Feminist viewpoints on prostitution and sex work Volume 3

It is a fact that when neighbourhoods complain, the streetwalkers have to go to largely industrial areas to ply their trade so there are no complaints. This of course, leads to greater violence against them since the violent feel there is less chance of being caught or interrupted.

no,, i support decriminalization which in spite of people trying to confuse the issue, doe not mean a free for all with no rules.

legalization implies that some criminal code provisions will remain. we want to be taken out of the criminal code and to not be treated like criminals for our choice in occupation.

decriminalization in new zealand came with rules and regulations in the form of health and labour standards.

yes, we should decriminalize the whole industry. trafficking, kidnapping, extortion, rape, assault, child exploitation are all illegal already. if a business owners is engaging in these criminal activities they should face the full force of the law.

how will we discover dangerous conditions? through out reach and education. also through safety inspections. these bad business owners will still have to advertise, it should be the job of sex industry inspectors to audit numbers of businesses and to compare those to phone numbers and ads. it will very quickly become clear if some one is operating outside of the accepted standards and they can be delt with appropriately- jail, execution....i would bring back the death penalty for the exploiters of children....

our planned sex industry working group/review boards can work to define the role and resposibilities of inspectors and  it can be refined as time goes on.

yes, it will not all be smooth. no it will not be easy.but this is the hard work required if we are affect meaningful change for canadian sex workers. we need system wide reform in terms of barriers to supports and to be removed from the criminal code.

we are not criminals we are workers and deserve our rights as such.

prostitution is leagl...we are not criminals. it is well estabilished.we are just treated as such through the use of all the "other"provisions in the criminal code.

we are not talking about pot, we are talking about people. the materialfrom NZ speaks very plainly abot the PRA and scrutiny of business owners.

qiote frankly, this entire argument about it diminishing all women is ridiculous. if you raise the value of one group of women, you raise the value of all women. to continue to seperate us as if we are different or less, will only leadto more violence against us.

we are people and we are workers deserving rights and protection.

i thought we were pushing for unions.....in my perspective decrim demands union building....not sure i understnad what you mean wage zombie......

i understand the principles your position represents and have stated before, they are nobel ideas and goals. however, to jeopardize peoples safety to reach these goals is counter productive.

continue to try to end the sex industry. but stabilize our safety now. we all agree that right here right now the sex industry exists. we must take action to stabilize the safety of people working in the sex industry.

we must give them dignity at work, access to resources,tools to make safe decisions about their work and policies designed to break down barriers to support of the past.we must create ways for workers and consumers to report dangerous conditions, yes consumers. these guys see these places and are a huge asset in trying to combat exploitation. if we criminalize them, how will that happen? we must create more reasonable and accessible licensing procedures, develope exiting supports and specialized counselling for the survivours of violence.

if we really want to do something about dangers facing sex workers, then let's do something. it will not be eradicated over night and we can at least agree on that. so in the mean time why make it hard on people working in the industry?why not make what you have all described as such horrible conditions into at least stabile and accountable? why criinalize it and push it underground?

it seems to me that by shining a light on the industry and opening it up under decriminaliztion woulld serve both our purposes. we ccould begin to elminate dangerous work environments and weed out criminals and continue to work on building a society where sex work indeed IS only done out of choice(not because of poverty,etc) or perhaps is no longer needed at all.

but your view is from outside of the industry. you will not be personally affected if our icomes are undermined by criminalization of our customers and the businesses where we work.

if you read the charter challenge testimony, and i have. all sides are in agreement that the current legal framework is not working. that is the only matter for the court to decide. arethe laws doing what they were intended to do, protect people? the answer is clearly no, from all sides.

the current legal frame work will fall and we will have to decide what will be implmented in its place, so far it's between new zealand and sweden. sweden are already reviewing their decision as is described in a link i provided in the sex worker rights forum.

new zealand has seen many benefits from decriminalizing sex work. we support the industry standards and decriminalization model becuse it supports greater choices for workers.

Loretta wrote:

susan davis wrote:

 

decriminalization in new zealand came with rules and regulations in the form of health and labour standards.

Existing legal work sites don't receive adequate inspection and enforcement around safety, working conditions and fair treatment of workers. I doubt that this will work in practice and the material from NZ seems to verify that.

It does seem fairly comprehensive to me, actually:

The OSH guidelines are pretty comprehensive:

A sex worker is “at work” for the purposes of OSH when they are providing sexual services. There are Occupational Safety and Health guidelines have been developed by OSH in consultation with NZPC, sex workers and brothel operators. These guidelines are available from the OSH website.

