Riding the waves of Feminism
Fri, 2008-08-29 18:40
#1
Riding the waves of Feminism
Fri, 2008-08-29 18:40
#2
Here is Feminism 101 from Ms. Communicate.
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/now_what.shtml?sh_itm=c34811822fefe4cd0e88043c546b9... the waves of Feminism. [/url]
quote:
I’ve just started learning about feminism and I’m a bit confused when I hear people talking about first wave, second wave, third wave. I’ve tried looking online but it’s very complicated and unreadable. Can you explain the basics to me?
This is a really important question. I think (especially in progressive circles) it's all too common to assume everyone knows the basics of every movement. My suggestions would include checking out Feministing.com or Shamelessmag.com on a daily or even weekly basis.
Right now I'm just starting Jessica Valenti's Full Frontal Feminism. I'm still on the first chapter, so I can't provide much of a review, but it seems like a must read for young women (and men) interested in learning about feminism, without being buried in rhetoric and theory.
Fri, 2008-08-29 19:40
#3
M. Spector
I'm not sure Ms. Communicate has done anything that couldn't have been done by referring the questioner to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism]Wikipedia[/url].
She also undercuts the authority of her answer by saying:
quote:
I also think you’ll find the more feminists you ask about this question the more answers you’ll have.
Is this calculated to leave the questioner any less "confused" and uncertain?
[ 29 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
Fri, 2008-08-29 20:18
#4
Undercutting one's statements' "authority" is kewl, especIally when done consciously... [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2008-08-29 20:20
#5
M. Spector
Some would say it's a stereotypical feminine self-effacement conversational gambit.
I, however, couldn't possibly comment.
Fri, 2008-08-29 20:54
#6
remind
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]I'm not sure Ms. Communicate has done anything that couldn't have been done by referring the questioner to[/b]
Well, I guesss the "asker" did not think of wiki themselves, and why would Ms Communicate, redirect to some other place, when she was asked specifically?! Seems like an unwarranted comment, that undercuts any authority you may have had in determining someone else undercut their authority.
quote:
[b]She also undercuts the authority of her answer by saying: Is this calculated to leave the questioner any less "confused" and uncertain?[/b]
Oh, yes, women should just conform to the patriarchial notion of a "authority", that should not be undercut.
quote:
[b]...Is this calculated to leave the questioner any less "confused" and uncertain?[/b]
No, it is calculated to say that, all feminists have their own [b]equally[/b]authoritative viewpoint, that is as valid as hers.
A multi-dimensional viewpoint gotten, if you will, as opposed to a patriarchial linear one.
[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Fri, 2008-08-29 23:20
#7
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Well, I guesss the "asker" did not think of wiki themselves, and why would Ms Communicate, redirect to some other place, when she was asked specifically?![/b]
Assuming for the moment that Ms. Communicate was really asked this question (who writes those anonymous questions anyway?), why wouldn't she refer the alleged questioner to wikipedia, unless she had a better answer herself (she didn't)?
quote:
[b]Oh, yes, women should just conform to the patriarchial notion of "authority", that should not be undercut.[/b]
Hey, I'm not the one setting myself up as an authority on giving "life advice" to people - Ms. Communicate is. And BTW, [b]you[/b] are the one defending her authority here, not me.
quote:
[b]No, it is calculated to say that, all feminists have their own equally authoritative viewpoint, that is as valid as hers.[/b]
If everyone is an authority, then the whole idea of authority becomes meaningless. Therefore Ms. Communicate should resign, as her function is redundant.
Why should the alleged questioner be satisfied with this answer, given that her alleged question was predicated on an admission that she had "tried looking online," found the subject "very complicated and unreadable," and pronounced herself "confused". Surely what she was allegedly looking for was an authoritative explanation, not just one more opinion among thousands.
Sat, 2008-08-30 02:28
#8
Clearly we need a Mr Communisticate.
Guess who I'm going to nominate.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Sat, 2008-08-30 04:33
#9
Catchfire
Plurality doesn't mean that everyone's opinion is equally valid. As someone who regularly mines the Internet for various disparate sources about anything from climate change to Venezuela to Barack Obama, M. Spector, I'm surprised that you would draw this conclusion. It means that women's and feminist experience is diverse and far-reaching. And to grasp a full picture of what it means to be feminist means interrogating a multiplicity of opinions and backgrounds. This doesn't mean that they are all equal--whatever that means--it means that they will all contribute to our greater understanding about the issue.
I'm not a big fan of the Ann-Landers kind of advice column, but the response here seems appropriately short and basic as a touchstone for larger study. It would be nice if Ms. C gave some suggestions of further reading ([i]Full Frontal Feminism[/i] might be a good suggestion, jrose!) but her response seemed otherwise adequate considering the context.
Authority is social, pragmatic and relative. Like Escalus says in [i]Measure for Measure[/i], 'The Duke is in [i]us[/i]'.
[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]
Sat, 2008-08-30 06:28
#10
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
[b]And to grasp a full picture of what it means to be feminist means interrogating a multiplicity of opinions and backgrounds. This doesn't mean that they are all equal--whatever that means--it means that they will all contribute to our greater understanding about the issue.[/b]
It was remind, not I, who said that "all feminists have their own equally authoritative viewpoint, that is as valid as hers." I agree with you that that is wrong.
What we have here is an alleged questioner who has already done some research on the web and is baffled - so "confused", in fact, that (s)he resorts to writing to an anonymous advice columnist, seeking - [b]not advice or opinion[/b] - but to [b]clarify the facts[/b]. (S)he is not asking for "a full picture of what it means to be feminist."
