quote:
Calling women out for breaking the silence is wrong. Blaming them for going to the media is wrong. More of this needs to happen, at all levels. - BCG
They did not break the silence or speak out or go to the media until the sexism turned againt [b]them[/b]. They were complicit in the sexism when 'others' were the targetes until it stung them personally.
Not the kind of women or men who deserve progressives' support.
rural-Fransesca: Is that with tax? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
adam, please read my point #5. And #6. By no means do I feel these women are at the same level as workers making less than minimum wage, but harassment is harassment.
And adam, if you feel these women aren't deserving of progressives' support, that's fine. Don't support them. But I strongly disagree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]rural-Fransesca: Is that with tax? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img][/b]
Actually it's a Large Tim Hortons coffee (which I'd buy you if you were within coffee drinking reach - and if you liked Tim Hortons coffee - not that I'm trying to drift this thread with a renewed Tim's debate.....) [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
I hate going to chain franchises but will admit to enjoying the occasional ice cap, in any weather.
I am one of the women involved in the Bell case and I have read all of your comments with great interest.
To clarify a couple of points:
Firstly and most importantly, while the original Star article did a great job in bringing this important case into the public eye, it's focus on the war themed retreat and some of the simpler aspects of our claim took attention away from and trivialized some of the far deeper and more significant issues of gender discrimination that are at the heart of this case.
The numbers speak for themselves. In 2005 there were 4 executive women at BEV who reported to Gary Smith, BEV's President. We had very different skills, managerial styles, personalities, strengths, abilities and responsibilities there. But the one thing we had in common is that within one year all 4 of us were gone - involuntarily. The 10 male members who made up the balance of Mr. Smith's Senior Management committee, 5 of who were VPs and 5 of who were directors in 2005, are all still there and all are now VPs. Additionally many of those VPs have since been promoted into even bigger positions.
Bottom line - at BEV we women could do no right and the men could do no wrong. If you familiarize yourself with any of the specifics of the case you will see that in fact most of these men did many, many things wrong and that their actions and poor performances created many serious problems & potential liability for BEV.
In addition to working in an oppressive and hostile environment where we were routinely used as punching bags and scapegoats by our male colleagues, BEV retaliated against us and killed our careers long before this action ever became public. Any salary we earned in our brief tenure at BEV was burned up long ago and we have since remained unemployed. As senior executives we worked long and hard for many years, making many sacrifices, to achieve our positions only to have them blown away in a relative instant. And the publicity and exposure this case is generating certainly won't make things better.
No matter what you think of us, we are by no means the only women at BEV or the only women at all levels in companies throughout Canada who encounter this same discriminatory treatment every day. Change is needed and its cases like ours that move the bar forward for everyone. Please take some time to check out the facts and issues involved here before you judge. If nothing else it makes a great read. The HRC hearings are open to the public. We resume again on April 28th when Gary Smith will once again take the stand, having already testified for 5 days during the week of Jan 14. His testimony was quite enlightening and Bell's shareholders will find it of high interest.
Thank you for your information BellTell, it would be hoped that you win your case.
For as BCG so correctly pointed out:
quote:
...It still is wrong what those women went through...Calling women out for breaking the silence is wrong. Blaming them for going to the media is wrong. More of this needs to happen, at all levels.
Allthe best, BellTell, and this progressive woman is with you in your endeavors.
BellTell,
What was your and the other complainants' positions on Bell's (sexist) pay (in)equity issue? Have you expressed your displeasure to your employer? Have you spoken out?
Just wonderin'; and I'm not about to do the research;
Anybody remember when, three years ago, we at babble led the attack against the Bell "body parts" ad campaign ?
Were either of these women involved in that ? Either the design/approval of the campaign, or the response to the protest ?
Why, or why not ?
And I'm sure, to get along in this world economically, we have all made our deals with the devil. I don't think it's right to make potential or real hypocrisy the issue here-- other than it speaks to a larger issue.
quote:
No matter what you think of us, we are by no means the only women at BEV or the only women at all levels in companies throughout Canada who encounter this same discriminatory treatment every day. Change is needed and its cases like ours that move the bar forward for everyone.
There was a time when I believed this. I no longer believe this. I do not believe these things "trickle down" to other women. It might trickle sideways, or up, but not down.
There is no doubt in my mind that, if even a whiff of these allegations were true, I'd find on behalf of BellTell and the other executive.
Because it would be right and just.
