World financial crisis deepens

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M. Spector M. Spector's picture
World financial crisis deepens

Quote:
Obama’s package is meant to generate three to four million new jobs which will maybe cope with job losses from December through next April if we’re lucky. It’s piecemeal: a wad  of money for schools, for health insurance for all children, for “infrastructure” – which means good times for cement pourers.

But as Paul Craig Roberts has pointed out many times on this site,  to clamber out of this terrible economic hole Uncle Sam has to start making things he can sell abroad. That way the nation can offset the problem of running huge deficits importing things from China. “Infrastructure repair”  doesn’t do that. It causes traffic jams for the next ten years as the highway lobby gets its new overpasses, underpasses, bridges, freeway exits and toll-road expressways, none of which can be sold overseas and all of which don’t restore America’s near-dead manufacturing economy.

[url=Alexander">http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn02132009.html][u]A... Cockburn[/url]

NorthReport

Imagine going to your bank after working hard for years saving your money to find the place padlocked. If this keeps up we could well see bloodshed in the streets.

Four U.S. Banks Seized, Bringing Total for Year to 13  

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDvuCGKfCGeM&refer=home

 

Banks in Florida, Illinois, Nebraska and Oregon were shut by state regulators, boosting the toll of failed institutions to 13, as a worsening economy and slumping housing market pushes home foreclosures to records.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

North Report, why did you have to start [url=another">http://www.rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/planet-earth... thread on this topic[/url] when you already knew about the existence of this one?

NorthReport

Because I did a search and it did not show up. Have it closed out if you wish.

NorthReport

Well we seem to know about what George Bush's legacy has done to the USA, and where the USA is headed, but the more important question is what is going to happen to the rest of us mere citizens on the rest of the planet? Our Canadian leaders for some time now have been doing a good job of basically trying to merge Canada with the USA, and this appraoach hardly seems to be in Canadians' best interests. 

Decade at Bernie’s

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/opinion/16krugman.html?_r=1

Quote:
Yet until very recently Americans believed they were getting richer, because they received statements saying that their houses and stock portfolios were appreciating in value faster than their debts were increasing. And if the belief of many Americans that they could count on capital gains forever sounds naïve, it’s worth remembering just how many influential voices — notably in right-leaning publications like The Wall Street Journal, Forbes and National Review — promoted that belief, and ridiculed those who worried about low savings and high levels of debt.

Then reality struck, and it turned out that the worriers had been right all along. The surge in asset values had been an illusion — but the surge in debt had been all too real.

So now we’re in trouble — deeper trouble, I think, than most people realize even now. And I’m not just talking about the dwindling band of forecasters who still insist that the economy will snap back any day now.

For this is a broad-based mess. Everyone talks about the problems of the banks, which are indeed in even worse shape than the rest of the system. But the banks aren’t the only players with too much debt and too few assets; the same description applies to the private sector as a whole.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Eastern Europe is About to Blow

Quote:

Eastern Europe is about to blow. If it does, it could take much of the EU with it. It's an emergency situation but there are no easy solutions. The IMF doesn't have the resources for a bailout of this size and the recession is spreading faster than relief efforts can be organized. Finance ministers and central bankers are running in circles trying to put out one fire after another. Its only a matter of time before they are overtaken by events. If one country is allowed to default, the dominoes could begin to tumble through the whole region. This could trigger dramatic changes in the political landscape. The rise of fascism is no longer out of the question.

The UK Telegraph's economics editor Edmund Conway sums it up like this:

"A 'second wave' of countries will fall victim to the economic crisis and face being bailed out by the International Monetary Fund, its chief warned at the G7 summit in Rome....But with some countries' economies effectively dwarfed by the size of their banking sector and its financial liabilities, there are fears they could fall victim to balance of payments and currency crises, much as Iceland did before receiving emergency assistance from the IMF last year." (UK Telegraph) 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Ireland could default

Quote:

FEARS are mounting that Ireland could default on its soaring national debt pile, amid continuing worries about its troubled banking sector.

The cost of buying insurance against Irish government bonds rose to record highs on Friday, having almost tripled in a week. Debt-market investors now rank Ireland as the most troubled economy in Europe.

