Different take on the police

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WilderMore
Different take on the police

rabble's fixation with the police has intrigue me over the years. Here's a story from Victoria and is troubling to say the least: Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Good+Samaritans+subdue+knife+wielding+likely+save+officer+life/4122722/story.html#ixzz1BLq9bI6D

 

Good Samaritans subdue knife wielding man, likely save officer's life

 

ADRIAN LAM/Postmedia News

Tamsin McMahon and Katie DeRosa, National Post and Postmedia News · Monday, Jan. 17, 2011

The female officer had been investigating a complaint of stolen chocolate from a 7-Eleven near The Falls, an upscale condominium complex on Douglas Street. She had wrapped up her investigation and was heading out when a man pulled out a knife and jumped on her, slashing at her neck.

With the attacker on his stomach, Mr. Bater pressed on his back with his knee as the officer handed him her handcuffs. The man struggled at first, saying to the officer: "I'm going to kill you, you f-ing pig."

 

Le T Le T's picture

What's the point?

 

[cross-posted]

NDPP

Here in Toronto, we have been immersed in a media celebration of everything good about our  police, after one of them was killed. The coverage has been wall to wall, relentless and reverential. I have no doubt that this is partially intended to wash away the rather more distaff memories of the fascistic police palookas' gestapo tactics during the G20. I regret the officer's death as much as the next person but this story has been a good deal more prominent and profile than it would ordinarily be.

And another thing, if a worker is killed in a factory, other workers don't converge on the place from across the continent to attend the funeral. They do if they're cops.

Police are the muscle and hired guns of the state, something the recent media coverage doesn't cover.

WilderMore

For Le T: The point is that there are people out there trying to kill the people who are protecting 'us' (i.e. the population at large). I'm not blind; some police are rotten, but there are also rotten journalists and politicians. On the whole, though, and with an objective eye, the police do an admirable job, given the conditions they are working in. I fully understand that this isn't a popular point of view on rabble but to repeatedly state that all police are the 'enemy' and nothing more than 'the muscle and hired guns of the stste' is disengenous at best, and a self fulfilling prophecy at worst.

Unionist

WilderMore wrote:

rabble's fixation with the police has intrigue me over the years.

That about sums it up.

Weren't you the dude who said I was "pretty low" because I accused Michaelle Jean of shedding crocodile tears over the plight of Haitians - while having presided over their colonial occupation?

Just wondering why you would open a thread saying police are just like politicians and journalists.

What's next - "Canada's misunderstood military"?

Or, "Conservatives - a caring majority, a few creeps"?

 

Sineed

Police are pouring into town for officer Ryan Russell's funeral.  They're expecting about 10,000 law enforcement officers from across N. America.

It's the biggest social event for cops since the G-20.

KenS

And what about all of us whose unglorious occupations have hugely more accidents and fatalities per hour worked than cops?

Where is the march for roofers... without whom we would be wet and live in moldy rooms.

Not to mention that I'll bet far and away the biggest occupational hazard for police officers is traffic accidents while on duty.

Maysie Maysie's picture

WilderMore wrote:
 On the whole, though, and with an objective eye, the police do an admirable job, given the conditions they are working in. I fully understand that this isn't a popular point of view on rabble but to repeatedly state that all police are the 'enemy' and nothing more than 'the muscle and hired guns of the stste' is disengenous at best, and a self fulfilling prophecy at worst.

Hi Wilder.

Your "eye" is not objective. Nobody's is. Here on babble, a very small part of the big ol' interwebs, many of us have a negative view of the police, not only as armed agents of the state tasked with the legitimated use of violence and threat of violence against anyone they choose, but who are given special rights above the rest of us, whether at work or otherwise. 

There's no self-fulfilling prophecy. The police will brutalize whoever they choose to, with relative impunity. If there's mutterings and ramblings about that, it will hardly effect change.

I'm not sure if you belong here, Wilder. Please re-read the babble policy.

Nodifference, I think you're entirely correct. I'm arriving at Union Station at 1pm. I guess I'll see what's up.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

KenS wrote:

And what about all of us whose unglorious occupations have hugely more accidents and fatalities per hour worked than cops?

Where is the march for roofers... without whom we would be wet and live in moldy rooms.

Not to mention that I'll bet far and away the biggest occupational hazard for police officers is traffic accidents while on duty.

Indeed - although there was a deranged man at the wheel in this instance, the death of Ryan Russell was essentially a traffic accident.

WilderMore

Maysie wrote:

I'm not sure if you belong here, Wilder.

