Would a PC party led by Doug Ford reduce the NDP to non-party status in 2018?

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Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Can you really be mad at us for voting for Ford when our so called NDP councillors don't give a fuck about our problems?

Did "youngsocialist" ever come back to tell us how Ford gave a fuck about his/her problems?

Quote:
who is too busy eating at fancy restaurants

Ah.  The NDP is too busy "eating at fancy restaurants".  "youngsocialist" doubled down on the usual "latte" comment or "Champagne" comment.  Frankly, I'm predicting "troll" here, but "youngsocialist" is certainly free to explain his/her interest in voting far-right because the NDP councillors are eating risotto.

I have to wonder if this young socialist ever asked Ford for more bike lanes, and what the response was from a Real Man who eats at Real Jerk.

Pogo Pogo's picture

When was that poll taken?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Can you really be mad at us for voting for Ford when our so called NDP councillors don't give a fuck about our problems?

Did "youngsocialist" ever come back to tell us how Ford gave a fuck about his/her problems?

Quote:
who is too busy eating at fancy restaurants

Ah.  The NDP is too busy "eating at fancy restaurants".  "youngsocialist" doubled down on the usual "latte" comment or "Champagne" comment.  Frankly, I'm predicting "troll" here, but "youngsocialist" is certainly free to explain his/her interest in voting far-right because the NDP councillors are eating risotto.

I have to wonder if this young socialist ever asked Ford for more bike lanes, and what the response was from a Real Man who eats at Real Jerk.

Or, for that matter, if "youngsocialist" WAS young or in any sense a socialist.  Could've been one of the Fords trolling us themselves, for all we know.

SeekingAPolitic...

Ciabatta2 wrote:

Ford doesn't have as wide support as terrytowel says he does, but he's still terrible for NDP prospects as he nibbles their lunch on both sides.

The idea of Ford remixed is even more "scary" than Hudak, which will direct marginal NDP voters to the Liberals.  Ford also siphons just enough NDP support in the southern Golden Horseshoe, SW Ontario and bits of the north to bring the Liberals into play in some of NDP ridings.

Brown was an excellent PC leader for the NDP because his messages were bland, his appeal shallow, and his persona was inauthentic.

Fedeli was an ok leader for NDP prospects as he is relatively unknown and uninteresting. 

Caroline Mulroney would be fantastic for NDP prospects as she conflicts the most with Wynne, and provides the most contrast to Horwath.

Very insightful of scray Ford will do NDP vote.  I think if Ford wins leadership of the party then Liberals will correctly assume that can only win by turning the NDP into a political corpse. 

1.  Scare the pants of people of the province about Fords plan for the province.  

2.  Start messaging that only Liberals can save the province from ford.  And paint the liberals are a truly progressive party. 

Scare the province and pummel the NDP and hope voters drift in Liberal waiting hands.  If I ran the Lib machine I try that.

 

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:
  Right now, voting NDP could mean "squandering" your one vote on a party that might not win.

Really, though, I'm only suggesting that there's a difference between voting for what you want and voting against what you don't want.

The squandering votes thing seems to be solely an NDP or NDP supporter concern or theory. Most people do not consider their vote wasted just because the person they voted for didn't win. 

As Ken says: "And it doesn't matter if Justin advocated it or not.  No Liberal leader ever actually does."

Right, so the notion that large numbers of people are voting strategically is just an NDP theory.

The thing is most people do not hate or fear the Conservatives the way NDPers do. They were not "afraid" of another Conservative win so there was no reason to vote "strategically".  Conservatives don't vote Liberal out of fear of the NDP winning even in seats where the NDP does have a good chance of winning. Most people are voting for their least bad choice.

The NDP aren't "doing great" in polls between elections. People don't answer polls strategically. They can tell the pollster the party they really support. 

What evidence is there that the NDP loses because people vote strategically under FPTP?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Pondering wrote:

The thing is most people do not hate or fear the Conservatives the way NDPers do.

This is massively untrue. Not only do NDPers NOT fear the Conservatives but a a lot or vast majority of them would VOTE Conservative if they knew they couldn't get their way.

