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nicky

Ken incomprehensibly writes:

“And if you've somehow missed this, Corbyn's "soft Brexit with referendum" position was just accepted by the Labour conference”

yes I did miss it Ken. Perhaps because the Labour Conference does not open till NEXT WEEK.

a little hard to catch something that hasn’t happened yet.

you are positively Trumpian is the scope of your mendacity Ken.

oh, and of course Trump, like you, backs Brexit.

NDPP

Ruling Elite in 'State of Panic' Over Brexit - Galloway

https://youtu.be/gHjYSRgZ_GA

"The UK Supreme Court has opened to hear the case surrounding Brexit as lawyers urge Britain's judges to rule that Prime Minister Boris Johnson's suspension of Parliament was unlawful. Former MP George Galloway talks more on this ongoing drama..."

JKR

Boris Johnson isn’t part of the elite?!?!?!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Ken incomprehensibly writes:

“And if you've somehow missed this, Corbyn's "soft Brexit with referendum" position was just accepted by the Labour conference”

yes I did miss it Ken. Perhaps because the Labour Conference does not open till NEXT WEEK.

a little hard to catch something that hasn’t happened yet.

you are positively Trumpian is the scope of your mendacity Ken.

oh, and of course Trump, like you, backs Brexit.

Ok...it was the NEC, I stand corrected.  Still a likely sign that the conference will reject the right-wing "nothing matters but Remain" position.  

The rank-and-file overall are NOT obsessed with putting the unwinnable fight to overturn Brexit in this parliament, while the Tories stay in power, over ALL OTHER CONCERNS.  The rank and file don't see staying in the EU as of greater importance than restoring the savage Tory cuts in benefits, saving the NHS, restoring the ability of unions to actually win in confrontations with management, or the absolute necessity of putting public utilities and the rails back under public ownership.  The rank-and-file want the next election fought on Labour's strong program of change-the program you don't care about because you are sharply to the right of most people in the Labour Party and you want to reduce Labour to the pathetic "it's enough that we're not actually the Tories" program.

It was worth voting for Remain in the referendum.  But that struggle is over now.  What matters is ending the Tory government.

The EU does nothing to protect the UK from Trump's values...if anything, with its bars on increasing spending, taxing the rich, or nationalizing portions of the economy-things which have to be available for any government to be able to do anything socialist or social democratic, since social democracy can't exist on austerity spending levels-the EU pushes the UK towards a society which is based, and which can be based, on no values other than greed and exclusion.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why are you so obsessed, nicky, with keeping the UK in a body whose effects on the UK are antisocialist, antiworker, and antipoor?  Whose tiny number of allegedly progressive aspects are too trivial to matter?
Corbyn's policy...which will be accepted at the Labour conference next week...is the only policy which can unite the party, the only one which has any chance of creating common ground between those who voted Remain on anti-xenophobia grounds-nobody other than the far right of the party supports its economic and spending constraints, which are unchangeable without the creation of a massive popular revolution against them throughout Europe-and those in the North and Northeast who voted Leave because the policies of the EU, combined with the policies of both Tory and Blairite governments, have left the North and Northeast an economic dead zone.  

For the last three years or so, I've pleaded with you to acknowledge the damage the EU has done to the North and Northeast, and you've refused to either acknowledge it at all or to back either radical EU reform, or defiance of EU economic and spending policies in order to force radical change in those policies, and you've made it clear that you don't give a damn about what the EU has done to the Labour heartlands.

Labour can never win the seats it has to regain in the North and Northeast of England, or hold the ones it holds there now, if it follows your lead and basically tells those people to "take one for the team".

 

NDPP

David Ellis: EU Military Union & The Brexit Paradox (and vid)

https://21stcenturywire.com/2019/09/17/interview-david-ellis-on-eu-milit...

"As Westminster battles itself and Europe over Brexit, another key issue is laying under the surface which will have profound implications on not only UK and European affairs, but on the entire global world order. This week, Saturday Wire radio host Patrick Henningsen talks with David Ellis, Defense Correspondent for the UK Column and founder of Strategic Defense Initiatives to talk about a verboten topic in Westminster: The adoption of European Military Unification, or Defense Union. This issue lies at the core of what he describes as the 'Brexit paradox,' Come what may - Deal or No Deal - the question still remains whether Britain will be able to reverse its current path towards continental military integration, effectively ceding its sovereignty to Brussels. Listen..."