But let us not forget that for the vast majority of women who suffer abuse at work cannot afford a lawyer and indeed do not really have access to the law in the way these two women have. They have access to complaints at the Human Rights tribunals, or complaints through the Employment Standards Act, both long, tiresome and intentionally confounding.
I suspect that BellTell will be successful in her suit. I hope she is. But it will do nothing for other women, other than to make people think there is some wider justice when in fact there is not.
By centering attention on this struggle to symbolize a wider social struggle goes further to co-opt a movement than anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]But let us not forget that for the vast majority of women who suffer abuse at work cannot afford a lawyer and indeed do not really have access to the law in the way these two women have.[...]
But it will do nothing for other women, other than to make people think there is some wider justice when in fact there is not.[/b]
Tommy, some complain that when unionized workers win rights (what with all their access to lawyers, resources, etc.), that it does nothing for the poorest, unemployed, etc. But that's not true, as we both know.
I'm not drawing a parallel, nor am I saying there's a "trickle-down" effect of a particular victory. But look at it the other way around. In a society where the wealthiest and most powerful women are still subject to discrimination, does that situation help or hurt the struggle of all women for equality and empowerment? I think the answer is obvious.
quote:
[b]By centering attention on this struggle to symbolize a wider social struggle goes further to co-opt a movement than anything else.[/b]
Who is "centring attention on this struggle" to symbolize anything at all?
Again, let's proceed by negatives. If progressive people, trade unionists etc. treat this struggle with indifference or scorn (as some have done here), how exactly does that help the "wider social struggle"?
I am taking their allegations at face value and I wish these women every success in their litigation - irrespective of whether they supported their sisters fighting for pay equity; irrespective of whether they only woke up a little bit when their own interests were on the line; and without any illusion whatsoever that their particular fight will have some profound real or even symbolic impact on the broader issues.
It's a simple question of which side we are on. We - not they.
Quite so, Tommy; I'm sure that few of us here have not mede our deals ... . I like your "trickle-up; maybe trickle-sideways; but never trickle-down" analysis. I had always thought as much, but never put it so well. The same goes for all disadvantaged categories.
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]There was a time when I believed this. I no longer believe this. I do not believe these things "trickle down" to other women. It might trickle sideways, or up, but not down.[/b]
quote:
Calling women out for breaking the silence is wrong. Blaming them for going to the media is wrong. More of this needs to happen, at all levels.
They broke no silence. They lodged a complaint only once they have been [b]personally [/b]affected, which falls squarely within the parameters of individualism, self-interest within which their corporate culture operates.
[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]
Actually, maybe we could argue the broader aspects of this in another forum?
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]Actually, maybe we could argue the broader aspects of this in another forum?[/b]
I agree. But, so far as I can see, these two women were top level execs at Bell back three years ago. Before we give give either any kudos for their fight on behalf of feminism, let's hear that, (and I'd accept even their post on this), that they took the right stand. It's easy to be a feminist, or an anti-racist, or whatever when it suits your personal agenda.
Before lending any support to these two, I'd like to see some evidence of prior committment. Beyond that, if their case sets a precedent that helps others less privilegded; that's good.
I don't have to like a woman or her politics to believe she's suffering the effects the patriarchy. I think questioning their past politics is improper in the forum. It's like asking how black are you or how gay.
BellTell I'm glad you joined us to share your story.
To the men who have posted since BellTell's post, specifically adam, Tommy and James:
For. Fucks. Sake.
Am I the only one who is greatly irked by the gigantic judgmental voice coming from allegedly progressive men? adam and James particularly have been hostile, blaming, and putting these women under the frikkin microscope and for what? For the women to prove they are worthy of having their harassment suit taken seriously by you specific male babblers? You kidding me?
The pile-on stinks, and it's pretty gross how these same men are doing this "what has she done for feminism lately?" schtick. What have YOU guys done for frikkin feminism lately? Anything? I didn't think so.
I tried to be all calm and reasonable and allowing for complexities upthread and have not seen that inclination returned.
P.S. Edited to add: I'm as surprised as anyone about how much I've become engaged in this issue, but I strongly feel that we cannot allow moral judgments about who is "worthy" on a personal level to gauge whether we put our support behind an item in the news that's about a clear case of injustice. We'd never support anyone, seriously! This exact bullshit is used against women and men of colour, and FN men and women all the frikking time! If I find it wrong in those contexts then I find it wrong here, which I do.
[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]
O.K. scout; I take that premise.
