Rachel Aimee: $pread Magazine

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Saber

I would like to acknowledge some merit to what Martin is saying. I agree that prosecuting Johns is superior to prosecuting prostitutes. One theoretical advantage is that prostitutes would be able to hold the threat of the law over a John's head as a weapon. If he tried to abuse her or refuse payment (depending on how payment figured in the legislation) she could threaten to turn him in to the cops. That's a fair bit of power on her side.

But how much would this improve the situation and what might be the hidden consequences? Such legislation would still not enable women to operate in the safety of a bawdy house. They would still be operating in the streets and in venues where the Johns feel safe from being caught but which are not necessarily familiar to the women.

What disturbs me about this proposal is that is keeps prostitution in the streets as opposed to in houses of business operated by women. The whole clichй of a Madam in a whorehouse exists for a reason. When women are able to work together in the same location, they are able to remain organized and protect each other. If something goes wrong with a trick, the woman next door will hear. Someone you know and work with will come to your rescue. You rarely hear of Madams operating in the street. I'm speculating, but I think that may relate to basic physical strength. It seems to me that pimps dominate the street venue of prostitution and that the women have more potential to exercise power and protect themselves in bawdy houses. For women to work indoors, in a stable location however, the profession needs to be completely legal.

[ 11 October 2007: Message edited by: Saber ]

Saber

quote:


Originally posted by I AM WOMAN:
[b]I disagree. I think prostitution is exploitive and degrading to women. I think that women are worthy of more dignity than that.[/b]

I respect your opinion. It's a common feminist argument but I pose a question to you:

I presume that you believe a woman has the right to negotiate her own marriage. What principle grants her this right which does not also grant her the right to negotiate other more short term sexual-economic relationships?

I AM WOMAN

quote:


Originally posted by Saber:
[b]
I presume that you believe a woman has the right to negotiate her own marriage. What principle grants her this right which does not also grant her the right to negotiate other more short term sexual-economic relationships?[/b]

The principal that grants a woman (or a man) the right to negotiate the terms of their marriage is not predicated on sexual exploitation. A marriage is based on mutual trust, love & commitment. Prostitution is predicated on the economic & sexual exploitation of women. The vulnerable and desperate women that find themselves in these dire situations are in need of help & support. They should not be subjected to more abuse.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Then why do people sign prenuptual agreements, if matters of economy are irrelevant?

Moreso, the tradition of marriage is far more barbaric than it would seem. Lets not forget that it is embedded in western Judeao-Christian traditions of arranged marriages, with direct economic implications, even in the paying of doweries, and the solidifying of social and economic ties between families.

Even today women are encouraged by their families to marry well into good families to men who have good prospects. Even in relationships which are founded upon the principles you are talking about, I don't know any sane woman who does not consider the economic status of their propsective mate, since quite obviously this counts when one is considering the long term costs of having children.

Certainly, this is not necessarily the most imporant factor, but it is still often a factor when women, and often their families consider prospective male partners for long term relationships.

Just look at how many marriages that end in divorce, also end in brutal financial legal disputes.

[ 11 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

minkepants

I think I AM WOMAN could try to filter her conception of marriage through what it meant, almost universally, until about, say, 1975, and what it still largely means in our society today, and universally in many socities today:

quote:

The principal that grants a woman (or a man) the right to negotiate the terms of their marriage is...predicated on sexual exploitation. A marriage is based...on the economic & sexual exploitation of women. The vulnerable and desperate women that find themselves in these dire situations are in need of help & support. They should not be subjected to more abuse.

jas

quote:


Originally posted by Scout:

You wouldn't, which is exactly my point.


How cryptically vague and convenient.

Doug

There is a reason that prostitution is called the world's oldest profession. It's been here forever and it's not going away so long as men want sex and women are willing to receive things in exchange for it. When it's legal and in the open, the nastier aspects of it can be regulated. That's much harder to do when it's illegal.

jas

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
There is a reason that prostitution is called the world's oldest profession. It's been here forever and it's not going away so long as men...

don't want to examine their own behaviour.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Actually Jas, I have done quite a lot of examining my behaviour. I would in fact say that from about the age of 16 to about the age of 25 i spent 70% of my life examining my sexual behaviour. Fancy that eh? Now perhaps you might want to examine yours.

