Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia, Part 12

[url=http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080813/116006455.html]Here's an historical timeline - January 1991 to August 8, when the attack began - from Novosti[/url]

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What follows are some remarks about the timeline that Fidel posted from GlobalResearch.ca .

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August 11 09:30 -- Saakashvili signs ceasefire agreement prepared by France and Finland.

August 12 21:11 -- Saakashvili accepts the ceasefire terms signed in Moscow.

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What ceasefire terms? I thought it was claimed that an agreement was prepared by France and Finland which Saakashvili signed on the 11th?

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August 16 10:57 -- Medvedev officially signs the French-brokered peace plan.

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Oh, I see. There never was an arrangement in Moscow. Somebody just made that up, right?

WRONG! Sarcozy was in Moscow on the 12th. It's there that the 6 point plan was developed, in consultations between the French President and Russian President Medvedev. Something was signed. And the French President did a little back-and-forth, at the end of which the very same plan was agreed to by both sides.

Thing is, Russia had already rejected the draft ceasefire plan proposed by France and signed on Monday the 11th by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

If this timeline can be so muddled up on something as simple as this PART of the sequence of events, then I've not got a lot of confidence in the rest of it.

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

1. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Ks6hu6ggE]Actual footage of Georgian bombardment of civilians in Tshkinvali. [/url] The report also identifies fraudulent western media reports in which footage of Tshkinvali is misrepresented as Gori in Georgia, etc.

You seem to know the model numbers better than the announcers. Maybe leave a note on YouTube?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]

Thing is, Russia had already rejected the draft ceasefire plan proposed by France and signed on Monday the 11th by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

If this timeline can be so muddled up on something as simple as this PART of the sequence of events, then I've not got a lot of confidence in the rest of it.

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ][/b]

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According to Nicolai Petro, both sides agreed on basic cease fire [i]terms[/i] on the [b]10th[/b], before the arrival of foreign intermediaries. French and Finnish Foreign Ministers arrive in Tbilisi to mediate peace deal. They were merely terms of a cease fire agreed upon by both the Russians and Georgians as far as I can tell - nothing about actually signing "Sarkozy's six point back-n-forth" I don't the Russians trust Sarkozy all that much, but probably more than Saakashvili or his NATO handlers.

August 12th, Petro says Saakashvili merely "accepts the cease fire terms" signed in Moscow. Nothing about signing any binding agreements. Am I reading it wrong there? Nicolai Petro doesn't seem to be very clear either

The Russians weren't about to sign any deal until the leaders of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia agreed to terms and signed the mediated and agreed upon by all sides peace deal, which they did on the 14th. Medvedev signs on the 16th.

Some things are shrouded in secrecy, aye. I would think that likely as well.

The OSCE observers have already identified Georgia's monstrous role in South Ossetia. Right wing American observers like Pat Buchanan, liberals like Gwen Dyer, and many others have come to similar conclusions. And historian Stephen Cohen has been writing about the pathological Russophobia [and what he called an anti-Russian fatwa among the neocons] in the US and its consequences for some time now. But there's still lots of howling among the dogs that love war and death.

The American Gambit in the Caucuses has completely failed. With that failure, the unipolar [i]Pax Americana[/i] has taken a huge hit. However, given the demonstrated inability to learn from the bird-brained neocons, another humiliation may be necessary in order for the understanding that things have changed to sink in to their microcephalic heads. I predict [b]another beating for an American-backed bully[/b] in the next 2-3 years. Sit back and enjoy.

On the contrary. The demonstrated failure of the neocons and their ideology is the grand thing.

Georgia has already discovered that jabbing a big bear with a pointed stick will get your arms ripped off. I'm just saying the neocons won't be able to resist trying the same stupidity again, with some new client militarist regime.

As Pat Buchanan - that left winger - put it, "those who start wars don't get to say how they will end."

your fixation on the enemy of my enemy is the same brutal logic that embroiled us in the cold war.

Grow up.

