The "once more with feeling" link of writers is an excellent article and the responses too are good reading, even posts 11 and 13 from men which try to mitigate it that it is a crime against women. They indicate what lengths both women and men will go to in order to try and deny the most serious nature of this.
Misogynists on rampage
Thu, 2009-08-06 12:54
#52
remind
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:11
#53
writer
martin, thank you. And Maysie, Snert, ElizaQ, remind, Stargazer, Michelle, Tommy, Ghislaine, bagkitty, RevolutionPlease. This is a precious thread.
Digging deeper, what I find is a deep contradiction in two misogynist philosophies that Sodini embraced. The religious - one woman/possession/object meant for one man, with pre-marital sex erasing the posibility of finding your soulmate. The social/sexual - dress well, swagger, play the prick and the young ladies/objects will fall prey to their primitive desires and you'll get all the sex you can handle, possessing them at will.
He doubly failed by these standards. And nobody would tell him why. The One was not delivered by God. 30-million rejected his tidy, clean, nice-smelling normalcy. In his journals, he mentions trying different things over the decades, and over those decades remaining profoundly alone.
He is a man who embraced his gender's hetero-sexist male dominating rules with a particular passion, because playing them out was all he had. Because inside there was a vacuum. And those rules let him down. Rather than looking to the rules and their source as the failure, the things to reject, he turned to the ones they were created to contain. The ones who didn't pop into the box like they were supposed to.
After he beat Karla Homolka to a bruised pulp, Paul Bernardo was beside himself with grief for losing her. He made maudlin, drunken tapes in a pathetic and non-sensical effort to win her back. On one of them, he says he took the flashlight he had used on her and beat himself with it. He seems surprised that it hurt. He tells his wife that she should have told him.
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:19
#54
Snert
My point is that Sodini's and Lépine's worldview is common to a lot of men.
Agreed. Which is what makes Michelle's question ("I'm curious about WHY certain men become murderous misogynists and others don't.") so compelling. The worldview alone is not sufficient for creating mass murderers, so... what else?
If we persist in seeing him or other killers like him as "isolated" - with the suggestion that he and men like him are to be pitied or helped even more
I'm certainly not campaigning for any pity for him, nor would I know how anyone could really have helped him. But I agree with Tommy; when you have nobody sane in your life to temper your thoughts and beliefs, they can become delusional and dangerous very quickly.
I'm also not suggesting it's our duty to seek out and befriend all the loners and misfits, but who or what did this guy have in his life to counter the nonsense of his favourite author and his beliefs that his family, his coworkers, and all women everywhere had done him wrong? If the answer is "well, nothing" then it becomes a little less surprising that something like this would happen, no?
That doesn't leave him and his own free will blameless, of course, but to be honest, I wouldn't know what to tell a guy like Sodoni.
Open question to all: what would you have told George Sodoni if you could have? Assuming that someone near him sensed a problem, is there anything that you think they could have said to him to steer him away from his fantasies and toward something productive?
And regarding help, I don't believe it's our duty or responsibility to "fix" someone like Sodoni, but at the same time, when has it ever been successful to tell someone with huge emotional problems "just go figure it out for God's sake... everyone else seems to be able to!". How does a guy like Sodoni bootstrap his way to a healthy worldview?
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:23
#55
writer
Snert, this is the best I have to offer: Facebook Update Status | December 6, 2008 (does not go to Facebook)
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:23
#56
I appreciate Martine, your insistence on analyzing Sodini's behavior in the larger context of women's oppression. As with Lepine, the media and soon after the public debate was focused on the killers' psychology. But if you agree that both mens' motivation was misogyny then there is little need to examine Sodini's actions further. There is however a great need to defend and stand up for women's use of public space. Women who are watching and certainly the women who were at the gym, hear the message loud and clear...stay home, hide, retreat etc. Women are being led to believe that being in large groups together makes us more vulnerable to targeted violence. In fact the grouping of women together has made us stronger and braver, in particular in using and claiming public space. There is a great danger of reinforcing his regressive message and the opposite is needed. Women need to be encouraged to take up more space, to make more demands and to continue to strive for more power, freedom and autonomy.
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:28
#57
writer
Tamar! You are such an important part of this exchange.