Lets say that men, as a group, feel less need to have emotional content in their sex, for whatever reason -- I don't agree necessarily, I think some do and some don't, and feel differently at different times. Now, ask yourself what is it about you that makes you think you have the right to assert the superiority of your particular sexual morality on others?

"I believe that sex should involve intimacy."

I am asking you this because the general drift of deposition here leads me to think that you feel that people (women included) shouldn't fuck just because they want to fuck, free of emotional content -- and in fact are morally deficient (variously rendered in the common language as pathologies such as: sluts, nymphos, whores, womanizers) if they do -- and it seems to me that this idea has a lot of sugar and spice in it, but not a lot of puppy dogs tails.

[ 12 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

jas

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
and it seems to me that this idea has a lot of sugar and spice in it, but not a lot of puppy dogs tails.

That's entirely your own perception, one which I've noticed has slanted your approach in all these threads. One which you are quick to prosecute at any available opportunity.

Will deal with the other question later. No time now.

Cueball Cueball's picture

"I believe that sex should involve intimacy."

Why?

Maysie Maysie's picture

Joining the conversation late.

First of all, Cueball, this...

quote:

in all "solidarity" work, which is the essence of what you are doing, the byword is not determining for yourself what is best for those who you want to be in solidarity with, but empowering them by accepting their definition of the problem which they face, and the solution they choose to resolve it, not the one you think is right.

...is so lovely I have to repeat it again. This is so so relevant beyond the topic of this thread. Wow. Thank you for those words, Cue.

As for the tone of the thread, here's some questions to mull:
What about men who are prostitutes (who have mostly male clients)?
Why is women's sexuality so compelling to talk about, analyze, dissect, ignore the words of, monitor, control, etc etc? Ad frikken nauseum. Sheesh.

Sex=intimacy? Are you frikking kidding me?

spillunk

quote:


Originally posted by jas:
[b]
...don't want to examine their own behaviour.[/b]

While it's fine to dissect the demand side in the sex work equation, my sense is that there will always be demand. I could be wrong, but thousands of years of history has not validated any other position.

Examining behaviour is fine to do, but we should also critically examine, as Cueball has, why we have this undercurrent that this demand is inherently sinful or bad.

The notion that (as long as all parties consent), everyone should have the right to pursue sex for whatever purpose they want is also highly controversial, and that controversy bears dissecting too. If we envision for ourselves the goal of a future where sex is not traded by anyone, then I think we're already lost in our assumptions about what sex means to different people.

There [b]will[/b] be a supply of sex work, whether we drive it underground or not. The only question is what we do to make sex workers safer, better integrated in our culture, and with greater access to benefits.

CMOT Dibbler

quote:


I believe that our sexual relationships deeply inform our social relationships. I believe that sex should involve intimacy. If there is a large faction of the population renting people for sex, or sometimes just taking it, and this is considered the normal order of things, I believe there is a problem in our society that isn't being examined. I think the "new" sexual liberality (and what's new about it?) is a mask for the same old status quo. On the one hand, yes, we need to be able to talk about sex more, but we also need to grow up about it, and this "sex at any cost" morality is not the answer, imo.

Alright, how would you have society solve this problem?

Please don't provide me with theoretical answers that deal with abstracts like capitalism and patriarchy. I want actual concrete solutions.

[ 12 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

Saber

Minkepant, that's hilarious. And an excellent point too!

It's only quite recently that marriage has ceased to be an institution highly exploitative of women, made necessary for women because of a patriarchal society. Women were forced into marriage out of economic necessity. Almost every kind of abuse that can be associated with prostitution has taken place in the domestic sphere, within the protected institution of marriage, rape being the most illustrative example of this.

If you take a look at the economic and feminist principles that underlie debates relating to marriage and prostitution, they are very similar.

- Can rape occur within marriage?
- Can rape occur within prostitution?

- Is it okay to hit your wife?
- Is it okay to hit your prostitute?

- Should women have sex for money?
- Should women marry for money?

Now if you consider the last question, women who marry for money are given far more respect than women who sell sexual services for money. Why is that? The latter are more honest than the former and yet the former are often considered smart.

To ignore the economics of marriage is very naive, and doesn't make for very good feminism.

[ 12 October 2007: Message edited by: Saber ]

jas

quote:


As for the tone of the thread, here's some questions to mull:
What about men who are prostitutes (who have mostly male clients)?
Why is women's sexuality so compelling to talk about, analyze, dissect, ignore the words of, monitor, control, etc etc? Ad frikken nauseum. Sheesh.