NDPP

'The Soul Of Our Party is Remain'

https://twitter.com/JoshuaYJackson/status/1174248800250204162

"How can we endorse this kind of semantics: 'The soul of our party is Remain!' - That's a political category that didn't exist four years ago! I thought the 'soul' of our party was *socialism and the working class* not membership of a neoliberal trading bloc run by bankers. Silly!"

 

Christine Lagarde President of ECB?

https://twitter.com/JoshuaYJackson/status/1173935012850393088

"Let this serve as a testament to how rotten and bankrupt the European 'Socialists and Democrats' really are supporting an arch right-wing conservative, former IMF head whose policies have killed working class people..."

Mobo2000

On the question of to Brexit or not to Brexit, my personal view has been said more articulately that I could have by contrianna on post 710:

"The prime pro-Brexit illusion being that the people of the UK will have greater independence outside the EU. This presumes there will somehow be a functioning democracy rather than the established simulcrum managed by transnational corporate and security state interests. 

The UK state is already subserviant to the US empire more than any other EU state. Greater US integration and ceding of independence to the US under Brexit, in economy, military obedience and greater killing of social and environmental responsibilty is pretty clear, with some of the US demands already on record. 

There would be different corporate winners and losers with Brexit or no Brexit, the increasing predations of psuedo-democratic neoliberalism will not be thwarted by a leave. "

Perhaps the predations of psuedo democratic neoliberalism will be better resisted by Brexit, or not, but no one knows at this point, any claims made are guesses at best.   What is left for me  is the referendum vote, and I don't see how it can or should be ignored.    Complaints about lies told by the Brexiteers during the referendum campaigns are sour grapes, the Remain campaign was well funded and organized and had every opportunity to make it's case.   I think left and progressive groups advocating to ignore or redo the referendum are courting disaster.   I get that Labour is now talking about do overs, as the speech by Corbyn to the TUC last week demonstrates.   Perhaps it's electorally necessary, others on this thread have a better grasp of that than me, but leaving the Tories the mantle of democratic defenders of the people's will seems unwise to me (and a sort of ideological betrayal of core left principles).

Corbyn's speech last week to the TUC:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/09/18/creating-a-society-of-hope-and-i...

I thought this bit was pretty great, though:

"Labour is on the side of the people in the real battle against the born-to-rule establishment that Johnson represents.

We stand for the interests of the many – the overwhelming majority who do the work and pay their taxes – not the few at the top … who hoard the wealth and dodge their taxes.

It’s Labour’s historic mission to transform people’s lives … and that transformation begins in the workplace.

In our country … workers have been losing out for far too long.

For 40 years … the share of the cake going to workers has been getting smaller and smaller.

In 1976 wages took over 64% of GDP … now it’s only 54%:

It’s no coincidence that the same period has seen a sustained attack on the organisations that represent workers – trade unions.

We have witnessed a deliberate, decades-long transfer of power away from working people.

The consequences are stark for all workers … whether members of a trade union or not.

Pay is lower than it was a decade ago in real terms.

I’m told that the last decade has seen the biggest squeeze on wages since the Napoleonic Wars.

Personally I can’t remember that far back … so I tried to contact Jacob Rees-Mogg this morning to check … but he was fast asleep again … on the government benches."

NDPP

Labour Would 'Carry Out' Further Referendum Result

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1174267791152730113

"If you'll ignore the vote of one referendum, why would anyone believe a second vote will be respected...?"

Standard EU neoliberalist operating procedure. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And again. And again. Until big money, big media, collaborationist politicians, gullibles and cheerleaders finally succeed with their subversion in the interest of EU imperialism. And how about that Unified EU Defense plan eh?

NDPP

Labour's Brexit Slide

https://t.co/GdJbBPGlVZ

"Why did Labour go from a 'People's Brexit' position to a politically incoherent Remain-sympathetic fudge [eg 'soft'-like-shit Brexit] and how can we stop the impending disaster?

"Labour has got itself into an alliance with the Lib Dems, the SNP, the Greens, Plaid Cymru and a rump of rebel Tories. The effect of such alliances is to subordinate the left's needs to those of capital, and that is exactly what is happening here..."