 

NorthReport

Things must be a lot worse in financial circles than most of us realize. I never thought I would see this kind of article being written in the Washington Post.  

Imagine being so concerned with government ownership of their banks, some Americans would rather go bankrupct than be be called social democrats.  Idiots. 

Nationalize the Banks! We're all Swedes Now

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/12/AR2009021201602.html?sid=ST2009021203365&s_pos&s_pos=

Quote:
The U.S. banking system is close to being insolvent, and unless we want to become like Japan in the 1990s -- or the United States in the 1930s -- the only way to save it is to nationalize it.

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Nationalization -- call it "receivership" if that sounds more palatable -- won't be easy, but here is a set of principles for the government to go by:

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Basically, we're all Swedes now. We have used all our bullets, and the boogeyman is still coming. Let's pull out the bazooka and be done with it.

NorthReport

A lot of people are hoping the big investors are sitting on the sidelines waiting for things to hit bottom, but are they, and will they? This oil price could spell financial disaster for Alberta and Canada as well.

Oil Falls Below $35 as Deepening Recession Cuts Fuel Demand

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0IBqjpMXnns&refer=home

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Gold at seven-month high, up 3% on flight to safetyCopper contract plunges amid macro-level demand worries

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gold-hits-7-month-high-above/story.aspx?guid=20A5EE6E-B892-4639-ABF8-540A566F0187

 

 

Doug

Japan’s central bank took too long to fight deflation; its fiscal stimulus was cut off too quickly with an ill-judged tax increase in 1997; and it did not begin to clean up and recapitalise its banks until 1998, almost a decade after the bubble had burst. But the history of bank failures suggests that Japan’s slump was not only the result of policy errors. Its problems were deeper-rooted than those in countries that recovered more quickly. Today’s mess in America is as big as Japan’s—and in some ways harder to fix.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13110352

 

Fidel

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12328]F... Capitalism Hits a Wall[/url] The Oligarchs’ Escape Plan – at the Treasury’s Expense >Michael Hudson

Quote:
The financial “wealth creation” game is over. Economies emerged from World War II relatively free of debt, but the 60-year global run-up has run its course. Finance capitalism is in a state of collapse, and marginal palliatives cannot revive it. The U.S. economy cannot “inflate its way out of debt,” because this would collapse the dollar and end its dreams of global empire by forcing foreign countries to go their own way. There is too little manufacturing to make the economy more “competitive,” given its high housing costs, transportation, debt and tax overhead. A quarter to a third of U.S. real estate has fallen into Negative Equity, so no banks will lend to them. The economy has hit a debt wall and is falling into Negative Equity, where it may remain for as far as the eye can see until there is a debt write-down. . .

Today it is easier to see that the Western economies cannot go on the way they have been. They have reached the point where the debts exceed the ability to pay. Instead of recognizing this fact and scaling debts back into line with the ability to pay, the Obama-Geithner plan is to bail out the big banks and hedge funds, keeping the volume of debt in place and indeed, growing once again through the “magic of compound interest.” The result can only be an increasingly extractive economy, until households, real estate and industrial companies, states and cities, and the national government itself is driven into debt peonage.

Wall Streeters have taken over resource allocation and economic planning in neofeudal America.

NorthReport

Some analysts say it is the last hour of trading on Wall Street that counts - well we're close to that now and prices are beginning to recover. Let's see what happens. 

NorthReport

And the TSX was down 300 points as well - that is our pension plan folks!

U.S. Stocks Tumble on Recession Concern; Citigroup, GM Fall

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3VqcI4keryE&refer=home

 

U.S. stocks tumbled to a three-month low, extending a global slump, as a record contraction in New York manufacturing spurred concern the government’s stimulus package won’t be enough to curb the deepening recession.

NorthReport

I'm so surprised!

 

 Texas financier charged with 'massive' fraud

 

 

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090217.wstanford0217/BNStory/Business/home

Doug

Sofia, a 34-year-old Frenchwoman, moved here a year ago to take a job in advertising, so confident about Dubai’s fast-growing economy that she bought an apartment for almost $300,000 with a 15-year mortgage.