If you don't believe me,take the time read most posts in current and past threads. This is the one thing I can't figure out. It's highly illogical logic. These NDPers are very schizophrenic. They scream at the top of a mountain how socialist and/or progresssive.they are always trying to prove themselves the true progressive of all progressives. But somehow,if they were to flip their vote,they'd hand it to a regressive bat shit crazy union-busting,welfare state killing,backward minded,authoritarian, sociopathic mob who hate these NDPers and everything they stand for. But I guess none of that is a problem when the reality is they're hypocrites and completely full of shit.

The real party most NDPers fear are the Liberals. They'd happily cut off their noses to spite their faces than vote red,no matter how superior they prove to be next to the Conservatives particularly in the last 30 something years.

 

Pondering

SeekingAPoliticalHome wrote:

2.  Start messaging that only Liberals can save the province from ford.  And paint the liberals are a truly progressive party. 

Scare the province and pummel the NDP and hope voters drift in Liberal waiting hands.  If I ran the Lib machine I try that.

Non-NDP people are not that afraid of the Conservatives even led by Doug Ford. Promoting strategic voting means admitting your party can't win on merit. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
People don't answer polls strategically. They can tell the pollster the party they really support.

They do tend to answer them aspirationally, though.  And this isn't at all exclusive to Canadian Federal election polls.

If you ask people how much they like kale and broccoli and lentils, the responses you'll get won't jibe with sales of kale and broccoli and lentils, is all I'm saying.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Pondering wrote:

SeekingAPoliticalHome wrote:

2.  Start messaging that only Liberals can save the province from ford.  And paint the liberals are a truly progressive party. 

Scare the province and pummel the NDP and hope voters drift in Liberal waiting hands.  If I ran the Lib machine I try that.

Non-NDP people are not that afraid of the Conservatives even led by Doug Ford. Promoting strategic voting means admitting your party can't win on merit. 

And it also means admitting that you believe your non-NDP party is simply ENTITLED to the votes of every non-Conservative voter, now and for the rest of eternity.  And being willing to create a new "extreme menace" every few years to justify that sense of electoral entitlement.  Once the last Ford is gone, they'll find another menace.  And another. AND another...over and over for the rest of bloody eternity.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And it also means admitting that you believe your non-NDP party is simply ENTITLED to the votes of every non-Conservative voter, now and for the rest of eternity.

If that party phones it in, because they feel entitled to support but don't get it, we should expect a pretty legendary electoral comeuppance, yes?  Is that your prediction?  Who'll grab the brass ring?

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:

Pondering wrote:

SeekingAPoliticalHome wrote:

2.  Start messaging that only Liberals can save the province from ford.  And paint the liberals are a truly progressive party. 

Scare the province and pummel the NDP and hope voters drift in Liberal waiting hands.  If I ran the Lib machine I try that.

Non-NDP people are not that afraid of the Conservatives even led by Doug Ford. Promoting strategic voting means admitting your party can't win on merit. 

And it also means admitting that you believe your non-NDP party is simply ENTITLED to the votes of every non-Conservative voter, now and for the rest of eternity.  And being willing to create a new "extreme menace" every few years to justify that sense of electoral entitlement.  Once the last Ford is gone, they'll find another menace.  And another. AND another...over and over for the rest of bloody eternity.

I'm not supporting them so they aren't "mine".  I'm saying the Liberals will not resort to promoting strategic voting. I can't see how that expresses entitlement. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Pondering wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Pondering wrote:

SeekingAPoliticalHome wrote:

2.  Start messaging that only Liberals can save the province from ford.  And paint the liberals are a truly progressive party. 

Scare the province and pummel the NDP and hope voters drift in Liberal waiting hands.  If I ran the Lib machine I try that.

Non-NDP people are not that afraid of the Conservatives even led by Doug Ford. Promoting strategic voting means admitting your party can't win on merit. 

And it also means admitting that you believe your non-NDP party is simply ENTITLED to the votes of every non-Conservative voter, now and for the rest of eternity.  And being willing to create a new "extreme menace" every few years to justify that sense of electoral entitlement.  Once the last Ford is gone, they'll find another menace.  And another. AND another...over and over for the rest of bloody eternity.

