Feminist viewpoints on prostitution and sex work Volume 3

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Tue, 2009-11-17 16:24

JMartin

I was under the impression that there was a specific one she was referring to that had to do with reinstating governmental funding to social services to protect vulnerable people groups. If this is the case, let me know the title and I will do some searching for it in the last thread.

I am interested in responding to the posts and am certainly willing to wade through the threads if I'm looking for something specific that will promote quality discussion. I am overwhelmed by the pace on these forums, so that should account for my lack of response to previous links and posts. Once I've read one article, the thread is already closed and we're on to a new one.

Stargazer, I relate with your frustration over people repeating the same arguments over and over. Suzan and Stargazer, what social services need to recieve funding in order to make vulnerable people groups less at risk of the sale of sex for survival? I listed a few. If you had the task of completing the list, what would you put on it?

Tue, 2009-11-17 17:12

#53

remind

Jmartin, this thread covers where my decision was finally concluded from, upon rereading it several times recently, and talking to women, FN and white, elsewhere, and applying it to my life experience, past and current, along with projecting that knowlege into the future.

Though I do not live currently on Coast Salish territory, my daughter and granddaughter do, in fact they live currently in acknowleged territory, so I must take my direction from the women in those communties, and hear their voices, they are the protectors of my children, and their lived experience must be respected, by me.

Quote:
Aboriginal girls are hunted down and prostituted, and the perpetrators go uncharged with child sexual assault and child rape. These predators, pervasive in our society, roam with impunity in our streets and take advantage of those Aboriginal children with the least protection. While we are speaking out for the women in the downtown eastside of Vancouver, we include women from First Nations Reserves, and other Aboriginal communities, most of whom have few resources and limited choices. We include them because AWAN members also originate from those communities, and AWAN members interact regularly with Native women from these communities.

The Aboriginal Women's Action Network opposes the legalization of prostitution, and any state regulation of prostitution that entrenches Aboriginal women and children in the so-called "sex trade." We hold that legalizing prostitution in Vancouver will not make it safer for those prostituted, but will merely increase their numbers. Contrary to current media coverage of the issue, the available evidence suggests that it would in fact be harmful, would expand prostitution and would promote trafficking, and would only serve to make prostitution safer and more profitable for the men who exploit and harm prostituted women and children. Although many well-meaning people think that decriminalization simply means protecting prostituted women from arrest, it also refers, dangerously, to the decriminalization of johns and pimps. In this way prostitution is normalized, johns multiply, and pimps and traffickers become legitimated entrepreneurs. Say "No" to this lack of concern for marginalized women and children, who in this industry are expected to serve simply as objects of consumption! The Aboriginal Women's Action Network opposes the legalization of brothels for the 2010 Olympics. We refuse to be commodities in the so-called "sex industry" or offer up our sisters and daughters to be used as disposable objects for sex tourists.

A harm-reduction model that claims to help prostituted women by moving them indoors to legal brothels, not only would not reduce the harm to them, but would disguise the real issues. There is no evidence that indoor prostitution is safer for the women involved. Rather, it is just as violent and traumatic. Prostitution is inherently violent, merely an extension of the violence that most prostituted women experience as children. We should aim not merely to reduce this harm, as if it is a necessary evil and/or inescapable, but strive to eliminate it altogether. Those promoting prostitution rarely address class, race, or ethnicity as factors that make women even more vulnerable. A treatise can be written about Aboriginal women's vulnerability based on race, socio-economic status and gender but suffice it to say that we are very over-represented in street-level prostitution. There may even be a class bias behind the belief that street prostitution is far worse than indoor forms. It is not the street per se or the laws for that matter, which are the source of the problem, but prostitution itself which depends on a sub-class of women or a degraded caste to be exploited. A major factor contributing to the absence of attention given to the women who have gone missing women in Vancouver is the lack of police response, and the insidious societal belief that these women were not worthy of protection, a message that is explicitly conveyed to the johns, giving them the go-ahead to act toward these women with impunity. If we want to protect the most vulnerable women, we could start by decriminalizing prostituted women, not the men who harm them.

Tue, 2009-11-17 17:43

#54

JMartin

Remind,

I agree with your position completely. Thanks for posting it.

Tue, 2009-11-17 17:55

#55

JMartin

I recently attended a forum in which the AWAN presented. The representative requested several things from the audience. Please forgive me if the wording isn't identical, or if I've got my facts wrong. I'm hesitant sometimes to relay information from this group as I don't carry the personal authority of being Aboriginal, and from what I understand, AWAN is a group of women who are very strategic about their presentation and use of language.

1) Write a letter to your MP requesting that an investigation be done into the police complacency in the case of the missing Aboriginal women and children.

2)Consider hosting a family who come to Vancouver to participate in the march for the missing women in February.

I think these things are extremely important things to consider.

Tue, 2009-11-17 18:47

#56

remind

Quote:
If you had the task of completing the list, what would you put on it?

Am going to answer this, from my perceptions, in a bit of a round about way....

What I have viewed happening in BC since 2002 in particular, is an increased amount of young women, Firsts Nations and white, in increasing amounts on the streets of Nanaimo, Victoria, Vancouver, Kelowna, Kamloops and Prince George. This is direct observations on my part as opposed to the 2 decades prior.

Under Gordon Campbell's government, people are required to have 2 years work, out of the last 10, in order to qualify for income assistance. This has meant that women are the one' most greatly impacted by this rule, and indeed that WoC, especially First Nations women, are unduly targeted.

Young First Nations women from remote and impoverished reserves go into the city looking for work and escape. They are not hired in mainstream societal jobs because of racist sterotypes and racism. Now they have no money.....where do they go? They can't get a job to someday perhaps collect welfare as part of the social safey net they are entitled to access, and they cannot collect income assistance either.

They do not get hired in large amounts by the legal sex industry, also because of entrenched racism, so where do they go...

Everything is rigged against them....they have no choice...

Then we have young white girls over 16, fleeing from home, or being kicked out, who also cannot collect income assisatnce, unless they had worked for 2 years while a teen ager. So they "choose" the so called sex industry too.

Then we have the young mothers, who are fleeing abuse, who most likely have not worked 2 years out of 10 either, they have child support (if they can get it) and child tax credits to live on, each month.

where do they "choose" to get their money from to feed themselves and their children, if there are no min wage jobs available?

in my opinion, the first place to start in BC is get the damn 2 year threshhold dropped, and get a significant earnings deductable in place. Meaning one can earn up to x amount additional dollars and still get a full cheque and housing subsidy. It needs to be much larger than it is currently.

and re-enstate wide ranging income assistance funded educational programs, which they could fund if the "Job Wave" feeding at the trough actions were abolished

Tue, 2009-11-17 19:38

#57

susan davis susan davis's picture

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/sex-worker-rights/policy-and-procedure-manual-revisions

here is where i talk abut systematic reform and how people can begin it in a meaniful and inclusive way.

the above article from AWAN in regards to our rounding up sex workers is the anti brothel campaign i refer to as completely undermining the true intentions of that action by misrepresenting our intentions to the public,government and indeed anyone who would listen as is demonstrated by it's presence here. i have posted my proof of its misrepresentation of our plans for canada's first sex worker cooperative and so will not bother again. it seems to delite some posters to perpetuate these ies as if it some how undermines my reputation. the plans for canada's first sex worker cooperative are posted here for everyone to see and no where in those plans did we ever talk about olympic brothels or rounding workers up to bring them inside.

www.wccsip.ca

i would appreciate if these claims were not repeatedly thrown in my face in an effort to upset me and undermine the true purpose of the WCCSIP.

if you wish to discuss our plans, please feel free to add your suggestions to the thread dedicated to the coop.

remind, you can play he said she said all day, read what you wrote and so did everyone else. don't pretend to repsect me or my opinion and then behave in a discriminating and belittleing manner and expect me to play school yard with you.

you constantly and consistently belittle me, our plans, sex workers and our work.