Now, like many of the foreign workers who make up 90 percent of the population here, she has been laid off and faces the prospect of being forced to leave this Persian Gulf city — or worse.

“I’m really scared of what could happen, because I bought property here,” said Sofia, who asked that her last name be withheld because she is still hunting for a new job. “If I can’t pay it off, I was told I could end up in debtors’ prison.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/middleeast/12dubai.html?_r=1

 

Fidel

If I can’t pay it off, I was told I could end up in debtors’ prison.”

Unfreakin-believable! They need a revolution.

Doug

GM to cut 47,000 jobs:

General Motors Corp., presenting a dire outlook for the future, said today it may need US$30 billion in total government financing to survive the recession and would cut 47,000 jobs around the world and close five more U.S. factories in a massive restructuring plan.

The battered automaker is already surviving on $13.4 billion in federal loans and said in a plan submitted to the U.S. Treasury Department that it would seek an additional $16.6 billion if economic conditions worsen, but it could achieve profitability in two years and fully repay its loans by 2017.

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/588828

 

 

NorthReport

Fidel

Where's Charles Dickens when we need him!

 Harper would probably like to legislate that policy in Canada. Except for the wealthy business executives of course.

NorthReport

 Doesn't look good!

Japan Stocks Drop on Recession Fear; Topix Falls to 25-Year Low

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aE.k0E8R_KQk&refer=home

 

Doug

Long regarded in the US as a folly of Europeans, nationalisation is gaining rapid acceptance among Washington opinion-formers – and not just with Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve chairman. Perhaps stranger still, many of those talking about nationalising banks are Republicans.

Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator for South Carolina, says that many of his colleagues, including John McCain, the defeated presidential candidate, agree with his view that nationalisation of some banks should be “on the table”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2ad3b750-fd27-11dd-a103-000077b07658.html

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

Doug wrote:

Long regarded in the US as a folly of Europeans, nationalisation is gaining rapid acceptance among Washington opinion-formers – and not just with Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve chairman. Perhaps stranger still, many of those talking about nationalising banks are Republicans.

Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator for South Carolina, says that many of his colleagues, including John McCain, the defeated presidential candidate, agree with his view that nationalisation of some banks should be “on the table”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2ad3b750-fd27-11dd-a103-000077b07658.html

 I think I just saw a pig flying past my window.... 

Fidel

NorthReport wrote:

Fidel

Where's Charles Dickens when we need him!

 Harper would probably like to legislate that policy in Canada. Except for the wealthy business executives of course.

I can picture people peeling rope in workhouses, and children selling ham sandwiches and themselves in the streets.

NorthReport

Gold hits record against euro on fear of Zimbabwean-style response to bank crisis

 

Gold has surged to an all-time high against the euro, sterling, and a string of Asian currencies on mounting concerns that global authorities are embarking on a "Zimbabwe-style" debasement of the international monetary system.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4682554/Gold-hits-record-against-euro-on-fear-of-Zimbabwean-style-response-to-bank-crisis.html

One analyst said the spectacle of central banks slashing rates to zero across the world and buying government debt as if there was no tomorrow feels like the "beginning of the 'Zimbabwe-isation' of the global economy".

Gold bugs have been emboldened by news that Russia has accumulated 90 tonnes over the last 15 months.

"We are buying gold," said Alexei Ulyukayev, deputy head of Russia's central bank. The bank is under orders from the Kremlin to raise the gold share of foreign reserves to 10pc.

KenS

Totally predictable.

Investors have been on the hunt for two years for relatively safe havens that do not pay zero return.

They all flocked to oil and drove that price up- which had to come down as the economic crises slashed consumption. [duh]

The majority investors with lots of cash to park now accept zero returns. But some don't and some don't need the investment to be very liquid. Thay can still dump gold if that starts to look like its going down.

And Russia isn't buying gold as a hedge. The number one producer is putting it in reserves to help push the price up.

All of this makes buying gold at least for the time being a no brainer. Folks can always get out, and giving the lack of alternative investments they probably won't have to for at least some time [for at least as long as they all are looking for].

I think its more a sign of volatility and uncertainty rather than panic. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the real measure of people being scared is increase in the purchases of zero return US government T bills. 

