quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Yelling?[/b]
Sorry... [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 16 December 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Teen killed by father another misogynist act II
Sat, 2007-12-15 11:16
#52
Sat, 2007-12-15 11:37
#53
quote:
1. Why do men always want to make it about them too?
As long as it is men commiting the acts of violence towards women, it is inpart about them Remind. But I'll quit this line of thought, sorry for the intrusion.
Sat, 2007-12-15 12:01
#54
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:
[b]As long as it is men commiting the acts of violence towards women, it is inpart about them Remind. But I'll quit this line of thought, sorry for the intrusion.[/b]
If men were so concerned about violence against women, and getting rid of patriarchy, why are we not seeing endless threads about it? Started by men calling to action other men to halt the violence and misogyny? These questions are trhetorical btw, I by no means want to hear about the plight of men.
-----------------------------
Yelling is unacceptable and is implied violence against women, or a woman it is being directed at...
Passive aggressive "sorry for the intrusion" is no better.
Sat, 2007-12-15 12:24
#55
quote:
If men were so concerned about violence against women, and getting rid of patriarchy, why are we not seeing endless threads about it?
Thats exactly what I'm asking when I try to point out that this is inpart about men. It is interesting to see that it's almost soley male posters trying to pass this off on religion and not the patriarchal society.
Sat, 2007-12-15 13:25
#56
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:
[b]Thats exactly what I'm asking when I try to point out that this is inpart about men. It is interesting to see that it's almost soley male posters trying to pass this off on religion and not the patriarchal society.[/b]
Very interesting indeed. Thanks for your posts and Reminds.
Sat, 2007-12-15 13:35
#57
quote:
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
[b]while I am in agreement that linking this murder to religion is wrong, I am just as concerned that this murder appears to be placed on the shoulders of the teen murdered, what with various groups stating in the media releases about "the way teenagers are today" . She had it coming because she is a teenager that challenges the authority of her parents? [/b]
I heard an interview with an alderperson on CBC where the alderperson was quick to blame the parents of an accused teenager because she "had raised three children who never got in trouble" so obviously lesser mortals should be condemned for not meeting her standards.
It is very unfair for parents to criticise other parents by placing themselves on a pedestal but for a publicly elected official to condemn the parents of an accused on national radio without benefit of any facts is unconscionable.
Sat, 2007-12-15 14:35
#58
Meanwhile remember this story?
quote:
Father Pleads Gulity In Triple Murder Of Wife And Kids
Friday December 14, 2007
CityNews.ca StaffA case that began on March 6, 2006 finally ended Friday with an admission of guilt in a terrible tragedy. It was back on that cold morning more than a year ago that police arrived at an address in Aurora. But what left them chilled wasn't the weather - it was a crime scene unlike any they'd ever come across.
They discovered the body of a woman and two small children lying dead in their beds in a home on a quiet street. All three had been beaten to death. The victims were 41-year-old Wendy La Fleche, her seven year old daughter Victoria and her son Jesse. His life had barely begun - he was just three years of age.
[url=http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_17703.aspx]Had they been Muslim instead .....[/url]
Sat, 2007-12-15 14:42
#59
From today's National Post:
quote:
I feel saddened by the fact that islam and South Asian culture has been put on trial here rather than the actions of an abusive man/father. What is interesting to me is that in the past few days, along side Aqsa’s death have also been front page stories about Pickton’s trial. We don’t hear things like, [b]all B.C. farmers should hang their heads in shame or that this is a great day of shame for white Canadian farmers across the nation, or that perhaps if we ban farming, these tragedies would never happen. [/b]*But we do hear that maybe if we banned the veil, this tragedy never would never have happened. In terms of inter-generational conflict and culture clash. This is not an “ethnic” phenomenon. All parents and teens clash with one another over boundaries of independence and issues of freedom. In fact it is part of a parent’s duty to tell their teens what to do and not to do, when to come home and not to come home, and many parents may argue over modes of dress and hair, tattoos, piercings, baggy pants or tight clothes. If parents had absolutely no boundaries or guidelines for their teens, that would fall under neglect. But if these allegations are true, this father seriously crossed the line in terms of parenting, and used his power as a parent, as an older person. This is not acceptable, period.Now that we have framed the discussion, I think it is important to discuss the ways some people use culture and religion to justify and perpetuate abuse and to look at the ways violence and abuse and gender/patriarchy manifest themselves within the South Asian community. I think the fact that Aqsa was a teenager, a young woman and a child of immigrant parents in Canada has much to say about what she may have experienced. Though her experience is speculation at this point. Let’s talk about the dilemmas young women in general who may find themselves at the crossroads of their own community’s expectations and that of mainstream Canadian society....
