counterproductivity of driver culture

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Sat, 2010-09-11 03:11

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

counterproductivity of driver culture

"The main notion of Ivan Illich is the concept of counterproductivity: when institutions of modern industrial impede their purported aims. For example, Ivan Illich calculated that, in America in the 70's, if you add the time spent to work to earn the money to buy a car, the time spent in the car (including traffic jam), the time spent in the health care industry because of a car crash, the time spent in the oil industry to fuel cars ...etc., and you divide that by the number of kilometres traveled per year, you obtain the following calculation : 1600 hours per year per American divided by 10000 km per year per person equals 6 km per hour. So the real speed of a car would be about 3.7 miles per hour."

With cyclist getting bumped all around me this summer(and even one pedestrian who was advised to wear a helmet) I'd be curious what the numbers look like in todays terms. Anyone know? Should time spent in health care due to the sedentary lifestyle car driving promotes also be factored in?

Sun, 2010-09-12 13:14

Brian White

Good post. And timely. I got a new friend on facebook yesterday and he has 2 links about helmets being probably a mistake.

http://www.richmond-news.com/health/Worried+fought+helmets/3449978/story...

and

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/heady-freedom-as-judge-agrees-helmet-laws-are-...

(Helmets give you a different type of head trauma)

Having to put on a helmet discourages me. Plus, my head gets much hotter, and I cannot easily hear the approaching traffic from behind.

What do some of our turban wearing minorities do? Or anyone with big hair? Lets repeal the stupid law.

I did not even know that it was bc only. Thanks for posting. Incidently, the second link says that helmets might help car drivers a lot MORE than they do cyclists. (If car drivers had to wear them). So why not helmets for the front seat in cars? MANDITORY.

Brian

Sun, 2010-09-12 14:38

Sineed

Wrong wrong wrong Brian.

http://www.healthunit.org/injury/summer/bikehel.htm

As the link says, bike helmets reduce the risk of serious head injury by 85%.

From a study at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto:

Quote:

The study looked at data on the 9,650 Canadian children (five to 19 years of age) hospitalized for bicycle-related injuries from 1994 to 1998. The results indicate that the bicycle-related head injury rate declined significantly (45 per cent reduction) in provinces where legislation had been adopted compared to provinces and territories that did not adopt legislation (27 per cent reduction).

"It was already known that bicycle helmet legislation is a successful strategy for the adoption of helmets, but the effect on the rates of head injuries was unknown. This research shows that helmet legislation is an effective tool in the prevention of childhood bicycle-related head injuries," said Alison Macpherson, the study's lead author, a U of T graduate student and a research fellow in HSC's Department of Paediatric Medicine.

Sun, 2010-09-12 15:57

Brian White

"Wrong wrong wrong Brian".

Of course it is declining.

The kids are being put off cycling and doing less of it!

Instead, they are sitting on their arses, munching down diabetes foods and dieing early from choked arteries.

But mummy feels good because she is saving their brains. and daddy feels good for being bossy and making them put on their helmets.

By the way, I am fine with really young kids having to wear helmets when they are learning. Thats when most of the accidents occur.

But once you have learned, crashes are extremely rare. Why impose sight and hearing disabilities and heat distress on people?

Are you going to wear a helmet next time you drive?

Didn't think so. It is proved to save drivers.

So you should. (But you don't).

Guess you are irresponsible. You don't have to wear a helmet in germany or france or holland or denmark or ireland. Where people cycle thousands of times more than they do here.

And how does an adult lady keep her hair decent in a helmet before she gets to work on her bike? Does it mean an extra half hour in the washroom? Thats a serious question.

We are imposing stupid restrictions on people for stupid reasons.

Sun, 2010-09-12 17:04

Merowe

I liked the first post, but the drift is interesting too. I respond to Brian's point about the miseries of wearing a helmet - a practice I gave up years ago - because earlier today I remember looking at a party of cyclists dressed for an afternoon's outing and thinking how sweatily uncomfortable they looked under their helmets. As I breezed past in my light black cotton cap. There was just no getting around how bulgingly ridiculous these plastic head swellings made them appear, no amount of posing behind groovy shades or business with water bottles was going to change this. Then I reminded myself they were there to protect your head and I resolved, once again, to just be alert and not have any accidents. I realize this passes for cowboy behavior in some quarters but its the norm here; there are a lot of cyclists with helmets, particularly kids but they are not the majority.

Sun, 2010-09-12 18:21

Brian White

Sorry for the drift. When I rented and worked in factories I used to try to calculate my hourly wage from the time I left home to the time I returned. (minus lunch break). That provided stimulus to rent within 15 minute walk from work. And that made life a lot more enjoyable.

But that was in england and ireland where you can easily rent week to week. (And without having to haul around beds and couches).

We have some crazy cultural inconveniences here! I am told that in Quebec there is an annual moving day where hundreds of thousands of people move! Everyone moving on the first of the month is stupid enough, thanks. It means too many garage sales at one time, moving companies have to have huge overcapacity and huge temporary labour needs, not to mention the crazy amount of stress it creates.

How did that all start? And why is the first of the month sacred for moving?

Sun, 2010-09-12 18:25

milo204

While i see the logic behind wearing a helmet, i think it would make more sense to wear wrist protection/leg protection. That's the spot that takes a beating if you fall off your bike, at least in my experience.

Then again, if you smack your noggin on the concrete at high speed, i would certainly feel pretty dumb for not wearing one. I think it's more the "what if" factor than anything else. Your very exposed on a bike, especially in traffic, and you never know what could happen.