Tue, 2009-11-17 19:54

#58

remind

Excuse me, what did AWAN lie about according to you susan? Because I have never been quite clear on what exactly it was and if it was about the brothels for 2010, that you wanted, I do not believe it was a lie.

And I have every right to state where I am coming from on this with out being accused of trying to upset you, for gawd's sake

what? should I start saying to you as a point of debate that you are saying what you are saying in order to upset me?

wasn't even in dialogue with you for pete's sake.

People do have rights to their own opinions on this issue

Tue, 2009-11-17 21:51

#59

StCFM

As a former prostitute who is now working on helping women exit the trade (Setting the Captives Free Ministries Inc.), whether they chose to be in it or were trafficked, I have a lot to say about this. Personally, I have been out of the business for 10 years, after having been in it for 17 years. I worked on the high stroll, low stroll, escort and massage. Currently I am finishing my BA (Grad 2010). I have written a paper on domestic trafficking in Canada, which is published and online at www.cncew.ca (The Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women, of which I am also a member). Before I began my BA I was a counselor for sex workers at PEERS (Prostitutes Education Empowerment Resource Society) for two years. From this experience I can affirm that the majority of my clients and the other working women I know do not want to be in the business. For most of us it was a matter of survival or a choice made most without fully knowing the consequences thereof.

A good paradigm for considering the consequences of prostitution can be seen through the First Nation Native people's (Indigenous or Aboriginal) medicine wheel concept. There are four quadrants in the wheel which represent the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical parts of being human. Our whole being is affected by these four components. In the mental area of the wheel are: self-image, communication, assertiveness, family problems, self criticism, and parenting. In the spiritual area: belief in a creator, sacred ceremonies, ethnic values/morals, restorative healing, and forgiveness. In the emotional area: identity/ express feelings, conflicts/anger, self-esteem, relationships, grief/loss, trust, suicidal thoughts, abuse, and family breakdown. Finally, in the physical area are: health, finances, friends/support system, employment, education, legal, addictions, recreation/hobbies, and sex.

When I looked at the medicine wheel I asked myself, how many of these components are affected by selling sex as a means for living? In my experience, all of them, and not in a positive way! Think about it!!!! Selling your body for sex may seem to be a temporary means to an end (survival) but seldom does anyone get in the business and get out quickly. We end up with post traumatic stress from experiencing bad dates. We experience violence from clients, family and society for being a prostitute. Prostitutes are considered the scum of society or simply an object for a man's sexual release. Men who want prostitution legalized want women to be an open commodity and available for their pleasure. They don't ask or care whether she is happy, healthy, or how old she is.

As for harm reduction to the women through legalization, I don't believe it will happen. I have been sexually abused at a massage parlor and an escort service, both supposedly 'safe' and 'controlled' environments for prostitution, and so have others. Legalizing prostitution will NOT reduce the risk to women. It will not make this 'work' safe, nor will it give dignity, self esteem, or create a healthy lifestyle for women!!! I realize that there are several women fighting for legalization of prostitution, but I know that when they have had enough bad dates themselves they too will want out. Please I implore you to contact your politicians and say DO NOT LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION.

Tue, 2009-11-17 23:28

#60

JMartin

Remind,

Thanks for answering my question. I agree that we need to be taking a serious look at our assisted income and welfare standards. Guaranteed livable income for women would reduce the pressure put on women at risk to become involved in the sex industry.

Susan,

Thanks for reposting the policy revisions thread. I did miss that one entirely and posted some questions and comments I had. It touched on an issue that I've been thinking about for a while: law enforcement.

Whether Canada adopts the Swedish Model, fully decriminalizes, or keeps the existing legal framework, police have a major part to play in the enforcement of the law. Police complacency is a serious problem in BC as demonstrated by the case of the missing women.

How do we re-build the relationship between law enforcement officials and women at risk or prostituted women?

Wed, 2009-11-18 00:58

#61

rework

JMartin wrote:

Rework,

Is it really fair to make assumptions about people's religious or spiritual beliefs based on the fact that they think that education of younger generations on issues like equality and respect is imperative? Which set of religious beliefs should we be associating this with? I know many different abolitionists from all sorts of religious backgrounds including secular humanism and atheist.

Rebuttals are most successful and well recieved when the opponent attacks the argument, not when the opponent makes uneducated guesses about what someone's spiritual beliefs might be and then attempts to stigmatize them for it.

Unless someone openly discusses their spirituality and invites others to comment on it, jabs like "tell the religious fanatics to shut up" are discriminatory and should be considered personal attacks. Even if someone did discuss their spiritual beliefs in regards to this issue (which so far no one has), freedom of religion still sits there in the charter of rights along with freedom of expression and freedom of security.

I can personally testify to the fact that there are people from all sorts of diverse ethnic, cultural, and religious backgrounds that support the Swedish Model of Prostitution Law. I think it's fair to assume that we have no idea where anyone else comes from (especially on an internet forum!!) unless they clearly state so.

Perhaps I should not have quoted him directly.
It was not intended as a rebuttal, and I see no opponents here, or assumed anything. Too terse, agreed. (trying to avoid getting off topic)
I agreed with ADueck's statement (and post # 30)
"it shouldn't start with men, it should start with boys" is the line I should have highlighted.

Mens behaviour pops up often enough, but I don't hear anything specific that will ever change that. I have made suggestions (some may think are odd) to spark debate. Seems it should be the subject of another forum.
Society, culture, and yes, religious education, is all part of it.
Have yet to come across a religion that treats women equally, across the board.
I stand to be corrected.
Are the women here satisfied with what is taught in our schools ?

I have no problem with the religious. I do have a problem with the fanatic religious.
I was told the other day that I'm going to hell because I don't adhere to their version of the bible, stuck in time. morals.

As for the Swedish Model, I object to being criminalized, stigmatized when I choose to hire a surrogate.

Wed, 2009-11-18 02:35

#62

remind

personally, I object to women being racialized, criminalized, stigmatized, objectified, and commodified......

Thank you for your posting StCFM, especially liked the medicine wheel statements...

Wed, 2009-11-18 08:47

#63

susan davis susan davis's picture

remind i posted it a couple times and don't really care that you don't "believe me". it has undermined the true objectives of the coop. we never askedfor olympic brothels, ever or suggested rounding up women into brothels.

welcome to the canadian national coalition of experiential women!!while i do not agree with the sentiments put forth, i respect the CNCEW.

Wed, 2009-11-18 08:55

#64

Michelle

Susan, sorry to do this, but you can't keep posting that people are lying. Please be careful of what you post here - if you would like to post that on your own web site and open yourself to defamation claims, feel free, but you can't do it here.

You can get your point across by stating that you have a difference of opinion, you have a disagreement on the facts of what happened, that they are incorrect or that they have misrepresented (don't say "intentionally") your views/plans etc. But you can't keep saying that people are "lying".

I'm going to edit your posts.

Wed, 2009-11-18 09:10

#65

triciamarie

Michelle wrote:

I'm going to edit your posts.

!!!