Russia and Putin are no friends of freedom, justice or liberty. If you have to use Pat Buchanan as a reference you know you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Also get your facts right the OSCE has NOT come out and stated that Georgia was responsible. Russian media is speculating on a story that Spiegel magazine may run.

[url=http://www.kp.ru/daily/24155/370805/]KP[/url]

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Russia and Putin are no friends of freedom, justice or liberty.

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Freedom, justice, and liberty (perhaps you mean equality?) have no friends at all outside of flowery speeches and well meaning but marginalized individuals.

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Peter Lavalle: Lewis Carroll wrote: [b]"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes--and ships--and sealing wax - of cabbages--and kings--And why the sea is boiling hot--And whether pigs have wings."[/b] Carroll was a brilliant writer and philosopher. He asked us to think differently as he put the world on its head. Russia is doing the same. The Ossetian War was Russia’s opening to free itself of hypocritical constraints. The West will not be its moral guide. And the West won’t be Russia’s partner if the rules are made by one party and forced upon the other(s).

[b]Buckle up and try to enjoy the ride.[/b] Russia has decided its course and will not back down – it will not retreat one centimeter. The post-Cold War order is now in the past. Pigs don’t have wings. This is why we all must consider a new world order that rejects those who tell us that pig can really fly. It’s about time.

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[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/employee/27]Do pigs have wings?[/url]

[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by contrarianna:
[b]Spiegel: OSCE observers fault Georgians in conflict[/b]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]The OSCE observers have already identified Georgia's monstrous role in South Ossetia.[/b]

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I thought we weren't allowed to accept the OSCE's word?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]Those OSCE motherf***ers are the same people that slipped away, quietly, just before Georgia incinerated Tskhinvali.[/b]

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I'm taking your advice and assuming that the OSCE's evidence of "Georgia's monstrous role in South Ossetia" is nothing but vicious lies [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Or is this a case of "we have always trusted Eurasia the OSCE!"? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: A_J ]

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The West will not be its moral guide. And the West won’t be Russia’s partner if the rules are made by one party and forced upon the other(s).

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Oh hell, I'm confused. I read a news item a few days ago that said the outcome of this conflict means that unilaterism is dead. I think that is wishful thinking.
It seems as if we are getting different messages from all the parties(EU,NATO,Russia,US)depending upon their point of view or what they wish the world to be.
The EU says that Russia should have used multilaterism(countries working in concert) to resolve its conflict with Georgia. This seems to be saying that they believe in a properly functioning UN with all countries as partners.
Russia acts as if it's a multipolar world(a distribution of power in which more than two nation-states have nearly equal amounts of military, cultural, and economic influence)and so why should they consult with nations under domination of their rival power or the UN.
Georgia, Poland, and the USA act as if it's a unipolar world(a distribution of power in which there is one state with most of the cultural, economic, and military influence)so why should they consult with anyone but themselves especially a "useless" body like the UN.
For myself, I think its been a bipolar world lately(no offense).
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I belive that's the fibberpolar theory.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]

Shamil Basayev and Al Khattab were trained and indoctrinated in CIA sponsored camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan during the 1980's and 90's. The former Islamic Gladios and Osama bin Laden were CIA-SAS-ISI proxies in the war to rid Central Asia of secular socialist thought, but they were mainly drug-dealing terrorists all for themselves soldiers of fortune. Islamic Gladios were also used to destabilize the Balkans in the 1990's. Putin held a press conference at start of the decade and accused Crazy George and British jackals of aiding and abetting terrorism in the former Soviet satellite states, including Chechnya and Dagestan. Basayev was a ruthless mofo who tried exporting the terror war to Dagestan. [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3198]Who is Osama bin Laden[/url] by Michel Chossudovsky, Ottawa[/b]

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And what about Russian assassinated Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev who, ironically, claimed to be Ossetian in order to advance in the Soviet Air Force. Or do you think he was a deep cover CIA agent as well?