But, if it seems that in the recent past someone has gone along (silently, for their own benefit) with sexism, racicsm, or genderism, should we then take up their cause on those grounds ? I dunno.
Hear hear. [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
But, if it seems that in the recent past someone has gone along (silently, for their own benefit) with sexism, racicsm, or genderism, should we then take up their cause on those grounds ? I dunno.
So you didn't actually get what I said?
I'm not sure how much more of this stuff I can take on babble. [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
adam stratton
James
Tommy_Paine
When you got an advantage due to your penis, did you stand up and decline it, to help women out?
When you got extra attention in school during math, did you tell the teacher not to bother but to go help Susie?
Do you go up to men in bars and tell them to stop drinking Coors Light because thier advertising campaign is demeaning to women?
..................
Bell Tell - thank you.
Thank you for your story, thank you for fighting on your own behalf.
Pardon the unbelievably absurd over the top impossible standard these men are holding you to; they have no clue what it means to achieve what you want, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you.
Your fight will send a message that women can fight back. I hope, when you win, you take a vacation, in a really hot spot, and lie on a beach and hold a cold one high and salute all the good things in life.
Bigcityal;
F**k you. No, actually, I'd sooner not.
I've been fighting these battles, here and elsewhere, much longer than you have. And unless you are also an unemployed amputee, I am also more "disabled and disadvantaged" than you.
So, I think I am entitled to express my thouhts and observations.
Get of your priviledged high-horse and screw off.
Actually, now that I look at your profile, I've been fighting your battles before you were even born. I deserve nothing but "thank-you"s from you; not criticisms. how dare you
[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: James ]
quote:
Bigcityal;
F**k you. No, actually, I'd sooner not.I've been fighting these battles, here and elsewhere, much longer than you have. And unless you are also an unemployed amputee, I am also more "disabled and disadvantaged" than you.
So, I think I am entitled to express my thouhts and observations.
Get of your priviledged high-horse and screw off.
Actually, now that I look at your profile, I've been fighting your battles before you were even born. I deserve nothing but "thank-you"s from you; not criticisms. how dare you
James you went way to far. You want thanks for all you done? Is that it? You get told to piss off, again, for not getting it, like the 200th time on babble and you respond with a sexually hostile attack on BCG and then throw in ageism for kick and then entered the disadvantage olympics! How do we need allies like you?
Nice, James.
quote:
Originally posted by James:
[b]Bigcityal;F**k you. No, actually, I'd sooner not.
I've been fighting these battles, here and elsewhere, much longer than you have. And unless you are also an unemployed amputee, I am also more "disabled and disadvantaged" than you.
So, I think I am entitled to express my thouhts and observations.
Get of your priviledged high-horse and screw off.
Actually, now that I look at your profile, I've been fighting your battles before you were even born. I deserve nothing but "thank-you"s from you; not criticisms. how dare you
[/b]
quote:
Originally posted by rural - Francesca:
[b]Do you go up to men in bars and tell them to stop drinking Coors Light because thier advertising campaign is demeaning to women?.[/b]
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I also tackle large corporations; some of whom are essential suppliers, on the basis of demeaning sexist advertising.
Wow your my hero! Do you want me on my knees now James?
Unreal! This thread, with another thread following much the same path. I can find about 5 recent threads where men should have just listened. And once one gets called on it, more come running to the rescue. Fed. Up.
James, forgetting everything else, that was a sexist attack on BCG, and the insinuation that anyone here should shut up and thank you is beyond the pale. You don't get to talk to people that way here, and especially not as a man talking to a woman of colour in the g-d feminism forum. As Scout has indicated, it's not the first time. Grow up.
Whatever, Coyote
We have here all noted your level of maturity and dialogue. If you have an issue, spare the rest and take it to P.M.
Seriously, do none of you men realize that for these women to have made to where they were, in the corporate world, they had to fight patriarchy even damn step of the way? Most likely doing double the work, than their male counterparts, taking on more shit jobs than their male counterparts, tolerating rampent sexism that their male counterparts do not have to, working longer hours than their male counterparts.
And in the end the glass ceiling still got them, and what the fuck does that say? It says "women stay the fuck out, we will use you abuse and dispose of you, so it matters not what you do, because it is a man's world."
And you guys are proving that even YOU stand behind/with those corporate sexist exploitive men, in putting women in their place.
How does it feel standing in solidarity with your gender in the coporate world? Fucking good I hope, because progressive men, as evidenced here, are no allies with progressive women.