*Bold is mine.
[url=http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2007/12/15/a-dia... dialogue on the Aqsa Parvez case[/url]
Sat, 2007-12-15 14:47
#60
remind
Exactly mary123, and this is exactly why violents act against women must be framed as just that!
Sat, 2007-12-15 15:04
#61
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
[b]Meanwhile remember this story?[url=http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_17703.aspx]Had they been Muslim instead .....[/url][/b]
I live just blocks away, thanks for the update.
Sat, 2007-12-15 15:07
#62
RevolutionPlease
There were very racist columns in the Toronto Sun today. I'm not sure how to fight this. Canada is very mysoginist.
[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: RevolutionPlease ]
Sun, 2007-12-16 04:05
#63
[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/286060]Girl's funeral "secretly" changed locations, leaving mourners showing up at a non-event.[/url]
quote:
A day they expected to include waves of grief ebbed back into bitterness and anger for the friends and peers of Aqsa Parvez as they realized they'd been excluded from her funeral."They tricked us," said Konnor Williams, 16, who had known Parvez for three years. "I'm very upset and very angry right now. I feel cheated out of my friend's funeral. It's just not right."
Many of Parvez's closest friends turned up yesterday at a large mosque in Mississauga, the Islamic Centre of Canada, for Parvez's funeral. But they discovered the funeral had suddenly become "private," held at a secret location. Some speculated the family decided on the change after the intense attention the case had been given in the media and on the Internet.
Though the funeral was scheduled for 1:30 p.m., in fact it happened much earlier, a mosque official said. They also learned that, by that time, her body had already been buried for hours.
Many of the friends headed to the Meadowvale Cemetery in Brampton, some driven by their parents, only to meet another hurdle.
What jerks. If they wanted a private funeral, they should have just had one, instead of setting up a "dummy" funeral in order to stand up all her friends. Especially offensive considering the (alleged) circumstances of her death, and who had her best interests at heart.
Sun, 2007-12-16 04:15
#64
I think that if the motive for killing a girl in a religious Christian family was because she was refusing to fulfill some sort of religious requirement, then people probably WOULD be shining a spotlight on the religion in question. It would be kind of ridiculous NOT to try to analyze how this guy's religious beliefs inspired him to kill his daughter.
The difference here is, of course, the assumption that ALL religious Muslims would do something like this, or that all Muslims subscribe to exactly the same view of Islam - whereas you can be sure that no one would assume that about all religious Christians. Some people assume that any Muslim who is strongly religious or observant is necessarily a zealot and a bigot who is willing to die or murder for their religion.
But people don't assume that about all religious Christians.
Sun, 2007-12-16 08:44
#65
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I think that if the motive for killing a girl in a religious Christian family was because she was refusing to fulfill some sort of religious requirement, then people probably WOULD be shining a spotlight on the religion in question. It would be kind of ridiculous NOT to try to analyze how this guy's religious beliefs inspired him to kill his daughter.The difference here is, of course, the assumption that ALL religious Muslims would do something like this, or that all Muslims subscribe to exactly the same view of Islam - whereas you can be sure that no one would assume that about all religious Christians.[/b]
I think Michelle is bang on here. While I think it's very clear this was an act of violence by a man against a woman and it should not be seen a only a religious issue, if what we're hearing is correct than a strict religious ideology played a significant role. It might be worthwhile to examine how so many religions are patriarchal in themselves. But, if this had been a white Christian man who similarly had strict religious beliefs he was trying to enforce, this story would probably not be used as a indictment of all Christians. The patriarchal framework probably wouldn't be used either. It would be played up as one sick man and an isolated incident. However, because this family is Muslim and the story is breaking at a time when certain segments of the media have been hoping on the Islamophobic band wagon, a story like this inevitably casts a shadow on all Muslims. Instead of explaining how many religions enforce the patriarchy, this only becomes about one religion and it's framed as 'them' versus 'us.' So Islam is portrayed as backwards (and implicitly suggests other religions are not) and society at large gets a free pass.