Sun, 2010-09-12 22:03

My Cat Knows Better My Cat Knows Better's picture

Merowe wrote:

... I realize this passes for cowboy behavior in some quarters but its the norm here; there are a lot of cyclists with helmets, particularly kids but they are not the majority.

We live in a culture that prizes the freedom to practice any form of natural selection that we wish...

Sun, 2010-09-12 22:34

hobyirwin

Brian White

Niether source you quote offers any evidence against helmet safety, they are only opinion pieces.

Long term injury studies, as Sineed suggests, offer facts not opinions.

My Grandmother hated seat belts. As a young girl she was tossed from a car in an accident while the driver, who stayed with in the car, was seriously injured. In the Yukon this year there has been a steady stream of people ejected from vehicles suffer death and sever injuries. Wear the belts. The chances of a vehicle rolling on you and hurting you are far greater than any injury a belt is going to cause you.

With logic like you present I'm surpised you're not advocating construction sites ban hard hats. They are hot, restrict your vision and your hearing. I'm not going to stop wearing mine.

On a personal note. I've had many accidents while riding both motorcycles and bikes. I've broken several helmets and put myself in the hospital 3 times. I've always wore a helmet and and never had a head injury. I wouldn't ride anything without one on. Also, bicycle helmets are not that hot. , if it is you bought the wrong one.

Sun, 2010-09-12 22:34

#10

hobyirwin

Brian White

Niether source you quote offers any evidence against helmet safety, they are only opinion pieces.

Long term injury studies, as Sineed suggests, offer facts not opinions.

With logic like you present I'm surpised you're not advocating construction sites ban hard hats. They are hot, restrict your vision and your hearing. I'm not going to stop wearing mine.

Mon, 2010-09-13 00:02

#11

Brian White

The french commute on their bikes lots, so do the germans, so do the dutch and danish.

The Canadians just do not seem to be able to manage commuting.

Bikes seem to be used here mostly as an attachment on the back of cars at the weekend and for getting injured in the hills.

I had one bad fall from a bike, seems the evidence is that helmets make you take stupid risks.

And the judge in Australia read the evidence and concluded that the head injuries from non lethal helmeted bike accidents can be very serious.

Better dead than veg, perhaps? I am a grown adult. I don't smoke dope, I hardly ever drink. If I had a young kid I would get them to wear a helmet and training wheels as they trained.

I do not quote evidence because it can be turned any way you please. Did you hear about the research where a guy rode (I think in england) with and without a helmet? He had some sort of sensor that showed that when he wore a helmet, the cars passed that little bit closer to him. Seems the helmet made the drivers that little bit more secure! That really matters. "O well, if I hit him, his head will not split open, eh?"

Do you know how freaked out it makes you when a car brushes against your bike? Or on a windy day when they come barreling past and the "suck" pulls you out a foot or so into their lane? No wonder people do not ride bikes on the road here. The car drivers are psycos who have never ridden a bike. So they have no idea what trouble they are causing.

How do you put that into your data bank?

Seems to me that north americans are easily manipulated. Compare soccer, hurling and rugby to american and canadian football, and lacrosse.

Whats with all the gear?

Mon, 2010-09-13 01:00

#12

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

regardless of the experiment showing differences in motorist behaviour around cyclist based on gender and helmet wearing I think context needs to be added to the equation. I feel the cycling conditions are such where I live that it's a pretty good idea to wear a helmet. I've also done long distance rides on hot and humid ontario summer days into the country where speed are higher and the drivers are not expecting cyclists. In that context I thought it was a very good idea to wear a helmet and I just got used to having something on my head all day; it wasn't that big a deal. If I was cycling in the netherlands I might not worry about it so much.

What is a big deal is the conditions for cycling and the respect given to the obviously ridiculous forms of transport within the design of our living centers. Lets focus our attention on increasing the livability of cities and towns and try to reduce those counterproductive habits that are taken for granted in the north american lifestyle and thereby decrease the relevance of wearing a bike helmet. As far as increasing the number of cyclists on the road goes, mandatory helmet laws seem to be problematic for some groups.

Mon, 2010-09-13 13:43

#13

bagkitty

I hope tossing this article into the mix is not viewed as causing drift. While I particularly enjoyed the bit on "bike salmon", my real motivation for tossing it in is the beautiful way it describes the differing expectations of motorists, cyclists and pedestrians.

Sun, 2010-09-26 11:53

#14

Brian White

"The zen warrior who shatters traffic jams ahead of him!"

Brilliant video about bringing on a better "driver culture"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGFqfTCL2fs

I know a tiny bit about reynolds numbers and the transition from smooth to turbulent flow. Close to the transition point, you can get more fluid through a pipe at a slower speed than if you up the pressure and try to force it!

Traffic is a little bit different because of the human mind and because the fluid particles (the cars) are individually powered (so you get the turbulence even more concentrated) but not that much different.

Sun, 2010-09-26 13:14

#15

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Brian White wrote:

The french commute on their bikes lots, so do the germans, so do the dutch and danish.

Funny note on this - it never reaches -40 C in those locations... Might be part of the problem.

Personally, even -15 is a deal-breaker for me.

Oh, and the helmet thing? My children's godfather bikes everywhere in the warmer months. Last month he misjudged a stop sign, swerved to avoid a car and went down. Head hit the curb. He was wearing a helmet and got pretty banged up. Without the helmet, he would have had a serious concussion.

The helmet isn't that inconvenient, and it does prevent injury.

Sun, 2010-09-26 14:10

#16

Brian White

You are presuming a whole lot. Nobody is asking people to commute in -15 (which does happen in germany and holland at times), I have been there. And I did have to bike in ireland after blizards with the ice built up high on the road surface. (Very few cars in those conditions) I wear a helmet now too. Because it is the law. Did you get the thing about the different type of brain injurys that you get from wearing a helmet.