To reinforce your point - anyone looking at the statistics knows that WOMEN ARE IN GREATER DANGER in private space. We are more likely to be attacked at home. By those we know best.
The goal is to create a society where we are free. Wherever.
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:39
#58
As with many discussions maybe it comes down to how one personally defines a word. I think those who are dissmissive of "isolation" are maybe defining it more litterally, while those, myself included, who point to this are using it more broadly.
Because I think we are all pointing to the same factors, in the end.
Cripes, I am having a kind of Derrida moment, where I wonder if we can communicate about this at all.
Trouble is, it's difficult-- even insulting to try-- to bring it all together within a few paragraphs. So, we'll pick this aspect and that aspect, be susinct, and then upset someone because this was not mentioned, or that wasn't articulated just the right way.
But it's what we do.
Yesterday afternoon I was getting ready for work, trying to catch the latest weather, surfing around, and settled for a moment on "Telia Tequila." I can only stomach this for a minute or two at a time, but somehow, as stupid as it is, I think it's important.
Somebody is watching this shit. Learning.
And you're warned about "mature content", when in fact there's nothing whatsoever "mature" about the show. And, it's a competition to earn Tilla's "Love".
That's what the good folks on T.V. are teaching kids about Love. And Maturity.
Okay, so I'm a kook. A nut, to be so concerned about something as mindless as this show. Or Lady Gaga videos, et al.
But it strikes me that the stuff I grew up on was dismissed as being wrong. Hemmingway too macho, for example. The old media, the old literature, surely, and I agree, wasn't exaclty women friendly.
But, look what's replaced it. Then look what's happening over the course of that replacement.
I'm not pointing to literature or pop culture as the cause of increasing violence against women. But, I think it symbolizes what's going on at a deeper level.
I recall, in no detail, about a murder case back-- I think-- in the 1920's where a young man or two young men used their upbringing, their trauma or what have you to justify the murder of someone else. Notable, because it was the first time such a deffence was used.
It seems to have opened up the floodgates in respect to avoiding what some call personal responsibility.
Which, again, is only part of the picture.
So, we eschew personal repsponsibility, while at the same time emphasizing "self esteem" to the point that little johnny is so gosh darn special, he can do no wrong.
In a world where empiricism is anitquated, in a world where anything can be true, according to yourself.
Combine that with MTV's deffinition of "Love" and "Maturity", and, well.
Be prepared for many of these discussions in the years to come.
Thu, 2009-08-06 13:59
#59
Snert
Snert, this is the best I have to offer
Perhaps it could have been enough. A woman I know has talked at length with me about being scapegoated by her family, made "different" from other kids, ostracized and rejected, and it's affected her, but she believes real tragedy to have been averted by those few people, acquaintances or not even, who made a place for her and accepted her.
But for the most part (I'll exclude you but include me) I think that when it comes to loners, we're very interested in them when they do something tragic, but otherwise, not so much. I wonder how many hits Sodoni's blog got after his killings, and how that compared to before. Did anyone really care what was going on in George Sodoni's head before he started shooting? Evidently he even wrote it down for us!
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:00
#60
writer
I find it interesting that you pick out two females in entertainment as reflective of the problem.
I always find it interesting when folks write as though violence against women is a new trend. It isn't. And we've actually moved forward, considering that Margaret Mitchell was laughed at in the House of Commons when she spoke of domestic violence.
The case you are likely thinking of is Leopold and Loeb. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/Accountoftrial...
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:03
#61
writer
"To the moon, Alice!" Ha ha, the funny man on TV wants to punch his wife in the face!
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:10
#62
I find it interesting that you pick out two females in entertainment as reflective of the problem.
Because, as far as those two women's entertainment persona's go, they are about as female as Al Jolsen was black.
They are charactectures. Drawn by men.
