Would a PC party led by Doug Ford reduce the NDP to non-party status in 2018?

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Lord Palmerston

Well I don't think anyone would disagree that the NDP shouldn't be focused on winning over the votes of left-wing academics and intellectuals.  They're only a sizeable presence in 1 riding - Trinity-Spadina - and Marchese lost by such a wide margin that it didn't make a difference.  

Rokossovsky

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Stockholm wrote:
Horwath sells very well with autoworkers in Oshawa and cab drivers in Brampton...she doesn't sell so well among professors of Marxist theory at York U who live in the Annex

Not sure if this is a dig at Panitch or not, but incidentally "York U" people have done quite well as NDP leaders.  Broadbent taught political theory there before going into politics (and his partner is Marxist political theorist Ellen Wood).  Jack Layton did his Ph.D. at York.

Left-wing critique of that era was not trying to sell the idea that opposition to "consumption" taxes was fundamentally a "right-wing" policy, just because the right had taken it up as selling point for their anti-tax agenda. Broadbent, for example, opposed the GST, which later morphed into the HST. Broadbent has more in common with Horwath on his fundamental view of tax structure, than say, Greg Albo, who accepts the neo-liberal restructuring as inevitable, and proposes that consumption taxes can be mobilized for the public good.

That was the approach that Miller took.

If Rob Ford taught us anything, it should be that abandoning traditional left-wing opposition to fees and consumption taxes, and accepting the neo-liberal downloaded tax structure, as Miller did, based on the premise that progressive policy can be funded on the backs of the lower classes through fees and consumption taxes, is not just questionable as a "left-wing" idea because it does not address income inequity, and in fact widens it, but that it is also politically unsustainable because it can be used by the right to mobilize popular opinion against "taxes" and the very idea that government can, and should, act for the "common good".

Horwath's attempt to reset the agenda and win back this important demographic, as the champion of the "little guy", might have been less than well executed, but it is at least recognition that the NDP needs to appeal to a broader base than the left-wing intelligentsia in the downtown Toronto core.

NS NS's picture

I agree with R.

I think that the Left need to do a much better job to explain why fees are bad. Isn’t it like being taxed twice?

I have a question that may be unrelated.

Why do provincial as well as federal governments under Libs and Cons use rebates as a way to "bribe" citizens with their own money. Is it because it works at giving people who are low and middle income much needed cash and is therefore popular? Is it a short term solution so administrations don’t actually have to change anything?

Debater

Doug Ford could keep Tory leadership race from ending before it starts

November 11, 2014

Ex-premier Bill Davis has endorsed provincial Progressive Conservative leadership candidate Christine Elliott as the party’s race officially opened on the weekend.

. . .

If there’s a problem with Davis’s endorsement, it’s that these days, somebody advocating Davis’s actual policies would be on the left wing of the Liberal party, maybe a New Democrat. He expanded Ontario’s government enormously, increased funding to Catholic schools, bought a chunk of oil giant Suncor, ran deficits, imposed rent controls. The Davis years weren’t a great time for small-c conservatives.

. . .

Ford, the less likeable of the brothers who have dominated Toronto politics the last four years, just came second in Toronto’s mayoral race, with 331,000 votes to winner John Tory’s 395,000. Ford won most of Toronto’s inner suburbs, the kinds of places the Tories need, and by really big margins. Fifty, 60, even 70 per cent of the vote.

Nobody thinks the Tories will elect MPPs in Ottawa Centre or Trinity-Spadina any time soon, no matter who their leader is, but other ridings could be different. They couldn’t take Ottawa West-Nepean or Etobicoke North under their last three leaders but they did under Harris. Those are just the kinds of places Ford appeals.

------------

More here:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/reevely-is-the-tory-leadership-ra...

terrytowel

“The vast majority of our votes are independents, NDP and Liberals, scattered with a handful of Conservatives.”

“Take 150,000 off of John Tory that would vote for a dog with a PC banner no matter what — they’re hardcore PC — and you add that onto to the 330,000 and you’re almost up to 500,000. Then you look at the 905 and 705, our base. Our polling that we’ve done shows us stronger in 905-705 than we are in the 416,”

“The difference is, we can hold one party and have 10,000 people show up. We’ll go out to Timmins and invite people and just for curiosity — or Collingwood or London — and we’ll attract a couple of thousand people to an event. So we just get it on mass numbers.”