George Victor

 

"I think its more a sign of volatility and uncertainty rather than panic. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the real measure of people being scared is increase in the purchases of zero return US government T bills."

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A year back, some folks hereabouts were in a fog about the meaning of investments for (to use a useful U.S. term that's come to stay) "mainstreet"  They felt that  should only be a concern of the "capitalists" of  "Wall Street".

One of the very interesting developments over that year has been the evidence of a steepening learning curve on the subject of "market" ,and the need to know about it in order to get beyond the comfortable but irrelevant old spitball tossing that passed for left criticism.

 

NorthReport

TSX down another 200 points so far today, at, or below its 2009 low for the year - another buying opportunity! Laughing

Doug

It's managed to divert the interest of the US intelligence community away from terrorism for a moment or two.

Around the world, unemployment is rising and incomes are falling, and it isn't clear how long the recession will last or how deep it will get. The global economic situation is so serious that the head of U.S. intelligence agencies now says it has surpassed terrorism as the top threat to national security.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100781975

Doug

High-end shops are having to treat middle-class shoppers like human beings!

It's nothing personal. A former employee of the Yves Saint Laurent shop on Madison Avenue once confided that it is a common and effective practice to size up a customer by looking at two simple things: his watch and his shoes. If the accessories are not expensive, he is not worth the effort of even a simple hello.

But the recession has quickly transformed the attitude of the Madison Avenue work force from impenetrable to inviting, seemingly overnight. Salesclerks, haunted by the papered-over windows of stores next door, are being trained to exude a level of customer service rivaling that of Disney.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/18/style/18shopping.php

 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

George Victor wrote:

A year back, some folks hereabouts were in a fog about the meaning of investments for (to use a useful U.S. term that's come to stay) "mainstreet"  They felt that  should only be a concern of the "capitalists" of  "Wall Street".

One of the very interesting developments over that year has been the evidence of a steepening learning curve on the subject of "market" ,and the need to know about it in order to get beyond the comfortable but irrelevant old spitball tossing that passed for left criticism.

I know you think you've said something profound here, but I sure as hell can't figure out what you meant (other than yet another standard backhanded insult for the 'knowledge' the left have of 'the market').

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=Eastern">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/02/eastern-europe-is-about-to-blow/][... Europe is About to Blow[/url]
by Mike Whitney

Quote:
East Europe is about to blow. If it does, it could take much of the EU with it. It's an emergency situation but there are no easy solutions. The IMF doesn't have the resources for a bailout of this size and the recession is spreading faster than relief efforts can be organized. Finance ministers and central bankers are running in circles trying to put out one fire after another. It's only a matter of time before they are overtaken by events. If one country is allowed to default, the dominoes could begin to tumble through the whole region. This could trigger dramatic changes in the political landscape. The rise of fascism is no longer out of the question.

The UK Telegraph's economics editor Edmund Conway sums it up like this:

Quote:
A "second wave" of countries will fall victim to the economic crisis and face being bailed out by the International Monetary Fund, its chief warned at the G7 summit in Rome. . . . But with some countries' economies effectively dwarfed by the size of their banking sector and its financial liabilities, there are fears they could fall victim to balance of payments and currency crises, much as Iceland did before receiving emergency assistance from the IMF last year.

Foreign capital is fleeing at an alarming rate. Nearly two-thirds gone in matter of months. Deflation is pushing down asset prices, increasing unemployment, and compounding the debt-burden of financial institutions. It's the same everywhere. The economies are being hollowed out and stripped of capital. Ukraine is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary have all slipped into a low-grade depression. The countries that followed Washington's economic regimen have suffered the most. They bet that debt-fueled growth and exports would lead to prosperity. That dream has been shattered. They haven't developed their consumer markets, so demand is weak. Capital is scarce and businesses are being forced to deleverage to avoid default. All of Eastern Europe has gotten a margin call....

An economic crisis is quickly turning into a political crisis. Riots have broken out in capitals across Eastern Europe. Mr. Geithner had better be paying attention. The prospects for political upheaval are growing. Public anxiety can spill out onto the streets at a moments notice. Governments must act quickly and with resolve. These countries need hard currency and guarantees of support. If they don't get help, the simmering public fury will turn into something much more lethal.