I've been on rabble for over a year now and the thing that could get me banned is saying that, overall, and notwithstanding the well documented cases of brutality, the police do an admirable job, and that it's wrong to describe them as "the enemy"?

If that's the case, you should change the babble policy to say "The police are the enemy of the people. Their sole purpose is to suppress the rights of certain people, and to support the ruling class. Dissenting views are punishable by banning."

Personal revelation: I was arrested once, a long time ago when I was still in highschool, basically just getting involved in things like minor vandalism and shoplifting. It scared me straight though, and I've been arrest free for 48 years now.

mhandel

You know here is an interesting question. At least since the 1950s there have been studies that examine the social psychological tendencies of people in terms of 'authoritarianism' (they called it the F-Scale). While there have been numerous 'developments' in the type of questions, that are asked  (see for instance Robert Altemeyer's work) but I wonder how high a level of authoritarianism the cops actually fare? (One of the interesting insights that this research has demonstrated is that higher levels of authoritarianism are tied to higher levels of violent behavior...and by 'violent' I'm not talking about violence in self-defense)

I would 'predict' that cops would have considerably higher levels of authoritarianism than the average member of the population.

mhandel

WilderMore, Is the reason why you believe the police are primarily 'good guys', is because you are afraid to be punished by them, just as you were punished by them when you were in high school?

 

When a father beats his son, what does the son learn from that act? Does he learn to dislike his father, or does he come to identify with his father as being in the 'right'?

Unionist

WilderMore wrote:

Maysie wrote:

I'm not sure if you belong here, Wilder.

I've been on rabble for over a year now and the thing that could get me banned is saying that, overall, and notwithstanding the well documented cases of brutality, the police do an admirable job, and that it's wrong to describe them as "the enemy"?

No one said you'd be banned. Get banned much, WM??

I remember your [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/winter-fundraising-drive-rabble... constructive post here[/url]:

Quote:
I'm in Korea teaching English and I like to keep up with Canadian news from a Progressive perspective. It's pains me to see Rabble.ca ignore the suffering of people of colour by supporting their oppressors. There will be no donation from me at this time.

I also recall with fondness your calling me [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/toronto-cop-charged-assaulting-nob..."pretty low"[/url] for condemning that POS Michaelle Jean - you know, the character that presided over and ardently supported Canada's occupation of Afghanistan and Haiti, and then is moved to tears by the plight of her victims?

And I really loved [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/more-korean-war-... gem[/url]:

Quote:
I'm not sure if Maysie has spent time in South Korea as I have, but they truly do appreciate the sacrifices made by Canadian soldiers (and all the other nations' of course) in defence of their freedom.

So, as I asked before, what's the next thread: "Canada's Misunderstood Military"?

Or, "Haitians truly do appreciate foreign occupiers' sacrifices in defence of their freedom"?

What exactly are you doing here?

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Unionist, the first time was cute, this time it's badgering. Don't do it.

Wilder, I haven't had a chance to review your posting history. Needless to say, if you don't agree with the babble policy and if you're making it your purpose to inform babble of how misinformed and wrong-headed we are, I would respectfully ask you to look to the myriad other places online that welcome your thoughts and views.

If I threaten to ban, I say it outright. I haven't said it yet. And if you and babble aren't compatible, it will be clear soon enough.

Unionist

Sorry, Maysie, I just didn't care much for this thread, and I was venting. I'm done venting. I think.

 

NDPP

"Live Toronto Police Funeral

watch video and follow our liveblog during the procession and funeral for Sgt Ryan Russell who was killed while trying to stop a stolen snowplow.." LEAD item on CBC News website. CBC really has become just a poor lapdog and mouthpiece for the Canadian state.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

In Toronto thousands of gang members are meeting to show solidarity with one of their own.  This is the first fatality in that force in many years but they need to send a message to the population that they stand together against the rabble. In the meantime real workers suffer fatalities far more often than members of our privileged institutional gangs.  Notice that the corporate bosses in Canada kill more workers than other comparable jurisdictions but the police will never protect us against those crimes.  Workers are collateral damage in the corporate world.  The police are holy warriors needed to control the population on behalf of those corporate murderers.