Sun, 2007-12-16 08:58
#66
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[b]Does a disabled man benefit when his nurse is beaten so badly by her husband or lover or father that she can't go into work?Does a gay man benefit when his female best friend is killed by her lover or father or husband?[/b]
I don't want to speak for remind, so I hopes she corrects me if I get this wrong, but I don't think her statement that all men benefit from violence against women necessarily means that all men benefit equally - just that to a degree they benefit.
I think it has to do with questions of privilege. So, while an individual man may lose a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend as the result of violence against women, all men have their male privilege reconfirmed. If a man is a member of another oppressed or disadvantaged group/category he will not have the same degree of privilege than other men may have, but still privilege in relation to women.
I'm not sure if this made any sense. Can anyone tackle this point in a manner that makes more sense?
Sun, 2007-12-16 09:13
#67
Not me, thanks. CMOT appears to have a giant chip on his shoulder. His outbursts here IMO, appear to show that he has some animosity toward the very idea of patriarchy and the role of men in female dominance and objectification. I get the distinct impression he is quite pissed at the very idea of it.
Sun, 2007-12-16 11:47
#68
Maysie
Will S you said it perfectly. I wouldn't change a word.
quote:
Will S: I don't want to speak for remind, so I hopes she corrects me if I get this wrong, but I don't think her statement that all men benefit from violence against women necessarily means that all men benefit equally - just that to a degree they benefit.I think it has to do with questions of privilege. So, while an individual man may lose a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend as the result of violence against women, all men have their male privilege reconfirmed. If a man is a member of another oppressed or disadvantaged group/category he will not have the same degree of privilege than other men may have, but still privilege in relation to women.
As for the more and more information we're getting about what happened, I think the first place the MSM went poking about was the "hijab issue", which also happens to be a classic First vs Second generation stereotype but has a basis in patriarchy. Many 2nd gen young women (and Canadian-born young women!) struggle in ways that their brothers don't, against sexism in the family. But stories about non-Muslim and/or non-immigrant young women aren't helping the Islamophobic agenda these days, so they don't get the spotlight.
Sun, 2007-12-16 15:47
#69
[ 16 December 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Mon, 2007-12-17 10:26
#70
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Will S:
[b]I don't want to speak for remind, so I hopes she corrects me if I get this wrong, but I don't think her statement that all men benefit from violence against women necessarily means that all men benefit equally - just that to a degree they benefit.I think it has to do with questions of privilege. So, while an individual man may lose a wife, mother, daughter, sister, friend as the result of violence against women, all men have their male privilege reconfirmed. If a man is a member of another oppressed or disadvantaged group/category he will not have the same degree of privilege than other men may have, but still privilege in relation to women.
I'm not sure if this made any sense. Can anyone tackle this point in a manner that makes more sense?[/b]
Thank you for fleshing this out, your words are absolutely correct and make perfect sense.
Mon, 2007-12-17 11:39
#71
remind
Here is a snippet and from a link I came across when visiting BnR, it sums it up.
quote:
Aqsa Parvez was probably murdered by her father because of some "cultural" battle. (the 911 tape has a man saying he had killed his daughter)[b]Culture? Yes. The prevailing cuture of men. The only way to change this? Is to change the prevailing culture Worldwide to a culture of humanity.[/b]
...Light a candle for Aqsa Parvez, and all the women of the world.
*bolding mine.
[url=http://www.acreativerevolution.ca/node/527]http://www.acreativerevolutio...
Mon, 2007-12-17 12:28
#72
The authour of the piece remind linked to above lost me when she equates horrific cultural practices like stoning and female genital mutilation with purity balls and wage disparity. Yeah, our "'free' Western society" has a ways to go, but we're centuries ahead of a lot of other societies. That's not smugness: that's a fact.