Sex Industry - A Guide to Occupational Health and Safety in the New Zealand

WARNING THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS SEXUALLY EXPLICIT MATERIAL

During the passage of the Prostitution Reform Bill a majority of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee members recommended that health and safety guidelines should be developed for the sex industry. The Department agreed to this course of action and led the process. The Department consulted with stakeholders, the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective (NZPC), self-employed sex workers, and owner/operators of commercial sex industry establishments. Relevant government agencies such as the Ministry of Health (MoH), Local Government New Zealand, the New Zealand Police, and the ACC were also consulted.

The Guide sets out the relevant health and safety duties that are necessary for owners, operators, employees, and other parties in the sex industry. It aims to provide practical means of achieving those duties by dealing with sex worker health, workplace amenities, and psychosocial factors arising out of the industry. The emphasis is on covering a broad range of relevant topics applicable to all sex workers to assist them to implement best practice in their own workplaces. The Guide is supplemented by fact sheets giving specific advice on topics of importance to the document's users.

Part One: Application of this Guide

Glossary of Terms

• 1: Introduction
• 2: References in this Guide
• 3: Roles and Responsibilities

Part Two: Sex Worker Health

• 4: Sexual Health Education for Sex Workers, their Clients and Management
• 5: Sexual Health Assessment for Sex Workers
• 6: Personal Protective Equipment
• 7: Reproductive Health
• 8: Overuse Disorders

Part Three: Workplace Amenities

• 9: Cleanliness of Workplace Amenities
• 10: First Aid
• 11: Fire Safety
• 12: Heating and Cooling
• 13: Lighting

Part Four: Psychosocial Factors

• 14: Security and Safety from Violence
• 15: Alcohol
• 16: Drugs
• 17: Smoking in the Workplace
• 18: Complaints
• 19: Employee Participation
• 20: Workplace Documents

Appendices

• 1: Roles of Regulatory Agencies
• 2: Accident Recording and Notification
• 3: New Zealand Prostitutes Collective
• 4: Department of Labour Offices
• 5: Health Agencies

Fact Sheets

• 1: Safety and Security Guidelines for Sex Workers Who Provide Outcall
• 2: Examination of Clients Prior to Provision of Service
• 3: Action to be Taken in the Event of Condom Breakage and Slippage
• 4: Minimum Employment Rights
• 5: Employee Participation Systems
• 6: ACC
• 7: Health and Safety Information Resources
• 8: Smoke-free Resources

An excert from the reports mentioned earlier:

"The PRA has had a marked effect in safeguarding the rights of sex workers. Removing the taint of illegality has empowered sex workers by reducing the opportunity for coercion and exploitation."

The report says many of the perceptions held about the sex industry are based on stereotypes and a lack of information.

Lianne Dalziel said the report shatters several myths with the following findings:

• Coercion is not widespread.
• The links between crime and prostitution are tenuous and the report found no evidence of a specific link between them.
  
• Fewer than 17 per cent said they are working to support drug or alcohol use, although when broken down by sector street-based sex workers are more likely to report needing to pay for drugs or alcohol (45 per cent).

Much of the reporting on the numbers of sex workers and underage involvement in prostitution has been exaggerated.

There is no link in New Zealand between the sex industry and human trafficking.

so now you are opposed to the swedish model too.....? alomost everyone aggrees that workers must be decriminalized....but you think that removing our criminal status will not help? i am mean save lives, the lives of sex workers. you feel that we should not decrim workers at all as it will be in opposition to your political view...?you do realize people are dying right?

You know, all arguments are lost as soon as someone mentions "men's penis pleasures" or "selling your vagina". I mean come on. This isn't solely about men. It is about women (or at least I thought so) but I can see that these arguments always come down to men's "penis pleasures" and that is shallow and short-sighted and does sfa to help workers NOW, as in real life.

You can wait for utopia all your life, leaving it as is (status quo) or criminalzing workers is not going to help any of these women.

I noticed remind, after all your talk of "genital access" you never once looked at the actual definition of prostitution, which is in the decrim thread prior to this.

So what are your solutions, short of ending men's "penis pleasures"? Any at all? Any that would apply NOW, in the real world?

Have any of you thought how this effects male sex workers? Massage parlours? Strip joints? Since from what I gather you're all for abolution, please tell me how you think sex work will magically disappear?

Pornography is free, it's an issue, and it influences some men to treat women as recepticles. Massage parlours (or rub and tugs) treat foreign workers sometimes like pure crap. Then swingers clubs? No word on them? That's full genital contact there. You think all women wish to be dragged to orgy's with strangers against their will, to please their men? Why not focus on this too. Hell, just state that the only sex a woman can have is between a man and a woman with no exchange of money, gifts, status, power, etc. should be the only sex women can have. After the sex workers, are you all going to go after porn?