Dzhokhar is considered a hero in the Baltic states as he refused orders from Moscow to crush their independence movement. Whereas the Baltic states were able to free themselves from Russian occupation unfortunately for Dzhokhar being Muslim meant that Russia could bomb your cities and kill your people with impunity from Western intervention or interest.

It seems to me that on this board that if you are Muslim and are attacking Israel you're a freedom fighter but if you're fighting the Russians you must be a CIA stooge. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

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Originally posted by cornerstone:
[b]
It seems to me that on this board that if you are Muslim and are attacking Israel you're a freedom fighter but if you're fighting the Russians you must be a CIA stooge. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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Well if you can believe the [url=http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/iran.htm]U.S. Senate Republican Policy Committee[/url], Clinton's "lefty" Liberal Democrats were aiding and abetting al Qa'eda, drug-dealing KLA terrorists, and even the Iranian Revolutionary Guard in turning Bosnia and Balkans inside-out right up to NATO bombing in 1999 and election in 2000, the same election that Crazy Jorge de la Yayo lost the popular vote count to Al Gore(of "Blood and Gore" hedge fund notoriety today), two more ruthless motherfuckers with an inside line to the Russian mafia, and "Prince Phil of Greece", another man of leisure who hasn't worked a day in his life, and whose family are the biggest welfare bums on earth)

And then U.S. Democrats and Putin both went so far as to accuse Crazy George II's regime of aiding al Qa'eda, Turkish, Afghan, Uzbek and other mujahideen, and drug-dealing terrorists in Albania, Chechnya, Dagestan etc to at least 9/11/01. The Chechen mafia are ruthless mofos, cornerstone. They have nothing in common with ordinary Chechens, who as of the end of Putin's presidency are content with the bustling economy and rebuilding of infrastructure in Grozny and surrounding areas.

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=599]US Hidden Agenda: The Politics of Terrorism in North Ossetia[/url] James Petras (from 2004)

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In response to the Chechen terrorist assaults, all the Western mass media continued to refer to them as “nationalists”, “militants”, “rebels” and as legitimate representatives of the Chechen people, even after they had massacred the school children. In the immediate aftermath, all the print and electronic media, from the BBC to the Guardian, to Le Monde, New York Times etc. criticized the Russians for failing to negotiate with the terrorists ­ even as the terrorists were murdering children and even after they had set off explosives maiming innocent kids. Nothing captures the profound media commitment to empire and backing for the dismemberment of Russia than its support of the terrorists in the midst of mass murder. The most primitive and craven support for terrorist demands in the midst of national grief and international outrage finally provoked the Russian state to react with indignation ­ and for some of the media to temporarily downplay its support of the terrorists and the breakup of Russia.

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Anyway, I'm sure it's one long running foulup between U.S. cosmetic govs and embedded shadow guvmint lackies down thataway. The thing Canadians should be concerned about during this colder war, is that our Liberative/Conservabral stooges in Ottawa will fall right in-line "aye-aye on the double", whether it's recognizing Kosovo as a new state led by a drug-dealing criminal stooge of the west, or in NOT recognizing the autonomous regions of South Ossetia or Abkhazia, whatever Uncle Sam instructs the stooges in our two old line parties this month or the next, and whether it's Stephane Harper or Stephen Dion awaiting orders from Warshington with baited breath and on bended knee.

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

This was on the BBC website this morning. It's the five principles that Russia will abide by in its foreign policy. It was made as a public warning/promise to the Russian people and the world. I doubt that 4/5 of these concide with NATO's new reason for existence. A large storm front is gathering. [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]

"New Russian world order: the five principles
Here are the principles, in the words which President Medvedev used in an interview with the three main Russian TV channels (translated by the BBC Monitoring Service).

1. International law

"Russia recognises the primacy of the basic principles of international law, which define relations between civilised nations. It is in the framework of these principles, of this concept of international law, that we will develop our relations with other states."