As far as I am concerned you men have been spewing nothing but hate towards women, when you tell us not to stand with our gender, as they were only out for themselves and would do nothing for other women. When just their fighting to be there and then fighting when patriarchy slammed them is being there for other women's struggles to reach equality.
And how fucking dare you think we need to be told what to perceive in this situation, or in any other?! Let alone tell us what we should and should not being doing or who we should be supporting, or not.
It is quite obvious who you men are out for in this equation, and it sure and the hell isn't for women, nor to assist women in gaining equality, I would say it is quite the opposite.
Fuck...forget it.
I wish BellTell all the best. James you are completely out of line.
Scout - totally agree. WTF is it with these threads always ending up like this? Men, stay the hell out if you have nothing to contribute except the same bullshit. We hear you, over and over and over again with the same points.
Oh and again James, we don't owe you sweet FA.
It is unfortunate that the discussion came to a personal level such as Whether one did or did't do this and that and attacks.
Neither James, nor Tommy_Paine nor myself but rather the Executives of BEV who are being hailed as poster boys/girls for gender equality or feminism. A bit of scrutiny does not hurt, thought I!
As a progressive, I do not lend my solidarity and support on the sole basis of one's colour, gender, place of origin, nationality, ethnicity, religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation or any such characteristics.
I support, vote for and express solidarity with those who stand for social justice, equality, peace and cooperation, all antithesis to the corporate operations, goals and pursuits for which Executives such as the complainants 'perform'.
quote:
Originally posted by James:
[b]Whatever, CoyoteWe have here all noted your level of maturity and dialogue. If you have an issue, spare the rest and take it to P.M.[/b]
god forbid one man calls another man on his actions!
And nice silencer James, making a completely false attack upon coyote, and trying to speak for everyone with your use of "we", and frankly "we" have not noticed it, which was followed by the oh so clever rejoinder, not, which basically says; if you are going to further chastise me, let's take it private and discuss it as men, between men.
Oh, and james, we women owe you sweet fuck all. if progressive men were on side with women seeking equality rights we would be a hellva lot closer than we are right now.
As for you yelling at BCG, that she should be thanking you, I think fucking not to even a greater degree.
quote:
Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]I support, vote for and express solidarity with those who stand for social justice, equality, peace and cooperation, all antithesis to the corporate operations, goals and pursuits for which Executives such as the complainants 'perform'.[/b]
Well, I'm going to try this again.
If a woman, or an Aboriginal person, or a lesbian, or a homeless person, or anyone, is the victim of an injustice... do you ask whether the victims "stand for social justice, equality, ..." before you support them?
This is the same "logic" that whitewashes the invasion of Afghanistan by emphasizing how reactionary the Taliban are.
If you can't condemn sexism in the executive club, you will be complicit in it everywhere.
O.K. Fine
All else aside. I once lost a job that would have secured my future because I hired a female (she was best qualified) and would not back down when the muncipality I was working for said " It's a guys' job - directing linesmen". I refused to back down. I could have - easily.
If I had, I would today be retired, comfortable and happy.
As it is, I am broke, no prosects, and facing the plastic surgeon again this week.
But, I have no right to speak of the trials of advancing rights. fine. I'll butt out.
Carry on.
quote:
Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]A bit of scrutiny does not hurt, thought I.[/b]
Oh poor beleagered adam. Not by a long shot.
A bit of scrutiny does not hurt? WTF? Do you seriously think we women are not able to scrutinize things for ourselves? And determine just what the scrutiny consists of and what implications there are, or are not?
quote:
[b]As a progressive, I do not lend my solidarity and support on the sole basis of one's colour, gender...[/b]
bull shit, you are formulating your thoughts and opinions from a male POV, that has been flavoured by patriarchy and its privileges.
[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
dear remind;
Coyote is male ? I'm sorry, I had no idea. Nor does it matter. Not to me, probably not to anyone else.
You attack me on that basis? On a "progressive website"? When I hadn't even wondered/cared about gender ?
Have fun
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]
How does it feel standing in solidarity with your gender in the coporate world? Fucking good I hope, because progressive men, as evidenced here, are no allies with progressive women.[/b]
adam first of all why wade into this thread at all at this point? Did it really need another male voice? Another male voice telling us whose worthy? Telling us to ask ourselves if we know what we are doing. That's a bit paternalistic actually. Ask yourself why you really couldn't just stay out of this one?