NDPP

"OK folks, hold onto your hats. Just received this text from a Labour MP. They think the Labour Party is about to split...That or Corbyn goes."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1175175337900171268

Sky News political correspondent

nicky

This is too good to be true.

if Labour replaces Corbyn it wins. With him it gets slaughtered.

but Corbyn wd rather cling to the leadership and be slaughtered than see Labour win with another leader.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
This is too good to be true.

if Labour replaces Corbyn it wins. With him it gets slaughtered.

You know politics better than that to make any claim like that with certainty. The new leader has to be introduced. The tone of the leadership race may have been divisive and it may take a while for those divisons to heal. If one faction of the party feels dissatisfied with the outcome, they may not go out in full force for this new leader. This new leader may have skeletons in the closet that are dug up during the campaign. There are so many other variables. Public opinion also rightly predicted that Paul Martin won a supermajority government, breaking through in Quebec and Alberta, that Andre Boisclair became Quebec Premier, and Adriain Dix won the BC election.

contrarianna

NDPP wrote:

"OK folks, hold onto your hats. Just received this text from a Labour MP. They think the Labour Party is about to split...That or Corbyn goes."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1175175337900171268

Sky News political correspondent

A split may be inevitable. 

The entrenched New Labour, Blairite, warmongering, neoliberal wrecking crew will clearly never stop attacking the only progressive leader they have had in decades.

With a retrenched and purified Blairite Labour can then get on with their show of rivalry with their Tory and Lib Dem siblings, differing mostly only in name branding.

"Capitalism is the government, politics is the entertainment"--Frank Zappa

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
This is too good to be true.

if Labour replaces Corbyn it wins. With him it gets slaughtered.

You know politics better than that to make any claim like that with certainty. The new leader has to be introduced. The tone of the leadership race may have been divisive and it may take a while for those divisons to heal. If one faction of the party feels dissatisfied with the outcome, they may not go out in full force for this new leader. This new leader may have skeletons in the closet that are dug up during the campaign. There are so many other variables. Public opinion also rightly predicted that Paul Martin won a supermajority government, breaking through in Quebec and Alberta, that Andre Boisclair became Quebec Premier, and Adriain Dix won the BC election.

That, and there's also the fact that no one who replaced Corbyn, if the successor was approved of by the PLP, the tiny, unrepresentative cabal who have tormented not only Corbyn but his supporters for the last four years, would ever be able to win the trust and support of Corbyn's supporters.  And Labour can't win the next election if those people stay home-there aren't any significant number of voters who are Labour but anti-socialist and anti-Left anymore.  Everyone knows "Labour but not left wing" now means Tory.

JKR

contrarianna wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"OK folks, hold onto your hats. Just received this text from a Labour MP. They think the Labour Party is about to split...That or Corbyn goes."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1175175337900171268

Sky News political correspondent

A split may be inevitable. 

The entrenched New Labour, Blairite, warmongering, neoliberal wrecking crew will clearly never stop attacking the only progressive leader they have had in decades.

With a retrenched and purified Blairite Labour can then get on with their show of rivalry with their Tory and Lib Dem siblings, differing mostly only in name branding.

"Capitalism is the government, politics is the entertainment"--Frank Zappa

I think Labour’s stuck being an unwieldy big-tent party as long as the UK is saddled with FPTP. Maybe it’s time that Labour finally fully support getting rid of FPTP and replacing it with PR? It would be easy to establish PR-STV as it already works well in Ireland.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

contrarianna wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"OK folks, hold onto your hats. Just received this text from a Labour MP. They think the Labour Party is about to split...That or Corbyn goes."

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1175175337900171268

Sky News political correspondent

A split may be inevitable. 

The entrenched New Labour, Blairite, warmongering, neoliberal wrecking crew will clearly never stop attacking the only progressive leader they have had in decades.

With a retrenched and purified Blairite Labour can then get on with their show of rivalry with their Tory and Lib Dem siblings, differing mostly only in name branding.

"Capitalism is the government, politics is the entertainment"--Frank Zappa

I think Labour’s stuck being an unwieldy big-tent party as long as the UK is saddled with FPTP. Maybe it’s time that Labour finally fully support getting rid of FPTP and replacing it with PR? It would be easy to establish PR-STV as it already works well in Ireland.