Read the threads in question, BCG. We are talking about people (mostly men) who [i]buy[/i] sex. That includes buying sex from women, from men, from children, whatever. As for the dissection of women's sexuality, who's doing that? Cueball, maybe. Not me.

quote:

Sex=intimacy? Are you frikking kidding me?

Yeah, intimacy. Eewwww....

Cueball Cueball's picture

Thank you very much for your earlier comments. I found them to be forthright and honest.

You're the one demanding an exclusionary dialogue that only dissects male sexuality. You insist on it, in fact. Very odd that you should demand such a dissection, and feel that a dissection of the perspective from which you are evaluating that dissection is off limits.

You have not answered the question:

"I believe that sex should involve intimacy."

Why?

PS: No. The thread in question is directly derived from a thread specifically about womens agency in the sex trade. Both are relevant topics.

[ 12 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

jas

In response to Cueball's question, just as humans are not a commodity, life is not a commodity (I don't support the patenting of life forms or gene sequences either), sex is not a commodity.

I can see that anything else I say about this now, will be automatically construed here as an insult to sex workers everywhere, so, no, I'm not stepping in it tonight.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I didn't ask about comodification of sex. For instance, a person might just fuck someone else, without an exchange of money, and still not be intimate. This happens all the time.

I asked why you "believe that sex should involve intimacy"?

jas

*whistles*

Saber

quote:


Bigcitygal:
As for the tone of the thread, here's some questions to mull:
What about men who are prostitutes (who have mostly male clients)?

I think this is a really important topic to bring up. There [i]are[/i] male prostitutes and most of them do service male clients. I'm not as informed on the issues relating to male prostitution as to female prostitution. All I have read about male prostitution has related to "The Third World". Anybody more informed on the issue? It's probably more common than we think.

Erik Redburn

OTOH, enough said.

[ 12 October 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

minkepants

thanks,saber.your bit about disposable people was devastating.

CMOT Dibbler

quote:


Read the threads in question, BCG. We are talking about people (mostly men) who buy sex.

No we're not, at least not anymore. This thread started with Cue posting an article about spread magazine and it was quickly derailed by Martin Dufresne.
Don't worry about answering my question. It's impossible to do WITHOUT refering to at least one of the abstracts I mentioned.

[ 13 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

Maysie Maysie's picture

Okay, boys, this is getting a bit tiresome.

The notion that sex should always equal intimacy is a highly moral judgement that not everyone holds. It reminds me of the very old sexist saying "women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex". Have we not evolved socially since then? No? Please.

Women and men are capable of much intimacy, sexual or otherwise, and as much sex devoid of intimacy, as we please. An individual person's range may be narrow and fixed more on the "sex and emotional intimacy" range, but that isn't the case for all, nor would I expect that for all.

And what does all this have to do with sex workers? I've had sex workers tell me that for long-term clients there is a level of intimacy that I would not have assumed, as an outsider to both the literal buying and selling of sex. An emotional connection can develop.

Oh, one last tiny point. If no men were prepared to pay for sex, there would be no more paid sex workers. This isn't a complicated chicken and egg question.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Really from my perespective, I think the reason that men are slightly more lose sexually is really a result of their lack of concern over issues such as pregnancy. I think also, women are more concerned about the long term issues of child rearing. I think this has some long term attitude impacts, which make me a little more liberal in their sexual habits, and are more into the general idea of creating stable and intimate relationships.

But my experience is that women are not essentially looking for more intimate sexual experiences than men, just as sex, and often quite content with one night stands, or short affairs without any real long term emoitional attachements.

CMOT Dibbler

[ 13 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

bliter

I did not, and would not, say it, but came upon this very strong opinion when reading responses to a blog entry on "gold digging" - in reference to women seeking marriage/partnership.:

75.
October 11th,
2007
2:27 pm
it reaffirms what I truly believe.. ALL WOMEN ARE BASICALLY PROSTITUTES ..
— Posted by (deleted)

I immediately had to ask myself, should that be [i]basicly[/i] or [i]basically[/i]?

Though the latter is probably correct, I tend to favor the former since I believe something may be basic - not basical.

For what it's worth, I think the poster's opinion is incorrect.

CMOT Dibbler

quote:


Oh, one last tiny point. If no men were prepared to pay for sex, there would be no more paid sex workers. This isn't a complicated chicken and egg question.

