Canada should also be working with its international partners to bring the issue to the UN Security Council and work to establish a no-fly zone in Libya's airspace," he added.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/opinion/09wed1.html]Handwringing over imperialist intervention from the New York Times[/url]

Quote:
President Obama was talking tough again on Monday, warning that the West is considering all options, including military intervention. Just a day before, his chief of staff, William Daley, complained that "lots of people throw around phrases like no-fly zone; they talk about it as though it's just a video game." A few days earlier, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said a no-fly zone could require a huge, prolonged operation, an argument challenged by some military planners.

We are not eager to see the United States involved in another conflict in the Muslim world. Sending in American troops would be a disaster. But some way must be found to support Libya's uprising and stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi from slaughtering his people. On Tuesday, his forces appeared to be gaining momentum as they again turned warplanes against the opposition.

Even with overwhelming air superiority, preventing Libyan warplanes from flying would entail some risk for American and NATO pilots. And what happens if Colonel Qaddafi holds on? Will the United States and its allies continue to patrol the skies?

When the United States, Britain and France imposed an air cap over Iraq after the 1991 gulf war, they grounded airplanes and helicopters and stopped the massacres of Kurds in the north and Shiites in the south. It went on for 12 years.

The United States must not act on its own.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

If we can't intervene legally, we'll do it illegally.

Quote:
The Obama administration, NATO and other international organizations are united in their belief that any military intervention in Libya would require some international backing. But with a U.N. mandate far from assured, those considering some form of intervention - including the United States, Britain, France and Italy - are looking for alternative support, officials said.

Officials, saying international support could come from regional blocs, noted that NATO's air attacks on Serbia in 1999 came without U.N. backing.

"If you have [support from] the Arab League, the African Union, NATO and potentially the European Union, you have every country within 5,000 miles of Libya," a NATO official said. "That gives you a certain level of legitimacy."

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/08/AR201103...

ov ov's picture

Polunatic2 wrote:

I was shocked to find an email in my mailbox from Avaaz.org, calling for a "no fly zone", i.e. a shock and awe campaign against Libya. How else can NATO accomplish their goal without blowing up everything in sight in the name of "humane intervention". I wrote to Avaaz to express my disgust with their position.

That was my response as well when I read their email request yesterday. Told them this was all helping the West to occupy and steal Libyan oil, and that if they didn't know this they were either incompetent or corrupt but either way I didn't want to have anything more to do with them. I doubt if they care what I think, they have millions that will click on any cause they are handed by Avaaz.

NDPP

Libya Fighting Surges in Major Towns

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/169064.html

"Latest reports say armed opposition forces are engaged in heavy fighting with government forces in the city of Ben Jawad, Ras Lanuf and Zawiyah. Meanwhile, the oil rich city of Gaddafi's warplanes. A huge flame - leaping hundreds of meters into the sky has been reported in the city's oil facility.

In a separate development, Gaddafi claims Western countries intend to seize control of the oil reserves in the North African country. 'If they take such a decision to impose a no-fly zone, it will be useful for Libya, because the Libyan people will see the truth, that what they want is to take control of Libya and to steal their oil, Col Gaddafi said in an interview with Turkish TRT TV."

if the oil facilities start getting hit, it'll be a no-fly zone for sure

Noah_Scape

There is a case to be made for protecting the Mediteranian and earth's atmosphere.

Gaddafi is as least as nuts as Saddam. It is no stretch to imagine Gaddafi breaking open the pipelines, setting the oil fields on fire and spilling the port stores of oil into the Mediteranian if he feels the world has rebuked him.

It wouldn't be a pretty picture: Thick black smoke from North Africa across Europe, maybe all the way to England [depending on winds], oil slicks from the Suez to Gibraltar.

Besides helping the right side - common people Vs Brutal Dictator [whose only supporters are paid for their allegiance], sending in outside help for the rebels and capturing Gaddafi would reduce the risk of yet another major ecological catastrophe.

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

Gaddafi is as least as nuts as Saddam.

 

What is this with westerners slagging oriental despots as crazy men (remember So-Damn Insane, before his country was logically pulverised by rational invaders?)? Another babbler called Hosni Mubarak a "whackjob" a few weeks ago. Is being a ruthless tyrant not sufficient; we have to accuse these guys of insanity as well? Why them alone, though? Do those who gravitate to leadership positions in Arab countries by necessity have to be nuts?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

It's way easier than making a thoughful and patient analysis and it has the merit of reflecting the wishes of our own regime here in Canada.

