An Objection

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Slumberjack
An Objection

Why Do I Get Shit for Calling the "Police" SCUM?

 

Quote:
....E.Tamaran. Yes, you won't be posting on babble for a while.

I'd like to take this opportunity to voice my objection to the suspension of E.Tamaran.  I hereby object.  Furthermore, I call for the suspension to be lifted without delay.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Seconded, considering the way many are just "warned", usually of the dominant discourse.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yeah. I don't really get it. One poster has been running around calling Julian Assange's girlfriends (lovers, consorts) etc. "hos", associating them with "groupies" and so on, yet, E Tamaran is banned. I don't get it. I also think its a bad precedent that people get busted out when they make challenges to moderators decisions.

Slumberjack

It's not the first time that someone from non-dominant communities has found themselves being jettisoned for not applying themselves to the issues at hand with the sort of discourse that meets with the approval of the dominant representatives.

milo204

my preference would be that no one can be banned or censored here.  i think babblers can handle any arguments that might pop up here with logic and facts.  Censorship just doesn't work, doesn't achieve anything and can't be enforced without stifling debate.

the one exception: spam/ads

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hi SJ et al. Thanks for your comments.

As you know, E. Tamaran was not suspended for "making challenges to the moderators' decisions" or for "not applying [himself] to the issues at hand with the sort of discourse that meets with the approval of the dominant representatives." He was suspended for repeatedly--repeatedly--abusing the moderators (who supported his position) and misrepresenting their opinion to the point where it was determined that his only motivation for doing so was to pick fights and cause enormous arguments. I can think of no babbler who was given as much leeway or good faith as E. Tamaran and he took every opportunity to spurn it and hold it in contempt.

I'm not happy about it. Maysie is not happy about it. We believe it speaks to a larger problem on babble (and, of course, in Canada) where male FN and POCs simply don't do well, are hurt in some way or another by this community, and end up leaving one way or another. Frankly, it sucks. Maysie and I tried our best, but perhaps we're simply not equipped (or compensated) for the amount of work and training it would take to create a space so at odds with mainstream Canadian culture, even, at times, at odds with majority opinion here on babble. We are certainly not equipped to do it when the one we are trying to protect is so abusive and destructive to our task and desire.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

You know you're definitely not equipped to do it when you start trying to police the vocabulary used by progressive people to express their indignation at the oppressive conduct of the police.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Thanks for popping by, Spector. Your charming observations are as useful as ever. Come back any time.

jrootham

Workplace health and safety issue.  Tamaran generated way too much crap about the moderators.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

There obviously isn't any point in discussing this.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Irrelevant. That is the fault of the board editorial staff, given that the board editorial staff enforced a completely arbitrary rule, practically for the sole purpose of curtailing the rights of one particular board member to post thread titles that suited his world view.

The moderators are the ones who are taking the shit for it. It is not E. Tamaran's fault.

The fact is that the board failed to show good faith on point about labeling police in thread titles, and came up with no reasonable objection on this point. Whatever might be said about the good-faith of the moderators to oppose that decision, the fact is that the decision was made, and it was made entirely on the grounds of authority, and without a reasoned argument to support it based on the political principles that the board professes. In the light of this the moderators have found themselves between a rock and hard place, being forced to rule on a point to which they did not agree.

But that is entirely separate from the moderators as persons of good faith. The board made this decision, and as the public face of the board staff, they have ended up on the wrong side of the equation.

E. Tamaran's ongoing attacks against the board on this point are entirely justified and are directed at the boards, entirely muddled and unprincipled decision on this matter. The fall out is an antagonistic relationship with E. Tamaran, and in good faith, the moderators should reinstate his account, regardless of the fact that this point is causing arguments and disarray.

I am glad it is. It should. It was a rotten decision.

Slumberjack

Catchfire wrote:
  He was suspended for repeatedly--repeatedly--abusing the moderators (who supported his position) and misrepresenting their opinion to the point where it was determined that his only motivation for doing so was to pick fights and cause enormous arguments.