Good point.  I doubt the Blairites would ever accept that, though, because it would destroy what little there still is of the argument that Labour MUST be led by someone from its right wing, no matter what, because that's supposedly the only way Labour can ever win another election-the fixation with preserving that argument is the only reason that the coordinated hate campaign against Corbyn has been continued-and the only reason it was continued DURING the 2017 election campaign, when Labour under Corbyn was surging in the polls in a way it would never have been had anyone the right wing of the party approved of been in the leadership at the time.  It's clearly the only reason why sitting Labour MPs were actually trying to undermine their party's leader DURING AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, during a time when those MPs knew a leadership change was impossible, that party can't change leaders once the election has been called-they knew there was an excellent chance that Labour, standing on a campaign which included actual socialist components for the first time in decades(the first time since 1987 at least, given that Labour's platform was made antisocialist for Kinnock's second campaign in 1992 and then Blair came in and made ideological jihad against the left the organizing principle of the party), and if that happened, it would have destroyed the entire argument for Blairism and the toxic arrogance of its apologists.

nicky

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/22/failed-watson-plot-exposes-what-really-scares-corbyn-and-his-coterie

On the eve of the Labour conference, a poll was published that gave Jeremy Corbyn a negative personal approval rating of minus 60 points – yes, you read that right, minus 60 points. These are depths of unpopularity never plumbed by any opposition leader in the more than 40 years that pollsters have been recording this figure. Even Michael Foot wasn’t that disliked by the British public in the run-up to Labour’s landslide defeat at the hands of Margaret Thatcher in 1983. To have a candidate for prime minister who is that repellent to the country is a problem for Labour, especially when it is facing a general election. To Mr Corbyn’s allies, the answer is obvious – the deputy’s head must roll......

If Labour is again rejected by the country, it is almost certain that Mr Corbyn, who will then be a two-time election loser, will have to go. Even some of his most fervent admirers will conclude that he cannot carry on as leader. His departure will trigger a titanic struggle for the soul of the party. So another, and I think correct, way of reading the failed anti-Watson plot is as a sign of how much they fear losing control. When you might expect all the focus to be on winning the election, the Corbynite left are desperate to tighten their grip on the party for fear it will be broken by another election defeat.

 

 

NDPP

contrarianna wrote:

 

"Capitalism is the government, politics is the entertainment"--Frank Zappa

NDPP wrote:

What a marvellous quote by Zappa contrariana! Have always loved his music but somehow missed that one. With regard to politicians it is very apt and will now place it right up there with Mao's: 'All over the world, cats make friends with cats and nowhere in the world do cats make friends with mice,' which Tommy Douglas elaborated upon in his famous fable 'Mouseland'. The lessons of both appear to have been forgotten and clearly the cats are still running the show.

contrarianna

The Guardian's article(s) in documented context.    The collusion of the Guardian's propaganda with the anti-Corbyn security state:

How the UK Security Services's neutralised the country’s leading liberal newspaper

By Matt Kennard and Mark Curtis• 11 September 2019 

.....Another major focus of The Guardian’s energies under Viner’s editorship has been to attack the leader of the U.K. Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn.

The context is that Corbyn appears to have recently been a target of the security services. In 2015, soon after he was elected Labour leader, The Sunday Times reported that a serving general warned that “there would be a direct challenge from the army and mass resignations if Corbyn became prime minister.” The source told the newspaper: “The Army just wouldn’t stand for it. The general staff would not allow a prime minister to jeopardise the security of this country and I think people would use whatever means possible, fair or foul, to prevent that.”....

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/09/11/uk-security-services-neutralized-c...

 

NDPP

Israel Lobby Funders Back Breakaway British MPs

https://twitter.com/AsaWinstanley/status/1175328445263278081

"Tom Watson a friend of Israeli war crimes and racism, bankrolled by the Israel lobby..."

[ps: Pardon the drift, but can't help notice the relative ease with which babblers freely admit and discuss the power of the Israel lobby on UK Labour  but are squeamish and reticent when it comes to the influence of that same lobby upon the NDP. Just saying. Drift ends]

NDPP

WATCH: George Galloway, Mother of All Talkshows - Ep 14  (and vid)

https://youtu.be/iS7rxQwbGJ8

Gideon Levy, Robert Carter, Craig Murray, on Netanyahu and Israel elections, Bernie, Biden, Epstein, Corbyn, Labour, Brexit and more!