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:14
#63
ElizaQ
Tommy-Paine you're post made me think of this kid I used to baby-sit when I was a teen. It's so much more then that but not that I think back it kinda of encapsulates so much of your post. Think middle class, kid being put in classes before school even starts to be able to get ahead and the use of the word 'no' absolutely forbidden. That rule was one of the main ones on the list that the babysitter got. Well when Mom left that kid was an absolute shit and he knew I couldn't say 'No'. It was ridiculous. One of things I was supposed to do one day was facilitate (yes that was the word) a drawing session. No big deal I thought. So the kid starts drawing and I start too and he shows me a picture. Well he put breasts and a vagina on the stick figures and thought it was a riot and started giggle and saying the words over and over. Well at least he was using the right words I thought but I decided that drawing time was over because honestly he was creeping me out. I've worked with kids a lot so I'm not adverse to talking about things like that in and honest manner. I just couldn't put my figure on what was different about this particular kid. Then the kid starts saying 'well you know you have breasts' and I kid you not glommed his hand down hard on one of mine and wiggled his fingers, with a giggle, "See?" Well guess what, I sure as hell used the word 'no' as I grabbed his hand and pulled it away. His reaction "You're not supposed to say no, I'm going to tell." And he tried again and again thinking it was hilarious and even made a grab at my crotch. "You're going to get in trouble. Nayah Nyah." Then not only did I say no, I marched him off to his room and made him stay there after telling him how totally inappropriate that behavior was.
I'm really not sure why I went back to babysit for them again but I did. Young and dumb and without the capcity to figure out what was going on. Well I did get a polite and condencending talking to about the fact that I did say 'no' the last time. When I tried to explain why and what happen I was told that 'no' and sticking him in his room wasn't the right way but that I should have just explained it and that he was only exploring his boundries or some sort of crap like that. Boundries my ass.
They moved away soon after that.
Oh and this kid was only four years old. I wonder what he ended up being like.
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:19
#64
writer
Snert, I am hugely influenced by Alice Miller, who makes a compelling argument for supporting children's reality and making a transformative difference in their lives.
I've wondered the same about Sodini's website. It was under his name. He worked in IT. Did no one read this?
As to "us" not reading it. Just did a Google search - women gun sex lonely. 1,740,000 hits. Where to begin?
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:21
#65
I wonder what he ended up being like.
A CEO.
Thu, 2009-08-06 14:46
#66
I was wondering how a guy like that could go without being married for so long. I've worked in IT, but not for as long as Sodini did. And one of the first things that becomes apparent to the person trying to establish themselves as an IT worker is the long hours one tends to have to put in without overtime pay or recognition early on to become both competent and noticed. Some work places are very good with telling people to take personal time out and mental health breaks and such. But overall I think most IT jobs are demanding to the point of being high tech sweat shops. I'm thinking it's possible Sodini was so dedicated to getting a leg up in IT that he forgot to live and made too little time for himself to develop as a person. And perhaps Sodini suffered from some sort of obsessive mental disorder of some sort. I think in a lot of ways, IT workers, and really any profession nowadays, can suffer a form of sensory deprivation at times. But especially IT workers who deal mainly with things and not people to a larger extent. I think it's possible Sodini slowly digitized himself not only professionally but on a personal level. It's an analogue world and always will be. Strange man and a sad ending.
Thu, 2009-08-06 15:13
#67
Lest we forget them with all this attention on poor George: Elizabeth Gannon, 49, Heidi Overmier, 46, and Jody Billingsley, 37.
Thu, 2009-08-06 18:01
#68
remind
Thank you for those names martin.
And he didn't kill the "young hotties" either.
Fri, 2009-08-07 13:48
#69
A bit more about this:
Media analysis has so far ignored or glossed over Sodini's religious affiliations but the shooter's Internet diary suggest his last readings were the Bible and a book by a Texas evangelist, R.B. Thieme, Jr. who has written that husbands own their wives, as literal property and promoted an odd teaching that for each man on Earth there exists only one correct "right woman" in all creation....In his final weblog entry on August 3rd, 2009, written before carrying out the LA Fitness Center slaughter, Sodini wrote, "I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them." The Integrity of God was a privately published book by R.B. Thieme, Jr. and the apparent reference suggests that while George Sodini was estranged from the Tetelestai Church he was still under the influence of Thieme's writing, which may have exacerbated Sodini's social maladjustment and inability to meet women because of an extreme, idealistic doctrine Thieme espoused known as "right man/right woman."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/shooter-read-sexist-chris_b_252702.html
It may have? You think?