Wed, 2009-11-18 09:26

#66

Michelle

Sorry, triciamarie, but we do that when we feel it's necessary. Not very often (hardly at all, in fact), but I say so when I do it or I leave tags in the post saying it has been done (e.g. sometimes you'll see [removed by moderator] in the middle of someone's sentence). We leave as much intact as possible within the post while removing as little as possible. Her posts are edited now, and you'll see there's hardly any change except that I removed her statement about "lying".

It's always been like that here, and it's not going to change. As an organization with pretty much no money at all, we take libel seriously and will protect our site from claims.

Some sites just remove whole posts or threads when there's an issue. We don't do that.

Wed, 2009-11-18 10:24

#67

susan davis susan davis's picture

ok, i understand. sorry, it's a sore point for me as it has been going on since 2007. in a meeting yesterday, people seem to be suddenly realizing the impact of security zones on sex workers ability to earn money during the games and that as we've stated all along, sex workers will experience an economic crash during the games. our cooperative was intended to provide alternative income sources for some workers during the games but has been completely undermined by this campaign. now people are discussing food and shelter for sex workers who will be dipslaced, unable to pay rent, unable to pay for drugs, unable to pay for food and unable tp earn money.

what could have been a respectful legacy and provided the means for workers to take part in the cultural olympics and earn money is completely devastated by the misrepresentation of our plans by these groups. i am to say the least disgusted by the plans for our support being put forth in this regard and am terrified to see how it will unfold.

i will definitely keep people updated as to the final outcome of the lack of planning for support of sex workers during the games. it is fairly typical it seems for our opposition to want to stop any progress forward but to not have any real clear plan asto how to do it their way.

although we never asked for an olympic brothel, the proponents of this misrepresentation of the coop have planned nothing to support sex workers during the games. on top of the anti olympic brothel campaign we have the anti traffickng campaign claiming "big money" for sex workers during the games with numbers like 40,000 women and children being toted as reality....

incidently, for 40,000 women and children to be trafficked in 2 weeks, each athlete, women included would have to have sex with 7 trafficking victims a day...not consentual sex workers, traffcking victims.

as workers migrate here seeking this "big money" promised by these groups all of our incomes are divided as we are depending on local clientel and we are in an economic recession. where are the plans to support these displaced workers to whom "big olympic monies"have been misrepresented? where are the jobs?

already sex workers are beng hustled out of the seymor stroll, one of vancouvers oldest, in order to make room for the american olympic head quarters across from the penthouse. typical business as usual tactics with no consideration for the safety of workers and no clear destination as to where the should "go". the workers on seymour earn high wages, how will they cope with being forced to work in competion with workers who charge $3...?

this situation is a result of misrepresentation of the facts and a lack of any consideration for the workers themselves and how they would be affected.

whether people believe me or not, the facts will become clear. i look forward to reactions from groups invovled in creating the environment that has allowed this to happen.

i would like to hear from these groups as the games unfold and their assertions do not materialize.

Wed, 2009-11-18 10:27

#68

Michelle

Thanks for your understanding, Susan. I hope my small edits didn't interfere with the main message you were trying to get across.

Wed, 2009-11-18 11:59

#69

susan davis susan davis's picture

i don't think it did...i had a pretty good rant above!! i am involved in 3 different committees trying ensure safety and stability during the games for sex workers and let me tell you, it is not going to be pretty. i feel the worst about the joyce/collingwood community in vancouver as that is likely where all of the workers will be displaced to...it is already extremely tense in that community between sex workers and business owners/residents. vigilanti- esque residents"security patrols" are the worst and violence bewteen both sides will likely escalate as a result of the influx of workers fleeing the "security zones".

it's always so frustrating to me to have abolitionists flying up in rage against any actions we propose to stabilize peoples safety when they have no plan as an alternative and really, in my opinion could care less about what happens to workers on the street. if they cared, they would do something or at least have some idea how to achieve their goals with out harming sex workers in the process.......

Wed, 2009-11-18 12:40

#70

remind

Susan, again I simply do not get what you are stating here, as your words fluctuate within your own statements here even. You state first you did not want an olympic brothel, but then you state:

susan davis wrote:
our cooperative was intended to provide alternative income sources for some workers* during the games but has been completely undermined by this campaign

which supports the numerous reports from 2007 and indeed back up what AWAN's statement was at that time, as linked to above.

Is there a nuance that I am missing, or something, as it seems your own accounts from 2007, match their accounts?

then here you say:

susan davis wrote:
already sex workers are beng hustled out of the seymor stroll, one of vancouvers oldest, in order to make room for the american olympic head quarters across from the penthouse. typical business as usual tactics with no consideration for the safety of workers and no clear destination as to where the should "go". the workers on seymour earn high wages, how will they cope with being forced to work in competion with workers who charge $3...?

this situation is a result of misrepresentation of the facts and a lack of any consideration for the workers themselves and how they would be affected.

What misrepresentation of facts? Your accounts to the press from then and now, match AWAN's statements that you wanted olympic brothels...

Do you feel, that we should feel for those "well paid" sex workers who may not be able to "cope" with working along side those First Nations women, who have been so marginalized and exploited that they are forced in prostitution services for 3.00 per john? Personally, I feel for the First Nations women...who have been forced into prostitution, and not so much for those who choose it. Though I am willing to be persuaded that I should feel for those who choose it too...

Would those women who are forced into cut rate 3.00/john rates be able to access your "co-op" services, as I do not believe they would be.

...so it seems to me said "co-op" would be setting it up for a few to make money, as you indicate with your use of "some" workers, while leaving the many out in the streets literally.

Wed, 2009-11-18 13:07

#71

susan davis susan davis's picture

the coop activities for during the games are "alternative income sources" so not sex work related and not a brothel.they do NOT match it remind ...stop baiting me. we did not ever want olympic brothels, we wanted open a cafe/restaurant as described in our plans as we were anticipating exactly what IS happening.an economic crash for sex workers.

i like how you only value the stability of one group of workers. the risks presented by "trafficking" workers from one stroll to another are well documented and known to put workers at risk. as well as the problems for communties to which such workers are being trafficked by residents and police in order to clean up tin time for the olympics are also clear to see.

a coop by it's very nature does not profit the "few". but keep on going denying the potential of our coop cafe/restaurant to actually adress issues you all raise around exiting, jobs for sex workers, tangible marketable skills, the ability to actually ear money outside of the sex industry.....

worker controled safe work space.the coop is owned by sex workers from the DTES some of whom are first nations people. the safe work site/coop brothel is specifically intended to stabilize workers in the dangerous street level trade, to connect them to resources and ensure they are not killed or tortured while working. security guards, panic buttons a place to wash after seeing a client, access to harm reduction supllies....i resent you constantly trying to cast me as an exclusionist who doesn't care about sex workers on the street. it is a misrepresentation of me and my work.i have never advocated for "rounding up"workers into a vegas style line up in a brothel. we have constantly said we favor the steam bath model of business which a rooms for rent business that we felt would accessible to the greates number of workers from varying working conditions.

you have never worked on the street or been raped in the park because you had no where to take the client that was safe. it you think the men in the trial of the missing women and the torture of women in the DTES could not have been prevented by security, stability and the ability to withdraw consent- ie panic button- you are really missing the point of this initiative.

providing jobs to "some workers" is in reference to the restaurant/cafe...we clearly weren't going to beable to create 15o jobs but at least we tried to do something...anything at all to generate other ways for sex workers to earn money during the games.NOT SEX WORK.....ALTERNATIVE INCOME SOURCES, not me trying to open a brothel to benefit"a-list"workers and make money from sex during the games as is being misrepresented here.

it's nice when you make it seem as if i want to profit from the most vulnerable sex workers in vancouver though. i really appreciate once again being cast as somehow trying to profit from the sex work of workers on the street. yup that's me, rounding workers up and only hiring the most beautiful....did you even read our coop plans....? i mean fer christs sakes, talk about not being clear on your posistion....

even in terms f the coop brothel we won public support to create. you yourself demonstrated support of that intiative as a way to combat dangerous working condition in the sex industry association thread.

once again demonizing me and misrepresenting the true goals of canada's first sex worker cooperative.thanks for making my point about this remind. i like the way you misrepresented what i said.