And also about your hearing, field of vision and movement being impared by wearing a helmet? And overheating of the head? And even being more reckless if you are wearing a helmet? And about car drivers going closer to helmeted people than those who do not wear them? These are all true and all tend to cause more accidents. So the point of a piece of safety equipment which REDUCES safety in all those ways is certainly debateable.

Perhaps one or several of those factors helped cause the accident? Nobody will ever know, not me not you and not the godfather.

Misjudging a stop sign might be an equipment failing too. Steel wheels work poorly with the breaks in the rain. Alloy wheels are better because the break rubber grips better to them in rain. But if you have to fork out for the helmet too, it reduces your buget for the OTHER parts of the bike. The game is not so simple as you pretend it to be.

Timebandit wrote:

Brian White wrote:

The french commute on their bikes lots, so do the germans, so do the dutch and danish.

Funny note on this - it never reaches -40 C in those locations... Might be part of the problem.

Personally, even -15 is a deal-breaker for me.

Oh, and the helmet thing? My children's godfather bikes everywhere in the warmer months. Last month he misjudged a stop sign, swerved to avoid a car and went down. Head hit the curb. He was wearing a helmet and got pretty banged up. Without the helmet, he would have had a serious concussion.

The helmet isn't that inconvenient, and it does prevent injury.

Sun, 2010-09-26 16:50

#17

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Brian, if your helmet covers your ears, it does not fit or was not meant to be used on a bicycle. Nor should it obscure your vision. They tend to have mesh and venting, so they do not overheat your head. These are bullshit arguments - it makes me wonder if you're using a motorcycle helmet. And by your logic, motorcycle helmets must be incredibly dangerous as they obscure much more vision and hearing than any bike helmet on the market. Take that a step further - given the added speed of a motorcycle, we should ban them and motorized scooters outright, immediately.

My friend's accident? Um, what part of fall down on your head on concrete is mysterious to you? He didn't have inadequate brakes, there was no equipment failure, the weather conditions were sunny and calm, he just didn't think there was anyone coming and didn't come to a full stop. A banal error in judgement made by cyclists with or without helmets all the time.

I also think your argument about "different types of brain injury from helmets" is also a piece of unadulterated bullshit. I used to teach safety belt awareness in schools in the early '90s - if I had a nickel for every time I heard "But my dad/grampa/gramma/auntie/etc said that a seatbelt can kill you..." I'd be rich. I look at your argument in exaclty the same light.

ETA: Problems with helmets that do not fit properly, however, I will buy. It's sometimes difficult to make sure you've sized it right. I had to buy a youth size large helmet because adult ones are too big and are far too one-size-fits-all. There are improvements to be made in that area for sure.

Sun, 2010-09-26 20:58

#18

Brian White

"These are bullshit arguments" is just plain ignorant.

Lets face the fact. Godfather was either a bad cyclist or had his view obstructed by something or thought his helmet would save him from an accident. His head could have been overheated. Maybe next time he will buy a bigger cushier helmet and look like humpty dumpty. Helmets are brutal in a cross wind, by the way. And gusty cross winds are just the type of thing that drivers have no clue about but which are extremely dangerous for cyclists.

But hey, you wouldn't know the difference, would you?

And 'boo hoo, it gets cold here sometimes, so cycling is tough" doesn't mean shit.

Check the graph above. I cycled in Holland for about a year in the 1990s.

No helmet required.

Now while you are checking the graph, give a reason for that trend.

If (as many people have said) manditory helmets make them cycle less, then helmets are actually causing less cycling and MORE deaths per km traveled. All we need is a good statistician and we can even give an estimate of how many extra deaths per km helmets are causing.

You havn't got a clue. Have you ever lived anywhere else?

Ever HAVE to walk or cycle to work or school?

You want cyclist safety?

Then get every driver to do an hour of cycling in a busy town as part of their licensing requirements.

It might scare the living shit out of lots of them.

And maybe one or two per year will get killed before they get their license.

But it might get some of them to change their tunes and make the roads safer.

Mon, 2010-09-27 10:52

#19

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Dude, I live in Saskatchewan. Crosswinds? Yeah, we've got 'em.

The idea that wearing a vented helmet overheats your head is just plain silly. Why do we recommend people wear hats on hot sunny days to prevent sunstroke? By your logic, hat-wearers would be dropping like flies. And yet, wearing a hat works. My bicycle helmet is no hotter than the straw hat I wear when I walk.

At the risk of getting into a defensive pissing match with you, yes, I have walked and cycled to work or school over a long period of time, sometimes over several miles. Given a choice and the time to do so, I prefer walking to buses. I am intimately acquainted with wind chill factors and how to dress for them (and if you think cold doesn't mean shit, you haven't lived out here). That said, however, I wouldn't bike in extremely cold weather for several reasons, one being ice on the roads. I do know people who bike year-round but they are rare, brave souls and expecting the average person to do that out here is just plain daft.

Now, it's true I've always lived in Canada, but I've spent a lot of time traveling - I've spent time in Europe and in Asia where biking is more common. So what? It has little bearing on my objections.