There have been arguments going on here for years, nearly on a daily basis.  What is different in this case appears to involve the nature of the terminology used to protest against oppression, and the manner of its expression.  I believe it is a matter of speculation to suggest that picking fights was his sole motivation.  It's the difference between the type of direct bluntness that self described urbane communities are rarely prepared to absorb and understand, because it carries with it the potential to interrupt the established gentrification processes, and the accepted discourse and arguments by which all other presentations are measured against.

Unionist

Cueball, what do you think of my latest plan? I'm going to trawl the MSM for articles about Afghanistan; open new threads entitled:

Quote:
All members of the Canadian Forces are subhuman vermin that deserve to be impaled on the nearest dinner fork - installment 97

- then go munch popcorn while the fur flies? And when the mods try to suggest that I make a more positive contribution to the board, I accuse them of being anti-semitic deep-cover agents of NATO? And I don't let up until they scream and howl?

Let's start a new board where instead of political discussion, we try to grind each other down with phony guilt until we are dead.

And where discussions about any real movement - real struggle - real life - is utterly banned, because it may interfere with internecine warfare and actually elicit some interest and unity?

Slumberjack wrote:
I believe it is a matter of speculation to suggest that picking fights was his sole motivation.

And I believe that charitable and generous interpretations of that nature are entirely appropriate during the Christian holiday season.

 

Slumberjack

Try not to get too carried away in agreement with this decision Unionist.  How about instead we just put you down in favour of the suspension, and any temporary or permanent continuance?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Unionist wrote:

Cueball, what do you think of my latest plan? I'm going to trawl the MSM for articles about Afghanistan; open new threads entitled:

Quote:
All members of the Canadian Forces are subhuman vermin that deserve to be impaled on the nearest dinner fork - installment 97

My plan would be to say that the debate about pigs in thread titles is over. I would then say that Caissa should be warned to stop trolling threads with needling comments where Tamaran makes statements referring to the police as pigs, because the debate about thread titles is over, and it has been established that using "pigs" in thread titles is disallowed, but that it is fine in thread content, and so therefore Caissa can stop making his needling trolling remarks.

That would be my solution. Its quite obvious that Caissa is just as much an overt particpant in these arguments and that he is actively trolling those threads with his constant attempts to derail them into this off-topic discussion about "form".

Slumberjack

Sounds more reasonable than the one sided solution currently in progress.

George Victor

Keeping in mind that "charitable and generous interpretations... are entirely appropriate during the Christian holiday season," I'll support U's opinion on this. And someday he may, in turn, recognize the social conditioning at work among all those verm...eh, uniforms. People are taught to generalize from the particular, but having created grand theory, tend to forget the individual and wind up leaving them out of the equation. The humanities can get all too messy that way. Apparently the American Anthropological Assoc. (or society) is now split in two over the issue of whether anthropology is "science." There is hope for them yet.

Fidel

Ya I'm wondering what purpose is served by sterilizing the language of the proles. I feel Tamaran's anger and resentment of a system that has worked very well for a few but not for the many. On the other end of it, I think we can say the same things as babblers like E.Tamaran want to express with more clinical precision and in language that makes as many people pay attention as possible. I think E.Tamaran has the ability to become an effective voice for downtrodden people. Practice makes perfect, and babble is a good place to practice the language of the left as any. I hope E. Tamaran is willing to accept creative criticisms from moderators and other babblers who know how to be effective when communicating.

Unionist

Slumberjack wrote:

Try not to get too carried away in agreement with this decision Unionist.  How about instead we just put you down in favour of the suspension, and any temporary or permanent continuance?

Because, Slumberjack, as opposed to you, I am against suspensions and bans, except for obvious trolls or spammers. [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/discussion-babble-proposal]Reme... I tried, and failed, to coordinate the achievement of a babble consensus and trial project along those lines. You, on the other hand, didn't "wish to legitimize this exercise by participating".

My belief is simple. When the mods give direction, that direction should not be defied - otherwise, might as well shut the board down. My belief number two is that anyone who harasses the mods in their workplace (as would be the case in my workplace) must stop, or be stopped. This is irrespective of how profoundly they feel about their own oppression, or how firmly they hold to certain speech patterns.