Quote:

 

Incidence of Workplace Fatalities by Workforce Characteristics 

 

 The chances of a worker dying from a workplace-related accident or disease in 

Canada vary greatly by industry, occupation, gender, and age group. They also vary by 

province. The key features of the incidence of workplace fatalities by the characteristics 

of the workforce were the following: 

 

The most dangerous industry in which to work over the 1996-2005 period was 

mining, quarrying and oil wells (49.9 per 100,000 workers or one out of 2,000); 

followed by logging and forestry (42.9 per 100,000 per workers or one out of 

2,300); fishing and trapping (35.6 fatalities per 100,000 workers or one out of 

every 2,800 workers), agriculture (28.1 fatalities per 100,000 workers or one out 

every 3,600 workers  and construction (20.6 per 100,000 workers or one out of 

4,900). Finance and insurance was the least dangerous industry, with only 0.2 

fatalities per 100,000 workers or one death for every 500,000 workers.   

 Incidence of Workplace Fatalities by Workforce Characteristics 

 

 

• Like industries, workplace fatalities are highly concentrated in certain 

occupations. Over the 1996-2005 period, occupations unique to primary 

occupations had the highest fatality rate at 19.5 per 100,000 workers, followed by 

trades, transport and equipment operators and related occupations (19.0 per 

100,000 workers), and occupations unique to processing, manufacturing, and 

utilities (10.2). All other major group occupations had a fatality rate less than 4 

per 100,000.  

 

• Men are much more likely to die on the job than women. In 2005, the incidence of 

workplace death was 30 times higher among men than women: 12.4 deaths per 

100,000 workers versus 0.4 deaths. 

 

• Older workers are much more likely to experience a workplace-related fatality 

than a younger worker. In 2005, the incidence rate rises from 1.8 deaths per 

100,000 workers for the 15-19 years age group to 18.1 deaths per 100,000 

workers for the 60-64 age group. 

 

• The jurisdiction with the highest fatality rate was the Territories at 27.4 deaths per 

100,000 workers in 2005, four times the national average. At nearly double the 

national average, Newfoundland in 2005 had, by far, the highest rate of workplace 

fatalities of all ten provinces, with 11.7 deaths per 100,000 workers. This situation 

also prevailed over the 1993-2005 period.  

 

• Workplace fatalities arise from both accidents and occupational diseases. In 2005, 

out of the 1,097 workplace fatalities 491 (44.8 per cent) were from accidents and 

557 (50.8 per cent) from occupational diseases. Asbestos-related deaths alone 

accounted for about 340 deaths in 2005, 61 per cent of deaths from occupational 

diseases and 31 per cent of total workplace fatalities.   

 

International Comparisons of the Rate of Workplace Fatalities 

 

The ILO Workplace Fatality database shows that in 2003 Canada had the fifth 

highest incidence of workplace fatalities out of 29 OECD countries. Only Korea, Mexico, 

Portugal, and Turkey had workplace fatality higher rates and all four countries are at a 

much lower level of development than Canada.  

 

 

http://www.csls.ca/reports/csls2006-04-E.pdf

 

Caissa

We'll see how Baby Doc does with the police.

 

 

Haitian police have escorted Jean-Claude Duvalier from his hotel in Port-au-Prince following a morning meeting with senior judicial officials, Reuters is reporting.

It was not immediately clear why Duvalier was being removed from the hotel or if he was arrested.

The country's top prosecutor and a judge were among those who met with the former leader known as "Baby Doc" in the high-end hotel where he has been ensconced since his surprise return to Haiti on Sunday.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/01/18/baby-doc-haiti-un.html#ixzz1BPLzcQpb

Sineed

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Finance and insurance was the least dangerous industry, with only 0.2 fatalities per 100,000 workers or one death for every 500,000 workers.

An insurance-related injury I can see; ie, an adjustor having an accident at a claim site such as a burned-out house.  But how would you die in a finance-related injury?  Infection from a paper cut?  Falling off your bag of money?

More on-topic, what do we think of the charges laid against the accused?  Since an officer died, it's automatically first degree murder, though it may actually have been an accident, albeit an accident that happened in the commission of a crime.

Should crimes against police officers automatically carry a stiffer sentence?

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hey Caissa, are you in the right thread?

Sineed wrote:
  Falling off your bag of money?

Hee hee. How I long to be smited thusly.

Caissa

Yeah, we need to examine the haitian take on the police. Wink

Sineed

Maysie wrote:

Sineed wrote:
  Falling off your bag of money?

Hee hee. How I long to be smited thusly.

But I'm totally serious.  Think of all those people leaving their Forest Hill mansions in the morning, not knowing if they're going to be the 0.2 of 100,000 who won't be driving their Lexus home at the end of the day, leaving their loved ones nothing to live on but those numbered accounts in the Cayman Islands?

Oh the Sean Hannity!

Aristotleded24

WilderMore wrote:
For Le T: The point is that there are people out there trying to kill the people who are protecting 'us' (i.e. the population at large).