2. Multi-polar world

"The world should be multi-polar. Unipolarity is unacceptable, domination is impermissible. We cannot accept a world order in which all decisions are taken by one country, even such a serious and authoritative country as the United States of America. This kind of world is unstable and fraught with conflict."

3. No isolation

"Russia does not want confrontation with any country; Russia has no intention of isolating itself. We will develop, as far as possible, friendly relations both with Europe and with the United State of America, as well as with other countries of the world."

4. Protect citizens

"Our unquestionable priority is to protect the life and dignity of our citizens, wherever they are. We will also proceed from this in pursuing our foreign policy. We will also protect the interest of our business community abroad. And it should be clear to everyone that if someone makes aggressive forays, he will get a response."

5. Spheres of influence

"Russia, just like other countries in the world, has regions where it has its privileged interests. In these regions, there are countries with which we have traditionally had friendly cordial relations, historically special relations. We will work very attentively in these regions and develop these friendly relations with these states, with our close neighbours."

Asked if these "priority regions" were those that bordered on Russia he replied: "Certainly the regions bordering [on Russia], but not only them."

And he stated: "As regards the future, it depends not just on us. It also depends on our friends, our partners in the international community. They have a choice."

Funny that he used the phrase "...should be multi-polar..." Russia has the EU over a barrel regarding energy so perhaps they think Europe may become part of their sphere of influence- "..., but not only them....They have a choice."

This Georgia incident is becoming very important.

It will be instructive to read and evaluate the spin on these 5 principles by western media and political leaders. The big change, of course, is the assertion that a multi-polar world is a better world, a safer world, and so on. Neocon heads WILL explode when reading this.

I would expect then, that a multi-polar world is the part of these principles that will have the least attention paid to them. Haughty disdain for others, and the utter rejection of the very idea that other countries have legitimate interests of their own is where the Russophobes and their neocon friends/allies begin from.

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This Georgia incident is becoming very important.

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Absolutely. However, I still expect the Americans to be slow learners, and to jab another stick at the bear, because they cannot resist the mischief and because they refuse to believe that things could change. As it is with all empires.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]

[b]I call Godwin.[/b] All-e-all-e-in-free!

P.S. Nice Monty Python spelling.

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ][/b]

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Oh wow a typo. If that's all you got good on you.

The annexation of the Sudetenland and the Munich accord were directly linked to Germany's assertion that the German minority in Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia were being oppressed by their Czech overlords.

Namely that Czech instituted land reforms were hurting the predominantly German land owners.

Fast forward to today's Georgia and not much has changed. Russia has invaded Georgia to ostensibly protect the Russian minority from the big bad Georgians.

History is history. Hitler was not the first to use the excuse of protecting a minority to instigate a war nor will he be the last. He is merely the best known.

Why would Hitler bomb his own people???? Wrong again NB.

Well seeing that Lord Runciman reported the following during the Sudeten crisis

"Czech officials and Czech police, speaking little or no German, were appointed in large numbers to purely German districts; Czech agricultural colonists were encouraged to settle on land confiscated under the Land Reform in the middle of German populations; for the children of these Czech invaders Czech schools were built on a large scale; there is a very general belief that Czech firms were favoured as against German firms in the allocation of State contracts and that the State provided work and relief for Czechs more readily than for Germans. I believe these complaints to be in the main justified. Even as late as the time of my Mission, I could find no readiness on the part of the Czechoslovak Government to remedy them on anything like an adequate scale ... the feeling among the Sudeten Germans until about three or four years ago was one of hopelessness. But the rise of Nazi Germany gave them new hope. I regard their turning for help towards their kinsmen and their eventual desire to join the Reich as a natural development in the circumstances."

Good lord Beltov perhaps Hitler was misunderstood and he was merely protecting those good people just like Putin is protecting the Osetian's today. Naaaaaa you and Lord Runciman have more in common than you think.