It's really not complicated, when you think about it. Framing this childishness in terms of oppression and colonialism and privilege really makes a mockery of how those phenomena really operate in our society, every day. And I'm really not that afraid to express my opinion in that regard.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

George Victor wrote:

Keeping in mind that "charitable and generous interpretations... are entirely appropriate during the Christian holiday season," I'll support U's opinion on this. And someday he may, in turn, recognize the social conditioning at work among all those verm...eh, uniforms. People are taught to generalize from the particular, but having created grand theory, tend to forget the individual and wind up leaving them out of the equation. The humanities can get all too messy that way. Apparently the American Anthropological Assoc. (or society) is now split in two over the issue of whether anthropology is "science." There is hope for them yet.

Oh. I totally agree with Unionist view. If he were to continuously bombard the site in the manner he suggests it would probably be a bit much. However, if he were an identified Afghan I would feel differently, and I would think that such expressions were a legitimate voicing of the oppressed against what must seem like an implacable and uniform enemy.

I don't for example, get overwrought when Palestinians make sweeping statements against Israeli's and the IDF, and don't object when they fail to find subtle nuances that you and I might feel are appropriate.

Unionist

Cueball wrote:
However, if he were an identified Afghan I would feel differently, and I would think that such expressions were a legitimate voicing of the oppressed against what must seem like an implacable and uniform enemy.

"Oh, that's just another example of Gentile privilege talking. Gentiles have all the time and freedom in the world to try and shut up Jews. They've been doing it since time immemorial. I suppose I should be "grateful" that I'm not just being locked up in some ghetto on the way to a death camp, eh? I have to face Gentile oppression everywhere I go, and now here I am on babble, which is supposed to be a safe place? Ha! Gentiles telling me what I can and can't say. Is it any accident that the mods just happen to be Gentile? There used to be some Jew connected with rabble, but where is she now? Huh? Eh? What? WTF. F. the Pigs!!! Quod erat demonstrandum."

I can say that cuz I'm a Jew, right?

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Are you serious U?

Unionist

No, RP. I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same
food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter
and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If
you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the
rest, we will resemble you in that.

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

 

 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

It's really not complicated, when you think about it. Framing this childishness in terms of oppression and colonialism and privilege really makes a mockery of how those phenomena really operate in our society, every day.

 

I don't see this as a colonial or oppression issue, nor do I think the ethnicity of any particular babbler is relevant here.

 

The issue seems to be one of appearances, since anyone is allowed to call cops whatever she wants within the threads. The prohibition against using all caps to howl "PIGS" and "SCUM" in thread titles isn't really about calling police unflattering names, but is rather about what doing so makes rabble.ca look like. If those who frequent this place want to be taken seriously by anyone, we should avoid looking as if our ability to discuss anything is no more sophisticated than the dialogue found in a street brawl.

al-Qa'bong

Unionist wrote:

No, RP. I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions.... 

I dunno man, that argument sounds kinda derivative.

Fidel

al-Qa'bong wrote:
If those who frequent this place want to be taken seriously by anyone, we should avoid looking as if our ability to discuss anything is no more sophisticated than the dialogue found in a street brawl.

Will the revolution stem from a well written turn of phrase, or will it be a series of street brawls? I tend to think the street brawlers will be more convincing.

Papal Bull

They will, but until the day that the denizens of this board become well attuned street brawlers outside of social constructs and raising shit daily, well written turns of phrase it shall be.

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

Will the revolution stem from a well written turn of phrase, or will it be a series of street brawls? I tend to think the street brawlers will be more convincing.

Yeah, Fidel. But the revolution will not take place on a discussion board. Every night I give thanks to Karl Marx and Frederick Engels that they did not write "FUCK THE FUCKING POOPY PANTS CAPITALIST SWINEBUCKETS!" on every page of the Manifesto. And yet, somehow, go figure, it managed to resonate among workers.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

edit:  Better to just conform I guess.  HA!  Same old, same old...I thought this site was supposed to be different than the MSM?  It's grown more like it, the longer I've been here.

 

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Unionist, just to be clear, I sure as shit ain't no gentile.