Mon, 2010-09-27 19:02

#20

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Just spent the weekend at a conference for community bike shops in montreal. Was told a person waiting for a bus who I asked for directions that I should wear a helmet ....someone was killed last week(I did have a helmet but it got stolen earlier in the summer and I have not replaced it. Don't the nstructions often recomend replacting your helmet every couple of years anyway?). Also met a women from victoria who was surprised about the people not wearing helmets thing. Thing about victoria is that it's cool. I've worn helmets in ontario in roads with no shade when it can easily hit 35 degrees. You sweat like crazy, I deal with it, I do, however, have a pretty high tolerance for temperatures(I cycled into the hills in thailand one day and though it was hot didn't think much about it till I got back into town saw the temprature was 48 with 100% humidity). There probably is something to the idea that overheated cyclist may make decisions that are less wise/safe. Bike trails with some amount of tree shade are always welcome.. and sometimes do plan my trip by taking into account which route has more shade.

I got to cycle around a large portion of montreal and just hoped on a bixi at mount royal and made my way down to the train station in rush hour traffic. There were a lot of people on bikes and a lot of bike lanes. In fact one thing a heard a lot from people who live here say that I asked about the bike lanes is that they don't use them because there are too many cyclists on the bike lanes and they prefer to ride on other streets where they can go faster. Cycling in montreal was great. There are many trips you can make in the city in frequently travelled areas without needing to spend much time on the actual road as a number of the bike paths are separated and I personally wouldn't feel much of a safety risk not wearing a helmet in those areas. I also met with an old friend who I've known a long time in toronto. He never rode a bike in toronto, he's lived in montreal less than two months and now has a bike.

helmets that fit probably do work better than helmets that don't...and when helmets do fit there is also the problem I always have of keeping the chin straps at a good tension.

Since we don't have helmet laws in ontario, I assume it is more the infrastructure and city planning that has gotten people on bikes than their lack of helmet laws that is getting people on theirs bikes. But anything that helps people get on their bikes is a good thing. I'm sad to be going back to toronto.

Mon, 2010-09-27 20:36

#21

al-Qa'bong

The CBC ran a story a few weeks ago about changing our laws to force Saskatchewan cyclists to wear helmets. They talked to one helmet advocate who related his story about riding into a curb, falling down and hitting his head.

This guy doesn't need a helmet, he needs sterilisation. Potato-heads like this are peeing in the gene pool.

Quote:
Having to put on a helmet discourages me. Plus, my head gets much hotter, and I cannot easily hear the approaching traffic from behind.

I'm a hard-core cyclist (-15? I'm just adding a second layer) , but if they enact a helmet law, I'd consider selling my bike and driving instead.

I received an email from "Saskatoon Cycles"this afternoon. They are going to City Hall today to howl for cyclists' rights or something.

Quote:
From: Saskatoon Cycles

Just a quick reminder that Saskatoon Cycles will be presenting to City Council this evening.

We encourage all Saskatoon Cycles members to make their way to City Hall for just before 7pm (we will meet just outside the front doors) to show their support for our group and to demonstrate to City Council how important cycling is in Saskatoon.

While we can't promise what time we will present, we should be done by 8pm.

Even if you can't cycle down to City Hall, bring your bike gear and helmet to wear in Council Chambers so we are visible to Council and our local media.

My reply:

Hi: What exactly is "bike gear"? I ride my bike to work every day, and the only "gear" I've ever needed is a clip to keep my pants from catching in my chain. Maybe if cyclists were seen as regular people, not freaks dressed up like astronauts, we'd have an easier time convincing the general public that we're plain ordinary traffic, just like everyone else. alQ

Mon, 2010-09-27 20:49

#22

My Cat Knows Better My Cat Knows Better's picture

I bike a lot in Southern Ontario, summer and winter, (a couple of thousand km/yr). The only time I find a helmet uncomfortable is in winter, when I forget to cover my ears and get cold. For me, bike gear includes gloves, and long underwear in winter. I'm old enough to look really ridiculous in spandex bike shorts.

Mon, 2010-09-27 20:50

#23

Brian White

"The idea that wearing a vented helmet overheats your head is just plain silly". Actually, ANY fool who has ANY physics at all knows that ANY covering of the head increases the heat there. Vented or not the cooling airflow is severely restricted. The hat prevents the sun from warming up the top of the head and the shoulders. It leaves the air flowing over nearly the entire head.

No pissing match at all because you are pissing against the wind.

Ask a professional cyclist what they think of helmets and heat in the brain. The companies and sponsors have been trying to get the pros in europe to wear helmets for years. (So that they can sell more gear to the in awe amateur).

But the professionals (especially the road racers) have always fought tooth and nail against it.

And just to be sure, I typed in "professional cyclists and helmets" which basically confirms my view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet

"When mandatory bicycle helmet laws were enacted in Australia, slightly more than one third of bare-headed cyclists ceased to ride their bicycles frequently.[59] In the UK between 1994 and 1996, in areas where cyclist counts dropped, wearing rates increased and where the number of cyclists increased, helmet wearing rates fell.[60]

And if we cross reference that result with the chart up thread, we can easily infer that bike helmets are causing death, not saving people.

And, timebandit, if you do not know about the severe disadvantages from helmets in crosswinds (and it makes no difference how "aerodynamic" they are) Imagine a plane flying sideways! it is pointless discussing this with you. You just want to inflict helmets on everybody because you live in a cold (in winter not in summer) place and you do not like the idea of commuting by bike.

Timebandit wrote:

Dude, I live in Saskatchewan. Crosswinds? Yeah, we've got 'em.

Why do we recommend people wear hats on hot sunny days to prevent sunstroke? By your logic, hat-wearers would be dropping like flies. And yet, wearing a hat works. My bicycle helmet is no hotter than the straw hat I wear when I walk.