UK Telegraph's economics correspondent Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:

Quote:
"Global banks have so far written down half the $2,200bn losses estimated by the IMF. On top of this, EU banks have $1,600bn of exposure to Eastern Europe - increasingly viewed as Europe's subprime debacle, and EU corporate debts are 95pc of GDP compared to 50pc in the US, a mounting concern as default rates surge.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Actually, the babblers I've learned the most from don't show up very often these days. There was a time when the profound was not unknown - or even uncommon.

There is an ebb and flow; I don't see high tide currently.

George Victor

Look around you, LTJ.  You don't see any difference in the amount and degree of concern about what is happening to us all? Look back (as far as you can ) in the threads. You don't see a growing sophistication?

Not looking for profundity, LTJ.  Not even serious introspection. My world is moved, however, by observation, and that is what I have observed. I see it as progress. You're saying  there never was a problem.

Right.

But I think this is something you would not have seen a year back, or, at least, seen it accepted so readily :

 "I think its more a sign of volatility and uncertainty rather than panic. It may sound counter-intuitive, but the real measure of people being scared is increase in the purchases of zero return US government T bills."

 

Why would you leave out the quote that gives context to what someone has said?

George Victor

Well try to understand the flotsam and jetsam, are just trying to meet your critical level, LTJ.  

Until the second coming.Laughing

NorthReport
Fidel

[url=European">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/4590512... bank bail-out could push EU into crisis[/url]

 

A bail-out of the toxic assets held by European banks' could plunge the European Union into crisis, according to a confidential Brussels document

Quote:

“Estimates of total expected asset write-downs suggest that the budgetary costs – actual and contingent - of asset relief could be very large both in absolute terms and relative to GDP in member states,” the EC document, seen by The Daily Telegraph, cautioned.

"It is essential that government support through asset relief should not be on a scale that raises concern about over-indebtedness or financing problems.”

The secret 17-page paper was discussed by finance ministers, including the Chancellor Alistair Darling on Tuesday.

National leaders and EU officials share fears that a second bank bail-out in Europe will raise government borrowing at a time when investors - particularly those who lend money to European governments - have growing doubts over the ability of countries such as Spain, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Britain to pay it back.  .  .

In line with the risk, and the weak performance of some EU economies compared to others, investors are demanding increasingly higher interest to lend to countries such as Italy instead of Germany. Ministers and officials fear that the process could lead to vicious spiral that threatens to tear both the euro and the EU apart.

[url=Give">http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22037.htm]... Us Back Our F****** Money[/url]

NorthReport
LeighT

China goes shopping this week on oil deals with various countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21yuan.html?hp

so oil extraction and development is conceived as rescuing the world from an economic crisis?

politically, it still looks like whoever gets the on-and-offshore petrofuels, wins.  this goes for Eastern Europe too, where in Ukraine for example there have been reports this week over US (Bermuda-based) companies vying for offshore Black Sea deposits, vs. keeping them under Ukraine's public control.  Yesterday, in Ukraine, the Rada (parliament) voted not to privatize state assets.  meanwhile they've got their currency and banking issues, getting torn apart as usual.  a poll on the www.ukranews.com site asks whether they should borrow from the US, Russia, the EU, or China or expropriate the oligarchs. 

and on it goes.  tugs of war over resources, Afghanistan too. 

so i guess we're hoping for what, a complete restructuring of the financial system after the EU meets end of month, and after China gets its say at the G20?

that's obviously not going to satisfy the world's peoples, nor the other creatures on the planet if it's based on fossil fuel and other resource extraction.  

 

 

 

NorthReport
George Victor

LT: 

"that's obviously not going to satisfy the world's peoples, nor the other creatures on the planet if it's based on fossil fuel and other resource extraction. "

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Right on, LT. We need to be able to satisfy both environmental and economic concerns.

For a third of a century now, since Charles Taylor first posited the thought, this reader has been waiting for things to get bad enough that all can come together to do what has to be done to satisfy both camps...for they are still in two camps (although "tree hugger" is now an out of fashion epithet.).