I'm not supporting them so they aren't "mine".  I'm saying the Liberals will not resort to promoting strategic voting. I can't see how that expresses entitlement. 

To clarify, I wasn't saying that YOU were supporting them-I was directing that comment to the "strategic voting" crowd.

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:
To clarify, I wasn't saying that YOU were supporting them-I was directing that comment to the "strategic voting" crowd.

I see, thanks. I don't think near as much strategic voting goes on as some people seem to think.

quizzical

alan smithee wrote:

Pondering wrote:

The thing is most people do not hate or fear the Conservatives the way NDPers do.

This is massively untrue. Not only do NDPers NOT fear the Conservatives but a a lot or vast majority of them would VOTE Conservative if they knew they couldn't get their way.

If you don't believe me,take the time read most posts in current and past threads. This is the one thing I can't figure out. It's highly illogical logic. These NDPers are very schizophrenic. They scream at the top of a mountain how socialist and/or progresssive.they are always trying to prove themselves the true progressive of all progressives. But somehow,if they were to flip their vote,they'd hand it to a regressive bat shit crazy union-busting,welfare state killing,backward minded,authoritarian, sociopathic mob who hate these NDPers and everything they stand for. But I guess none of that is a problem when the reality is they're hypocrites and completely full of shit.

The real party most NDPers fear are the Liberals. They'd happily cut off their noses to spite their faces than vote red,no matter how superior they prove to be next to the Conservatives particularly in the last 30 something years.

 

https://ilwu.ca/ilwu-protest-the-upcoming-changes-to-cabotage-february-2...

huh again i'm proven right.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quizzical wrote:

https://ilwu.ca/ilwu-protest-the-upcoming-changes-to-cabotage-february-2...

huh again i'm proven right.

Unfortunately  the page can't be found. Could you please provide it again and double check if the link is working?

I'd like to read it.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

That looks like a link from a differerent thread. I was thinking about starting a new thread on the issue.

robbie_dee

I actually think Andrea Horwath might do pretty well in a head-to-head-to-head contest with the Ford-led PCs and the Wynne-led Liberals. Among other things, she'd be the only major party leader from outside of Toronto. She's a known commodity. She has a bit of the "common touch" and her working class bona fides are certainly solid. I was never a big fan (I supported someone else for leader in 2009 and I thought she should have stepped down after 2014) but I am reconsidering my views in light of current political reality. I'm certainly more comfortable with her in this scenario than, say, Tabuns. I know in the last couple of weeks of the Toronto mayoral election, many "progressive" voters stampeded from Chow to Tory to stop Ford. But Tory wasn't carrying the baggage of fifteen years in government in the face of voters' clear desire for change. Who knows, maybe this time the strategic voting trend will go in the other direction?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Unfortunately  the page can't be found. Could you please provide it again and double check if the link is working?

I'd like to read it.

There's an extra character - a right square bracket -- at the end of that URI.  Strip it, and you're in.

https://ilwu.ca/ilwu-protest-the-upcoming-changes-to-cabotage-february-2...

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It's just as possible that you'd have Liberal voters stampeding to the NDP to stop Ford(if they DID make him leader) as it would be that you'd have NDP voters stampeding to the Liberals.

Voting NDP could be seen, in fact as the only way to stop Ford AND vote against a discredited governing party.

Pondering

robbie_dee wrote:

I actually think Andrea Horwath might do pretty well in a head-to-head-to-head contest with the Ford-led PCs and the Wynne-led Liberals. Among other things, she'd be the only major party leader from outside of Toronto. She's a known commodity. She has a bit of the "common touch" and her working class bona fides are certainly solid. I was never a big fan (I supported someone else for leader in 2009 and I thought she should have stepped down after 2014) but I am reconsidering my views in light of current political reality. I'm certainly more comfortable with her in this scenario than, say, Tabuns. I know in the last couple of weeks of the Toronto mayoral election, many "progressive" voters stampeded from Chow to Tory to stop Ford. But Tory wasn't carrying the baggage of fifteen years in government in the face of voters' clear desire for change. Who knows, maybe this time the strategic voting trend will go in the other direction?