-Doug Ford

So far, thousands of people have signed up on a grassroots-led Draft Doug Ford website urging him to run to be the permanent successor to Tim Hudak.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/11/13/doug_ford_far_more_pop...

Stockholm

Doug Ford is a pathological liar. I would take any of his grandiose self-promoting blather with a huge boulder.

Still if you want to stop Doug Ford, you MUST join thre Ontario PC party and vote for Christine Elliott and rank Doug Ford dead last on your preferential ballot!

terrytowel

Stockholm wrote:

Doug Ford is a pathological liar. I would take any of his grandiose self-promoting blather with a huge boulder.

Still if you want to stop Doug Ford, you MUST join thre Ontario PC party and vote for Christine Elliott and rank Doug Ford dead last on your preferential ballot!

I think you better do that Stock, because Ford has said he is Andrea (and Wynne) worst nightmare.

As he claimed above he would take votes away from the NDP, Libs and Independents.

So where would that leave Andrea and the NDP?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

So, tt, to stop Doug Ford being mayor of Toronto, you had no choice but to do whatever it took, because it was so urgent. But to stop him from becoming leader of the OPC party, and possibly the Premier of Ontario, you don't feel the need to do anything at all. Did I get that right? Laughing

terrytowel

Michael Moriarity wrote:

So, tt, to stop Doug Ford being mayor of Toronto, you had no choice but to do whatever it took, because it was so urgent. But to stop him from becoming leader of the OPC party, and possibly the Premier of Ontario, you don't feel the need to do anything at all. Did I get that right? Laughing

I'm not part of the OPC party, so I cannot stop him from being elected PC leader of Ontario. & I refuse to buy an OPC membership (or ANY party membership) because I like being an independent. Where I'm not aligned with any one party. It goes against my principles (as an independent) to be a member of any party

If he were to be leader, I would absolutely vote anyway I could to stop him from being Premier of Ontario.

 

PrairieDemocrat15

Stockholm wrote:

Doug Ford is a pathological liar. I would take any of his grandiose self-promoting blather with a huge boulder.

Still if you want to stop Doug Ford, you MUST join thre Ontario PC party and vote for Christine Elliott and rank Doug Ford dead last on your preferential ballot!

And it doesn't stop there. Selecting Elliott, who is actually really progressive, (she is just like Bill Davis) is not enough. If she doesn't win a majority in 2018 the PC knives will come out for her. The party will be so despondent after losing 5 straight election they will certainly take the risk and select Doug Ford as their leader. He is really popular and will reduce the NDP to 0 seats and win a majority government. The only way to stop the Doug Ford PCs is to elect a majority Christine Elliot PC government in 2018!

terrytowel

Michael Prue said going after Ford nation didn't work.

The level of discontent was no greater than in Toronto where the NDP lost three seats — in large part because of Horwath’s swing to the right of the party. That, coupled with the fact Toronto voters feared Tory Leader Tim Hudak could win, had voters rushing to the polls to vote for the scandal-ridden Grits.

“I thought she was ready (for an election) and we weren’t,” said former NDP veteran MPP Michael Prue, who lost his Beaches-East York riding to the Liberals.

“It took two weeks to unfold any kind of policy at all . . . but nobody wanted to listen because they were just terrified of Hudak, and Andrea they didn’t think was left-wing enough for some of them. They thought she sounded like Rob Ford,” he told the Star.

Prue said it is hard to predict the outcome of the leadership review given the opposing views inside and outside of Toronto.

“It’s hard to know. Outside of Toronto there is not much by way of hard feelings. Inside Toronto there is. There is no question. I know my own riding association is split on the issue but those who think that heads have to roll outweigh those who don’t,” he said.

Prue points out that Horwath has gone some way to appeasing her critics by sending the election team packing.

“They were useless,” he said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/11/14/andrea_horwaths_job_at_sta...

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

terrytowel wrote:

I'm not part of the OPC party, so I cannot stop him from being elected PC leader of Ontario. & I refuse to buy an OPC membership (or ANY party membership) because I like being an independent. Where I'm not aligned with any one party. It goes against my principles (as an independent) to be a member of any party.

So, how is joining the OPC to oppose Doug Ford any worse than voting for John Tory to oppose Doug Ford? Inquiring minds want to know. Laughing

Debater

terrytowel wrote:

Prue said it is hard to predict the outcome of the leadership review given the opposing views inside and outside of Toronto.