And as we've seen, environment has given way to eonomy. We knew our Stephen was only mouthing politically necessary platitudes, but pres. Obama sounded sorta serious ...at first.

Perhaps you'd care to take a shot at speculating at what point, realization might break through, Taylor's "moment of truth" be realized, and move to  what sort of international forum for resolution?

Maybe in a new thread?

 

LeighT

thanks for the questions George Victor, but i'm a lousy speculator.

my dad says he has to teach me how to bet. whatever.

wasn't Charles Taylor a renegade in Libya? who also consorted with the Bush gang? you've referring to another, i imagine. nb. i have no background in politics, and exceedingly little in history.  trying to catch up in these areas, but it takes time, in short supply. 

um, on the realizations, obviously pretty widespread, it's just too slow.

even after Obama's visit here, there was still the 'dialogue' around green electric grid, which would be nice, done publicly.  i'm torn between thinking Obama is being diplomatic ( incrementalist) vs. just another lackey.  hoping its the former.  but again, of course everyone wants things to change faster.  it's been too long already.

fora?  all of the above.   ie)  every forum that exists, and more created. ultimately the fora that will bring the most energy will be those which meet people's direct basic needs, and which are clearest in upholding basic needs.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NorthReport

In aApril the BBC is going to host a debate on whether or not we can afford to consider the environment with the  economic situation so bad. 

LeighT

yesterday Obama mentioned Copenhagen in the press conference.

here's the Copenhagen site- UN Climate Conference in Dec. of this year:

http://en.cop15.dk/

the main page also has an article posted today on China telling Clinton upon her arrival in Beijing that it won't let the economy get in the way of dealing with climate change, that it wants to work with the US.

 hopefully this means tax and cap and not just stupid sequestering.  though how serious can they be when they're buying up the world's oil fields.  as it has been mentioned elsewhere, pushing ahead on further oil field development can ditch better job creators especially when polluter taxes and caps are disproportionally applied to oil users rather than extractors and processors.  but maybe they aren't too worried about good job creation.

in any case, they've got lots of sun and could do very well with alternatives.  i really don't understand why rich people are so competitive- they seem to think they have to beat everyone else out of everything - control ALL the main energy sources- and be on top of the pile.  or maybe they're thinking they're doing it for 'self-defense'  to keep the 'other bad guys' from getting an upper hand.

so this is where people have to keep telling them that these oil games need to stop, period. leave the oil in the ground. use fair transition strategies for unionized labour to shift to recycling materials rather than infinite mining, to renewables and jobs in conservation rather than fossil fuels.  we know all this.  just a matter of keeping at it.

 

 

 

George Victor

LT:

"so this is where people have to keep telling them that these oil games need to stop, period. leave the oil in the ground. use fair transition strategies for unionized labour to shift to recycling materials rather than infinite mining, to renewables and jobs in conservation rather than fossil fuels.  we know all this.  just a matter of keeping at it."

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Right on. Now to see when things get so bad that this becomes the universal understanding (Charles Taylor, Canada's leading moral philosopher, 2007 (or was it 2008) winner of the Templeton award... in a paper in the winter of '74-75 he called it the emergence of the "Spirit of Dunkirk" when all would pull together...like oars...n'stuff. )

Appreciate  your  "stream of consciousness" reasoning. Straight up stuff. Please do not adulterate reasoning  with study of politics. Wink

Doug

The Senate Banking Committee chair is mulling nationalization:

Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd said banks may have to be nationalized for “a short time” to help lenders such as Citigroup Inc.Bank of America Corp. survive the worst economic slump in 75 years. and

“I don’t welcome that at all, but I could see how it’s possible it may happen,” Dodd said today on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt” to be broadcast this weekend. “I’m concerned that we may end up having to do that, at least for a short time.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a402k68PAWUA&refer=home

I guess that's how this is going to go. They didn't want to but felt they had to. 

It's also worth listening to what Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism has to say about it:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1041773905

NorthReport

How does one define world depression.

What was unthinkable one month ago is now happening - are you and your co-workers going to have to take a pay cut to hold onto your jobs? I think that is coming soon to a location near you.