Wed, 2009-11-18 14:13

#72

remind

respectfully susan, I cannot give credit to your claims above for "alternative income source" that is not sex related, in respect to your original plan for your "co-operative"... sure enough it is perhaps what you are trying for these days, which is admirable, but it was not the plan back in 2007/2008. Had you started back then, on what you say you want today, perhaps it would have been functioning as such, by now?

... have taken all of this very seriously, from all persepctives, and have been doing much research back, as I noted above, my daughter and granddaughter live on legally acknowleged Coast Salish land, not just on unceded land. As such, I have to consider what AWAN says very very seriously, and those that make comments against their statements too. As I need to know the truth, in order to best support my daughter and granddaughter, though knowlege and experienced based awareness, by having all the information available to me, that I can collect, and discern from, that actually has proven veracity, that is also experientally based. This is beyond of course my concern for ALL women and what impacts decriminalized johns, pimps and procurers, could have upon us.

From these perspectives, I have researched what was said back then, and indeed sought proof to support/decry AWAN's position, and what I found has supported their position and statements, as posted and linked to above. Indeed your own words, as I indicated above, support their words, and have further indicated that I must respect the words of AWAN, as that of lived experience, and knowlege of what is occuring, in and on their territory.

There is no reason that I can see to deny, or decry, their words.

...the original article back when this was all first proposed, is as follows:

Quote:
Vancouver Sun
Mon Nov 12 2007
Page: A1 / FRONT
Section: News
Byline: Jeff Lee
Source: Vancouver Sun

A group of Vancouver prostitutes wants to open a "co-op" brothel in time for the Winter Olympics, saying it would help sex-trade workers by providing a safer working environment when the world comes to visit in 2010.

Susan Davis, a working prostitute, said she envisions the creation of as many as five cooperative brothels if the B.C. Coalition of Experiential Communities, which includes men, women and transgendered sex-trade workers, convinces the federal government to permit the first brothel on an experimental basis.

~

Davis said the group is weeks away from incorporating a cooperative corporation and is looking for a possible location in the city's east-side Strathcona area. But she said the group won't open the facility, complete with "quickie rooms" equipped with sinks and a bench, unless it has support from the federal government.

"What we'd like to see is an exemption given to us along the lines of what was given for the Insite safe-injection site," Davis said.

She believes tens of thousands of men who come to Vancouver during the Games will be searching for sex. B.C.'s booming construction economy has already brought thousands of workers, and along with them, prostitutes, she said.

"Just like the workers are coming from all over the world to build the city, sex workers are coming with them," she said.

Sullivan, who said the city needs a new approach to dealing with the problems of prostitution, doesn't object to the idea of a co-op brothel.

But he said he's more focused on helping so-called "survival sex-trade" workers find cures to their addiction.

"I believe we need to keep an open mind," he said. "But I don't believe it would address the needs of the survival sex trade. I don't think a brothel of this kind would even allow women like that into it, because they come with lots of problems."

Opponents of the brothel say it would only perpetuate the idea that prostitution is acceptable, and not solve the abuse heaped on women in an industry most of them don't want to be in.

"It entrenches prostitution as legitimate, and therefore legitimatizes pimps and traffickers," said Daisy Kler, a social worker with Vancouver Rape Relief. "I do not believe the public would agree that this is a good idea, to have some disposable women available for the Olympics." ...

Wed, 2009-11-18 14:41

#73

susan davis susan davis's picture

where does it say olympic brothel?....no where......where do i say only high wage workers will be allowed to access the safe work space, no where.....we have always said the "olympic money was during the construction boom and it was...and its over.....if we had wanted to protect workers being trafficked we missed the boat.......the statements by the mayor and the reporter are the result of the misrepresentatio of our goals by the abolitionist side.

go ahead remind tell me i am misrepresenting my self, call into question my credibility . my reference in the article to 5 coops is the 5 distinct strolls in vancouver and those workers being able to come together and define what they need as a community, 5 distinct communities actually and is not an olympic brothel. its a way to begin to stabilize the safety of people on the street.

but please, take the words of a reporter confused by the amount of information i gave him as gospel.

all of our plans related to the games were based on creating alternative income sources.ie- the cafe, history of sex work museum exhibit, historical walking tour, and art retail space.-read the reports of the development of our coop on our website- www.wccsip.ca nowhere are olympic brothels mentioned. working conditions and safety, definitely mentioned....no where in this chronological record of the development of canada's first sex worker cooperative will you find any reference to the desire to creat an olympic brothl. you will however find reference to alterative income sources during the games.

i have been working on it since then and as stated before have donated $360,000.00 at $20 an hr of my time in kind to these efforts. thankyou for diminishing my commitment to this goal. i have never lost sight of the direction given to me by the cooperative membership.i have applied 2 times to the CDI fund only to be rejeted as "not a priority" in one case and "too ambicious" in the other.where should i find the $1,000,000.00 for this goals remind...?should i pull it out of my ass?turn tricks to earn it...?you seem to have no comprehension of what this will require in effort.

it is a big enough effort to get exiting opportunities funded never mind a safe work space....but now with the in kind donation of an architect and business planner we will have a clearer picture of what it will take.also, once the stupid olympic games are over, we may finally be able to move past this effects of this misrepresentation of our efforts and move forward with our plans.

i like how you think what i am trying to do is so easy it should have been done ages ago and i must be incompetant.i am an unfunded active sex worker trying to stabilize my community.what have you done ? oh that's right.........

Wed, 2009-11-18 14:47

#74

susan davis susan davis's picture

StCFM wrote:

As a former prostitute who is now working on helping women exit the trade (Setting the Captives Free Ministries Inc.), whether they chose to be in it or were trafficked, I have a lot to say about this. Personally, I have been out of the business for 10 years, after having been in it for 17 years. I worked on the high stroll, low stroll, escort and massage. Currently I am finishing my BA (Grad 2010). I have written a paper on domestic trafficking in Canada, which is published and online at www.cncew.ca (The Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women, of which I am also a member). Before I began my BA I was a counselor for sex workers at PEERS (Prostitutes Education Empowerment Resource Society) for two years. From this experience I can affirm that the majority of my clients and the other working women I know do not want to be in the business. For most of us it was a matter of survival or a choice made most without fully knowing the consequences thereof.

A good paradigm for considering the consequences of prostitution can be seen through the First Nation Native people's (Indigenous or Aboriginal) medicine wheel concept. There are four quadrants in the wheel which represent the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical parts of being human. Our whole being is affected by these four components. In the mental area of the wheel are: self-image, communication, assertiveness, family problems, self criticism, and parenting. In the spiritual area: belief in a creator, sacred ceremonies, ethnic values/morals, restorative healing, and forgiveness. In the emotional area: identity/ express feelings, conflicts/anger, self-esteem, relationships, grief/loss, trust, suicidal thoughts, abuse, and family breakdown. Finally, in the physical area are: health, finances, friends/support system, employment, education, legal, addictions, recreation/hobbies, and sex.