I'm not sure I want you guys dictating how and when I get to use my lady parts. Or anyone else's.

they.....?i am right here. i do make money from sex work.
quick, let's round up all the sex workers, it's their fault the environment is in a mess, and us poverty stricken, abused, drug addicted people( as described by you both) are also responsible for the economic crisis!!!!
 we are also the cause of violence against women!!!some body burn these witches, i mean sex workers, i mean coitis sellers, i mean vagina sales people, i mean unregualted ejaculation responses profiteer...penis exploiters must die, disappear, be gotten rid of.....
you people are really showing your true colours. neither of you ever even supported the swedish model. you want to end our industry and play osterich as if the sex industry and poverty will magically evaporate.
i guess since the title of the thread is feminist view points on prostitution and sex work, these sorts of things are ok to say. i have to say i find it very enlightening to hear your true wishes in regard to the sex industry.it demonstrates why you seem to have an unrelenting desire to try to debunk everything put forth here by supporters of decrim and really had no plans for implementation of the swedish model. deep down you just want us gone.
it's along way from how you felt in this thread.....is it me?did i offend or upset you soem how to make you do a complete trun around?
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/labour-and-consumption/sex-industry-association
back then you supported some of our ideas.....

so now you are denying my assertion of being competant to form consent?make a choice...?or is it only trafficking victims and prostituted people who deserve the choice, and even then limited only to a choice to exit..../

do you not support choice for women?people?or you only approve of choice if it is a choice you agree with...?

I think there are a few things that need to get added to the social security net for women (whether one believes in the Swedish Model of prostitution law or decriminalization) in order to see less women and children entering the sex industry for survival. 

We need to seriously consider the state of our systems for children in government care. 

We need to lobby our governmental leaders for accessible legal aid for women.

We need to lobby our governmental leaders to reinstate funding to counseling services, mental health services, addiction services, programming for people who are disabled etc. and acknowledge that lack of funding to social services for our most vulnerable leaves a very dangerous vacuum. 

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but just some examples.

Does anyone else feel that the argument of choice will be stagnant until we can look practically at the different systems that hold women, children, and certain ethnic groups at higher risk of performing survival-sex? 

I feel helpless reading these forums as someone who lives in BC as we continue to elect leaders that tell us (by where they allocate funding) that they believe our provinces most vulnerable people are disposable. 

Fortunate, 

I have to disagree with the idea that radical feminists are more concerned about making men unhappy than protecting the collective rights of women. 

There is a focus on male demand for paid sex within radical feminist ideologies on pornography and prostitution, yes. Radical feminists who advocate for the Swedish Model of Prostitution law are asking men to look at how the demand for paid sex fuels a global industry where the average "worker" enters at least four years before they are deemed eligible to consent to do so, where women of certain ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds are vastly overrepresented, where women in general are vastly overrepresented (has anyone wondered why, if the sex industry is really a gender-equal zone, more men aren't selling and more women aren't buying?). If anyone wants links, they can personally volunteer to teach me, the computer illiterate, how to post them. 

Abolitionists are not asking men to be miserable, they're asking them to be responsible. 

ADueck wrote:

And really, it shouldn't start with men, it should start with boys. As a society we need to raise our sons to have deep respect for women and their bodies before they grow up to be men, because if they haven't, they aren't properly grown up anyway.

No one mentioned Religion yet, but I will. (I am an atheist/ humanist male)
I reject all that says women shall be submissive to men.

More compulsory credits for "Gender Relations"(a suggestion).

And tell religious fanatics to shut up.

Susan, this:

Quote:

we are also the cause of violence against women!!!some body burn these witches, i mean sex workers, i mean coitis sellers, i mean vagina sales people, i mean unregualted ejaculation responses profiteer...penis exploiters must die, disappear, be gotten rid of.....
you people are really showing your true colours. neither of you ever even supported the swedish model. you want to end our industry and play osterich as if the sex industry and poverty will magically evaporate.
i guess since the title of the thread is feminist view points on prostitution and sex work, these sorts of things are ok to say.

is over the top and unnecessary.  No one has advocated burning witches or sex workers.  And I think you might have misunderstood and misinterpreted Loretta's post regarding the Swedish model.  No one has said they want sex workers to die or disappear.

And there's nothing wrong with feminists who dislike the sex trade industry on feminist grounds to want the INDUSTRY (not the workers) to be put out of business.  I agree with you that it's not likely to happen, but there are real feminist critiques to be made of selling sex and commodifying women's bodies.  And people are allowed to make those arguments on babble without being accused of wanting to kill sex workers, a position no one has taken.

Please try to see what people are saying instead of pinning motives and positions to people that they have not taken.

Sorry, I didn't word that well.  Just because you think an industry is problematic and you want to see it gone, doesn't mean that you want the workers to "disappear" or "die" or never find work again.