NDPP

Race and Arab Nationalism in Libya  - by Glen Ford

http://blackagendareport.com/content/race-and-arab-nationalism-libya

Black African migrant workers trapped in Libya feel themselves under racial siege, hunted by what Black Africans would immediately recognize as lynch mobs. A Turkish oil worker told NPR's West African reporter Ofeibea Quist Arcton:

"We left behind our friends from Chad. We left behind their bodies. We had 70 or 80 people from Chad working for our company. They cut them dead with pruning shears and axes, attacking them, saying you're providing troops for Gadhafi. The Sudanese, the Chadians were massacred. We saw it ourselves.."

NDPP

Gaddafi Envoy on Mission in Europe

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/169111.html

"One of Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi's closest aides is on a mission in Egypt amid surging clashes between government forces and protesters in Libyan cities. There are reports that two of Gaddafi's private jets have left Libya for the Austrian capital city of Vienna and the Greek capital, Athens. The Libyan government has reportedly sent other envoys to Brussels for talks with EU and NATO officials..."

NDPP

Imperial Anxieties: The Crisis for US Policy in North Africa  - by Vijay Prashad

http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad03092011.html

"American policy in the Arab world is based on 3 pillars. The first is the reliance upon the region for oil, which must be allowed to flow freely into the car culture of Europe or the US. The second pillar is that its allies in the Arab world (such as Ben Ali, Muammar Qaddafi, Mubarak and the Saudis) must stand firm with the US in its war on terror...The third of course is that the Arab allies have to tether their own population's more radical ambitions vis-a-vis Israel. The maintenance of these three goals is a fundamental goal of US foreign policy in the Arab world...

In early February, 2001, the IMF said of Libya that it had followed its'ambitious reform agenda' and the Fund encouraged Libya's 'strong macroeconomic performance and the progress on enhancing the role of the private sector.' The pain of thse policies pushed the needle of distress beyond the bearable...

What distinguishes Qaddafi from the emirs is that he is erratic and has a difficult history. An anti-imperialist Colonel in 1969, Qaddafi often returns to the rhetoric of his youth, but rarely the policies. It confuses people around the world. They think of him as the revolutionary Qaddafi, when in fact that is a posture that has long worn thin. Since 9/11 Qaddafi has been a loyal servant in the Global War on Terror...Qaddafi's radical past and erratic present has earned him few friends in Washington, even though he himself has been an unswerving ally of its policies over the past decade.."

A_J

BBC - France recognises Libyan rebels

Quote:

France has become the first country to recognise the Libyan rebel leadership, the National Libyan Council (NLC), as the country's legitimate government.

. . .

On Thursday the office of President Nicolas Sarkozy said France regarded the NLC as Libya's "legitimate representative".

Fidel

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23548]Insurrection and Military Intervention: The US-NATO Attempted Coup d'Etat in Libya?[/url]

Michel Chossudovsky wrote:
This is not a non-violent protest movement as in Egypt and Tunisia. Conditions in Libya are fundamentally different. The armed insurgency in Eastern Libya is directly supported by foreign powers. The insurrection in Benghazi immediately hoisted the red, black and green banner with the crescent and star: the flag of the monarchy of King Idris, which symbolized the rule of the former colonial powers

A_J

Fidel wrote:

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23548]Insurrection and Military Intervention: The US-NATO Attempted Coup d'Etat in Libya?[/url]

Michel Chossudovsky wrote:
This is not a non-violent protest movement as in Egypt and Tunisia.

Correct.  It started as a non-violent protest movement but became an armed rebellion in response to the state's violent repression.

Fidel wrote:
Michel Chossudovsky wrote:
The armed insurgency in Eastern Libya is directly supported by foreign powers.

No evidence of this has been seen.  Some rebels have requested a no-fly zone, which may or may not be forthcoming, while some have forsworn a no-fly zone.  UK troops have been turned away.

Fidel wrote:
Michel Chossudovsky wrote:

The insurrection in Benghazi immediately hoisted the red, black and green banner with the crescent and star: the flag of the monarchy of King Idris, which symbolized the rule of the former colonial powers.

Actually, that would be the flag of the Kingdom of Libya, an independant state:

This would be the flag that symbolises the former colonial powers, and I doubt it has been spotted in rebel territory:

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

The Kingdom of Libya was a client state of colonial powers - mostly British. Your quibble with Chossudovsky is quite wrong.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Gadhafi showers strategic oil port with rockets

Looks like Gadhafi is turning more and more of the heavy stuff on civilian targets.

 

Quote:

Taking back Ras Lanouf would be a major victory for Gadhafi, reestablishing his power over a badly damaged but vital oil facility and pushing his zone of control further along the main coastal highway running from rebel territory to the capital, Tripoli.

A rebel governing council spokesman said Gadhafi's air force, army and navy had bombarded Ras Lanouf, targeting the main hospital, mosques and civilian areas.

"The regime that has lost legitimacy is practicing a scorched earth policy," spokesman Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga said. "We have requested for all steps to be taken to protect the Libyan people. We believe the U.N. can do that."