I would be surprised if that alleged questioner is now satisfied with a clarification of the facts that could have been obtained easily from a number of web sources no more anonymous and [i]at least[/i] as authoritative as Ms. Communicate, once the latter has said "the more feminists you ask about this question the more answers you’ll have." It seems to me that this was likely part of the problem that moved the alleged questioner to write to Ms. Communicate in the first place!
quote:
[b]...touchstone for larger study. It would be nice if Ms. C gave some suggestions of further reading...[/b]
Sorry, the questioner wasn't asking to be sent back to the internet and the library - been there, done that. The question was mainly factual in nature and asked Ms. C. to "explain the basics." It was not a plea for further avenues of research.
Sat, 2008-08-30 07:00
#11
M. Spector, I have a feeling that you are in a minority here with your assumption that less answers is better than more.
But in the name of the more open perspective, we'll accommodate yours too. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Sat, 2008-08-30 07:04
#12
M. Spector
I'm used to being in a minority around here. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Sat, 2008-08-30 07:12
#13
One thing that this thread makes me think of is the work that the gals at the Miss G__ Project are doing to make Women's Studies a part of the Ontario curriculum, so that young women don't need to be asking questions like this. I entered university not knowing the difference between these waves, nor do I think I ever learned them in school, rather just through personal reading and self-education.
I'm not sure if a Women's Studies course is the best choice for the high school curriculum, rather I'd be a huge supporter of a mandatory course that helps students understand the intersections between racism, gender inequality, sexual politics, classism, sexism, etc. etc. etc.
I expect to be sitting on a patio for much of the day, catching up on some reading, so I'll fill you all in about Valenti's Full Frontal Feminism shortly.
Sun, 2008-08-31 09:49
#14
Timebandit
quote:
I would be surprised if that alleged questioner is now satisfied with a clarification of the facts that could have been obtained easily from a number of web sources no more anonymous and at least as authoritative as Ms. Communicate, once the latter has said "the more feminists you ask about this question the more answers you’ll have." It seems to me that this was likely part of the problem that moved the alleged questioner to write to Ms. Communicate in the first place!
I expect it is the part of the problem that prompted the letter. It's one of the difficulties, even flaws, of the feminist movement. The central organizing principle, equality of the sexes, becomes so muddied with the multitude of takes on just what that means that there is no answer anymore.
It's not surprising that a lot of young women, rather than trying to ravel out the tangles we feminists have created, say "I'm not a feminist, but..."
Sun, 2008-08-31 11:03
#15
I think Miss communicate gave a decent Answer,
given the space restrictions she had.
[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Mon, 2008-09-01 04:20
#16
I also thought it was pretty good, considering that the question wasn't exactly concerning "life advice". The question sounded more like, "I have a paper due next week and I need someone to give me the Coles Notes version" request for advice. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Mon, 2008-09-01 07:16
#17
The questioner needs to be prepared to spend years reading, thinking, listening, and debating - and changing her mind - before she begins to get things sorted out. And then she needs to spend the rest of her life doing the same. I get the feeling she's maybe not aware of that. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-09-03 10:25
#18
[url=http://coletteloc.com/]Here[/url] is a great write-up of a film (Iron-Jawed Angels, HBO, 2004) describing part of what is now called the "first wave" feminism, that invalidates the 'conservative' label often affixed to it.
quote:
WHY WOMEN SHOULD VOTEThis is the story of our Grandmothers and Great-grandmothers; they lived only 90 years ago.
Remember, it was not until 1920 that women were granted the right to go to the polls and vote.
The women were innocent and defenseless, but they were jailed nonetheless for picketing the White House, carrying signs asking for the vote.
(Photo of Lucy Burns)
And by the end of the night, they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their warden's blessing went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly convicted of 'obstructing sidewalk traffic.'
They beat Lucy Burns, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head and left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping for air.(Dora Lewis)
They hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her head against an iron bed and knocked her out cold. Her cell mate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe the guards grabbing, dragging, beating, choking, slamming, pinching, twisting and kicking the women.Thus unfolded the 'Night of Terror' on Nov. 15, 1917, when the warden at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his guards to teach a lesson to the suffragists imprisoned there because they dared to picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right to vote.
For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. (...)
[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Wed, 2008-09-03 11:25
#19
Digiteyes
History is not so far away.
[url=http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/compilations/ProvinceTerritory/Provincia... inceTerritory/ProvincialWomenRightToVote.aspx?Menu=ElectionsRidings-Election[/url]
For provincial elections, women in Quebec got the vote in 1940. I remember that my mother did not have the vote in municipal elections in the early '60's (the vote only went to the 'head of the household') and that, when my father went on business trips, she had to have a notarized letter so she could take her kids to the hospital should something horrible befall us. Legislation for job equity did not include [url=http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/en/timePortals/milestones/93mile.asp]sex discrimination[/url].
[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: Digiteyes ]
Thu, 2008-09-04 06:09
#20
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]Right now I'm just starting Jessica Valenti's Full Frontal Feminism. [/b]
Hah! I had a cab driver this morning tell me I shouldn’t keep a book like this on my desk at work if I want to keep my job. Umm … Excuse me?
Thu, 2008-09-04 06:38
#21
Catchfire
I wonder if it was the 'Full Frontal' he objected to or the 'feminism'? Sad thing is, he might have a point...
Thu, 2008-09-04 07:32
#22
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
[b]I wonder if it was the 'Full Frontal' he objected to or the 'feminism'? Sad thing is, he might have a point...[/b]
Meh, I'm keeping it proudly on my desk. I'd love to see management say a darn thing about it.
Thu, 2008-09-04 08:26
#23
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]Meh, I'm keeping it proudly on my desk. I'd love to see management say a darn thing about it.[/b]
Heck, I keep Hairy Pothead in plain view at work. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]