Most of the sex work would vanish, but not all of it. Aren't there instances where women sometimes pay for sex?

[ 13 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

bliter

CMOT Dibbler

That was rude.

CMOT Dibbler

What? I felt that I was being kind of defensive, but it is a legitimate point. I'll remove the fake HTML.

AfroHealer

quote:


Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]

Oh, one last tiny point. If no men were prepared to pay for sex, there would be no more paid sex workers. This isn't a complicated chicken and egg question.[/b]


Just wanted to remind you that in resorts in the global south, there is a virtual avalanche of women buying sex, from so-called Exotic males.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism]Femal Sex tourism[/url]

quote:

[i]female travel sex (involving American and English women) began in Rome in the late 1840s, at the same time as feminism's first wave, which encouraged independence and travel.[/i]

CMOT Dibbler

Unfotunatly, even if we remove the barriers that prevent sexworkers from doing there jobs, we're still stuck with a sociey that hates prstitutes, with very few people(even on the sexually liberal left) willing to help sexworkers make their way in the world.

It's really unfair. Even those who have fought for the disposessed all their lives, won't lift a finger for those who engage in sexwork.

I AM WOMAN

quote:


Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[b] It's really unfair. Even those who have fought for the disposesed all their lives, won't lift a finger for those who engage in sexwork.[/b]

You can include me in that crowd. I think the progressive movement should be about ENDING sex work . Not allowing it to continue.

Maysie Maysie's picture

AfroHealer, yes, some privileged class white women buy sex, which is a perfect example to be against the "equality" language of feminism. But that's thread drift.

Nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of sex for sale involves male customers and female sex providers.

I AM, there can be no ending of sex work until you eliminate the need for sex work, and the need for sex work comes from the customers, not the workers. So, are you advocating castration? Negative reinforcement therapy? Monasteries? Chastity belts for men? Mandatory homosexual brainwashing?

Centering women sex workers as "the problem" is exactly what progressives should NOT do.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I think I would have no problem with someone having a principled stand against sex work if they were likewise saying that it should be legal, but that the primary motivating factors for women wanting to do sex work were removed that being the economic handicap that women face in their daily lives. Only when women, and people in general, are not driven to do risky and exploitative labour will it be clear that women doing sex women have a clear choice, and are not being forced into it because they need to.

Regulation could even be concieved off as part of that solution, since inevitably were the real wages of women increased over all throughout society, the cost to the consumer would increase, just through basic supply and demand prinicples, and the women who do do it would make more money, and be more likely to move from doing it to doing things that really interested them.

The rest of these issues, are really moral problems of personal choice, and I think personal choice trumps other considerations here, as these activities happen between indivduals and if there is any harm done, it happens on the personal level, just like drinking, drug addiction and numerous other things which are personally harmful, but not damaging to society at large.

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[QB]
Most of the sex work would vanish, but not all of it. Aren't there instances where women sometimes pay for sex?
QB]

And for that matter there are people who have few alternatives other than paying for sex, single disabled ane elderly people, for example.

martin dufresne

A group of Spanish men recently published an abolitionist manifesto, supportive of presently prostituted people and inviting men to desist from using their privilege to sexually exploit them.
They offer an interesting rebuttal to the alleged 'inevitability' argument, as really unacceptable and insulting to men. (Some may disagree, of course...)

quote:

Consideramos que afirmaciones del tipo "sin la prostituciуn habrнa mбs violaciones", "es la profesiуn mбs antigua del mundo", "es la ъnica manera de tener relaciones sexuales para muchas personas" son completamente inaceptables y ofensivas para los hombres. Los hombres no tenemos deseos sexuales incontrolables e incontrolados por los cuales sin prostitutas solo podemos acabar violando. Ese tipo de argumentos solo pretenden justificar la relaciуn de poder que supone la prostituciуn y simplemente buscan defender los derechos de los explotadores sexuales.

[url=http://www.hombresabolicionistas.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Section... por la Abolicion de la Prostitucion[/url]

Cueball Cueball's picture

I was rather looking for an organization of women in the sex trade that supports your views. I am fully aware that there are plenty of men out there who feel it is their right to dictate what women should and should not do with their bodies.

[ 16 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

minkepants

Nicely put, Cue.

Although it's hardly surprising Martin would cite another oddball fraternal feminist organization much like his own, both of which, I suspect, are remarkably devoid of women.

martin dufresne

"Cueball" says he is "fully aware that there are plenty of men out there who feel it is their right to dictate what women should and should not do with their bodies".