"It is the majority of Labour MPs who support Mr Blair and Mr Watson  who despite their chequered history are now very much new best friends. Every week Tom Watson goes in to see Tony Blair. Did you know that...?"

NDPP

"Paul Mason segues directly to defending the primary enemy of Corbyn in the Labour Party. Could the link between Remain and anti-socialism be made any clearer?"

https://twitter.com/DrLeeJones/status/1175328473642131456

nicky

What a hypocrite Corbyn is. For his whole career, until it becomes inconvenient, he has touted implementing the will of the Labour Party membership. Now he is relying on a union block vote to stymie that will.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-22/jeremy-corbyn-relies-on-union-block-vote-to-crush-members-who-want-labour-to-back-remain-writes-robert-peston/

NorthReport
NorthReport

Thomas Cook collapse

A sign of the times for the UK with Brexit

How many thousands will lose their jobs? 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/toronto.citynews.ca/2019/09/22/travel-firm-thomas-cook-ceases-operation-stranding-600000-vacationers/amp/

NDPP

The collapse of Thomas Cooke has nothing to do with Brexit actually. But if you really wish to go down that road start with the cataclysm of businesses, labour and lives that ensued after EU entry.

WATCH: "I spoke to Sky News from the Labour conference this morning. 'Telling millions of working-class voters that they got it wrong last time and must go through it all again will drive them  into the hands of the Brexit party."

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1176098572216995841

NorthReport

Live in your fake news world all you want: Thomas Cook blames Brexit!

NDPP

"The EU's state aid directive forbids a government bailing out a company. That's the EU in which Labour wishes to remain."

https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1176053589078347777

 

WATCH: "A delegate gets to the rostrum at Labour conference, describes the vote to leave the European Union as a 'far-right project' and gets rapturous applause. Words fail me."

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1176144920551284739

 

"I'm on the Brexit diet. I fast on days when Labour back Brexit, and eat normally on days when they oppose it."

https://twitter.com/witherjay/status/1176170556321861632

NorthReport

The sooner Brexit dies a quick death the better

Brexit is a right-wing scam on the UK people.

Irish border controls needed in no-deal Brexit: European Union chief

https://globalnews.ca/news/5935482/irish-border-controls-brexit/

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

What a hypocrite Corbyn is. For his whole career, until it becomes inconvenient, he has touted implementing the will of the Labour Party membership. Now he is relying on a union block vote to stymie that will.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-22/jeremy-corbyn-relies-on-union-block-vote-to-crush-members-who-want-labour-to-back-remain-writes-robert-peston/

Corbyn's policy includes a second referendum.  Why isn't that enough? Why can you settle for nothing less than forcing the party to take what can only be a right-wing position?  Labour committing to Remain means Labour abandoning socialism.  The last three decades prove that socialist policies cannot be implemented within the EU, and nothing to the right of socialism is worth doing.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture
nicky

Virtually all economists say that Brexit will have its cruelest impact on the poor and working class.

How is that “socialism” Ken?

NDPP

"Bad News From EUtopia..."

https://twitter.com/Thephilippics/status/1176086435935457280

"Growth in the euro-area economy almost ground to a halt at the end of the third quarter..."

 

The Rise of Poverty Among EU Workers Since the Financial Crisis

https://www.ft.com/content/a8d292e0-e8d9-11e8-a34c-663b3f553b35

"...The share of EU workers in poverty has kept rising steadily. Poverty has risen across most forms of job contracts, even among employees with good access to benefits and social protection..."

JKR

I'd much rather live in a social democratic EU country like Denmark, Finland. Sweden, Austria, Belgium, or the Netherlands, than the UK where the elites want to turn their country into a facsimile of the U.S.A. I think Brexit is all about moving the UK toward a political - economy aligned and in accordance with the U.S. political-economy.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Virtually all economists say that Brexit will have its cruelest impact on the poor and working class.

How is that “socialism” Ken?