Mon, 2007-12-17 12:32
#73
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Black Dog:
[b]The authour of the piece remind linked to above lost me when she equates horrific cultural practices like stoning and female genital mutilation with purity balls and wage disparity. Yeah, our "'free' Western society" has a ways to go, but we're centuries ahead of a lot of other societies. That's not smugness: that's a fact.[/b]
No it is not fact actually, it is falsely based smugness.
Mon, 2007-12-17 12:36
#74
It is and it isn't Black Dog... Simply because it manifests in manners that you interpret to be less brutal doesn't mean it's the same thing manifesting over and over again. It's still Patriarchy, you're just arguing ours is more acceptable... Is a physical act of violence really less brutal than emotional ones?
One of my roomie's friends was apparently a friend of her boyfriend... Not quite sure how true this claim was, but I figured I'd share the viewpoint I got from him with the board. It was NOT anti-muslim, infact the religious aspect never even came up... His viewpoint was entirely family. How could a parent possibly turn on someone he was supposed to protect at all cost? It was interesting to hear the viewpoint that it's the father failing at his duty to protect his children (ultimately from himself)... The words for the brother that is being charged for obstructing justice wasn't much better, borderline vigilante justice. He took consolidation that the guy was likely going to get severely beaten by other inmates.
I wonder how widely held that stance is?
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
Mon, 2007-12-17 13:17
#75
quote:
No it is not fact actually, it is falsely based smugness.
Oh so female genital mutilation, death sentences for adultery and rape victims, honour killings and official and community sanction of these practices as acceptable norms is a feature of life in the west?
For all the issues women in our society face, I think the fact that we've transcended so many of the practices that are commonplace in other parts of the world to this day is worth celebrating. IMV, it's incredibly patronizing and insulting to equate the two.
Noise:
quote:
It is and it isn't Black Dog... Simply because it manifests in manners that you interpret to be less brutal doesn't mean it's the same thing manifesting over and over again.
I'm not arguing that they aren't manifestations of the same root phenomenon. I'm simply saying the form of those manifestations matters a great deal.
quote:
It's still Patriarchy, you're just arguing ours is more acceptable...
Well, given the false choice of the two, I'd say ours is the more acceptable form of patriarchy.
quote:
Is a physical act of violence really less brutal than emotional ones?
I trust you mean the reverse?
Mon, 2007-12-17 13:31
#76
Maysie
Black Dog, there are huge problems when a situation like what happened to Aqsa Parvez is used to promote an agenda, in this case, that Muslim culture and Islam in general are "so much worse" than Western culture and Christianity.
There are problems when "Islam" is blamed for what happened to her.
There are problems when "the individual" is blamed for what happened to her.
But declaring that we in the West are so much more "civilized" is simply using this horrific tragedy to promote an Islamophobic agenda. There's nothing progressive about this.
Black Dog, if the following issues are so important to you:
quote:
Oh so female genital mutilation, death sentences for adultery and rape victims, honour killings and official and community sanction of these practices as acceptable norms is a feature of life in the west?
then you can no doubt find groups of women who are working to end these practices in their own countries and help them in ways they would deem appropriate. Google is your friend.
But you [b]really[/b] care, don't you? You're not just throwing out those old, tired and boring stereotypes are you? I'm sure you've already educated yourself about the Muslim feminist movements that exist in many of the countries in which practices above are done. Yay! Good for you. (P.S. Big rolleye smiley for this paragraph.)
Mon, 2007-12-17 13:48
#77
quote:
For all the issues women in our society face, I think the fact that we've transcended so many of the practices that are commonplace in other parts of the world to this day is worth celebrating. IMV, it's incredibly patronizing and insulting to equate the two.
We've transcended in personal freedoms, standard of life (using our measures of that standard of course), and several other measures of society that dictate how this Patriarchy manifests itself. It's a flawed notion to say our Patriarchy is 'more acceptable' as it's the same Patriarchy. Not sure if I can make this any more clear... It's the same Patriarchy you are trying to celebrate, the differences you are celebrating are not differences in the patriarchy, it's differences in the society. You are incorrectly celebrating the differences in society under the false label of a more acceptalbe patriarchy. clearer?