As you all were.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Unionist wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Will the revolution stem from a well written turn of phrase, or will it be a series of street brawls? I tend to think the street brawlers will be more convincing.

Yeah, Fidel. But the revolution will not take place on a discussion board. Every night I give thanks to Karl Marx and Frederick Engels that they did not write "FUCK THE FUCKING POOPY PANTS CAPITALIST SWINEBUCKETS!" on every page of the Manifesto. And yet, somehow, go figure, it managed to resonate among workers.

 

And NWA resonated with POC, go figure.  Different strokes for different folks.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiMtDhiJ2o

Unionist

RevolutionPlease wrote:

edit:  Better to just conform I guess.  HA!  Same old, same old...I thought this site was supposed to be different than the MSM?  It's grown more like it, the longer I've been here.

RP, when we seek to distinguish ourselves from the MSM, we should make sure it's on the front of ideology, aim, allies, interest, struggle, life - not introducing spelling errors or failing to balance our production budget or acting like pre-K kids at mealtime. How we distinguish ourselves is vital. And when someone comes on here with no particular deeply-held view, and no information to share from their lives or their community, ever, except some article cribbed from the MSM and some naughty word in capital letters, I need to ask you this: Is that really different from the MSM?

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I get what you're saying U.  I find your characterization of E.Tamaran unfortunate.  Yes, that is ideal if it were up to me.  I'm of the conditioning necessary for this framing of issues.  However, I come into contact with plenty of people who don't operate this way and perhaps represent why we have such a hard time in swaying them to our side.  To this day, I often have long conversations in my head why more Women, POC, FN's and more haven't found their way to this site or on the odd chance they delurked, failed to stick around.

 

You do the math.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I agree with Fidel that the mods have been fair but most only get a 1 day suspension.  Hell, Sven and Snert, even Fidel(hee-hee, my inspiration) get to keep coming back time after time.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Will the revolution stem from a well written turn of phrase, or will it be a series of street brawls? I tend to think the street brawlers will be more convincing.

Yeah, Fidel. But the revolution will not take place on a discussion board. Every night I give thanks to Karl Marx and Frederick Engels that they did not write "FUCK THE FUCKING POOPY PANTS CAPITALIST SWINEBUCKETS!" on every page of the Manifesto. And yet, somehow, go figure, it managed to resonate among workers.

Are we writing a manifesto or simply trying to attract as many people as possible to our way of thinking? I think it's a case of tolerating a range of views. I do think some of us have not walked very far in the moccasins of very many FN people. I've met a few and even worked with a few FNs in the city and in remote regions of Canada. Whitey has stolen a lot from them including their spirit. Perhaps E. Tamaran is expecting babble mods to do what so many other white hirelings of the establishment have done so often to native people. Discipline them for not conforming to white rules.

OTOH I think babble mods have tried to accommodate E. Tamaran's style of expression in a reasonable way. E. Tamaran has been cut considerable slack and yet continues to insist on pushing the issue. I don't know what else is at stake here. Who is advising babble mods on this issue, and what's been said about it?

Unionist

Maysie wrote:

Unionist, just to be clear, I sure as shit ain't no gentile.

As you all were.

Yay! I knew you were on my side! Now you understand why I have to get downright dirty and vulgar in order to express the very infernal depths of my personal oppression.

By the way, this thread is an excellent example of the kind of toxic provocation which serves no purpose except to get babblers fighting and insulting each other. As of right now, I intend to disrupt and sabotage this thread by pissing off all the PGs (privileged gentiles) via the publication of DELICIOUS JEWISH RECIPES - beginning with that all-time favourite, Gefilte Fish:

Quote:

Fish Balls:

  • I lb. fresh or frozen (thawed) haddock, co or similar firm white fillets
  • 1 medium onion
  • 1 carrot
  • 1 large egg
    1/2 tsp. salt
  • 1/2 tsp. freshly ground black pepper
  • 2 Tbsp. matzo meal

    Broth:

  • 1 medium onion, thinly sliced
  • 1 medium carrot, thinly sliced
  • 1/4 tsp. black pepper
  • 3 vegetable bouillon cubes

 

For the fish balls, coarsely cut fish, onion and carrot into chunks. Put in food processor fitted with steel blade and process until smooth.