Fri, 2009-08-07 14:09
#70
"inability to meet women"??? Have you read his diary? He recounts two recent interactions with women and seems to have simply preferred his closed Google-laced world and racist "hoez"/"hotties" fantasies to actual human interactions with equals.
Can we stop pitying this complacent assassin as if he was somehow the aggrieved party, when his victims's lives and families don't deserve even a footnote in the media coverage?!
Fri, 2009-08-07 15:06
#71
remind
No shit martin, and this ignoring the victim's is just as bad as blamming the victims, for violence against them by men, which Carlton University is busy doing.
Carleton Students Association says it is shocked that the university has tried to shift the blame for the attack on the victim."It saddens me to see our institution view the serious and disturbing issue of sexual assault in such a dismissive manner," said Erik Halliwell, president of the Carleton University Students Association.
"It is ludicrous to suggest that this assault was in any way caused by the actions of the victim herself, the institution has a responsibility to ensure that Carleton students have a safe environment in which to learn and work."
"I find it absolutely embarrassing and deplorable to see the University continue to blame the victim and reinforce the outdated and harmful stereotype that sexual assault is the fault of the woman," said Kimalee Phillip, President of the Graduate Students' Association.
She added, "The University should consider what kind of message it is sending to students. Their response discourages women who have been assaulted from reporting the crime to campus officials or the police if they believe that they will be blamed for the incident."
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/08/07/10390786.html
This type of shit allows misogyny to continue.
Fri, 2009-08-07 15:53
#72
"inability to meet women"??? Have you read his diary? He recounts two recent interactions with women and seems to have simply preferred his closed Google-laced world and racist "hoez"/"hotties" fantasies to actual human interactions with equals.
Can we stop pitying this complacent assassin as if he was somehow the aggrieved party, when his victims's lives and families don't deserve even a footnote in the media coverage?!
From post#1: Can we discuss this and explore prevention/defusing strategies, instead of the usual baiting, please?
Okay, I admit I've been expressing far too much sympathy for Sodini, a triple murderer and abominable product of society in the US. So what would you say to the victims' families to console them, martin? Could you assure them that this kind of thing will never happen again?
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:00
#73
No, I don't see anything that could have been said to the murderer or that could be said today to the families of Elizabeth Gannon, Heidi Overmier, and Jody Billingsley. Talk is not enough. Sodini was not only a product but an agent of this sexist society, and the privilege he felt entitled to remains central to it. It will go on happening: murders of unruly women are a daily occurence in North America, and feelings of male entitlement and misogyny go on being propagated exponentially by the culture. All I can think of saying, and it is woefully inadequate, is "This is horrible. I am ashamed and angry at a world where Sodini fit in so well. Some people are fighting this. We hope to turn the tide." Some days, I even believe it.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:10
#74
writer
Word.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:19
#75
And I think the problem runs deeper than just a sexist society. If it was only ever women being murdered, then I think we could lay the sum total of blame for murder and abuse in general squarely with sexist men. In this case, can we really attribute all of the blame to one misogynist male, an apparent abberration of an otherwise perfect society? Yes, the law says that we can and should. And this will be been done, gavel smacked and case closed? Not that I condone or advocate for misogyny. And for some reason I feel I must head off those knee-jerk assumptions and insinuations at the pass. It's a sick society overall. One where people and the needs of people are being displaced by a political and economic ideology that is incompatible with life in general. It's democracy and progress and all kinds of things happening in haphazard manner around the world. It's a new society where risk is transferred elsewhere, and people are made subserviant to an abominable economic and political ideology, instead of the reverse situation where democracy and the system serve the needs and aspirations of the majority of humanity. The system is losing its soul if it ever had one.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:24
#76
remind
When was the last time men were mass murdered fidel at the gym? or elsewhere?
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:40
#77
Well to be fair remind, many mass murderers have murdered men as well and I do think what Fidel says has some validity. It is a societal issue. People do feel estranged from and apart from society. So busy trying to measure up that they are so filled with hate and resentment they kill to feel better. It is true that many of these mass murderers feel they do not fit in enough, or can't progress upwards - in a world in which we are all told if we don't succeed it is our fault. This is by no means a way of saying this man should be sympathized with, it is just pointing out that society is a strange thing and the forces that dictate how we should live, how much we should make, etc.are and do form these types of people's murderous rages.