I think you could be right. The Liberal government is very long in the tooth and has had some expensive scandals.  The NDP might at least get enough votes to hold whomever wins to a minority government. 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

quizzical wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Pondering wrote:

The thing is most people do not hate or fear the Conservatives the way NDPers do.

This is massively untrue. Not only do NDPers NOT fear the Conservatives but a a lot or vast majority of them would VOTE Conservative if they knew they couldn't get their way.

If you don't believe me,take the time read most posts in current and past threads. This is the one thing I can't figure out. It's highly illogical logic. These NDPers are very schizophrenic. They scream at the top of a mountain how socialist and/or progresssive.they are always trying to prove themselves the true progressive of all progressives. But somehow,if they were to flip their vote,they'd hand it to a regressive bat shit crazy union-busting,welfare state killing,backward minded,authoritarian, sociopathic mob who hate these NDPers and everything they stand for. But I guess none of that is a problem when the reality is they're hypocrites and completely full of shit.

The real party most NDPers fear are the Liberals. They'd happily cut off their noses to spite their faces than vote red,no matter how superior they prove to be next to the Conservatives particularly in the last 30 something years.

 

https://ilwu.ca/ilwu-protest-the-upcoming-changes-to-cabotage-february-2...

huh again i'm proven right.

Thanks for using "schizophrenic" to describe "hypocritical" or "duplicitous", and continuing the demonization of people with severe mental illness.

You can swear all you like at me. Water off a duck's back.

Schizophrenia is FUCKING TORTURE. It is a SEVERE emotional disorder, and it has nothing to do with hypocrisy or being two-faced. I have called out major journalists on this bullshit by e-mail and they have all written back with contrition. You are no better than them.

quizzical

am not sure wtf you are talking about progressive.

i never swore at you not did any of the things you are yelling about.

my huh.....comment was in response to Alan Smithers post.

i don't even know what that link is. it was part of the quote from Alan's post.

rabble doesn't work so well for me on the android phone i have.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Quiz, I think he was reacting to Alan Smithee and not you.

 

i hear a lot of journalists and writers on CBC from time to time refer to a dichotomy of anything as being schizophrenic. An old antiquated assumption of schizophrenia is that it is about having a split mind.

This is factually inaccurate and people need to stop using this term in this way because it is false and it demeans people who have the illness.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

progressive17 wrote:

quizzical wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Pondering wrote:

The thing is most people do not hate or fear the Conservatives the way NDPers do.

This is massively untrue. Not only do NDPers NOT fear the Conservatives but a a lot or vast majority of them would VOTE Conservative if they knew they couldn't get their way.

If you don't believe me,take the time read most posts in current and past threads. This is the one thing I can't figure out. It's highly illogical logic. These NDPers are very schizophrenic. They scream at the top of a mountain how socialist and/or progresssive.they are always trying to prove themselves the true progressive of all progressives. But somehow,if they were to flip their vote,they'd hand it to a regressive bat shit crazy union-busting,welfare state killing,backward minded,authoritarian, sociopathic mob who hate these NDPers and everything they stand for. But I guess none of that is a problem when the reality is they're hypocrites and completely full of shit.

The real party most NDPers fear are the Liberals. They'd happily cut off their noses to spite their faces than vote red,no matter how superior they prove to be next to the Conservatives particularly in the last 30 something years.

 

https://ilwu.ca/ilwu-protest-the-upcoming-changes-to-cabotage-february-2...

huh again i'm proven right.

Thanks for using "schizophrenic" to describe "hypocritical" or "duplicitous", and continuing the demonization of people with severe mental illness.

You can swear all you like at me. Water off a duck's back.

Schizophrenia is FUCKING TORTURE. It is a SEVERE emotional disorder, and it has nothing to do with hypocrisy or being two-faced. I have called out major journalists on this bullshit by e-mail and they have all written back with contrition. You are no better than them.