Word of caution... I think you're bordering on trivializing the experiences of women in our society with 'its better than other places in the world, so lets celebrate'.
Mon, 2007-12-17 14:13
#78
quote:
Black Dog, there are huge problems when a situation like what happened to Aqsa Parvez is used to promote an agenda, in this case, that Muslim culture and Islam in general are "so much worse" than Western culture and Christianity.
Well, I wasn't talking about "Muslim culture and Islam in general". I'd say that any culture that accepts gender equality (even if it falls short in practice) is objectively superior to any culture that does not.
quote:
Black Dog, if the following issues are so important to you:
...
then you can no doubt find groups of women who are working to end these practices in their own countries and help them in ways they would deem appropriate. Google is your friend.But you really care, don't you? You're not just throwing out those old, tired and boring stereotypes are you? I'm sure you've already educated yourself about the Muslim feminist movements that exist in many of the countries in which practices above are done. Yay! Good for you. (P.S. Big rolleye smiley for this paragraph.)
I don't know how the existence of groups fighting to end these practices contradicts or disproves a single thing I've written.
Noise:
quote:
We've transcended in personal freedoms, standard of life (using our measures of that standard of course), and several other measures of society that dictate how this Patriarchy manifests itself. It's a flawed notion to say our Patriarchy is 'more acceptable' as it's the same Patriarchy.
...which is why I said it was a false choice.
quote:
It's the same Patriarchy you are trying to celebrate, the differences you are celebrating are not differences in the patriarchy, it's differences in the society. You are incorrectly celebrating the differences in society under the false label of a more acceptalbe patriarchy. clearer?
Again: I did not introduce the notion of an "acceptable patriarchy." Quite the opposite. To wit:
quote:
I'm not arguing that they aren't manifestations of the same root phenomenon. I'm simply saying the form of those manifestations matters a great deal.
quote:
Word of caution... I think you're bordering on trivializing the experiences of women in our society with 'its better than other places in the world, so lets celebrate'.
But trivializing the experiences of women in other societies by equating genital mutilation to the wage gap is a-ok?
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
Mon, 2007-12-17 14:48
#79
quote:
Well, I wasn't talking about "Muslim culture and Islam in general". I'd say that any culture that accepts gender equality (even if it falls short in practice) is objectively superior to any culture that does not.
But we aren't. Women still get raped beaten and humiliated on a daily basis. Regardless of how much skin our society allows women to show and inspite of the work of many activists our society is still very sexist.
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Mon, 2007-12-17 15:16
#80
quote:
But we aren't. Women still get raped beaten and humiliated on a daily basis. Regardless of how much skin our society allows women to show and inspite of the work of many activists our society is still very sexist.
Again, I never claimed the absence of sexism in our society. But I don't believe we can discuss this in binary "sexist/not sexist" terms. Even in terming our society as "very sexist," you're raising the question "'very sexist' in comparison to what?" Compared to an ideal, sexism free world, we're very sexist indeed. Compared to states where extreme manifestations of sexism and misogyny are fixtures of public policy, we're not very sexist. Again, it's relative, not absolute.
I don't understand the hesitation to recognize the progress we've made in our society wrt women's rights, progress that was made almost completely because women took it upon themselves to change the institutions that held them back. And today, this same process is still underway in many of the societies that I would consider at the back of the pack in terms of women's rights. How can one support the work of organizations and individuals around the world seeking to improve the lot of women in their societies without first acknowledging the scope and unique nature of the problems they face?
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
Mon, 2007-12-17 15:28
#81
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[b]Women still get raped beaten and humiliated on a daily basis.[/b]
And then stupid tabloid headline writers think it's cute to make light of it:
[url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/12132007/news/nationalnews/ike_beats_tina_to... 'beats' Tina to death[/url]
Mon, 2007-12-17 15:30
#82
remind
Blackdog, when low wages mean your children live in poverty with rotting teeth and go without glasses you cannot afford, because of misogyny and patriarchy, I would say it definitely compares equally to other instances around the world of the culture of men. manifesting itself.