When I looked at the medicine wheel I asked myself, how many of these components are affected by selling sex as a means for living? In my experience, all of them, and not in a positive way! Think about it!!!! Selling your body for sex may seem to be a temporary means to an end (survival) but seldom does anyone get in the business and get out quickly. We end up with post traumatic stress from experiencing bad dates. We experience violence from clients, family and society for being a prostitute. Prostitutes are considered the scum of society or simply an object for a man's sexual release. Men who want prostitution legalized want women to be an open commodity and available for their pleasure. They don't ask or care whether she is happy, healthy, or how old she is.

As for harm reduction to the women through legalization, I don't believe it will happen. I have been sexually abused at a massage parlor and an escort service, both supposedly 'safe' and 'controlled' environments for prostitution, and so have others. Legalizing prostitution will NOT reduce the risk to women. It will not make this 'work' safe, nor will it give dignity, self esteem, or create a healthy lifestyle for women!!! I realize that there are several women fighting for legalization of prostitution, but I know that when they have had enough bad dates themselves they too will want out. Please I implore you to contact your politicians and say DO NOT LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION.

i would like to point out that this is not the position of the CNCEW.....while i respect the members can hold whatever opinion they like as is also true in the BCCEC, people shouldn't assume this is the position of the canadian national coalition of experiential women.

http://www.cncew.ca/lawreform.html

Law Reform

Decriminalize sex workers by repealing laws related to communicating, soliciting and keeping a common bawdy house.
Do an in-depth review of law, law enforcement and punitive systemic policies that result in enforcement against women in the sex industry.
Carefully evaluate the experience of other jurisdictions where sex work is wholly or partially legalized and/or decriminalized.
Provide appropriate supports and services for sex workers who are arrested and those who are incarcerated.

Wed, 2009-11-18 15:03

#75

susan davis susan davis's picture

to whom ever took exception my refering to the SIWSAG as the VPD committee in some long gone post to trisha baptie......and called police members of the group.....

for the sake of clarification;

http://vancouver.ca/police/diversity/2009/SISWAG-outline.pdf

Collaborative action group connects Vancouver Police, Sex Industry Workers and

Community Organizations to address the safety concerns of sex workers.

The Sex Industry Worker Safety Action Group (SIWSAG) has been formed to create

informed strategies to reduce violence against male, female and trans‐gendered sex

industry workers. Members of the SIWSAG include representatives of local community

groups, sex industry workers, and other community stakeholders such as

representatives from the exotic dancing community. The community groups

represented include:

§ ASIA/ ORCHID: Asian Society for the Intervention of Aids/Outreach, Research,

Community, Health Initiatives and Development

§ BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS (MAKA Project)

§ BCCEC: BC Coalition of Experiential Communities

§ Boys 'R' Us

§ HUSTLE: Men on the Move

§ PACE: Prostitution, Alternatives, Counseling and Education Society

§ PEERS Vancouver (Prostitutes Empowerment Education Resource Society)

§ Pivot Legal Society

§ SWAN: Supporting Women's Alternatives Network

§ West Coast Cooperative of Sex Industry Professionals

§ WISH (Women's Information Safe Haven) Drop‐in Society

§ VACFSS: Vancouver Aboriginal Child & Family Services Society

§ Vancouver Police Department

The action group has already identified key areas that need to be improved in order to

keep sex workers safe. They include:

§ Incident reporting;

§ Identifying predatory offenders;

§ Facilitating greater success in the prosecution of those who commit violence

against sex industry workers;

§ Training in self‐defence and violence prevention;

§ Direct outreach to the sex industry;

§ Creating educational materials for sex industry workers and VPD recruits;

§ Communication between sex industry workers and the police.

§

"One of the key outcomes of the group thus far has been improving relationships

between individuals and groups who have historically had disconnected, and often

negative, relationships in the past. This group has the potential to effect real, positive

change for some of the most vulnerable workers in Canada."

-Tamara O'Doherty, Chairperson

"Sex industry workers deserve to live as safely as anyone else in Vancouver. They do not

deserve to be constant victims of violence and harm. The Vancouver Police Department

is committed to working with industry and community organizations to keep everyone

safe. We are sending a clear message to those who terrorize and injure sex industry

workers that we will make every effort to send them to jail for as long as possible."

-Inspector John de Haas, VPD Diversity & Aboriginal Policing Section

Wed, 2009-11-18 15:31

#76

Stargazer

I'd like for any of you anti-decrim people to start talking about what you would do RIGHT NOW to make the sex work safer for those who are in it.

I have yet to see anything from your side.

Quote:
Real Women of Canada, a conservative group that arguably reads like the case against feminism, are challenging the lawsuit. Their website article against decriminalization points out Mr. Young (arguing for decriminalization) was previously working to decriminalize marijuana. Oh, and they also claim that the reason he wants prostitution decriminalized is so that drug trafficking will be made easier through brothels. They also claim homosexual bathhouses will be decriminalized along with prostitution. (Tell me; is there something wrong with that statement?) There is a whisper of the sex workers own safety, but not in very practical terms. (They would be safer if they weren’t prostitutes! Thanks a bunch!) If anyone knows the best solution, I am betting it is the sex workers themselves. And judging how the groups opposing it sit on other human andwomen’s rights issues, I would say its progress for women.

http://informedvote.ca/2009/10/13/the-case-for-decriminalization-of-pros...

This is from AWAN:

If we are to help the most vulnerable street prostituted women, of which a significant number are young aboriginal women struggling with problems with addictions, homelessness, and chronic, often life-threatening health problems, what we need are:
1) more detox beds;
2) recovery centres designed to: a) give women "cultural tools" to recover; b) educate women concerning the origins of violence in their lives; and
c) consciousness-raise so women can fight to end prostitution--the "oldest oppression" in the world;
3) comprehensive and compassionate medical services;
4) guaranteed liveable income;
5) job training; and
6) adequate housing for women and their families.

Both sides agree there is a need for this (decriminalizing women). So...when will we hear the voices rallying against all the governments past and present who have helped create this situation? Here we are, sitting here arguing. Where are the solutions? Let's move past this back and forth debate over terms and stop making assumptions about that other people's motives are. Get off our collective asses and get out there and do some advocacy work, some volunteer work...I plan on donating some of my time beginning next month when I'm back downtown again, doing street patrol at the Anishnawbe Health centre.

Anyone else doing any volunteer or advocacy work for FN women or others who need help? (I am interested, not being mean, degrading or assuming nothing).

We cannot keep waiting for a Con government, which sees women as a fringe group, to help us. We have to do it ourselves and lobby the idiots who head the Cons to start moving on women's issues, regardless of which side you're on.

Wed, 2009-11-18 15:33

#77

remind

Susan had you wanted to start a work co-operative, based upon legal work, it would have been a go from the get go....there are no barriers to starting a co-op based upon legal activities. This is common sense awareness and is easily provable by just googling how to start a co-operative organization.

More to indicate the veracity of Jeff Lee, and AWAN.

Quote:
Aboriginal rights lawyer and President of the NWAC Beverly Jacobs stresses that often police lack an understanding of the cycles of abuse that occur within Native communities, and, as a result, do not possess the empathy necessary to view women on the streets as part of the public. As such, they do not feel responsible for the protection of these women. Jacobs has worked with Amnesty International as a lead researcher and consultant on their report “Stolen Sisters: Discrimination and Violence Against Indigenous Women in Canada.”