Good for him. But the Hombres por la Abolicion de la Prostitucion don't and neither do I.

Jingles

quote:


I think the progressive movement should be about ENDING sex work . Not allowing it to continue.

That doesn't sound very progressive. That sounds positively Puritanical.

So much of the prostitution debate reeks of Victorian moral approbation. The Fallen Women syndrome, or the Pretty Woman syndrome, seems to run as an undercurrent.

Millions of women are exploited, abused, degraded, humiliated, and otherwise used by men in daily existence all without having to remove a single garment. A typical day at a McDonald's provides enough exploitation and humiliation for a lifetime. Hell, they can just go to church, since most religions consider women subhuman. But when it involves sex, suddenly concerned men and women feel they must Do Something About it.

When Martin and the Hombres get together to stop the patriarchy's exploitation of women relegated to work in the early child care industry, maybe they'll be on to something. Until then, their advocacy of anti-sex work seems more like "rescue the damsel in distress" than actual progressive work.

martin dufresne

Bigcitygal, are you really convinced of men's - or indeed consumers of any gender's - alleged "need for" the kind of sex one buys?
You wrote:

quote:

I AM, there can be no ending of sex work until you eliminate the need for sex work, and the need for sex work comes from the customers, not the workers.

Could buying sex be seen as a luxury instead, a perk of power, a reflection of what some people come to take for granted when enough people of a pilloried class lack other options? Indeed, do the privileged need sex or is it the other way around, that is does traditional sex "need" a power differential?

I agree with you that prostituted people aren't the problem, johns and a racist/sexist/imperialist culture are. And it seems to me that the research establishing that most johns *do* have at least one sex partner - and the option of negotiating a reciprocal exchange - disproves the "need" excuse

So isn't it clear that we can question johns' privilege to use women, instead of entertaining the extreme alternatives you list below (and you forgot wet dreams - ain't they great? - and self-love):

quote:

...So, are you advocating castration? Negative reinforcement therapy? Monasteries? Chastity belts for men? Mandatory homosexual brainwashing?

P.S.: Homosexuality doesn't rule out renting people for sexual use, unfortunately.

[url=http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2550393.html?menu=]Another solution: Get a robot[/url]

[ 17 October 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

Another site you might be interested in visiting Martin, would be this one: [url=http://www.breadnroses.ca/frontpage/]brednroses[/url].

Maysie Maysie's picture

quote:


martin: Could buying sex be seen as a luxury instead, a perk of power, a reflection of what some people come to take for granted when enough people of a pilloried class lack other options? Indeed, do the privileged need sex or is it the other way around, that is does traditional sex "need" a power differential?

No. I believe most of this was covered in the "why do men go to prostitutes" thread.

I felt the same way about johns as you, martin, until I saw Mirha Soleil-Ross' performance at Buddies in Bad Times Theatre a few years ago. She helped me broaden my rather closed mind, and got rid of ideas like "all johns are power-hungry fuckwads who want to buy women to lord it over them for 30 or 60 minutes". Not that there aren't johns like that, but such johns quickly get a bad rep in the community (yes, there are sex worker communities) and there's even a "Bad Date book" in Toronto that circulates regarding the more violent johns, johns who won't pay, johns who are fucked up and dangerous. The book includes cops to avoid for similar reasons. And it's updated regularly.

The model "The client exploits the worker completely. The client has all the control, the worker has none" falls apart when we look at male workers, regardless of the gender of the client.

And Jingles' point about ways in which women are exploited at work in which no sex occurs is very VERY significant. Early Childhood Educators aka day care workers get pissed on, puked on, they need to feed and often bathe the numerous babies, toddlers and children in their care, they get paid crap, they clean up crap, they work in a loud and screechy environment. In the magic world of BCG they would be making tons of money, with fabulous benefits, and shorter work shifts. They sure as hell aren't. Where's your outrage at that, martin?

Sex work has been described to me as similar to other work in which you use your body. There is a built-in time constraint (you can't plan on doing this work for decades, like construction work, day care work and other manual labour), because of this you [b]should[/b] get paid more than people who just sit at a desk all day and there are built-in physical hazards that you may not anticipate that may end your career.