At the risk of getting into a defensive pissing match with you, yes, I have walked and cycled to work or school over a long period of time, sometimes over several miles. Given a choice and the time to do so, I prefer walking to buses. I am intimately acquainted with wind chill factors and how to dress for them (and if you think cold doesn't mean shit, you haven't lived out here). That said, however, I wouldn't bike in extremely cold weather for several reasons, one being ice on the roads. I do know people who bike year-round but they are rare, brave souls and expecting the average person to do that out here is just plain daft.

Now, it's true I've always lived in Canada, but I've spent a lot of time traveling - I've spent time in Europe and in Asia where biking is more common. So what? It has little bearing on my objections.

Mon, 2010-09-27 21:48

#24

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Actually, I never said I don't like the idea of commuting by bicycle. In fact, I've stated that I've done so myself. Nor did I express any desire to "inflict" helmets on anyone else. I simply stated that it's my opinion that they are a good idea and presented the reason for my opinion. Stop putting words in my mouth and drop the nasty tone, please.

My quibble was that comparisons of Canada to more temperate locales is sort of apples to oranges. There are factors at work here that need to be reasonably taken into account. An average daily high of -22 in the dead of winter being one of those factors - and one of several reasons that the habit of bicycle commuting is harder to develop out here. Even though some hardy souls like Al Q brave the cold and icy roads regardless. As for crosswinds, it's difficult to believe that the helmet has any appreciable impact that your body doesn't already create. And yes, I live in the flattest part of the country where high winds are extremely common, and yes, I've commuted on bicycle in said winds. I've never noticed any effect at all, never mind a "severe" one.

Your link doesn't say anything about bike helmets vis a vis heat and the human brain. Got any other links? Oh, and this page of wikipedia has a section where neutrality is questioned - I'm skeptical about the rest of it, too.

It doesn't actually matter that pro cyclists don't like helmets. Their job isn't to make cycling in traffic safer. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, other than being an appeal to authority. Frankly, your arguments are scattered and undeveloped and a hostile attitude doesn't make them any better.

You still haven't addressed my point: If a vented helmet causes overheating, how is it that one of the recommended actions against heatstroke is... A HAT? Wouldn't that cause the same problem? You know, because "ANY fool who has ANY physics at all knows that ANY covering of the head increases the heat there." Got some medical science to back up them there physics?

Mon, 2010-09-27 21:57

#25

al-Qa'bong

The only time I wear a hat on a bike is to keep the sun out of my eyes or the frost out of my ears. Other than that, I have no use for headgear while cycling...or while doing anything else.

Mon, 2010-09-27 22:10

#26

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

And I always wear a helmet when I bike, and so does the rest of the family. I also don't like biking on icy ground, so once the snow flies, the bike goes into storage. I walk in just about any weather, though. But then, I can wear a long coat, which I find much warmer than wearing long underwear.

Mon, 2010-09-27 22:26

#27

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

And I think that's great, ebody - I know a dedicated cyclist in Montreal, but I also know that she doesn't ride in the winter. I also don't think your winters are all that bad... They end a heckuvalot sooner than ours does!

Re: temperate areas - I did not know where Brian was from, however it was clear that he's not from Saskatchewan. As I said, there are people who ride year-round here, but they are a minority. Al Q, who clearly has antifreeze in his veins, is one of them. So, while I support infrastructure and biking, I also know that it's harder to build a critical mass of biking that could lead to that infrastructure here.

Another nice thing about Montreal - you have a good, working public transit system. Out here, not so much. One of the down sides of living in a small to medium sized city, unfortunately. So driving culture is much more entrenched here than in Montreal or Toronto, where you can get around without a car much more easily, year-round.

Mon, 2010-09-27 22:45

#28

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Timebandit wrote:

My quibble was that comparisons of Canada to more temperate locales is sort of apples to oranges. There are factors at work here that need to be reasonably taken into account. An average daily high of -22 in the dead of winter being one of those factors

Well Brian is from Victoria, Munster germany and amsterdam which probably have some of the highest cycling rates in the world both have winter tempratures which are on average actually slightly lower than victoria. It's probably also important to note all three of these cities also have similarly mild summer tempratures.

And in case you didn't notice the montreal cycling scene is booming(beyond anything else Im aware of in canada) Winters in montreal are bad, and they might not ride so much in the winter but they are still putting in the infastructure. Do you really still need us to prove the worth of doing so? Do we need to compare them to a place like helsinki which has similar winter tempratures to prove its a good idea to promote cycling in coler places?

as far as Ice goes I don't often encounter it in toronto except in certain obvious conditions which can easily be avoided .. such as a rainfall followed by a quick freeze or a snow fall followed my a melt and a freeze. Most of the winter one does not need to worry about ice here. i don't think ice should be used as reason to not increase the cyclability of canadian cities in general. If that's not what your are trying to say, can we all try to stop being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative and restrict posts to offering productive ideas.

Mon, 2010-09-27 23:15

#29

Brian White

hobyirwin, how bluddy dare you insult my logic. I am sick of people who are losing arguements taking shitty cheap shots.

I can point to Holland where people do not have to wear helmets having very low death per km rates when cycling. I can point to professional road race cyclists who go at incredible speeds absolutely hating the things. You have only your opinion to back your arguement up (and statistics from the bike helmet makers).

Like gee, they are impartial!

the wikipedia piece about bike helmets has sources and is not an opinion piece. By the way your piece is an opinion piece, just so you know.

And concidering that when they legislated helmet use in australia it forced 1/3 of the cyclists off the road!

Thats incredible when you think of it. 1/3 of the cyclists say "fuck it" stop cycling and the accident rate per km cycled goes UP!

Any of you brilliant minds explain that? I think you are so stubborn that you refuse to get it.

Legislated helmets make the km cycled per year take a massive nose dive and the accident rate goes up.

It is crystal clear.