I'm schizophrenic. I asppreciate your outrage. But relax.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Never mind Doug Ford,make way for Caroline Mulroney. The new PC golden candidate. A lot of people think her name brand will win her the party nomination and general election. But there are a few wrinkles in this toilet tissue.

First of all,besides name recognition,nobody has any idea of what kind of policies she supports. Unlike Justin Trudeau who was a sitting MP for years before running and winning both the Liberal nomination and 2015 election,she iss a plitical nobody whose name may not be very popular in Ontario.

Caroline has absolutely no political experience and she already seems to be a shameless panderer as she outed herself as an NFL fan. Clearly trying to connect with the province's lowest common dominators. Beer drinking, middle aged fanboys without a college education. She is also playing mum with simple platitudes when directly asked about her policy plans.

She's also been living and working in the US for the past 20 years,questions about her citizenship,whether she has dual citizenship. Does she even have a permanent Ontario home?

And as for the family name. Like Trudeau,her name is polarizing but unlike Trudeau whose father died years before he entered politics,she's going to have Daddy (Jay Leno chin) Brian chiming in and helping her campaign which could spectacularly backfire.

I don't know if Ontarians are interested in an inexperienced, American,pandering nepotist product who has so far only provided platitudes when pressed for answers about her politics and plans to ' Make it happen' in Ontario.

She has just over 120 days to prepare herself and prove that she has the aptitude to lead the province being completely inexperienced politically. Is that enough time for her to do so?

Frankly,she should run as an MPP and be elected somewhere in Ontario and spend a few years getting experience and being familiar with Ontarians. It's unlikely that Daddy will be enough to carry her to any political success.

Some op-eds I have read bring up Wynne's age as an advantage for Mulroney. Very weak arguement. But I can see her appearing on eTalk a few times to promote herself . Standing next to Ben,she may come off as a complete joke.

So having said all that,I've changed my mind. Doug Ford does have a chance of winning the nomination. Voters most likely will choose experience over a candidate who describes herself as an NFL fan and a hockey mom (hello,Sarah Palin)

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Caroline Mulroney is an NFL fan, as opposed to being a CFL fan?  You'd think she'd want to be seen as rooting for the Argos or the Tiger Cats or the Redblacks(or maybe all three).

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Doug Ford does have a chance of winning the nomination. Voters most likely will choose experience over a candidate who describes herself as an NFL fan and a hockey mom (hello,Sarah Palin)

Doug's experience seems limited to taking over his brother's council seat.  That's not a particularly fat resume.

Which isn't to say he couldn't win.  But if he does, it won't be because of his experience.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Doug's experience seems limited to taking over his brother's council seat.  That's not a particularly fat resume.

Which isn't to say he couldn't win.  But if he does, it won't be because of his experience.

You're right. He was just a city counsellor. But that's still a lot more experience than Mulroney has in politics.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Caroline Mulroney is an NFL fan, as opposed to being a CFL fan?  You'd think she'd want to be seen as rooting for the Argos or the Tiger Cats or the Redblacks(or maybe all three).

 

I know right? I think it just proves that she's lived in the US too long and forgot Canada has its own football league.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Either that or she has astute political handlers who know that most Canadian sports fans prefer the NFL to the quaint CFL. 

The CFL got its butt kicked on TV by the NFL last Sunday.

The Montreal Alouettes game against the Ottawa Redblacks started at 1 p.m. EST on Sunday, meaning it went head-to-head with early NFL games on CTV. The results weren’t pretty.

The CFL game drew an average audience of 190,000 on TSN while the NFL contest registered 461,000. The Toronto Blue Jays, who started just after 2 p.m. EST, drew an average audience of 516,000 – despite the team being more or less out of playoff contention.

In fact, the CFL game was the 10th most watched sports broadcast on English-language television – the numbers here don’t reflect RDS – on Sunday. More people watched NASCAR (203,000), Formula One (223,000) and the NHL pre-season game (313,000).

http://3downnation.com/2017/09/21/tv-rating-sunday-cfl-game-gets-trounce...

Mighty Middle Mighty Middle's picture

Some Ontario Conservatives are giving Doug Ford serious consideration

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/02/12/ford-nation-breaks-ground-ottawa-bubble/

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