“It’s hard to know. Outside of Toronto there is not much by way of hard feelings. Inside Toronto there is. There is no question. I know my own riding association is split on the issue but those who think that heads have to roll outweigh those who don’t,” he said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/11/14/andrea_horwaths_job_at_sta...

Some interesting reflections from Prue.  Since he's an NDP MPP who lost this past June, he's obviously someone who was close to what was going wrong in Toronto.

I think Horwath will survive her leadership review, but mainly because there isn't a clear alternative to her yet who could do better.

terrytowel

Michael Moriarity wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

I'm not part of the OPC party, so I cannot stop him from being elected PC leader of Ontario. & I refuse to buy an OPC membership (or ANY party membership) because I like being an independent. Where I'm not aligned with any one party. It goes against my principles (as an independent) to be a member of any party.

So, how is joining the OPC to oppose Doug Ford any worse than voting for John Tory to oppose Doug Ford? Inquiring minds want to know. Laughing

My original quote explains it all. I can't add much more than that, if you fail to understand.

terrytowel

On Friday Doug Ford was on Sun News and he said the first thing he would do if elected PC leader is reach out to the unions. he said the vast majority of union members are like him, fiscal conservatives, blue collar working folks.

He said 40% of his vote was from union members, and that 60% of union members don't want to be in a union at all.

So if Wynne and Ford going after the union vote, where does that leave Andrea?

nicky

There were many people who voted for the Fords as populist outsiders who would never vote for them as big C Conservatives, representing the ultimate establishment party.

Stockholm

terrytowel wrote:

On Friday Doug Ford was on Sun News and he said the first thing he would do if elected PC leader is reach out to the unions. he said the vast majority of union members are like him, fiscal conservatives, blue collar working folks.

I wonder how exactly Doug Ford proposes to "reach out" to unions?? His policy as a candidate for mayor was to contract out municipal jobs, cut wages and ATTACK unions wherever possible.

Rokossovsky

He means Teamsters and ILuNA, and other quasi-mafia outfits that will stand to benefit from contracting out and privatization, at the expense of our lovable fuzzy public sector unions like CUPE and OPSEU.

PrairieDemocrat15

terrytowel wrote:

He said 40% of his vote was from union members, and that 60% of union members don't want to be in a union at all.

Classic Ford. Where did he get those numbers? Does he have access to the election ballots?

Rokossovsky

Teamsters I think actually supported Ford in 2010, though I can't find that online anymore, I remember that is was so. If I am correct, GFL, the company that took over on garbage collection in west Toronto is a Teamsters unionized company.

Rokossovsky

Quote:
Doug Holyday was the mayor of Etobicoke pre-amalgamation. In 1995, he saw an opportunity to rewrite his municipality’s relationship with organized labour and designed and delivered a process that allows private contractors and unions to bid for the right to pick up his constituents’ trash, even offering up a performance bond—a significant chunk of dough—that would be forfeited in the event of service disruption. There hasn’t been a strike since. Holyday seems proud to note that a union—the Teamsters—won the initial seven-year contract in Etobicoke, so the process wasn’t about being anti-union.

Toronto Life

Stockholm

The private company GFL that collects garbage west of Yonge is most definitely NOT unionized. They pay the minimum wage. The whole point of contracting out is to get rid of unions and pay workers the minimum wage, otherwise there would be no point in doing it

terrytowel

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

He said 40% of his vote was from union members, and that 60% of union members don't want to be in a union at all.

Classic Ford. Where did he get those numbers? Does he have access to the election ballots?

Ford says it is the union leaders that support the NDP. But the vast majority of union members support fiscal conservative policies, ones that he would preach.

Stockholm

Hudak preached "fiscal conservative" policies - where did it get him? The vast majority of money that governments spend go to wages for their own employees. If you want to be "fiscally conservative" and do it the rightwing way - you have to take a sledge hammer to workers pay and you have to attack unions and you have to attack union MEMBERS by slashing their wages or by laying them off en masse.

IF Doug Ford is foolish enough to run for the Ontario PC leadership, i would be VERY curious to see what his platform would be? Would he propose drastic cuts to health care and education? Would he propose eliminating social assistance? What exactly would a Ford policy book look like at the provincial level? Hudak already tried getting people to vote to stop the gravy train provincually when he promised to fire 100,000 public sector workers - where did it get him? 