But lets talk about the growing instances of labia reduction & beautification that is now occuring in our western world as a similar action. It is in response to what? The culture of man as those vaginas must look like a centerfold!
quote:
Labiaplasty (labia reduction & beautification) and other female cosmetic surgical procedures including Vaginoplasty (rejuvenation or tightening of the vagina) and Clitoral Unhooding (Hoodectomy), are becoming more popular as social acceptance of these cosmetic and reconstructive procedures continues toward mainstream. Labia surgery, which usually involves labia reduction—and vaginal rejuvenation, or tightening, are becoming as common today as other cosmetic procedures, including tummy tucks and breast augmentation. New advancements and techniques in Labiaplasty and Vaginoplasty typically lessen scarring, pain, recovery time, and show excellent results in the area sometimes referred to as Vaginal Cosmetic Surgery.
[url=http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/]http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/[/url]
So, are you going to stand on your falsely held beliefs that somehow the patriarchy that women suffer in the western world is somehow better than what they suffer elsewhere?
noise, he is not bordering on trivializing "the experiences of women in our society with 'its better than other places in the world, so lets celebrate'."
He is wrongly celebrating!
Mon, 2007-12-17 19:20
#83
quote:
Again, I never claimed the absence of sexism in our society. But I don't believe we can discuss this in binary "sexist/not sexist" terms. Even in terming our society as "very sexist," you're raising the question "'very sexist' in comparison to what?" Compared to an ideal, sexism free world, we're very sexist indeed. Compared to states where extreme manifestations of sexism and misogyny are fixtures of public policy, we're not very sexist. Again, it's relative, not absolute.
But even compared to other Western countries(Iceland, France, Spain) we have bad record when it comes to the welfare of women.
Tue, 2007-12-18 07:05
#84
quote:
I don't understand the hesitation to recognize the progress we've made in our society
That is a correct statement, until you add:
quote:
wrt women's rights
The progress was made in societies values of acceptable punishment and not womens rights. I think the figure is 8% of sexual assaults directed at women are reported in our society? Why is our methods of supressing worth celebrating over 'less acceptable' methods? It's not much different from seeing a soceity that jails and tortures political activists and then celebrating how much better we are because we only jail our activists.
ty for the clarification Remind, I hesitated in posting that as I was assuming the right to speak on behalf of women's experiences.
Tue, 2007-12-18 08:01
#85
remind:
quote:
So, are you going to stand on your falsely held beliefs that somehow the patriarchy that women suffer in the western world is somehow better than what they suffer elsewhere?
Read what I wrote:
quote:
I'm not arguing that they aren't manifestations of the same root phenomenon. I'm simply saying the form of those manifestations matters a great deal.
And I stand by the belief that women in our society by and large have it a helluva lot better than a great many women elsewhere.
Vaginal plastic surgery, fucked up as that may be, is not an analogue to forced genital mutilation IMO. maybe it's just me, but I see the distinction between a society where mostly poor women are forced to undergo the partial or total removal of their genitalia versus one where rich women chose to undergo labiaplasty. Yes, both are the result of the demands of patriarchal society, but the element of choice remains a key distinction.
CMOT
quote:
But even compared to other Western countries(Iceland, France, Spain) we have bad record when it comes to the welfare of women.
Which is why I said it's all relative. Others would seem to disagree.
Noise:
quote:
The progress was made in societies values of acceptable punishment and not womens rights. I think the figure is 8% of sexual assaults directed at women are reported in our society?
You don't think recognizing women as persons (something a great many states have yet to do), and affording at least a theoretical framework of equality isn't progress?
quote:
Why is our methods of supressing worth celebrating over 'less acceptable' methods?
Because, to use your terminology, our methods are less pervasive and less institutionalized than those of other societies.
quote:
It's not much different from seeing a soceity that jails and tortures political activists and then celebrating how much better we are because we only jail our activists.
Well, would you rather be jailed or jailed and tortured?