How can getting a grown adult to put a helmet on make things safer for cycling kids?

It CLEARLY doesn't make cycling safer for anyone. The accident statistics PROVE it.

Of course you will get less accidents if 1/3 of the cyclists stop using their bikes!

But that doesn't make cyclists safer. Being rare does not make you safe.

Its like saying that the government of bc has reduced the spotted owl death rate to 30 per year. BRAVO!! (By reducing their numbers to a couple of hundred).

Tell me about the long term diabetes rate mr long term injury expert. Is it going up or down? Well, guess who is to blame for that?

You and Sineed and all the others who only see a tiny part of the picture.

hobyirwin wrote:

Brian White

Niether source you quote offers any evidence against helmet safety, they are only opinion pieces.

Long term injury studies, as Sineed suggests, offer facts not opinions.

My Grandmother hated seat belts. As a young girl she was tossed from a car in an accident while the driver, who stayed with in the car, was seriously injured. In the Yukon this year there has been a steady stream of people ejected from vehicles suffer death and sever injuries. Wear the belts. The chances of a vehicle rolling on you and hurting you are far greater than any injury a belt is going to cause you.

With logic like you present I'm surpised you're not advocating construction sites ban hard hats. They are hot, restrict your vision and your hearing. I'm not going to stop wearing mine.

On a personal note. I've had many accidents while riding both motorcycles and bikes. I've broken several helmets and put myself in the hospital 3 times. I've always wore a helmet and and never had a head injury. I wouldn't ride anything without one on. Also, bicycle helmets are not that hot. , if it is you bought the wrong one.

Tue, 2010-09-28 08:44

#30

Maysie

Brian, your invective is getting a bit out of hand. Dial it down.

Tue, 2010-09-28 10:54

#31

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

As I said, there are people who ride year-round here, but they are a minority. Al Q, who clearly has antifreeze in his veins, is one of them.

Cold isn't really much of a problem. You just add layers as the temperature goes down. Then you heat up quite nicely. I find that I sweat way more riding during the winter.

Snow is trouble, though. I had to shut the bike down for a week last February until the roads were cleared after our one big snowfall. I wipe out on ice fairly frequently, but the only damage has been to my clothes, knees and elbows. My head never goes near the deck.

Tue, 2010-09-28 11:20

#32

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Yup, and there's the way they plow streets so that the snow is in big ridges along the curb as winter carries on. The streets narrow, and so does the berth between you and the cars. I lack the confidence to take that on, even though I haven't taken a spill on my bike since I was 12.

Tue, 2010-09-28 11:55

#33

6079_Smith_W

Brian White:

One thing they have in Netherlands that we don't have here is a bike roadway that is completely separate from cars (as in - a big curb between cyclists and vehicles, and seperate traffic lights). I know it's not that way everywhere, but most places where I biked were like that. Pretty hard to get in an accident when you are not on the same road. Also, I don't know if Netherlands has mandatory electric bike lights, but that is the law in Germany.

Me, I just think it is much safer to stay off the main drags where cars are going faster than 50. When I lived in Vancouver I eventually stopped biking to work and walked instead because there was no convenient way other than going through Clark and Terminal. Too many big trucks, too much fumes and I felt a little bit too close to being squished on occasion.

I actually did have a truck back over my bike while I was sitting on it once, though that was many years earlier, in WInnipeg.

As to legislation, I don't really care. I have lived in places where it was the law and places where it was not. I wear a helmet, though I must admit it is more to set a good example for the kids, because I didn't used to.

Tue, 2010-09-28 12:42

#34

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Well, since the thread has been completely derailed by bickering, allow me to thank ebodyknows for an interesting attempt at conversation, and particularly for re-introducing me to Ivan Illich, whom I had previously only encountered in reference to the deschooling movement.

Tue, 2010-09-28 20:42

#35

Ghislaine

One thing people are forgetting in this discussion is children. People with children cannot commute by bicycle and public transit is less than ideal. shuttling kids to daycare before work is most easily accomplished with a car.

Tue, 2010-09-28 21:10

#36

Maysie

Ghislaine, many families who live in cities with public transportation don't have cars. For some they can't afford a car, and in other cases, they choose not to buy one.

And many tasks are more easily accomplished with a car, that's not the issue. Convenience, Western-world style, is part of driver culture, and part of the problem.

Tue, 2010-09-28 21:25

#37

Fidel

[url=http://www.bicycletrek.org/JoeFamilyBike.jpg]Family mini-van[/url]

Tue, 2010-09-28 21:49

#38

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Maysie wrote:

Ghislaine, many families who live in cities with public transportation don't have cars. For some they can't afford a car, and in other cases, they choose not to buy one.

And many tasks are more easily accomplished with a car, that's not the issue. Convenience, Western-world style, is part of driver culture, and part of the problem.

It depends on the city. If I lived in Toronto, I likely wouldn't own a car - when I visit, even though I usually have meetings in a number of locations on a given day, I generally use transit. I love a city with workable public transit, and never met a subway system I didn't think was no end of cool - although my very favourite is the U-bahn in Berlin.

However, in a smaller centre, it's not so easy. Here, buses generally run every half hour most of the day, but some routes have longer cycles than others. Because we don't have as much density, it's likely you'll have to transfer, and if the transfers don't line up, you're waiting around 20 minutes. Granted, that doesn't sound like much, but at -25 or -30 it sucks majorly. Some days there is a real risk of frostbite. So, if I've got kids in tow and there's another option, I'll take it.