We have to wonder why the US has the most mass morders. We have to examine cultural differences. The problem is that no matter how disgusting this man was, and his actions are, we have to ask questions about what society we live in, that allows for this to happen. We have to figure out how to approach these topics and study them so that we can at least, hopefully, change things in this world.
I absolutely have no problem accepting that this man was a woman hating pig, and that society as a whole (masculine culture really) is a large part of the problem. But I don't think it is the only part.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:46
#78
Men who have been mass murdered have never been murdered as men nor by women. I'm with remind on this; Fidel's post seems to be trivializing the recent mass murders of women by gender-neutralizing them.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:48
#79
I have hesitated writing anything, because I don't want to take away from the analysis around misogyny being at the heart of such things. That's not my intention.
I just want to add that this incident also reveals a great deal about our society and people with mental illness. This guy was clearly sending out all kinds of signals that he was suffering some very serious mental health problems beyond just 'problems' with women. (Unless of course you want to include extreme misogyny as a mental illness as to opposed to the garden variety misogyny all to prevelant all around us). There had to be people in his life from co-workers, to family, to people who knew him and came across his blog that could see this. The signs are self-evident of severe emotional and social cognitive problems - yet no one did anything. Like most people they probably just dismissed it as some kind of 'phase' or whatever.
These women payed the price for western society's failure to deal with not only misogyny, but also mental illness. Sadley we seem to want to deny how prevelant both are and how dangerous not addressing these issues are- primarly for women.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:51
#80
Well, I must say, thank you to both Fidel and Stargazer for situating this abhorrent crime in a context that progressive people can relate to.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:51
#81
remind
stargazer, I felt fidel's post was basiically excusing men for their misogyny, and I will not accept that.
I noted above the role that whacked out religions play in this type of incident and other societal ills.
Fri, 2009-08-07 16:59
#82
remind
Well, I must say, thank you to both Fidel and Stargazer for situating this abhorrent crime in a context that progressive people can relate to.
Oh...so people who do not see it that way are not progressive eh unionist? nice slam!
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:05
#83
Snert
Well to be fair remind, many mass murderers have murdered men as well
I think Martin is correct; I can't think of any mass murderer who killed men specifically for being men, nor any in particular who even killed only men. There have been a few serial killers who restricted their victims to men, but for specific sexual purposes.
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:13
#84
there has been much unfortunate twisting of meaning in religious understanding.
'religion' can be blamed for much, just as other institutions can be criticized.
in this case, the theology expressed by the sick writer in the OP would better have been balanced with some other perspectives in various traditions, including his own, and/ or some very good therapy.
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:14
#85
I'm thinking of the guy who took down a bunch of people (students) at Kent University. The guy who took out all those people at a MacDonalds, not to mention all the other murderous rampages which occurred at places of employment by ex employees. Even the Son of Sam murdered men and women (of course for him the men were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time).
I am not discounting that misogyny placed a huge roll, but I think, as I said above, it is broader than that and I do believe that class plays a factor here as well.
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:19
#86
remind
men were not killed for being men
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:27
#87
Snert
I thought about workplace killings, and I suppose that somewhere, at some time, some guy went to his workplace and killed several men, but I would expect, in that case, that he had a specific grudge against them (typical of workplace mass murderers) or that they were all men because of the nature of the job.
James Huberty, the San Ysidro, California mass murderer, was trying to kill immigrants (they were the target of his particular grudge).
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:27
#88
Remind, all I meant was that "crime happens because there are criminals" doesn't wash with me. Societies and cultures like ours that are sexist to the core; that treat women like objects of gratification and as cheap labour; will inevitably produce crimes of every kind, including the Marc Lepine variety. Focusing on the individual criminal (who often is too dead to punish...) leads to the kind of tabloid idiocy found in the other threads here (krazy glue and sabucco), without even hinting at what we must do to eliminate such horrendous treatment of women. "The criminal is to blame" is a neat way for the right-wing to ignore the cause and the cure - and of course, the rich and powerful are never the ones who commit these atrocities. They don't need to. They run a whole system which grinds women underfoot.