Add the egg, salt, pepper and matzo meal and process until smooth. Set fish mixture aside while preparing the broth. Place all broth ingredients into a deep pot or Dutch oven. Bring to boil over a high heat; then lower heat and simmer until bouillon cubes dissolve.

With wet hands, shape fish mixture into 1 1/2 inch diameter balls. Gently drop the balls into the simmering broth. Cover and simmer for about 1 hour, occasionally turning balls with a spoon.

Remove the pot from the heat and let the balls cool in the broth. Use a slotted spoon to remove the balls. Strain broth through cheesecloth and pour over fish.

Makes about 12 balls.

Have a ball!

Maysie Maysie's picture

Gefilte fish is an abomination, Unionist.

You're banned.

Here's a recipe from my other people.

Quote:

Chinese Five Spice Chicken

Ingredients:
3 lbs chicken (any combination -- ideal if they are similar sizes -- works great for thighs, but I've done a variety)
1/3 cup soy sauce
1/4 cup oil, such as light olive oil or peanut oil
1 teaspoon garlic powder (or two garlic cloves, pressed)
2 teaspoons five spice powder
1 teaspoon grated fresh ginger
1 tablespoon dry sherry 

Preparation:
Combine all ingredients except chicken, and use as marinade. Then, marinate chicken at least an hour, but can marinate overnight. Bake in a 375 F. oven (baste once or twice), or grill, for about 45 minutes or until done.

 

Fidel

Refocusing on the thread topic of discussion fellow white people, this is about E. Tamaran. I've read some of E's threads, and the descriptions of police brutality are amazingly apartheid like as in really fucking awful. I think E. Tamaran might simply be seeking a little solidarity from the rest of us. Don't be afraid to pop into those threads once in a while and express your disapproval for the way Canada's so called police force conducts their bad selves. It's actually a fucking disgrace.

In solidarity with E. Tamaran

Unionist

There you have it - in two little posts, the reason why the Chinese people are flourishing and the Jews are suffering from LFS (Lousy Food syndrome).

Papal Bull

Find what is in fridge.

Pray you have olive oil.

Heat pan.

Shit, there is no olive oil.

Walk to friend's apartment up a floor

"Hey, Cathy, do you have any olive oil?"

"Oh, yeah, here - just make sure I get it back before 6"

"Thanks!"

Well, the pan is smoking a bit...must've been some muck on the element...

Put oil in pan, be careful, olive oil has a low smoke point!

Oh, god. I forgot to chop up the veggies...what do I have?

Alright, peppers - done. Mushrooms - done. Broccoli - done. Onions - done

What the fuck is wrong with this spinach?

Smell the spinach.

JESUS CHRIST!

Put spinach in Green Bin - make mental note to keep the date/food list on front of fridge updated.

Look for meat...Nothing but bologna and bacon

Finely dice bologna and bacon, cover with pumpkin spice and balsamic vinegar and honey and throw in pan.

Make sure nothing gets burned, and then insert vegetables.

Ew, this is going to be gross...

Season lightly with whatever spices are available...hell, cut up some 'secret ingredient' and toss it in. No harm in that...

Remember that you didn't toss the noodles into the pot...Crap, well...put the noodles in a bowl, put the electric kettle on.

Shit, gotta turn down the oven...oh, the kettle is done!

Cover noodles with water and then let sit, stirring regularly. Toss in microwave to further soften noodles.

The stuff in the pan is getting nice and done, toss in finished noodles.

Fry for a bit until evenly warm.

Serve on only clean plate with a side of water in a measuring cup.

 

I call it single 20 something stir-fry.

Fidel

Disgraceful.

Unionist

Oh, and thanks Fidel. Before reading all those stories from the MSM, I thought the fucking cops were really a nice bunch of misunderstood young folks that only beat up on workers and youth and minorities and Aboriginal folk and laughed off abused women calls and such because they were tricked into doing so by their Chief. I don't know where we would have been without all those articles. Mind you, it would have been interesting to get some insight, just once, about what it feels like to suffer from police brutality from the experience of oneself or one's community.