The rebel hospital in the eastern town of Brega said four were confirmed dead in the fighting, 35 were wounded and 65 were missing.

The international Red Cross said dozens of civilians have been wounded or killed in recent days in grueling battles between Gadhafi's army and the opposition.

"We need help from the international community, but we just hear promises," said Mohammed Ali Al Zuaiee, a 48-year-old rebel fighter. "They are doing nothing."

The main hospital in Ras Lanouf was hit by artillery or an airstrike and the rebels are pulling their staff out and evacuating patients to the towns of Brega and Ajdabiya, said Gebril Hewada, a doctor on the opposition's health committee in the main eastern city of Benghazi.

GADDAFI WILL PREVAIL--US SPY CHIEF

Quote:

Gaddafi is "hunkering down," showing no inclination to cede power, and "we believe Gaddafi is in this for the long haul," U.S. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told a U.S. Senate hearing.

Clapper said he expected Gaddafi's forces, with better equipment and logistics, would prevail over the long term.

He's probably right. Saddly enough the lesson learned from this story is going to be if a dictator can get enough of his security forces to fire on the people he can survive.

 

What political sphere was Gaddafi in again?Undecided

A_J

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Looks like Gadhafi is turning more and more of the heavy stuff on civilian targets.

Pfft, they deserve it.  Didn't you hear, they're using the wrong flag.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

M. Spector wrote:

The Kingdom of Libya was a client state of colonial powers - mostly British. Your quibble with Chossudovsky is quite wrong.

 

You are quit wrong as well... Libya was an Italian client state, not British.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya_as_Italian_colony

 

Are you saying the Rebels are fighting to put Libya back as a colony?

 

 

 

al-Qa'bong

Back in 1984 I worked with a guy who said he was in the Scots Guards in the British Army.  He used to tell us stories of participating in various rebellions or dustups in places such as Libya and Bahrain back in the 60s and 70s.

He didn't like it when I told him he had been a hired gun for British petroleum.

Noah_Scape

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Gaddafi is as least as nuts as Saddam.

 

What is this with westerners slagging oriental despots as crazy men (remember So-Damn Insane, before his country was logically pulverised by rational invaders?)? Another babbler called Hosni Mubarak a "whackjob" a few weeks ago. Is being a ruthless tyrant not sufficient; we have to accuse these guys of insanity as well? Why them alone, though? Do those who gravitate to leadership positions in Arab countries by necessity have to be nuts?

Have you read any of Gaddafi's speaches of late? He thinks he is convincing people that his authority if valid because, in his words, "My enemies are all on drugs, they are drunk". 

 Of course, he is just posturing, right? Maybe not - he seems to believe it. His EGO is getting in the way of rational thought. What more do you need to see he is insane.

 By the way, Mubarak was not "nuts", he was just a brutal dictator. He stepped down, got out. He never made rambling 2 hour speaches to an empty UN session.

 

 

 

NDPP

Revolution Interviews Raymond Lotta: The Events in Libya in Historical Perspective

http://www.revcom.us/a/226/Lotta-Interview-on-Libya.en.html

"The uprising in Libya is an expression of profound discontent in Libyan society. Broad sections of Libyan society, taking inspiration from events in Tunisia and Egypt, have risen against an oppressive regime. And this uprising in Libya is part of the wave of rebellion sweeping through the imperialist-dominated Middle East. But when you compare events in Libya with those of Egypt, there are two major differences. First, in Libya, you have a situation where imperialist intrigue is commingling with genuine and just mass upheaval. This means things are highly complicated...

So this creates both necessity and opportunity for the US and West-European imperialists. They are reaching out to and seeking to bolster oppositional forces in Libya who might be the embryo of an entirely new neocolonial regime...or that would be a more pliant tool of Western interests. And it can't be ruled out that imperialist operatives have, from the very beginning of this uprising, been assisting some of the oppositional forces. So as I said, while there is genuine and just mass upheaval, there are also significant elements of imperialist maneuvering involved."

This sounds about right to me

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

The Kingdom of Libya was a client state of colonial powers - mostly British. Your quibble with Chossudovsky is quite wrong.

You are quit wrong as well... Libya was an Italian client state, not British.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya_as_Italian_colony

The monarchy of King Idris, which is what we were talking about, came after the Italians had relinquished control over Libya, as a result of a little thing I like to call World War II. Read your wikipedia article again:

Quote:
In 1944, Idris returned from exile in Cairo but declined to resume permanent residence in Cyrenaica until the removal in 1947 of some aspects of foreign control. Under the terms of the 1947 peace treaty with the Allies, Italy, which hoped to maintain the colony of Tripolitania, (and France, which wanted the Fezzan), relinquished all claims to Libya. Libya so remained united.