Nothing hurts the poor more than EU imposed austerity.  Outside of EU rules, it is possible to bring in the kind of economic policies which can actually end austerity and poverty.  There can't be proper taxation of the wealthy OR nationalization-and there can't be socialism unless at least parts of the economy can be nationalized in order to be handed over to workers' control-and their can't be sufficient levels of spending to deal with poverty under EU rules.

And it's not as though the only way the UK can trade with Europe is through membership in the EU.

If the Remain leadership was in a agreement with the idea that the EU needed to be radically reformed and committed to battling for such reform, it might be different....but the Remain leadership, especially those in the PLP, doesn't care about the workers and the poor-it is only obsessed with the EU issue because it has seen it as a way to force Corbyn out and replace him with a right-winger.  

That's all it has ever been about with you too, nicky.

You don't care whether Labour wins the next election or not.

You just want to make sure it never deviates from the Third Way again-even though support for the Third Way is completely extinct out there in the British electorate and even though Labour cannot win any future elections on antisocialist, prowar policy offers.

nicky

Yes Ken, I absolutely care whether Labour wins the next UK election.

that is why I recognize that Corbyn must be replaced in order for them to do so. 

Corbyn has now handicapped his party enormously by saddling it with an albatross of a Brexit policy, at odds with the overwhelming views of its membership. Electoral oblivion looms like an oncoming locomotive.

Can you point to any democratic election where a leader disapproved of (or more accurately reviled) by a margin of 4 to 1 has ever led his party to victory?..... We’re waiting .....

 

nicky

On a brighter note, the UK Supreme Court has unanimously handed Johnson the most comprehensive possible defeat on his prorogation ploy.

They recognize that prorogation is justiciable and cannot be exercised for an oblique motive.

A refreshing contrast with our former Governor General who spinelessly acceded to Harper’s prorogation in 2008, which saddled Canada with 7 more years of him.

JKR

With the Conservatives bungling up things for over 3 year years it’s hard to believe Labour isn’t ahead by at least a dozen percentage points! Instead the polls have Labour running back in second place at best! I can’t ever remember such an incompetent government placed with such an unpopular official opposition simultaneously in the UK or Canada.

NDPP

The United Kingdom is No Longer A Constitutional Monarchy

https://archbishopcranmer.com/united-kingdom-no-longer-constitutional-mo...

"This is a seismic constitutional shift in the United Kingdom if not an unglorious revolution. We are now ruled by 11 Justices of the Supreme Court - unelected, unaccountable and unimpeachable..."

 

Official Pro-European Union Campaign is Part-Funded By Goldman Sachs

https://t.co/ja310gKGgf

Official pro-European Union campaign is part-funded by Goldman Sachs, CitiGroup, Morgan Stanley and France's Airbus and Eurostar, Electoral Commission figures show..."

JKR

Why are a few people on the left siding with the likes of Boris, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump?

nicky
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

With the Conservatives bungling up things for over 3 year years it’s hard to believe Labour isn’t ahead by at least a dozen percentage points! Instead the polls have Labour running back in second place at best! I can’t ever remember such an incompetent government placed with such an unpopular official opposition simultaneously in the UK or Canada.

Corbyn's only unpopular, at the moment, because he has been subjected to the most relentless campaign of coordinated lies, slanders, and hatred in the history of UK politics.

He has done nothing to deserve any of the vile accusations hurled against him

Solidarity with the people of Palestine is not, in any universe, antisemitism.

Support for a United Ireland and an end to violence through negotiations with Sinn Fein was never support for terrorism-and the nonviolent Catholic party in the North, the SDLP, supported-and continued to support-the goal of a United Ireland as well.

And the policy he has put forth on the EU question is a policy both the Remain and Leave wings of Labour should be able to live with, since it involves negotiations with the EU for a decent deal to get out and a second referendum after the election to give the voters the final say-which is the only way to GET a second referendum since the votes for it can never be found in the current parliament, as the repeated defeats for referendum bills prove.

Corbyn is an eloquent speaker, represents the socialist values virtually everyone in the party OTHER than the anti-Corbyn wing of the PLP holds, and was leading the Tories in the polls before the despicable false accusation campaign about antisemitism started.