Except people go into the police knowing that they will have to spend time fighting the bad guys, and they trained for it. As for being assaulted on the job, I agree that is a hazard that comes with being a police officer, but did you know that taxi cab drivers are far more likely to be assaulted than police officers?

Unionist

Sineed wrote:

Should crimes against police officers automatically carry a stiffer sentence?

Of course not.

Anyway, in this particular instance, there may be mitigating circumstances. I'll wait for all the evidence to come it, but it appears to me that a berserk person was rampaging through town in a stolen snow plough being chased by police, when an officer decided to end the situation by planting himself in the path of the snow plough. Do I have that right? And 10,000 cops have swarmed in Toronto to celebrate that inspired attempt at traffic control?

 

Dodger718

Oh, for fuck's sake. The man's funeral is today. He had a wife and a young son. Do you really need to mock him?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Dodger718 wrote:

Oh, for fuck's sake. The man's funeral is today. He had a wife and a young son. Do you really need to mock him?

Does his continent wide gang need to intimate the citizens of Toronto?  I think his funeral and procession is similar to this one and you think we are mocking.  I mean WTF is with a 1000 person fucking march in honour of a horse. The problem is that the gang has more respect for their horses than for citizens.  When was the last time they paid respects to any other service provider killed while on the job.  They would rather honour the fucking horse.

Quote:

More than 1,000 people paid their last respects to Brigadier, the Belgian cross police horse who was killed in the line of duty last month. 

Chief Bill Blair, Mayor David Miller, Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services Monte Kwinter, Toronto Police Services Board chair Alok Mukherjee and vice-chair Pam McConnell were among the dignitaries in attendance for the hour-long ceremony at Ricoh Coliseum.

 

Unionist

Dodger718 wrote:

Oh, for fuck's sake. The man's funeral is today. He had a wife and a young son. Do you really need to mock him?

Sorry about that. We workers, when some of us get injured or killed on the job, are quite accustomed to having our actions subjected to minute scrutiny by our employers - not for the purpose of prevention or really getting to the bottom of the cause of unsafe conditions, but in an effort to blame "human error" and cover up systemic issues which would be costly to correct.

As part of the citizenry which employs the police, I thought I would employ similar standards in questioning their actions - especially given that when my sisters or brothers die on the job, there is no paid leave granted to thousands of colleagues to attend their funerals.

 

Sineed

Unionist wrote:

I'll wait for all the evidence to come it, but it appears to me that a berserk person was rampaging through town in a stolen snow plough being chased by police, when an officer decided to end the situation by planting himself in the path of the snow plough. Do I have that right? 

Apparently he sustained his fatal injuries when he was pinned between the plow and his cruiser.

I'm just thinking, even though the guy did steal the plow, if he did kill the cop by accident, a first degree murder charge oversteps the boundaries of what that charge entails.

If I were working at a retail pharmacy, and someone came in demanding Oxycontin at gunpoint, and they shot and killed me, that'd be 2nd degree, no?  

Cueball Cueball's picture

First cop killed on duty in Toronto in eight years. Meanwhile, I don't remember daily front page articles for a whole week about this electrician killed in the line of duty;

TTC bus accident kills electrical company worker

Or this one;

Worker dies after falling off building

Four construction workers in Toronto killed after scaffolding collapsed

I remember the last got almost as much coverage as the recent death of the police Sargent, so I guess construction workers have about 1/4 the value as a police officer.

All in all being a cop is a pretty cushy well paid job with a lot of benefits and few on the job risks. At worst it is probably really boring.

Quote:
I think most residents of the city will be astounded to learn that Toronto's finest respond to so few calls - only one every second shift. This is not a productive use of the time of city employees paid about $75,000 a year.

And it is not as if officers are making arrests on every shift. The average number of arrests per officer in Toronto, as it is in other Canadian cities, is seven to eight per year, that is, one arrest every six weeks, only one crime of which is a crime of serious violence.

There's a related point. A recent Environmental Assessment Report from the police service notes that police now spend eight hours on every Priority 1 call, and that's double the amount of time spent on such calls 10 years ago. The time spent on personal injury vehicle accidents has increased 33 per cent in four years. I suspect police spend more time on these incidents simply because they do not have a lot else to do.

John Sewell

Caissa
Cueball Cueball's picture

It is not murder if you are Michael Bryant. In fact it doesn't even warrant a criminal case be pursued beyond the preliminary stages.

My question is did Sgt. Russell leap onto the vehicle or otherwise engage the oncoming snow plow. If so, the defendant might just be able to get off without any charge whatsoever, in the same manner as Michael Bryant, who was vigorously defended here on the grounds of self defense, when he smashed Darcy Shepard into a mailbox and killed him.