Rokossovsky

Stockholm wrote:
The private company GFL that collects garbage west of Yonge is most definitely NOT unionized. They pay the minimum wage. The whole point of contracting out is to get rid of unions and pay workers the minimum wage, otherwise there would be no point in doing it

That's not true. Paying minimum wage would conflict with the Cities "fair wage" policy. Not only that no one would do it.

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

terrytowel wrote:

On Friday Doug Ford was on Sun News and he said..... he said the vast majority of union members are like him, fiscal conservatives, blue collar working folks.

 

What a joke. Since when was Doug Ford ever a "blue collar worker," unless allegedly running drugs in Etobicoke back in the '80's counts?

 

Stockholm

Rokossovsky wrote:

Stockholm wrote:
The private company GFL that collects garbage west of Yonge is most definitely NOT unionized. They pay the minimum wage. The whole point of contracting out is to get rid of unions and pay workers the minimum wage, otherwise there would be no point in doing it

That's not true. Paying minimum wage would conflict with the Cities "fair wage" policy. Not only that no one would do it.

I meant they pay the minimum wage allowed under the "Fair Wage" policy...whihc is about $8 per hour LESS than what unionized city employees make when they collect garbage.

Incidentally, one of the things Ford promised when he was running for mayor in 2010 was to scrap the "fair wages" policy so that the city would be able to pay people the minimum wage instead of being stuck being forced to pay the "fair wage" of something like $16/hour. The only reason Ford didn't get rid of the fair wages policy was that he didn't have the votes on council to do it. I wonder if Doug Ford will propose province-wide legislation barring municipalities from paying anyone more than the minimum wage? Sounds like a good way to get unionized workers to vote for him. 

terrytowel

At the NDP convention NDP MPP Peter Tabuns was on-stage and told delegates that Doug Ford was thinking of running for PC Leader.

The whole room applauded and cheered.

Later on Sun News Doug Ford was asked about that, and he said that it was 'nervous' applause.

Rokossovsky

You jealous that Tabuns got to troll the NDP convention and you didn't?

terrytowel

Rokossovsky wrote:

You jealous that Tabuns got to troll the NDP convention and you didn't?

No because I have stage fright

Stockholm

terrytowel wrote:

At the NDP convention NDP MPP Peter Tabuns was on-stage and told delegates that Doug Ford was thinking of running for PC Leader.

The whole room applauded and cheered.

Obviously NDP delegates know that the mere entry of Doug Ford into the PC leadership race would be toxic to the whole contest and make that party look foolish - good for the NDP. They also know that if Ford somehopw won the PC leadership it would blow up that party and make them more unelectable than ever - also good for the NDP.

YOu heard applause and cheers in a spirit of "schadenfreude" over the looming cataclysm for the Ontario PCs

terrytowel

You do realize that Ford Nation is made up of about 25% of support from committed NDP voters.

Stockholm

Yeah so what? Ford Nation (if that is what we call people who voted for Doug Ford) is also made up of large numbers of people who voted Liberal and PC. But I doubt would vote for him at the provincial level with the Conservative party name attached to him.

Debater

Doug Ford said today that he 'may' make a decision next week as to whether he will run for the PC leadership.

Stockholm

If Doug Ford really thinks he can appeal to blue collar union members then he MUST run for the PCs as a parachute candidate in Sudbury! Let him sink or swim!

terrytowel

By coincidence the first PC leaders debate will take place this weekend in Sudbury

ctrl190

Oh boy.

David Rider on Twitter:

BREAKING: Doug Ford tells me he will announce tomorrow at 11 a.m. at Deco if he plans to seek the leadership of the @OntarioPCParty

Rokossovsky

Stockholm wrote:
If Doug Ford really thinks he can appeal to blue collar union members then he MUST run for the PCs as a parachute candidate in Sudbury! Let him sink or swim!

I know a lot of blue collar workers who think the Ford's are awesome.

terrytowel

Rokossovsky wrote:

Stockholm wrote:
If Doug Ford really thinks he can appeal to blue collar union members then he MUST run for the PCs as a parachute candidate in Sudbury! Let him sink or swim!

I know a lot of blue collar workers who think the Ford's are awesome.

Which is why I have said Doug being PC leader will be such a disaster for the NDP

Rokossovsky

No. Because there are plenty of blue collar workers who support the NDP. The idea that the "entire" working class supports "the left" is a fallacy, and it has never been so.

Debater

Doug Ford expected to announce provincial Tory leadership bid

Wednesday, Nov. 26 2014

Doug Ford, who stepped into the Toronto mayoral race for his ailing brother, could be about to jump into another contest – this one for the leadership of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives.