The controversial BC Coalition of Experiential Communities (BCCEC), the first sex-worker co-operative in Canada, is the brainchild of sex-worker Susan Davis, who has been trying to pressure the government to create legal brothels for the upcoming Winter Olympics in 2010. Despite the decriminalization of sex workers being one of the BCCEC's primary motives, the issue is contentious both among Canada's political elite and among sex-workers themselves. The move had the support of Vancouver’s then-Mayor, Sam Sullivan, and VANOC (the Vancouver Organizing Committee for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games), but has so far been refused by Canadian Justice Minister Rob Nicholson.

Tait finds it difficult to understand sex-workers who support the move, and does not envision the legalization of brothels solving the problem of police brutality and societal marginalization.

“They are [Vancouver is] basing their research on one woman’s point of view for creating [legal] brothels in the DTES [Downtown Eastside]. This woman [Davis] is a prostitute by choice who doesn't have to make a living from the streets. She says that she enjoys what she does. I never met one woman who said that they enjoy being a prostitute, they say that’s just the way things happened. Others are trying to make a living for their family, which includes young mothers who are trying to put food on the table for their babies.”

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/2413

Sex Workers Plan Brothel in 2010 Olympics City

Quote:
VANCOUVER, Canada (WOMENSENEWS)--Susan Davis considers herself one of the lucky ones.

In her 21 years as a sex worker, Davis, 39, has known countless peers who have died of suicide, murder, AIDS or drug overdose in Vancouver's gritty Downtown Eastside.

She herself has experienced four heart attacks from smoking crack cocaine and survived several assaults by violent clients while working on the streets.

"I'm a one-percenter," Davis said, referring to the notion that the other 99 percent fail to survive this impoverished, drug-infested neighborhood. "It's nuts down here."

Now, Davis and other local sex workers have banded together to establish Canada's first cooperative brothel in an attempt to offer women a safe place to work.

The group, formed by a sex workers' alliance based here, called the British Columbia Coalition of Experiential Women, will incorporate next month and is already setting the groundwork to open the co-op brothel.

....there is much more evidence, indicating what your initial co-operative plans were, that I cannot even be bothered to post here, so please I am asking you stop with the disparaging of AWAN...it does everyone a disservice, including rabble/babble.

Let's start at a place where I believe we can all gather...

as there is one thing I believe that everyone agrees with, and that is the realization something has to happen to assist those most at risk, prior to February 2010.

And that does not mean protecting men who are looking for sex tourism...or those looking now for disposable ejaculations

I would say it means at the very start, instrumenting guaranteed income, starting immediately, for those who cannot qualify for the reasons I noted way above in another post...who have been forced into prostitution, as Beverly Jacobs also notes.

Wed, 2009-11-18 15:44

#78

remind

Yes, I see we are the same conciliation path here Stargazer, and indeed I did mention long ago now what I believed the first step was here in BC...and mentioned it again above, to which jmartin responded, and again just moments ago in response to susan's post.

FN women are forced into it, across the province because they have no access to any other income sources....Gordon Campbell took that away from them in 2002.

They are my primary consideration here, not those who have chosen "sex work". They actually have choices, like susan does.....to do other, or get support from others in their family.

Wed, 2009-11-18 15:52

#79

remind

susan davis wrote:
StCFM wrote:
As a former prostitute who is now working on helping women exit the trade (Setting the Captives Free Ministries Inc.), whether they chose to be in it or were trafficked, I have a lot to say about this... I have written a paper on domestic trafficking in Canada, which is published and online at www.cncew.ca (The Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women, of which I am also a member). Please I implore you to contact your politicians and say DO NOT LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION.

i would like to point out that this is not the position of the CNCEW.....while i respect the members can hold whatever opinion they like as is also true in the BCCEC, people shouldn't assume this is the position of the canadian national coalition of experiential women.

Law Reform

Decriminalize sex workers by repealing laws related to communicating, soliciting and keeping a common bawdy house.

Do an in-depth review of law, law enforcement and punitive systemic policies that result in enforcement against women in the sex industry.

Carefully evaluate the experience of other jurisdictions where sex work is wholly or partially legalized and/or decriminalized.

Provide appropriate supports and services for sex workers who are arrested and those who are incarcerated.

Do not see her comments as anything different than what CNCEW states.

Wed, 2009-11-18 16:57

#80

ennir

remind wrote:

Do you feel, that we should feel for those "well paid" sex workers who may not be able to "cope" with working along side those First Nations women, who have been so marginalized and exploited that they are forced in prostitution services for 3.00 per john? Personally, I feel for the First Nations women...who have been forced into prostitution, and not so much for those who choose it. Though I am willing to be persuaded that I should feel for those who choose it too...

.......

Reading your posts I can find no evidence of respect let alone that you may be persuaded, in fact what I read is contempt and deliberate baiting. I wonder if you have ever been misquoted in the newspaper, I have and it happens, it happens a lot.

I don't expect that women who choose sex work really care whether or not you feel for them, I think they would much prefer you to simply refrain from imposing your values on them, I know that is the way I feel.

And I do think abortion is a good example, in both cases it is one group trying to control what another group does with their bodies.

Wed, 2009-11-18 18:05

#81

remind

ennir wrote:
I wonder if you have ever been misquoted in the newspaper, I have and it happens, it happens a lot.

Have you been misquoted on the same things in about 7 different interviews by differing peoples and media sources? Or by a Mayor?

Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis?

Quote:
I don't expect that women who choose sex work really care whether or not you feel for them,

I agree, nor would I expect them to, any more than I expect them to feel for my plight...

Quote:
I think they would much prefer you to simply refrain from imposing your values on them, I know that is the way I feel.

Not trying to impose any values on anyone, and I challenge you to provide a quote of where I did so. Or where I even spoke of "values" in the first place in respect to prostitutes, or sex workers...

Again I repeat, my focus is on the safety of the women who can least protect themselves, and upon the men, who are johns, pimps and procurers, who would exploit women's plights...

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:06

#82

susan davis susan davis's picture

hey remind, where does it say olympic brothel....?in anything you are posting....?no where...but i do appreciate your continued attempts to misrepresent our activities.

by the way, once again, prostitution is LEGAL in canada...so where ae our rights?and why don't you support coop work spaces...it is after all a legal occupation in canada.

her comments are abolitionist, not in support of decrim...you really do have selective hearing and memories.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:24

#83

susan davis susan davis's picture

remind wrote:

We are in the midst of an environmental castrophe, and economic meltdown, violence against women is increasing, but yet men still want to be able to have unregulated ejaculation responses whenever and wherever they want, and they want to be able to make money off of their wanting to do that too...

by the way,here s where you say unregulated ejaculation responses and name sex workers as profiteers......
i like that you don't believe me, it makes me feel good. i love to have my work and the ideas of my community dragged throught the mud.
if you can't talk about our cooperative without misrepresenting our plans, i respectfully request you refrain from comment. also, if you have some alternatie plan...like your suggested government regulated access to our vaginaa institutions, why not post them here?so we can all have fun misrepresenting your ideas as well.
the fact that mayor sullivan or indeed anyone else for that matter didnot read the living in community report goes to show just how far abolitionists took the misrepresentation of our ideas and goals. and i quote
www.livingincommuntiy.ca
As well, residents and businesspeople continue to be
affected by the nuisance, mess and public disorder
street-based sex work creates, and often feel unsafe in
their own neighbourhoods. The safety of young people
is compromised by recruitment, children are endangered
where they live and play, and businesses find it difficult
to attract employees and customers. The upcoming
2010 Olympic Winter Games may only heighten the
negative impacts on the street-based sex industry due to
increased policing and military presence. Unfortunately,
these issues have existed for many years in Vancouver
neighbourhoods.
Action 21: Support the call from sex workers for
the development and implementation of a multistakeholder
cooperative to provide safe indoor
workspaces, a code of conduct, education, and
training for the most vulnerable sex workers.Lead organizations:
Experiential Women/Communities, with support from
community and government organizations, including the
Vancity Community Foundation, the Vancouver
Agreement, and the Vancouver Police Department.