If Corbyn is forced out, it sends the message that a decent person will never be allowed to lead the Labour Party.  There isno possible way that sending such a message can lead to the election of a Labour government or even Corbyn's replacement by anyone who isn't a Blairite.

nicky

That is utter nonsense Ken

polls show Labour wd get an immediate 10% bounce if they ditch Corbyn

corbyn is likely the only Labour leader who would lose to Johnson. And lose big

NorthReport

Bingo!

JKR wrote:

Why are a few people on the left siding with the likes of Boris, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

That is utter nonsense Ken

polls show Labour wd get an immediate 10% bounce if they ditch Corbyn

corbyn is likely the only Labour leader who would lose to Johnson. And lose big

They would get no bounce at all with a Blairite as leader, with someone who was viciously anti-Left and started kicking people out of the party again just for being socialist.  They'd get no bounce with anyone who still defended Blair's antisocialism and the pointless, unwinnable wars he got the UK into.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Bingo!

JKR wrote:

Why are a few people on the left siding with the likes of Boris, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump?

No one is siding with them.  Some of the Left are siding with the working-class people of all races, in the North and Northeast of England who have been totally left out in the cold economically by Thatcherism, Blairism and the EU's mandatory austerity capitalism.  There is nothing that can be done to help that part of the UK without breaking with the EU's pointless restrictions on taxation, spending and the ability to nationalize.

If the EU could be changed, it would be different.  But it is impossible to ever change the EU.

nicky

Why don’t you show us some evidence for that dubious proposition Ken?

here is some that shows the contrary:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-poll-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-bounce-brexit-a9024116.html

NorthReport

Enough with the nonsense Ken. The EU leadership has already admitted they need to make changes in relation to austerity.

Ken Burch wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Bingo!

JKR wrote:

Why are a few people on the left siding with the likes of Boris, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump?

No one is siding with them.  Some of the Left are siding with the working-class people of all races, in the North and Northeast of England who have been totally left out in the cold economically by Thatcherism, Blairism and the EU's mandatory austerity capitalism.  There is nothing that can be done to help that part of the UK without breaking with the EU's pointless restrictions on taxation, spending and the ability to nationalize.

If the EU could be changed, it would be different.  But it is impossible to ever change the EU.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

With the Conservatives bungling up things for over 3 year years it’s hard to believe Labour isn’t ahead by at least a dozen percentage points! Instead the polls have Labour running back in second place at best! I can’t ever remember such an incompetent government placed with such an unpopular official opposition simultaneously in the UK or Canada.

Corbyn's only unpopular, at the moment, because he has been subjected to the most relentless campaign of coordinated lies, slanders, and hatred in the history of UK politics.

He has done nothing to deserve any of the vile accusations hurled against him

Solidarity with the people of Palestine is not, in any universe, antisemitism.

Support for a United Ireland and an end to violence through negotiations with Sinn Fein was never support for terrorism-and the nonviolent Catholic party in the North, the SDLP, supported-and continued to support-the goal of a United Ireland as well.

And the policy he has put forth on the EU question is a policy both the Remain and Leave wings of Labour should be able to live with, since it involves negotiations with the EU for a decent deal to get out and a second referendum after the election to give the voters the final say-which is the only way to GET a second referendum since the votes for it can never be found in the current parliament, as the repeated defeats for referendum bills prove.

Corbyn is an eloquent speaker, represents the socialist values virtually everyone in the party OTHER than the anti-Corbyn wing of the PLP holds, and was leading the Tories in the polls before the despicable false accusation campaign about antisemitism started.

If Corbyn is forced out, it sends the message that a decent person will never be allowed to lead the Labour Party.  There isno possible way that sending such a message can lead to the election of a Labour government or even Corbyn's replacement by anyone who isn't a Blairite.

So what if Labour loses the upcoming election very badly because it decides now to allow itself to be led in the election by a leader who continues to be very unpopular with the general public? Going into the upcoming election with such an unpopular leader is obviously very risky. To stand any chance Labour is now depending on Boris to implode, which is possible and the Liberal Democrats to not take advantage of the situation. I don’t think Labour should be taking such a risky path but many dyed in the wool socialists in the UK now seem to be rolling the dice and going for broke even if it means taking the risk that the UK lurch much farther to the right under yet another Conservative government without the constraints placed on the UK by the EU. People should remember that things could get worse for the working class in the UK if the Conservatives shape the UK’s post-Brexit political-economy.

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