Mr. Ford will make his intentions public at a news conference Thursday morning at the offices of the family business, Deco Labels and Tags. Senior Tory insiders said Wednesday they expected Mr. Ford to jump into the race, but none had direct knowledge of his plans.

“I have a quick little speech; it won’t take long,” Mr. Ford said late Wednesday when contacted by The Globe and Mail. He declined to discuss the contents of his message. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” he said.

Mr. Ford, who is days way from ending his term as a Toronto city councillor, has long mused about moving to provincial politics. After coming second to John Tory in the race for Toronto mayor, he said he was considering a bid for the provincial leadership.

---

More:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com//news/national/doug-ford-expected-to-anno...

ctrl190

Ford says he's not running, endorses Christine Elliot. 

Stockholm

Its a sad day for terrytowel - Doug Ford is NOT running!

terrytowel

Stockholm wrote:

Its a sad day for terrytowel - Doug Ford is NOT running!

Actually I'm very happy. I've had ENOUGH of the Fords, and wouldn't want them to go province wide. Plus a PC lead by Ford would be a disaster for the NDP.

Now The dippers can breath a sigh of relief.

Debater

Looks like Doug Ford played the media, kind of like NDP MP Peter Stoffer last month.  Calls a press conference to announce something which is very anti-climatic!

The press wondered if Stoffer was retiring, but it turned out just to be a boring announcement that he was running again, and now Ford calls a press conference to announce he is not running!

Sineed

I think Doug was planning to run.

Here's how I think it played out: Rob is entering his fifth round of chemo for a tumour that was originally judged to be responsive to chemotherapy, but in fact is not shrinking. His condition is dire, and he is not going to be able to continue as counsellor for Ward 2. He will have to step aside, Doug will win the byelection handily, and end up counsellor of Ward 2 before the end of 2015.

It's more of a sure thing; after all, Doug has won exactly zero elections outside Ford Nation. Conversely, his people would have told him his leadership bid was a long shot at best.

For those of us in Toronto, the Ford Family Circus won't be leaving town for a few years yet.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

terrytowel wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

Its a sad day for terrytowel - Doug Ford is NOT running!

Actually I'm very happy. I've had ENOUGH of the Fords, and wouldn't want them to go province wide. Plus a PC lead by Ford would be a disaster for the NDP.

Now The dippers can breath a sigh of relief.

So, can you maybe, just maybe, stop ranting about the Fords since they are now irrelevant?

You've been on a tear about the guy for months now, going so far as to announce that you were going to vote(and shrilly demanding that everybody else on the left join you in voting for)a guy who AGREES with the Fords on everything, but is just nicer about his ugliness.  What you achieved by that was helping to give Toronto a mayor who will be better at getting the agenda of the Fords through council than the Fords themselves ever would have been.

And I strongly suspect that, if Ford had defied the laws of physics and somehow won the Ontario PC leadership, you'd then have been incessantly spamming the message that the only way to stop Ford was to re-elect the Ontario Liberals.

It's been irritating, it's been irrational-sounding at times, and it's pretty much turned everyone else here against you...so please, in the name of whatever drives you, can you please give the Fordsteria a rest?

Rokossovsky

nicky

Another factor in the decision may have been the financial health of the family business, Deco Labels and Tags,
Doug had been the president and by all accounts expanded the business substantially. When he went into politics, according to a story in the Globe, just before the election, the day to day management was taken over by brother Randy who ran things into the ground.
The real source of Ford Nation is money and Doug may just want to protect that flank by taking over the business again.

Debater

Sineed wrote:

Here's how I think it played out: Rob is entering his fifth round of chemo for a tumour that was originally judged to be responsive to chemotherapy, but in fact is not shrinking. His condition is dire, and he is not going to be able to continue as counsellor for Ward 2. He will have to step aside, Doug will win the byelection handily, and end up counsellor of Ward 2 before the end of 2015.

I agree.  There's a strong chance that Rob Ford's cancer will be terminal if something doesn't improve soon.  One doesn't have to be a medical doctor to figure out that if someone is undergoing multiple rounds of chemotherapy without it having much effect, the chances of survival are not good.

As much as I dislike Rob Ford, this isn't the way I wanted it to end.  I wanted him to remain healthy, stay in the Mayoral race, and then go on to be defeated so Toronto could move on.  I wanted him to be defeated politically, not to get cancer.

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