A safe place to work is needed immediately for the most
vulnerable survival sex worker populations, who continue
to work in isolated, dark and dangerous locations.
Supporting sex workers to transition to less harmful
conditions and non-exploitative environments, particularly
from on-street to off-street locations, will reduce harm
to them, increase their human rights, and keep neighbourhoods
cleaner and safer.
The British Columbia Coalition of Experiential Women
and Communities (BCCEW/C) is a consortium of sex
worker activists who work to eliminate the oppressive
systems and forces that create harm for individuals in the
sex industry. BCCEW/C has been working in partnership
with community organizations and sex workers themselves
to explore the creation of Vancouver's first sex
worker cooperative: a massage parlour. Health and safety
guidelines and a code of conduct for workers and for
operating the establishment would help to ensure there
would be no exploitation, safety would be maximized,
and that the business was run in a way that was supportive
of the health and safety of the entire community.
and what was the year of this report you ask.....?spring 2007.....same time as the real amping up of the anti olympic brothel campaign. in spite of attending the release of this report and hearing me speak on the coop, these groups choose to misrepresent ur actions just as remind is doing now.
we never asked for olympic brothels and that is a fact. the only reason i keep answering these posts is so people do not get the wrong idea about our intentions for this action. it saddens me alot to have to defend our goals as if they were not designed by sex workers for sex workers and in the face of such total disregard for the potential of these actions to really help people.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:26

#84

susan davis susan davis's picture

i also did not see 7 different articles....you sure like to exaggerate....

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:36

#85

Michelle

Susan, I can see you're frustrated, but could you please not make personal comments like "you sure like to exaggerate" and "you really do have selective memories and hearing"? I think you can get your point across without it. Thanks!

And remind, that goes for you too - comments like, "Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis" is insulting because it implies that people should disbelieve Susan.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:42

#86

susan davis susan davis's picture

here here,slumber jack!

ok michelle

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:44

#87

Slumberjack

Power to the workers!

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:50

#88

susan davis susan davis's picture

http://www.wccsip.ca/doc/developingCapacityForChange.pdf

project report done in february 2007- project ingoing throughout 2006-

A harm reduction approach reconciles the extreme view points expressed in Abolitionism- the

elimination of sex work and sex workers and the Sex Worker Rights movement-the

acknowledgement of sex work as work. A cooperative run by sex workers will address the

harms within the sex industry, some of which are prohibited under section 212 of the Canadian

Criminal Code. A cooperative will ensure that although involvement in the sex industry may

not be a "free" choice for all, the context and environments in which sex work takes place can

be safe, sex worker directed and free from harm.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:52

#89

susan davis susan davis's picture

a sexworker cooperative will ensure;

Sex workers as a community can self-determine;

Sex worker experience "sex work" as defined above;

Sex workers manage and control their own working environment;

Training and support with health and safety are provided through community

partners;

There is support for workers to transition out of sex work if desired;

There is assurance that recruitment, coercion, extortion, violence and youth will not

be involved in the industry;

Marketing strategies reflect collective agreements among workers;

Management of existing establishment be made accountable to workers though a

complaints process and sex worker influence over municipal licensing;

Sex workers and customers have a place to access and exchange information;

The destination of funds/profits generated will be under the control and stewardship

of a board of directors comprised entirely of coop members. Revenue can be

directed to a wide range of supports, some include a health benefits package for

sex workers, coop improvements, security and expansion, a scholarship fund for

sex workers, anti-violence and community education strategies, contributions to

selected community initiatives or investments.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:55

#90

susan davis susan davis's picture

project ongoing suring 2007 report written and submitted 2008;

http://www.wccsip.ca/doc/leadingTheWay.pdf

Second Project: Leading the Way- Strategic Planning Toward Sex Worker Cooperative

Development

This current project engaged with sex workers in rural communities and assessed on and off-street

working conditions in these unique environments to expand our collective experience of off street

working conditions in British Columbia. Also, Vancouver sex workers were mobilized to become

the Cooperative Development Team and establish a Terms of Reference to guide our work,

manage decision-making and ensure that activities hold true to our project goals. We engaged

directly with sex workers and with identified community stakeholders, legal experts and

professionals in the Harm Reduction movement to enhance the capacity of the Development team

to:

learn from .best practices. in harm reduction;
develop a strategic/action plan (inclusive of activities related to business plan development, market research, incorporation, federal exemptions, zoning etc.);
use the strategic plan as a tool to garner further community support for a sex worker cooperative business.

This project is widely supported and reflects the diversity of sex working communities as it includes

women, men and trans-individuals as well as those from different .classes. and varying capacities

and abilities. More specifically, sex workers engaged are multi-literate and culturally diverse. First

Nations, Asian, Caucasian, Black workers and those of mixed race are currently invested.

Wed, 2009-11-18 19:59

#91

susan davis susan davis's picture

where in any of our reports does it say olympic brothel......?no where.......but i guess its too much trouble to expect you to actually read what was written, rather to take it on a third parties interpretation and misreresentation of the true intentions of this action.

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:27

#92

remind

Michelle wrote:
And remind, that goes for you too - comments like, "Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis" is insulting because it implies that people should disbelieve Susan.

are you implying that people should disbelieve AWAN then, by the same token? I do not think so, and it was not the case with me either...

it was a clear question as to why she would disbelieve AWAN and believe Susan Davis, as I was looking for evidence to support susan's contentions, as I have found plenty to disprove it..

... am very upset about the disparaging remarks against AWAN and am taking it pretty much as a racial bias, given the amount of infomation on the web that indeed shows Susan's plans were for an olympic co-op brothel, so much so, it has gone well beyond plausible denial.

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:38

#93

susan davis susan davis's picture

you suck remind.

believe who you want, i could care less what some non sex working abolitionist woman thinks.carry on you crazy diamond.you posted 2 links that went no where.....

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:42

#94

susan davis susan davis's picture

and the women's sphere wordpress does not have me saying olympic brothels.....some one else says it...the same groups perpetuating the misrepresentation of our plans.

my comments are all related to the benefits of a safe work space for street entrenched sex workers, other wise known as the coop brothel.

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:45

#95

susan davis susan davis's picture

the woman in the ottawa citizen article never even spoke to me. she states i am quoted as saying...she never even bothered to contect us before jumping on board the misrepresentation train.she based her article on the origional misquote in the vancouver sun....

nice proof of my dishonesty

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:53

#96

susan davis susan davis's picture

the genderbrg link is to a story about the salvation army's offensive campaign and our "lies are sexy" response.

how is it allowed on babble for a person post multiple links claiming they support proof of my dishonesty some of which have absolutley nothing to do with the coop brothel project and some of which lead to pages where i am threatened with violence. is this a misrepresentation?

all of these articles are based on the mis quote in the origional vancouver sun article. i never spoke to any of them except the vancouver sun reporter. i never said olympic brothel then or now.