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:33
#89
writer
Agreed.
Fri, 2009-08-07 17:34
#90
writer
Though sometimes the rich do it for kicks.
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:11
#91
Unionist: all I meant was that "crime happens because there are criminals" doesn't wash with me.
Who said anything this simplistic?
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:12
#92
writer, i can't help asking: what did you mean by post #73?
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:16
#93
writer
No trouble, martin: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=word
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:27
#94
remind
Unionist: all I meant was that "crime happens because there are criminals" doesn't wash with me.Who said anything this simplistic?
No one, nor even infered it.
Fri, 2009-08-07 19:09
#95
Well, since you're all so curious - remind said it - and remind inferred it - when she said this:
stargazer, I felt fidel's post was basiically excusing men for their misogyny, and I will not accept that.
Fidel looked to the social causes of such crimes - and remind said this was excusing "MEN" (not criminal murderers - but "MEN") for their misogyny.
Fri, 2009-08-07 19:11
#96
Unionist: all I meant was that "crime happens because there are criminals" doesn't wash with me.
Who said anything this simplistic?
Thanks for reading and commenting on the rest of my post.
Fri, 2009-08-07 19:22
#97
remind
Well, since you're all so curious - remind said it - and remind inferred it - when she said this:stargazer, I felt fidel's post was basiically excusing men for their misogyny, and I will not accept that.Fidel looked to the social causes of such crimes - and remind said this was excusing "MEN" (not criminal murderers - but "MEN") for their misogyny.
Nope won't excuse it to just being "criminal murders" either
Fri, 2009-08-07 19:51
#98
remind
Oh yes let's diminish because it is women slaughtered in one fell swoop.
If it happened in a synagogue it would be classified as a hate crime
or in a black baptist church, etc etc
but because it happened to women, in a woman's gym, it is simply just another crime of violence by a "mentally ill" person.
Fuck! That is sickeniing on so many levels.
Fri, 2009-08-07 20:06
#99
Well to be fair remind, many mass murderers have murdered men as wellI think Martin is correct; I can't think of any mass murderer who killed men specifically for being men, nor any in particular who even killed only men. There have been a few serial killers who restricted their victims to men, but for specific sexual purposes.
According to [url=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_v.htm#gender]US federal crime stats [/url], 1973-2006:
- Males experienced higher victimization rates than females for all types of violent crime except rape/sexual assault.
According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most murder victims were male, 79% in 2006.
===
Should we be concerned about violent crimes of all types where females are the victims? Absolutely. Yes!
Fri, 2009-08-07 20:13
#100
I remember a police officer on CBC news a few years ago commenting on murder crimes in NYC. He is an emigre from Lebanon, and he said he couldnt understand the motivations for murder from Lebanon to NYC. He said that in his birth country, people are murdered for a reason as a rule. ie long running ethnic conflicts, war etc. But in NYC, he discovered that a street person could be murdered for five bucks, or a teenager shot to death for his boom box(portable stereo). It made no sense to him.
A police official published a report on homicides in Chicago a number of years ago. He concluded that there is a link between homelessness and violence. He noticed a link between rising rents and homicides. Street gangs evicted from one slum area have to go marauding into neighborhoods of rival gangs looking for squats to live.
And I'm not sure if the US leads in homicide rates. In countries like Venezuela, Mexico etc, women probably shouldnt go into bars or "cantinas" by themselves. Venezuela is a very macho country, and the men often carry pistols. They assume, or at least when I was there about 19 years ago, that women who go into bars are loose women and are likely prostitutes. I'm not condoning the macho culture or misogyny, it's just the way it is for some developing countries. And I think we have to work on developing respect for both genders equally in every country.
Fri, 2009-08-07 20:17
#101
but because it happened to women, in a woman's gym, it is simply just another crime of violence by a "mentally ill" person.
I hope that is not refereing to my post above (#78). That is certainly not what I meant. This was and is a hate crime against women that comes from the deep well of misogyny in western society.
The point I was making is that we are ignoring both misogyny and mental illnesses issues at our peril. Well, not 'ours' so much as women's. And that this attack on women reveals both in a very stark way. The way our society reacts to people who are clearly mentally ill - but look 'normal' has been on my mind a lot lately.