You both take sides and refuse to accept that more than one party can be at fault.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]Calling Godwin's Law means that you have already lost the argument. You just don't know it. The typo was just good for a laugh as it reminded me of the deliberate typo in an episode of MPFC.

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I don't recall that Hitler bombed the Germans in those areas. But this is precisely what the Saakashvili militarist regime in Tbilisi did; [b]they bombed people in territory that they claimed was their own country.[/b] It was ethnic cleansing, pure and simple. [b]And, as a result, Georgia has forever lost any moral right to to talk about "territorial integrity" in these areas[/b] when what it means for the butcher of Tbilisi is the killing of their own.

The clock is ticking on Saakashvili. Even the independent Georgian church in Russia is criticizing him. No wonder he is reduced to chewing on his tie .. he's afraid that Georgians will, on their own, string him up by it and remind everyone what Italians did to Mussolini.

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ][/b]

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Yeah your so right because nothing happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945 [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Perhaps I should have used a more arcane reference to the Peloponnesian War and how the Athenian's used the Helots against the Lacedaemonians.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]Do you deny that the thuggish Saaskashvili regime bombed South Ossetia? Yes or No? It's pointless to discuss the events when you deny even basic facts like that.

Why not start a thread where you can spew forth on how much you like the Third Reich? I'm sure you could get some interesting discussion with the moderators. Ha ha. Right before they open a can of whup ass on you. Hardy har har.[/b]

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Where did I say I liked the Third Reich??? Quote me or apologise this instant or you are the one who should have a can of whup ass opened on you.

Making an apt historical comparison is completely acceptable. The pretext for both events is similar in that both Germany and Russia claimed to be defending the interests of an oppressed minority.

Morality has nothing to do with international law. Internal matters are internal matters. It's is tragic, it is appalling but it is perfectly legally acceptable to massacre your own people within your own borders.

From Pol Pot to Mugabe as long as you keep it in country happy killing fields. So the fact that Saaskashvili bombed the crap out of South Ossetia is irrelevant. Unless, of course, you don't believe in international law.

I think the mods should have a look at someone who argues that it is perfectly acceptable to massacre people. Someone like that doesn't belong on babble.

Send him back to hell. You got my vote.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[b]I think the mods should have a look at someone who argues that it is perfectly acceptable to massacre people. Someone like that doesn't belong on babble.

Send him back to hell. You got my vote.[/b]

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Again no apology for the previous slander and now a new one to go on top of the previous.

Nowhere did I say that I think it is acceptable to murder ones own people but I did say that under international law there is really nothing that forbids it and there is definitely no provision that allows for a third party to declare an interest and become a belligerent.

Like Turkey's invasion of Cyprus was illegal so is Russia's invasion of Georgia. Last time I checked the law and justice had nothing to do with each other.

You can not selectively apply the law when it pleases you. The law is the law period. It sucks, it's unfair and it's all we have.

NB nice to see that when you start to lose an argument your resort to name calling and hair puling. Most mature.

Fidel, James Petras is hardly a reliable source. This is a man who publicly declares that Jews, who are less than 2% of the US population, control over 25% of the US's wealth and that Israel was involved in the attacks of 9/11. His assertions are two shades above the protocols of Zion.

Also painting Putin as some sort of saviour is a bit much. The man is worth billions and has his fingers in every dirty little pie in Russia. As for Russia being an innocent victim in all of this. Give me a break.

[url=http://www.theotherrussia.org/2007/07/06/inside-the-putin-youth-cult/]Putin's youth cult the Nashi[/url]

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/world/europe/08moscow.html]New York Times[/url]

Russia under Putin has become an aggressive and belligerent nation just as much as the US. From orchestrating cyber attacks against Estonia to engaging in the largest military build up in recent history.

[url=http://www.urlfan.com/site/theotherrussia_org/1633437.html]"TheOtherRussia.org" ranks [b]51282 out 1,515,000 sites[/b][/url] (Mentioned in 21 feeds)

Rabble.ca is several times more popular a news source. No wonder cornerman frequents rabble/babble