[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
Tue, 2007-12-18 08:28
#86
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Black Dog:
[b]I'm not arguing that they aren't manifestations of the same root phenomenon. I'm simply saying the form of those manifestations matters a great deal.[/b]
No, it is you who is not listening, the form of the manifestation, apparently only matters to men, as women know the form is exactly the same. Why do you men believe this "form matters"? I will tell you why, so you can pat yourselves on the back and say, wrongly I might add, "yes, we have a patriarchial society that oppresses women unjustly, but hey, no problem they aren't as badly oppressed as other women in other countries".
And then you take that erroneous notion, and take it a step further and think you have a right to feel superior, because men in the western world, according to you, are superior to men in other countries, because you believe, again wrongly, the manifestation of the [b]form[/b], of the culture of men makes it better for women of the western world.
Tue, 2007-12-18 08:31
#87
quote:
Well, would you rather be jailed or jailed and tortured?
This reduces to 'would you rather be surpressed or surpressed?' and celebrate it! I don't think there is any reason to celebrate either and celebration is at best a distraction used to hide the real issue. I also dislike the implied reaction of 'backwards society should learn to supress their women like we do' that this stance carries.
I do understand your point about how one form is more acceptable than another when interpreted using the contexts of our society, but it's at best a slight distraction from the larger issue. This topic started (in my view atleast) with attempting to obscure the underlying patriarchy by blaming Islam, or demonizing the father involved as being 'not one of us', when in truth it's a manifestation of patriarchy all along. I think that is where you'll find the majority of the protest in this thread lies.
Editted to add as she deserves repeating, if you're going to take any comment as a lesson from this thread, this is it:
quote:
I will tell you why, so you can pat yourselves on the back and say, wrongly I might add, "yes, we have a patriarchial society that oppresses women unjustly, but hey, no problem they aren't as badly oppressed as other women in other countries".
[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
One last comment:
quote:
Yes, both are the result of the demands of patriarchal society, but the element of choice remains a key distinction.
The choice has nothing to do with the patriarchy and instead lie in the realms of society, the differences you are pointing out ultimately come to one fundamental truth... There is no difference in the Patriarchy, only the society.
[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]
Tue, 2007-12-18 10:34
#88
quote:
No, it is you who is not listening, the form of the manifestation, apparently only matters to men, as women know the form is exactly the same.
Y'know I'm the first to admit that women can have perspectives on women's issues that men cannot. But this sounds an awful lot like a rhetorical trick.
quote:
Why do you men believe this "form matters"? [b]I will tell you why[/b], so you can pat yourselves on the back and say, wrongly I might add, "yes, we have a patriarchial society that oppresses women unjustly, but hey, no problem they aren't as badly oppressed as other women in other countries".
Again, I'd like to now how far this kind of crap would get me on this forum if the tables were turned and I were lecturing you. Chances are, I'd get a face full of comments about how typical it is of males to use such tactics as a silencer, probably followed by a warning from the mods that this is the feminism forum etc. Here's a deal, I won't tell you how you feel and why if you'll offer the same courtesy.
quote:
And then you take that erroneous notion, and take it a step further and think you have a right to feel superior, because men in the western world, according to you, are superior to men in other countries, because you believe, again wrongly, the manifestation of the form, of the culture of men makes it better for women of the western world.
First: I do have the right to feel superior, just as you have the right to feel I am wrong.
Second: You seem to be saying the ways in which the patriarchy manifests itself are irrelevant, which implies the issues facing women in the west are identical to those of other societies. Thus, a western woman looking for affordable childcare or pondering plastic surgery to conform to patriarchal beauty ideals is in the same boat as a woman facing the threat of genital mutilation, honour killings, forced marriage, or judicially sanctioned rape. While I'll agree with the basic framework that the patriarchy is at work in both, I will not agree that this fact trumps the specifics of the challenges each women faces and the relative severity of the consequences.
Noise:
quote:
This reduces to 'would you rather be surpressed or surpressed?' and celebrate it! I don't think there is any reason to celebrate either and celebration is at best a distraction used to hide the real issue. I also dislike the implied reaction of 'backwards society should learn to supress their women like we do' that this stance carries.