Gold is over $1,000. an ounce, the S&P is down another 10 points today.

I think we will see the rise of facism soon. Obviously with two world depressions, and many recessions, to its credit now, capitalism has failed the vast majority of our planet's inhabitants. 

Soros sees no bottom for world financial "collapse"

http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUKTRE51K0AV20090221

Renowned investor George Soros said on Friday the world financial system has effectively disintegrated, adding that there is yet no prospect of a near-term resolution to the crisis.

Soros said the turbulence is actually more severe than during the Great Depression, comparing the current situation to the demise of the Soviet Union.

He said the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September marked a turning point in the functioning of the market system.

"We witnessed the collapse of the financial system," Soros said at a Columbia University dinner. "It was placed on life support, and it's still on life support. There's no sign that we are anywhere near a bottom."

His comments echoed those made earlier at the same conference by Paul Volcker, a former Federal Reserve chairman who is now a top adviser to President Barack Obama.

Volcker said industrial production around the world was declining even more rapidly than in the United States, which is itself under severe strain.

"I don't remember any time, maybe even in the Great Depression, when things went down quite so fast, quite so uniformly around the world," Volcker said.

  

LeighT

thanks George Victor.  i appreciate that you and others have seen the kind of shift that needs to happen vis a vis eco & eco, for some time.

maybe you'd like to start a thread on that?

 

George Victor

Gotta ponder that for a bit.  I was being a chicken in suggesting that you lead off.

Do we create a socio-economic situation some years down the road and imagine a gathering under UN auspices and what they would have to propose?  And how decisions would be enforced?

I tremble at thoughts of the reaction, hereabouts.

They're nicer to Newbies...for a day or two.

LeighT

well, i sort of carried the theme forward below, in the second comment at the link below.

i tend to be more comfortable working from the ground, in more ways than one, while keeping an eye on other levels, so i've stuck with looking at the 'eco-eco' crunch here from a grassroots and water level, seeing how that intersects with the new Harper/Iggy budget implementation bill. 

http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2009/02/14/the-devil-is-in-the-budge...

George Victor

Okay

Lets move to the quieter corner, "rabble news features" under a thread titled "eco and eco".

See what happens....

NorthReport

Who knew!

The MSM Is Currently Feeding Us Dog Crap

http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=5281

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HousingPANIC - The Housing Bubble Blog with an Attitude Problem, 2005 - 2008

A time capsule of the greatest financial mania in the history of mankind, told in real-time by regular folks and patriots. May future generations better understand the madness of crowds, and how power and money corrupt.

http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=5281

Trillions have been lost. Lives have been ruined. Future generations will be forced to pick up our tab. And empty and unwanted homes litter the land.

Yet the thieves have not been arrested. Laws are not enforced. Realtors practice their lies, restraint of trade, and deceit. And around the world, home prices are still falling and will keep falling until they make economic sense again.

NorthReport

How are Canadians going to react if they find out the value of their homes are worth only 50% of what they think they are worth? 

http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/

The Southern California housing situation is deteriorating even further with the recent report showing that the median price is now back to $250,000; at this level we would have to go back to February of 2002 which means we have erased 6 years of price gains.  And we are not far from 2000 price levels.  The median price of a Southern California home on January of 2000 was $209,000.  Many doubted that we would face a lost decade but here in California we are certainly going to have our lost housing decade similar to what Japan faced in their overall economy. In this report, I’m going to put to rest some misconceptions floating around and once again, we hear the bottom callers out in full force but their conviction is weaker since they have been proven wrong over and over again.

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So this notion of decoupling is proven false.  What other proof do you want?  Take a look at the global stock markets and they are in tatters.  The last time we had such synchronized global wealth destruction was during the Great Depression.  People forget that the Great Depression was global in reach and wasn’t only isolated to the 1929 Crash on Wall Street.  It was much larger and more complex than the Fed simply not stepping in.  We had conflicts in Europe with Germany drowning in war reparations.  You had a collapsing commodities market.  You had rising unemployment in supposedly stable countries.  So all these things entered into a perfect storm.  It took us nearly a century to come back to something similar to that time and here we are again.

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