I'll ask again: why the obsession with prostitution? martin, you seem to be fetishizing prostitution as THE MOST HORRIBLE work that a woman could EVER do for pay and that ALL women involved with sex work should live in a world in which they don't have to do it. There are many problems with this argument, some of which have already been pointed out to you. The most basic I will repeat: women do not need or require or want men like you to speak on our behalf. Yes some women want out of sex work. Some women do not. Yeah it can be brutal work, but so can working the fryer shift at a fast food franchise.

As for your question to me about what kind of "need" for sex leads someone to purchase sex, have you ever watched porn? A lot of porn is now free, so one could argue that anyone who consumes free porn is far far worse than someone who purchases sex, since at least that person is PAYING for it.

Sure buying sex is a luxury, but it depends where one goes. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Lots of Hooters restaurants in the suburbs in my town. No sex involved there. I think you get thrown out for any groping, but I could be wrong.

Oh, and my use of "gay brainwashing" was in line with your "men having sex with women" argument, martin. Also, it was silly.

Maysie Maysie's picture

P.S. The scuttlebutt (pun intended) I hear from sex workers and one dominatrix I've spoken to is the higher the class/status level of the client and the whiter the collar, the more likely he will want to be dominated / spanked / humiliated. I have a whole feminist analysis about why that makes complete sense to me, but sadly, that would be more thread drift. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

martin dufresne

Hi BigCityGal,
You write:

"I felt the same way about johns as you, martin, until I saw Mirha Soleil-Ross' performance at Buddies in Bad Times Theatre a few years ago. She helped me broaden my rather closed mind, and got rid of ideas like "all johns are power-hungry fuckwads who want to buy women to lord it over them for 30 or 60 minutes"."

[img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] Eek, I didn't know I thought that... My words - above - are much less caricatural.

"...The model "The client exploits the worker completely. The client has all the control, the worker has none" falls apart when we look at male workers, regardless of the gender of the client."

Again, I am NOT party to that caricature. And I agree that prostituted males - youths, usually - have a somewhat different experience. They are, after all, males in a male-supremacist world.

Re: day care workers' conditions. BiCityGal asks: "Where's your outrage at that, martin?"

I am outraged at all forms of sexist exploitation, and I do advocate for day care workers to be better paid, among other struggles. Still, I make a difference between spaces where almost all workers love their job and their charges and try to improve their conditions through generally feminist political action, and those where 95% of women say they hate their jobs/johns and they want out - only to be falsely essentialized as fulfilled, funky and free "sex workers" by the sexploitation industry and its hacks and neo-lib apologists.

[b]I think it does makes a difference whether the person pissing on you is an infant or a white adult male with too much disposable income and political might/police protection.[/b]

You also ask: "I'll ask again: why the obsession with prostitution?"

Hey, isn't it the thread theme?
Actually, prostitution comes fourth in my order of political prorities/activities. I have done more work on the male-supremacist backlash, domestic violence and family law issues.

BigCityGal: "...you seem to be fetishizing prostitution as THE MOST HORRIBLE work that a woman could EVER do for pay and that ALL women involved with sex work should live in a world in which they don't have to do it."

I am simply advocating for a world where NO ONE is allowed to use his wealth to buy someone else's sex life, or profit from that "trade" as pimps and traffickers do day in and day out. We aren't there yet, but I am hopeful that the male grip can be loosened.

BigCityGal: "...women do not need or require or want men like you to speak on our behalf."

Sorry, but I haven't done that. Contrary to the guys here, my focus has clearly been on men's choices. Many women do ask me and men in general to do their part in confronting exploitive and assaulting men - and that includes pimps, johns, traffickers and politicians.

You also ask: "As for your question to me about what kind of "need" for sex leads someone to purchase sex, have you ever watched porn? A lot of porn is now free, so one could argue that anyone who consumes free porn is far far worse than someone who purchases sex, since at least that person is PAYING for it."

Porn consumers pay too, in various ways, but I don't reaklly see how your argument addresses men's alleged "need for" sex, at their conditions.

BigCityGal: "Sure buying sex is a luxury, but it depends where one goes. Lots of Hooters restaurants in the suburbs(...)"

[img]confused.gif" border="0[/img] Colour me confused... My point is simply that prostitution happens because of the buyers' excessive wealth and power over, not because of any one's particular "need" for sex, something that is demonstrably inaccurate and would have plenty of other solutions if it weren't.