Did the defendant feel he was a immediate risk of being shot, as it seems he was in the end anyway, and as such was he justified in defending himself?

6079_Smith_W

Just saw on facebook an eyewitness report that a protestor, carrying a sign saying "derogatory to police" was forced to take it down. 

Just heresay; not a news report.

 

WilderMore

mhandel wrote:

WilderMore, Is the reason why you believe the police are primarily 'good guys', is because you are afraid to be punished by them, just as you were punished by them when you were in high school?

In my case they [the police] were the 'good guys'. I was arrested because I committed crimes, and because of that I decided fairly quickly that I didn't like it and straightened up. Overly simplistic analysis of a teenager's mind I suppose. In the end I avoided becoming a lifelong criminal. You could say, although it would be fairly melodramatic, that they saved my life.

On a side note I notice a huge amount of hostility in some of the threads today. Perhaps it's due to Jan 18 being the 'saddest day of the year'.

Aristotleded24

Cueball wrote:
Quote:
I think most residents of the city will be astounded to learn that Toronto's finest respond to so few calls - only one every second shift. This is not a productive use of the time of city employees paid about $75,000 a year.

And it is not as if officers are making arrests on every shift. The average number of arrests per officer in Toronto, as it is in other Canadian cities, is seven to eight per year, that is, one arrest every six weeks, only one crime of which is a crime of serious violence.

There's a related point. A recent Environmental Assessment Report from the police service notes that police now spend eight hours on every Priority 1 call, and that's double the amount of time spent on such calls 10 years ago. The time spent on personal injury vehicle accidents has increased 33 per cent in four years. I suspect police spend more time on these incidents simply because they do not have a lot else to do.

John Sewell

You can't simply divide the calls for service by the number of officers and say, "presto, officers only arrest someone once every six weeks." Not all of those officers work in areas where people would be arrested. Some would be off sick, injured, on vacation, and you also have to factor in those officers not on duty. Once you have taken that into account, then many of those figures do not hold water.

That said, I do agree that there seems to be a sacredness around police budgets that they should always increase no matter what.

Merowe

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 

That said, I do agree that there seems to be a sacredness around police budgets that they should always increase no matter what.

 

They're a central component of the patriarchal-industrial complex! And the wealth lavished upon them has as much a symbolic as a practical component, with its ritual destruction of wealth on the temple fires (of irrational fear).

 

Bacchus

Odd that Rob Ford wanted a cut to the police budget and his opposition arranged for a 2% raise

dandmb50 dandmb50's picture

January 18/2010 - TORONTO - At the funeral of Sergeant Ryan Russell, 35, of Toronto Police Service (TPS) over 12,000 police and public attended the funeral service at Metro Toronto Convention Centre (MTCC) just down the street from Air Canada Centre where they had the service on the Jumbotron. Jumbotron funeral ACC
There was an eerie silence in the main hall at the MTCC as the family and friends marched in the packed room, another room for the overflow was assigned down the hall with video connection of the service.
The funeral service was delayed because of the numbers attending and after the march down University Avenue of over 8000 officers from all over North America was well organized and impressive.

Ryan Russell funeral

After the family entered and were directed to there seats right at the front as the casket was brought in it was placed on the podium in front of the stage, two year old son Nolan Russell said, "Mommy where's Daddy" as his mother Christine Russell drew her fingers through the youngsters hair.

Russell family

Officers came from all over North America, with badges from such places as Cleveland, New York State, New York City, Sudbury, North Bay, Montreal, Timmins, Saskatoon, RCMP in their full dress red tunics, OPP and nearly every force around the Toronto area. Many first line workers Fire, Ambulance, and Emergency services were also well represented.

A group of dedicated officers even drove from St. John, Newfoundland to attend the service. The media coverage was extensive as it was shown live on most Toronto stations and live across Canada on CTV News Channel. Sergeant Russell worked out of 52 division in downtown Toronto was killed on the job as he was trying to stop a stolen snow plow that went on a rampage for over two hours through the streets of Toronto on Wednesday morning. The suspect has since been arrested and charged with first degree murder and was shot several times by police and is recovering in hospital. The full snowplow incident can be viewed HERE. A glowing tribute to the 11 year veteran can be viewed by clicking HERE in the Toronto Star.

Daniel .. Toronto

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Dan, did you even read this thread?

I should have advised you that posting pro-police propaganda, while not against the rules, is simply not a good idea in a progressive forum such as babble.