At one point I was teaching a night class and had to bus it (single vehicle family, the hubby needed it those nights). Easy-peasy, the bus stops half a block from my house. But given the schedules for off-peak hours, my actual choice was to walk 7 blocks alone in the dark, or wait 40 minutes for my transfer in front of a locked up mall down town alone in the dark.

We've really got a vicious cycle here. Car culture is entrenched because the city was poorly planned in the first place, but also because the transportation system is inadequate. The city doesn't want to beef up the transit system because people don't ride it. So which comes first, the service or the rider?

Tue, 2010-09-28 23:16

#39

al-Qa'bong

Just about every day I wonder how things would be if the roads were designed for bikes, and motorists were forced to adapt to us.

Tue, 2010-09-28 23:21

#40

Bacchus

Hmmm thinner cars? Which cant go faster than 30-40?

Wed, 2010-09-29 06:05

#41

Merowe

Ghislaine wrote:

One thing people are forgetting in this discussion is children. People with children cannot commute by bicycle and public transit is less than ideal. shuttling kids to daycare before work is most easily accomplished with a car.

Hey, Ghislaine, actually here in Dresden you see a great army of parents and children cycling together. The city has the highest birth rate in Germany and is crawling with little nippers. There is a much wider variety of children's seating arrangements, which attach at various places to an adult's bike, as well as lightweight trailers mounted behind that seat two little'uns. And there are these adapter-bars that allow a child's bike to anchor to an adult bike in front while still permitting the child to pedal as well, and a lot of two person bikes. I see such configurations hundreds of times a day, presumably because the bicycle infrastructure here is so well developed. Lots of dedicated lanes, with their very own cute little bike traffic lights as well, it's pretty cool.

Wed, 2010-09-29 11:48

#42

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Maysie wrote:

And many tasks are more easily accomplished with a car, that's not the issue. Convenience, Western-world style, is part of driver culture, and part of the problem.

Care fully before making the 'easily accomplished' designation. If we are going to take Illich's comment referenced in the first post seriously I think we need to rethink how easy cars actually make things. What does a car cost? A quick web search is telling me the cheapest start around 10,000. That's already 1/3 of the average Canadian income even before you start thinking about actually fuelling it to go anywhere.....That sounds like a whole lot of work to me.

I asked my partner if she was familiar with illich and found out her mom did a masters thesis on his writings. After studying Illich her response was to move to a small town(current population is listed at 4000) as it afforded her the oppurtunity to live as a single stay at home parent without a car for a number of years before she needed to find work. My ex grew up in olds Alberta and her father cycled to work(at least in the summer months, I forget what he did in winter). I was able to live and work the school year in cap chat(population 2777)* one year and managed without a car even though I refrained from cycling that winter season. true some co-workers would commute more than 1.5 hours one way every day, usually because there significant other had a job somewhere else.

Granted many places were designed to inhabited by car drivers, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to apply better planning than we are currently accepting. Timebandit, isn't there any little things you see that could help improve the cycle-bility of where you live despite the challenges you have mentioned? I agree it's a tricky chicken or egg question in regards to cyclists/public transit users vs infrastructure suitable services. Certainly there are many who will absolutely not cycle till proper infrastructure is there.

All the talk about temperature and noticing which side of the street montreal built there 2-way bike paths has really got me thinking of the importance of shade at least in our hot and humid in the summer locations.

On the weekend the founder of caravan a man from Senegal who does cycling training for immigrants in Montreal talked about the winter being an unthinkable possibility for him when he first started cycling in Montreal but after a few years he was simply to heart broken to be able to stop when winter came. His view was don't think about winter, just get more people cycling in the warm weather and more winter riders will follow. Short of constructing sheltered cycling routes I do think it's not in our best interest to think to much about the winter problem till we have more warm weather cyclists.

Al'Q I can't believe you wipe out all the time on ice and don't do something about it! Have you tried studded tires?

As was mentioned my body actually gets quite warm while cycling the problem is the extremities. toes, fingers, nose and ears. I sewed myself a hat that fits under my helmet out of a old silk shirt with giant ear flaps that I stuffed with milkweed fluff, i felted my self some super thick mittens to keep myself warm. The folks from quebec city were also recommending ski goggles, chemical heat packs that can be placed inside mitts and boots.

*cap chat and surrounding towns had an interesting public transport system which I believe was run by a NGO that took you where you wanted to go you just had to sign up a day in advance...but mostly i was just able to walk everywhere i needed to go.

Wed, 2010-09-29 14:24

#43

polly bee

Wed, 2010-09-29 14:27

#44

Bacchus

ebody, where did you and yours live in that small town? Cuz in every small town I know (especially in the US) unless you lived right downtown (not that downtown was big or anything) you HAD to have a car to get anywhere. And there were way more people not in downtown than was

Wed, 2010-09-29 15:41

#45

6079_Smith_W

A friend of mine moved down to Victoria Texas about a decade ago to take a job.

She took her bike with her, and it is hard to say who was more surprised - her, or the locals. As one of the people said to her, "You're going to ride a BIKE? You might get shot!"

Wed, 2010-09-29 16:29

#46

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Thanks Polly for offering an idea.

Bacchus, in the following map I lived at A and worked at B(12 minute walk) got groceries at C(20 minute walk) and in the pre-snow months cycled to the organic farm at D(20 minutes on bike).

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=21+rue+de+ruisseau,+cap...

It's true not everybody lived close the downtown as I did but quite a lot did, and with some thought put into how we plan our living spaces a lot is possible(eevn the example town above which is cornered between the sea and mountains where much is to be desired in terms of possibilities for efficiency of layout much can be done). When I lived in Cameroon almost nobody owned a bicycle let alone a car and they lived much closer to each other as a result. As it was in cap chat I shared a 4 bedroom house with 1 other person. We had a far greater amount of living space than we needed. My job only paid me for part time hours, I ate organic food and still managed to save money.