You also write: "...the higher the class/status level of the client and the whiter the collar, the more likely he will want to be dominated / spanked / humiliated. I have a whole feminist analysis about why that makes complete sense to me, but sadly, that would be more thread drift."

I don't know. Going that route can't be worse than some of the prostitution-is-great-for-you-women anonymous right-wing drivel I have read from benevolent males above.

Women in prostitution used by politicians and ambassadors in the U.S. have pointed out in a book ("City of Eros"?) that playing masochist is indeed one of power brokers' ways of reversing reality and "lording it over" to the people they dump on the rest of the year.

I guess they want to know how the other 99,9% of us live. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks for replying seriously.

[ 17 October 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

martin dufresne

[url=http://www.worldmarchofwomen.org/index_html/en?set_language=en]World March of Women Manifesto[/url] – 17th October 200713-10-2007

We are once again mobilising on 17th October in order to denounce and demand an end to the oppression of women and to the domination, exploitation, egotism and unbridled quest for profit breeding injustice, war, conquest and violence.

Our feminist struggles and those of our foremothers on every continent have forged new freedoms for us, our daughters and sons and all the young girls and boys who will walk the earth after us. In 2000, we collected 5 million signatures demanding the end of poverty and violence against women. In 2005 we took to the streets again, inviting humanity to join us in our struggle for Equality, Freedom, Justice, Peace and Solidarity, weaving our dreams at the same time as we wove and constructed our global quilt.

Today, as before, we denounce capitalism, patriarchy and their institutions - such as transnational corporations and national oligarchies - that extract profit through: discrimination, oppression and exploitation of our peoples and especially of women; the looting of our territories, water, earth, biodiversity and sources of energy; the non-recognition of our individual and collective rights. We condemn these systems, which are sustained by the privileges held by men over women, of whites over blacks and indigenous peoples, as well as the exclusion of lesbians, immigrants, and many other life situations, by them considered “abnormal”. We denounce their repressive character and the criminalisation of our struggles.

This 17th October – the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty – we draw attention to the reality lived by us as women: our work within our families and community is not recognised and increases with every public service budget cut, we have less ownership and control of resources, we have lower salaries, our employment conditions are precarious and companies control our sexuality and bodies. We do not have the same educational opportunities and our knowledge and qualifications are less recognised. [b]The links between poverty and violence against women manifests itself in the trafficking of women and sexual exploitation, in feminicide, in the use of women’s bodies as spoils of war.[/b]

We recognise the various forms of oppression against women in all four corners of the world. We have demonstrated many times - and we will continue to do so - against the military occupations of Palestine, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iraq. At this time, we particularly want to show our solidarity with women struggling against the military dictatorship in Burma, who played a central role during the initial protests against rises in fuel prices and thus ‘opened the way’ for monks, students and the general population. We support our sisters in Costa Rica in their NO vote in the national referendum on the subject of the Central American Free-Trade Agreement with the USA. We commit ourselves to the struggle to overcome the terrible violence suffered by women in the armed conflicts in the regions of Kivu in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Darfur, in western Sudan.

We reaffirm our pathways in the struggle against poverty and violence against women:

Women’s economic autonomy and the redistribution of wealth: Decent employment, along with workers rights and fair remuneration; management, use and control of resources and means of life; strengthening of the solidarity economy; valorisation of women’s reproductive and productive work. Non-payment of external debts that threaten the national sovereignty of countries, and surveillance of new loans. Non-negotiation or signing of free-trade agreements, whose aim is the protection of transnational corporations’ interests.

For food sovereignty and against the privatisation of nature: self-management of our environmental resources based on a development model that respects the basic needs of present and future generations. The right to maintain our means of life, to produce our own food in the way we want to and to feed ourselves according to our own cultural traditions.

[b]No to violence against women: Fight against sexist violence, which is the instrument of control of our lives, our bodies and our sexuality, that turns us into objects subject to the desires of others.[/b] Commitment and practical actions on the part of the State and of society – particularly social movements – in the prevention and punishment of violence against women.

Peace and demilitarisation: To put an end to impunity and the use of women’s bodies as spoils of war and of rape as a weapon of war. Participation of women in the resolution of conflicts. Policies for disarmament and against occupations and foreign military presence, including military bases and exercises.

We will march until all women are free from oppression!

Granja do Ulmeiro, Portugal, 8th October, 2007

International Committee of the World March of Women

[i](emphasis added)[/i]

[ 17 October 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

jrose

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