Idris later became king and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_of_Libya]ruled from 1951 to 1969.[/url] He was a client of the British, and a foe of the Italians.

Quote:
During World War II, Idris supported the United Kingdom and brought the Cyrenaican nationalists to fight alongside the Allies against the Axis. With the defeat of the German and Italian forces led by Erwin Rommel, he was finally able to return to his capital, Benghazi, as Emir of Cyrenaica and form an official government.

With British backing, Idris as-Senussi proclaimed an independent Emirate of Cyrenaica in 1949. He was also invited to become Emir of Tripolitania, another of the three traditional regions that now constitute modern Libya (the third being Fezzan). By accepting he began the process of uniting Libya under a single monarchy. A consitution was enacted in 1949 and adopted in October 1951. A National Congress elected Idris as King of Libya, and as Idris I he proclaimed the independence of the United Kingdom of Libya as a sovereign state on 24 December 1951.

Bec.de.Corbin wrote:

Are you saying the Rebels are fighting to put Libya back as a colony?

Um, no... Are you saying the rebels are fighting to restore King Idris to the throne?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Noah_Scape wrote:

Have you read any of Gaddafi's speaches of late? He thinks he is convincing people that his authority if valid because, in his words, "My enemies are all on drugs, they are drunk". 

 Of course, he is just posturing, right? Maybe not - he seems to believe it. His EGO is getting in the way of rational thought. What more do you need to see he is insane.

 By the way, Mubarak was not "nuts", he was just a brutal dictator. He stepped down, got out. He never made rambling 2 hour speaches to an empty UN session.

Have you read any of Obama's speeches of late? or Clinton's? They think they are convincing people that their authority is valid because their enemies are all terrorists.

And when it comes to comparing blood of one's fellow citizens on the hands, Obama/Clinton are in a whole different league than Qadafi.

Are they insane, too? 

A_J

M. Spector wrote:

Bec.de.Corbin wrote:

Are you saying the Rebels are fighting to put Libya back as a colony?

Um, no... Are you saying the rebels are fighting to restore King Idris to the throne?

Exactly, they're not (and even if they were, who cares?).  More likely, the flag of the Kingdom of Libya is simply the only alternative to Ghadaffi's flag that they have and Chossudovsky is foolish to read anything else into.

You may as well claim that Quebec sovereigntists flying the fleur-de-lis are looking to restore the House of Bourbon to power.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

M. Spector wrote:

[Um, no... Are you saying the rebels are fighting to restore King Idris to the throne?

 

No, I'm saying they are fighting to get rid of Gadaffi and they are now getting their asses kicked by his air force. I guess flying the older flag (that he over threw) is their way of saying they want him out.

 

NDPP

Gaddafi's Son Threatens All-Out Attacks

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/169237.html

"Embattled Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi's son has said it is about to launch full-scale military attacks against anti-government forces...Said al-Islam said on Thursday that unrestrained assaults will soon be carried out as there is no room for further negotiations with opposition forces.."

Gaddafi will be allowed to do his bloody work, by the West as it can only improve their own eventual intervention, once opposition forces have been 'softened up' and no longer in a position to dictate terms and conditions of western involvement.

Noah_Scape

The controversy over establishing a No Fly Zone heated up with Canada's Retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie weighing in.

He claims that the position of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is just a smokescreen. Gates said this week that "you go in and wipe out their air force, thats how you do a No Fly Zone".

[as you might have noticed, I also said that about Gates' position in Babble forums earlier this week].

 

Mackenzie, writing a column in the Globa and Mail yesterday, and in a CBC interview on TV today [March 10 2011], says this:

Quote:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/libya-would-never-b...

The United Nations, NATO, the African Union, the European Union and the Arab League are all contemplating a no-fly zone over Libya in a bid to eliminate Moammar Gadhafi's ability to use his air resources against opposition forces. There's much discussion about the wisdom of such a move, the main argument against it being it would be essential to first destroy Libya's airfields, anti-aircraft missile/gun locations, radar and command-and-control centres.

But that argument is merely a stalling tactic for political leaders, because having to take such action before patrolling Libyan airspace would be equivalent to telling a Canadian infantry company in Afghanistan that it wouldn't be ordered to attack a hill until it was confirmed that the Taliban defenders had been killed by artillery fire. Considering the state of Colonel Gadhafi's air force and air-defence system, the imposition of a no-fly zone would be a low-risk undertaking.

 

---

 I say just go ahead and shoot down Gaddafi's jets when they move towards rebel targets. One by one. Do it with drones, whatever. That way, Gaddafi's pilots will lose heart, and possible join the rebels. Classic Art of War stuff.

 

Pages

Topic locked