Telling me to cherry pick which women are progressive enough for their rights to be equal to mine?
quote:
As a progressive, I do not lend my solidarity and support on the sole basis of one's colour, gender, place of origin, nationality, ethnicity, religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation or any such characteristics.
Then you're not really progressive. I don't get to chose the best of the oppressed and rally behind only them.
And James you and Coyote have been here the same amount of time and I think his gender has come up before in the FF when you have popped in to educate us, it's been 4 years after all. Coyote has always been an ally that's get it. And he gets it without doubting us or trying to rescue us. You have been around long enough to have learned a few things by now. I have no patience for games right now. You know why what you said about BCG was sexist. Why on earth you think telling her you wouldn't sleep with was appropriate is beyond me.
Grab a clue James! You dame well should know better by now and because of all this experience you have.
quote:
If you can't condemn sexism in the executive club, you will be complicit in it everywhere. unionist
This is precisely the point, unionist. The people in question did not condemn sexism in their corporation and to me they became complicit in it.. everywhere.
You cannot be complicit to sexiam when it is targeting others and then wake up when you are stung by it.
To answer your question, in the absence of knowledge whether the person is for social justice, equality etc.. I give the benefit of the doubt. In this case, we know that Bell has inflicted sexism and injustice upon their female employees, we know that these persons never said boo, thus accomplices.
quote:
Originally posted by adam stratton:
[b]This is precisely the point, unionist. The people in question did not condemn sexism in their corporation and to me they became complicit in it.. everywhere.[/b]
Yopu do not know that the women in question did not condemn sexism at BEV. You do not know they were complicit in anything. Therefore your next point is as full of BS as your first one.
quote:
[b]You cannot be complicit to sexiam when it is targeting others and then wake up when you are stung by it.[/b]
Well, you are being complicit to sexism, as well as being sexist, unfortunately, you it seems will never wake up to it, say nothing of never being able to be stung by it.
quote:
[b]To answer your question, in the absence of knowledge whether the person is for social justice, equality etc.. I give the benefit of the doubt. [/b]
You are giving NO benefit of the doubt, you are being just as sexist, as you accuse BEV of being.
quote:
[b] we know that Bell has inflicted sexism and injustice upon their female employees, we know that these persons never said boo, thus accomplices.[/b]
You do not know if they said boo, or not, and you do not know that they were accomplices.
Again it must feel pretty good, eh, to be standing in solidarity with the corporate sexist males at BEV, and every other corp that practises sexism. Does it make you feel powerful?
At this point, I'll go back and read your responses and maybe change my opinion but Tommy P is right on.
Perhaps we need another thread on classism and the left's struggle.
Ugh, ugly thread but I'm with Tommy in the fact that much is being made of this while the "REAL" women in need are being ignored. Think about that.
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]Ugh, ugly thread but I'm with Tommy in the fact that much is being made of this while the "REAL" women in need are being ignored. Think about that.[/b]
How about we not use the term REAL women here, eh. And how about you refrain from telling us, what we should be thinking about here, let alone telling us we women are ignoring women in need.
Guys. Can any of you please recognize that this is a group of men telling women how and when their feminism applies; how and when women's rights apply.
There's likely a clue-stick near the door.
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]How about we not use the term REAL women here, eh. And how about you refrain from telling us, what we should be thinking about here, let alone telling us we women are ignoring women in need.[/b]
I'm sorry Remind and hope you can clarify further. My family is majority women and I have no sympathy for triple figure execs. I know where you're coming from but this really deserves a new thread. I won't get into it here, respectfully.
Sorry to bring a male view, do you only want a single-prism world?
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]Guys. Can any of you please recognize that this is a group of men telling women how and when their feminism applies; how and when women's rights apply.There's likely a clue-stick near the door.[/b]
BS, men don't have minds?
There's likely a joke, there.
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]There's likely a joke, there.[/b]
Can't wait to hear it. [/shrugs shoulders]
I mostly read and try to learn here but this thread is irritating me. More concern for high level execs than the working poor just as the MSM would like it.
Where's the [puke] emoticon.
quote:
Does it make you feel powerful? -Remind
I do feel the power that is available to all. That of being able to keep my narrative free from personal attacks.
But where is there MORE concern? How does discussing one issue in one thread of all the threads on babble, in the one forum dedicated specifically to feminism and women's issues, equate to suddenly babble's feminists have abandoned the poor?
I think I found the effin' joke.