And there's a difference between putting forth the argument that if you want to outlaw the sex trade that workers will die as a result of being forced underground and not being able to get the help they need, and putting forth the argument that if you want to outlaw the sex trade, it means you WANT people to die as a result.

Nobody here wants to kill sex workers or see them die.  There is disagreement about the best way to ensure safety.  There is also a disagreement about the value of the industry.  Both are legitimate areas of debate.

Michelle wrote:

Susan, this:

Quote:

we are also the cause of violence against women!!!some body burn these witches, i mean sex workers, i mean coitis sellers, i mean vagina sales people, i mean unregualted ejaculation responses profiteer...penis exploiters must die, disappear, be gotten rid of.....
you people are really showing your true colours. neither of you ever even supported the swedish model. you want to end our industry and play osterich as if the sex industry and poverty will magically evaporate.
i guess since the title of the thread is feminist view points on prostitution and sex work, these sorts of things are ok to say.

is over the top and unnecessary.  No one has advocated burning witches or sex workers.  And I think you might have misunderstood and misinterpreted Loretta's post regarding the Swedish model.  No one has said they want sex workers to die or disappear.

And there's nothing wrong with feminists who dislike the sex trade industry on feminist grounds to want the INDUSTRY (not the workers) to be put out of business.  I agree with you that it's not likely to happen, but there are real feminist critiques to be made of selling sex and commodifying women's bodies.  And people are allowed to make those arguments on babble without being accused of wanting to kill sex workers, a position no one has taken.

Please try to see what people are saying instead of pinning motives and positions to people that they have not taken.

Michelle, with all due respect, can you hear and feel the frustration here? There is a very good reason why some people think this is about man hating. Read some of the posts thrown up here by remind, and her focus on male ejaculation, penis pleasure or whatever new thing she is calling it today.On top of that the entire "selling vagina's" etc. Michelle, it is getting old and tired. One cannot have a debate or discussion when it is reduced to male sperm.

I am a feminist and these kinds of words seek to reduce the quality of discussion and have the effect of putting everyone (including me) in defensive mode.

There has to be a balance, and right now there is none. I would be mighty peeved to if every argument I made was counteracted with responses such as "males ejaculatory rights". That isn't debate. That is silencing, marginalizing and insulting.

I am not saying, "hey let's give men priority" because that is not the position I take, but this whole reduction of sex work to male ejacualtion is narrow and not going to get us anywhere.

ok michells but try to imagine how all of this demonizing us makes me feel?

imagine if nurses were discussed as puss,urine,blood and excrement profiteers. this type of language being used in regards to my choosen profession and continuing refusals by some members to respect the terms put forth by the group being discussed themselves is a complete insult. nowhere is unregulated ejacualtion responses profiteer a word accepted by sex workers or prostituted people.

and references to sex workers some how being responsible for taking attnetion away from the economic crisis and environmental disaster facing us all as well as being responsible for escalating violence against women because we..."they" profit from the unregulated ejaculation responses is as ridiculous as the means for discovering witches back in the day. it is othering sex workers as the cause the worlds problems and advocates that we some how don't deserve to heard in light of everything else..... last in line, first to get cut.

 the posters in question claim to support the swedish model which involves decriminalzing us and respecting us as human beings but then continue to belittle and bash us for wanting freedom of choice. the truth should be known that it is not rights for women being sought here, it's the irradication of the sex industry...which is as old as poverty.

getting rid of the industry means getting rid of us...how exactly will that be accomplished?i find it extremely threatening to have to hear my job spoken of this way and to have no clear plan to see it through....no jobs. i feel as if some posters are constantly skating the line, trying to upset me and then pretending as if they care about sex workers/prostituted people.

the dripping sarcasm in these terms is discriminatory, i am not the only person to read them. it sets an example of it being ok to belittle and ridicule our arguements using blatently offensive terms it what should be a discussion about real options, not feelings and opinions which everyone is entitled to but real tangible solutions to these problems.

i have yet to hear any plans from the other side, instead all we hear are statements as above.

Well, I WAS tempted to start a new word association thread with the first phrase being "Unregulated ejaculation responses" in the writers' forum, just to see what kind of free association people could come up with...

For instance, would a wet dream count as an unregulated ejaculatory response?  How would you go about regulating ejaculation responses anyhow?

A subject for another thread, I guess...

Suzan,

I haven't seen your ideas on policy revisions but I would like to. I have a difficult time keeping up with how frequently people post on this forum so there are things that escape me.

If you have time, feel free to post the link again or send me the link personally and I will read it and let you know what I think. I always appreciate when people send me reading material, particularly when it covers subjects that feminists for the Swedish Model, and feminists for full decriminalization both agree with. I think these areas of common ground are the places where activism will be the most rapidly successful. This is not to say that I think there shouldn't be activism around the points of contention, but it will simply be slower going.