Yeah, and let me be the first to apologize for all us babblers that entered those wonderful threads, and what did we do!!?? - defending the police, praising them, saying they weren't as bad as all that, and rejecting the outstretched hands asking for solidarity. Yes, I remember all those shameful moments well, and I hang my head.

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

"Before reading all those stories from the MSM, I thought the fucking cops were really a nice bunch of misunderstood young folks that only beat up on workers and youth and minorities and Aboriginal folk and laughed off abused women calls and such because they were tricked into doing so by their Chief. I don't know where we would have been without all those articles. Mind you, it would have been interesting to get some insight, just once, about what it feels like to suffer from police brutality from the experience of oneself or one's community."

 

Kind of like all your post's about Afghanistan U? 

Unionist

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Kind of like all your post's about Afghanistan U? 

Yeah, RP, just like that. You see (or actually, maybe you don't see), the reason I post about Afghanistan is TO CONDEMN US - Canadians - white westerners - for our aggression and genocide. I use every single opportunity I can to praise the struggle of the Afghan people and to demand that WE leave, or be defeated. That's my duty. So yeah, sure, friend, that's just exactly like the PIGS and SCUM posts, isn't it?

Sorry for the drift - I'll go hunt down some recipes. But no more Jewish shit. Those people don't know how to eat. Except for Montréal bagel. Now that's food.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

I see, so only representatives of the oppressors get to vent, the oppressed can shut the fuck up.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Even a cursory reading of my posts (on their own) and my responses to E.Tamaran since he arrived at babble, has been in complete and utter support of the issues he brought to babble's attention, and my complete support of the decrying of the despicable everyday violence experienced by Aboriginal people across Canada at the hands of state-paid thugs, pigs, goons and scum.

This thread isn't about that.

I've actually been intimidated enough at this point to be reluctant to close it, and will not, in fact, close it this evening, given the unqualified vitriol that has been spewed my way, for little apparent reason other than the usual haters. And perhaps a few more. Maybe I'm taking this too personally, yet how else can I possibly take it?

If Catchfire wishes to close it, I hope he does so.

Otherwise you guys have fun.

al-Qa'bong

RevolutionPlease wrote:

edit:  Better to just conform I guess.  HA!  Same old, same old...I thought this site was supposed to be different than the MSM?   

 

Do you want us to sound as bad as "The O'Reilly Factor," or should we set our sights a little higher?

Unionist

Cueball wrote:

I see, so only representatives of the oppressors get to vent, the oppressed can shut the fuck up.

That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying. You hit the nail right on the head. Fractured its skull, in fact.

Could we leave sophistry by the wayside and understand that childish provocative insulting baiting behaviour by one individual is not worthy of two seconds of discussion by people who are actually engaged, in one way or another, in real-life struggle?

jas

Fidel wrote:

Refocusing on the thread topic of discussion fellow white people, this is about E. Tamaran. I've read some of E's threads, and the descriptions of police brutality are amazingly apartheid like as in really fucking awful. I think E. Tamaran might simply be seeking a little solidarity from the rest of us. Don't be afraid to pop into those threads once in a while and express your disapproval for the way Canada's so called police force conducts their bad selves. It's actually a fucking disgrace.

A quibble, though: starting a new thread for each of these instances of abuse against FNs. Perhaps there's a rhetorical power in this, but what about having one thread or thread series which itemizes these instances, or kinds of instances, and can build a case, so to speak? Like is done with some other recurring issues, e.g; violence against women. The FN forum could use some positive news, too.

Otherwise, like many/most here, I really respect his views. However, aesthetically speaking, I agree that recurring thread titles with the words SCUM and PIGS in them I think can repel more than entice.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yes, actually it is, when control of the media, and who gets to access it is part of the "real-life" struggle. You can bet, if ordinary Afghans living in Afghanistan had regular access to the internet, and spoke English, and considered this site worthy of being part of, the would describe the CAF in terms very similar to those that Tamaran uses for the police on a regular basis.

Would you advocate for them being banned, so that we can continue with our "reasoned" discourse on what "we" are doing to them?

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