It should go without saying that saying A is better than B does not imply A is, in and of itself, desirable or good except as an alternative to B.
Tue, 2007-12-18 10:53
#89
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Black Dog:
[b]But this sounds an awful lot like a rhetorical trick.[/b]
Its not.
quote:
[b]Again, I'd like to now how far this kind of crap would get me on this forum if the tables were turned and I were lecturing you. Chances are, I'd get a face full of comments about how typical it is of males to use such tactics as a silencer, probably followed by a warning from the mods that this is the feminism forum etc. Here's a deal, I won't tell you how you feel and why if you'll offer the same courtesy.[/b]
Here is the deal, you are telling us how we women should feel apparently you feel you have the only POV. And I am telling you it is quite obvious what your view is and now I am telling you it is not a progressive one, and that I am correct in my in stating how you percieve things and why.
As you go on to say this:
quote:
[b]First: I do have the right to feel superior, [/b]
No actually you don't!
Tue, 2007-12-18 11:15
#90
Black Dog, I think there may have been a point, well upthread, when what you were saying served an illustrative purpose, in that others could rebut it. I personally learned a bit from reading others argue with you. That point has passed, and you're spinning your wheels.
I for one hold that you can feel as superior as you want, but the time for doing it on this forum has passed.
Tue, 2007-12-18 11:25
#91
quote:
Here is the deal, you are telling us how we women should feel apparently you feel you have the only POV.
Where did I say this? Citation, please.
quote:
And I am telling you it is quite obvious what your view is and now I am telling you it is not a progressive one, and that I am correct in my in stating how you percieve things and why.
In other words: you are telling me how I should feel and apparently you feel you have the only POV?
I'm not all that interested in whether or not my opinions conform to some unwritten progressive orthodoxy as much as I am with them being first and foremost accurate and logical.
quote:
No actually you don't!
And how is this different from the horrible crime you claim I'm committing on this thread?
And perhaps you can clarify why I have no right to my opinions. I'm really, really interested in hearing that one.
oldgoat:
I'm aware I'm spinning my wheels here. But in fairness, I'm simply trying to ensure my views are being represented accurately.
[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
Tue, 2007-12-18 11:31
#92
This is turning into one of those threads that just isn't supposed to happen on the feminism forum. Black Dog stay out of it now please.
Tue, 2007-12-18 13:06
#93
quote:
This is turning into one of those threads that just isn't supposed to happen on the feminism forum. Black Dog stay out of it now please.
You mean the kind where interlopers are blitzed with ad hominem attacks? Hilarious. I started a thread in the news section on this only to be told it belongs in feminism forum.
Whatever. Fuck it. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: Black Dog ]
Tue, 2007-12-18 13:08
#94
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]Black Dog, there are huge problems when a situation like what happened to Aqsa Parvez is used to promote an agenda, in this case, that Muslim culture and Islam in general are "so much worse" than Western culture and Christianity.There are problems when "Islam" is blamed for what happened to her.
There are problems when "the individual" is blamed for what happened to her.
[/b]
But it is ok when "men" are blamed for what happened to her?
Tue, 2007-12-18 13:45
#95
remind
quote:
Originally posted by kim2:
[b]But it is ok when "men" are blamed for what happened to her?[/b]
"Men" aren't being blamed, misogyny and the culture of men are.
Tue, 2007-12-18 13:55
#96
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]"Men" aren't being blamed, misogyny and the culture of men are.[/b]
It seems that there is still a generalization here. That being the 'culture of men and their hatred of women'.
That is a stereotype which is no different than blaming this incident solely on 'Islam'.
Tue, 2007-12-18 14:20
#97
remind
No kim, patriarchy, misogyny and the culture of men, is no stereotype, it is alive and well, and permiates all of the world.
Tue, 2007-12-18 16:00
#98
I'd call it the culture of masculinity.
Tue, 2007-12-18 16:06
#99
Frustrated Mess
I call it the culture of ownership. But your's works, too.
Tue, 2007-12-18 17:21
#100
Maysie
What remind, Stargazer and Frustrated Mess said.
And now the thread's too long and must be closed.