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:55

#97

susan davis susan davis's picture

remind wrote:

Michelle wrote:
And remind, that goes for you too - comments like, "Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis" is insulting because it implies that people should disbelieve Susan.

are you implying that people should disbelieve AWAN then, by the same token? I do not think so, and it was not the case with me either...

it was a clear question as to why she would disbelieve AWAN and believe Susan Davis, as I was looking for evidence to support susan's contentions, as I have found plenty to disprove it..

... am very upset about the disparaging remarks against AWAN and am taking it pretty much as a racial bias, given the amount of infomation on the web that indeed shows Susan's plans were for an olympic co-op brothel, so much so, it has gone well beyond plausible denial.

and i am a racist....nice!

Wed, 2009-11-18 20:58

#98

remind

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=bdb0...

http://genderberg.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4166

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=bf1a23dd-411b-4d2...

http://womensphere.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/legal-brothel-no-solution-to...

http://mostlywater.org/sex_workers_plan_brothel_in_2010_olympics_cit

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tories-nix-2010-olympics-sex-trade-co-opy

Oops....pardon me I should have said 8, including the 2, I gave above, plus, AWAN's account and Vancouver Rape Relief's account, and Mayor Sam Sullivan's account, plus many more that I could list that are named in the articles.

Also, found an article in the Prince Albert paper on it and another one too, but I am sure that there is more than enough info to show your were not misquoted, nor misunderstood, nor misrepresented, etc...

And note the last link is to an article about Harper's government saying "NO" in 2008 to the experimental plan you put forth....

susan davis wrote:
here s where you say unregulated ejaculation responses and name sex workers as profiteers....

Out of context, as was meant inconjunction with the stated desire to have no regulations as a job industry, and my clear outlinning that such could not be and it would have to be regulated, even though your lobby keeps saying "no regulations".

... did not name sex workers as profiteers, said that men wanted to profit off of women's exploitation too, besides their desire to have no regulations.. I thought that was pretty clearly worded, but perhaps not...

will state it again:

We have seen here at babble statements that there should/could/would be no regulations, and this court challenge is about john's, pimps and procurers/bawdy house operators, who are for the most part men, who also want to benefit from women's exploitation, besides having no regulations upon them and their commodity consumers.

ETD to check llinks, had too many windows opened and to remove a link that did have comments disparaging of susan...

Wed, 2009-11-18 22:15

#99

remind

Never once said you were racist, said I was taking it as such....because it is past the point of even being tolerable as a point thrown up for consideration

.... am going to believe AWAN, lawyer Beverly Jacobs, Vancouver Rape Relief, former Mayor Sullivan, Jeff Lee, Libby Davies, Wency Leung, Janine Benedet, and the host of others spoken to about this project of yours...I have the full original article with Jeff Lee,

linked to Wency Leung's from women'senews, interview with you above, in post #76, second link, which was in October, a month before your interview with Jeff Lee, complete with a picture of you taken by Leung...

again part of the Sun article is:

Quote:
Coalition pushes for legal brothel; Ottawa's support sought for safe, prostitute-run facility that would cater to Olympic visitors

Vancouver Sun
Mon Nov 12 2007
Page: A1 / FRONT
Section: News
Byline: Jeff Lee
Source: Vancouver Sun

A group of Vancouver prostitutes wants to open a "co-op" brothel in time for the Winter Olympics, saying it would help sex-trade workers by providing a safer working environment when the world comes to visit in 2010.

Susan Davis, a working prostitute, said she envisions the creation of as many as five cooperative brothels if the B.C. Coalition of Experiential Communities, which includes men, women and transgendered sex-trade workers, convinces the federal government to permit the first brothel on an experimental basis.

The group has support from some politicians, including Vancouver East MP Libby Davies and Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan, who believe a brothel owned and run by sex-trade workers would help reduce violence against them.

Davis said the group is weeks away from incorporating a cooperative corporation and is looking for a possible location in the city's east-side Strathcona area. But she said the group won't open the facility, complete with "quickie rooms" equipped with sinks and a bench, unless it has support from the federal government.

"What we'd like to see is an exemption given to us along the lines of what was given for the Insite safe-injection site," Davis said.

She believes tens of thousands of men who come to Vancouver during the Games will be searching for sex. B.C.'s booming construction economy has already brought thousands of workers, and along with them, prostitutes, she said.

"Just like the workers are coming from all over the world to build the city, sex workers are coming with them," she said.

Sullivan, who said the city needs a new approach to dealing with the problems of prostitution, doesn't object to the idea of a co-op brothel.

But he said he's more focused on helping so-called "survival sex-trade" workers find cures to their addiction.

"I believe we need to keep an open mind," he said. "But I don't believe it would address the needs of the survival sex trade. I don't think a brothel of this kind would even allow women like that into it, because they come with lots of problems."

Opponents of the brothel say it would only perpetuate the idea that prostitution is acceptable, and not solve the abuse heaped on women in an industry most of them don't want to be in.

"It entrenches prostitution as legitimate, and therefore legitimatizes pimps and traffickers," said Daisy Kler, a social worker with Vancouver Rape Relief. "I do not believe the public would agree that this is a good idea, to have some disposable women available for the Olympics."

Last week, Calgary-based The Future Group released a report warning that Vancouver's Olympics will be a target of human traffickers wanting to exploit prostitution.

The report, titled Faster, Higher, Stronger: Preventing Human Trafficking at the 2010 Olympics, said the federal and provincial governments need to deter traffickers from using the Games to profit from human misery.

Janine Benedet, an associate professor of law at the University of B.C., said the city already has hundreds of brothels. The only difference is that they operate illegally. Bringing in one for the Olympics, she said, is wrong.

"To the question, 'Is society ready for this?' my answer is, 'I hope not,'" said Benedet, who lectures on sexual violence. "The notion that this is somehow different or better than any of the other brothels out there is simply false."

Studies show more than 90 per cent of women in the sex trade are not there by choice, but rather because of trafficking, drug addiction and societal problems such as incest. Benedet said the majority of Vancouver's prostitutes are native women, and many of them suffer from deep psychological trauma.

Davis said a brothel run as a cooperative would not turn away prostitutes looking for a safe and clean place to do their business....she said. ..

ETA: If anyone wants the full copy, plus a note from JL on the veracity of what he wrote, pm me and I will send it to you

...will not say anymore on this other than again ask that defaming AWAN, stops.

let's move along to discuss perhaps where we should be going with this, and personally I am taking AWAN's viewpoints and advice...

Wed, 2009-11-18 22:30

#100

susan davis susan davis's picture

remind wrote:

Susan had you wanted to start a work co-operative, based upon legal work, it would have been a go from the get go....there are no barriers to starting a co-op based upon legal activities. This is common sense awareness and is easily provable by just googling how to start a co-operative organization.

um, remind we DID INCORPORATE THE COOP......or did you miss that some how......or misrepresent i should say......

what about the funding barrier? you know the 1 million dollars we need....?is that not a barrier...?

Wed, 2009-11-18 22:46

#101

susan davis susan davis's picture

the with leather link is awesome!!people threaten to kill me and defacate on my corpse!!!thank you for sharing that wonderful link remind

http://withleather.uproxx.com/2007/11/legal-brothels-at-vancouver-olympics

here is the link since remind saw fit to edit it out i am sure in an attempt to make me look like i misrepresented her.

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