It's true the large cultural shift that would make re-designing cities to be less car-centric might not be worth holding your breath over but isn't it worth considering how our own personal lives are set-up and considering which more efficient and convivial alternatives we can start personally living within the broader culture...some people have been doing it for a much longer than I have.

Wed, 2010-09-29 17:29

#47

Maysie

Zero Emission No Noise: Zenn Car

Thu, 2010-09-30 00:42

#48

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

ebodyknows wrote:

Care fully before making the 'easily accomplished' designation. If we are going to take Illich's comment referenced in the first post seriously I think we need to rethink how easy cars actually make things. What does a car cost? A quick web search is telling me the cheapest start around 10,000. That's already 1/3 of the average Canadian income even before you start thinking about actually fuelling it to go anywhere.....That sounds like a whole lot of work to me.

snip

Granted many places were designed to inhabited by car drivers, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to apply better planning than we are currently accepting. Timebandit, isn't there any little things you see that could help improve the cycle-bility of where you live despite the challenges you have mentioned? I agree it's a tricky chicken or egg question in regards to cyclists/public transit users vs infrastructure suitable services. Certainly there are many who will absolutely not cycle till proper infrastructure is there.

snip

On the weekend the founder of caravan a man from Senegal who does cycling training for immigrants in Montreal talked about the winter being an unthinkable possibility for him when he first started cycling in Montreal but after a few years he was simply to heart broken to be able to stop when winter came. His view was don't think about winter, just get more people cycling in the warm weather and more winter riders will follow. Short of constructing sheltered cycling routes I do think it's not in our best interest to think to much about the winter problem till we have more warm weather cyclists.

My car didn't cost $10,000 - I drive an elderly Volvo wagon I bought for under $4500. She's not flashy, but she gets from a to b and I can load both kids, both dogs and a load of groceries in her if I need to. Registration and insurance is much cheaper here than it is in Ontario as well. That said, yes, it still costs money to run and keep up. However, because our other vehicle was being used to shoot out of town regularly, it ws cheaper than renting a car as often as I needed to, and cheaper on gas than the minivan so we kept it.

Things to improve cyclability... They have put dedicated bike lanes in some of the downtown streets leading off the bike path through Wascana Park - sadly, I have yet to see a bicycle on them, and drivers tend to sort of wander into the lane. But at least a nod is being made. And they have put bike carriers on the front of some of the city buses. So yes, it's changing, but very slowly. Bicycle culture will not likely develop here until it's very well established in other centres. It's partly to do with climate, but it also has to do with mindset. It's much more prevalent in my neighborhood, which is just off the downtown core - but it's really the only neighborhood designed for walking in - probably becuase it dates to the very early 20th C when not everybody drove so much, so it has mixed commercial and residential streets. There's a lot of resistance to rezoning some commercial areas into neighborhoods that built up post WWII - people will pay lip service to having services in walkable distance, but don't really want to lose the residential enclave. We've also got a civic government that is full of real estate agents and a mayor whose base is solidly in the outer burbs, so there isn't a lot of political will.

I really wish I had the answer. There's a guy running for mayor in the next civic election who would take this sort of thing seriously, so we can hope.

I agree with the fellow from Senegal - work on the warm weather riders first. But if it's a challenge in Montreal, please remember it's a greater challenge out here on a lot of other fronts.

Thu, 2010-09-30 01:25

#49

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
It's partly to do with climate, but it also has to do with mindset.

I'd say it's mostly to do with mindset. Regina east of Arcola, and southern, western, eastern and northern Saskatoon appear to have been planned by eraserhaeads who think that the infernal combustion engine will be the principal means of powering transportation for the next 200 years.

Thu, 2010-09-30 02:01

#50

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

It's not just east of Arcola, although that's the most visible and advanced manifestation. It's happening in the north west part of the city, complete with big boxes starting to move in. And the south 'burbs are fine with malls, but not with weirdness like a grocery store you can walk to. The neighborhood the blond guy grew up in doesn't even have sidewalks on most streets - built in the '50s, early '60s and they just never put 'em in. And then there's the new development to the southwest - Harbour Landing, they call it. Given its proximity to the airport, I've taken to calling it Emergency Landing. (FFS, what harbour?! We're in the middle of the bald fucking prairie!!) It's been built with a Walmart Supercentre as the anchor. Because the city wouldn't rubber stamp the development unless it had services. You know, close enough to walk. Unbelievable. All the houses have giant garages out front.

We are sooooooo behind the times. You don't want to get me started on the proposal to build a giant bloody stadium DOWNTOWN. Because, you know, it totally wouldn't gut the core of the city in the guise of revitalizing it...

Thu, 2010-09-30 11:13

#51

6079_Smith_W

Timebandit wrote:

There's a lot of resistance to rezoning some commercial areas into neighborhoods that built up post WWII - people will pay lip service to having services in walkable distance, but don't really want to lose the residential enclave.

And yet they have no problem putting in those ridiculous stagnant ponds that are completely dead except for breeding mosquitoes and algae. I suppose it would be too scary for them to live next to an actual natural slough where a duck might want to nest or feed, and which feeds an aquifer as opposed to a sewer.

My brother-in-law's family used to live near the lone Mac's store that is located in the middle of Arbor Creek. It's the only business I have ever seen in one of those ridiculous mouse mazes. I think they must have put it there as a joke or a drunken wager. I also noticed on a recent delivery that they make all the names in those places maddeningly similar (Braemar, Braeburn, Braeside) which only adds to the confusion

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