Ford vs Smitherman vs Pantalone

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Fri, 2010-10-15 10:45

Stockholm

I think its time for a new generic thread about the Toronto mayoralty race. The news today is that Adam Vaughan has grudgingly endorsed Smitherman, while damning him with faint praise:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/875792--adam-vaughan-backs-smitherma...

"“I like Joe and I consider him a friend, but you have to fight the election you’re dealt, not the one you want,” Vaughan said in an interview Friday morning.

“The only way to deal with Rob Ford is George Smitherman. I’m prepared to work with George Smitherman,” he said.

“It’s not so much an endorsement as a frank and realistic look at the way the polls are breaking. Not only do they say George Smitherman is the only candidate who can beat Rob Ford, they say he is beating Rob Ford.”"

Issues Pages:

Elections

Fri, 2010-10-15 10:43

Cueball

Of course Vaughan is willing to work with Smitherman. I mean, basically unless Smitherman gets in Vaughan will be off the executive. Vaughan has every reason to be afraid of Ford. Me, I don't have anything to lose.

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:02

Stockholm

Of course this begs the question - just how bad would Smitherman be as mayor if in order to win he has had to make deals to stack the executive committee with so many of the same people that Pantalone would have named (ie: Vaughan, Mihevc, McConnell etc...), plus promising to make John Sewell head of a commission on municipal governance? The mayor personally is just one vote on council, his administration is the sum of its parts. I would rather have the city run by an executive that includes all of the above names than one consisting of Rob Ford's brother Doug, plus Denzil Minnan-Wong, Karen Stintz and Mike Del Grande and sundry other rightwing crackpots.

Half a loaf is preferable to no loaf at all, but so far I still want to get a whole loaf!

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:39

Stockholm

I also saw that the Toronto Environmental Alliance which Gord Perks used to chair put out its report card on the candidates. Pantalone gets A+ and a 100% rating, Smitherman gets an A with a 90% rating and Ford gets an F with a rating of ZERO%.

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:40

Cueball

Vaughan doesn't have any ideas. He would just be taking orders. I can't think of anything progressive he has done. He main focus seems to be closing down all the venerable social institutions in the ward. Heard the Green Room is toast now. That on top of killing late night coffee and cheesecake at Futures. Guess the only option after 11:00 PM in the Annex is "the Beer Station, the Wreck Room, of the Brunswick Tavern". Thanks Adam! Also thanks for making my 80 year old mother have to walk half a mile to free run her toy dog.

Oddly I believe Joe Pantalone who was the one who got licensed patios allowed in Toronto. Given Adam's penchant for closing down patios, and making it tough for night club owners to run a business, it does not seem odd at all that Vaughan would end up backing the opposition. Mostly he seems to work for yuppy developers. Basically the whole election is turning out to be a war between the Liberal yuppy developers, and the conservative developers.

Adam already works for the former, so this is a perfect match. Fortunately I own property in this ward, so I stand to profit when Adam finishes getting rid of all the artists and other low-lifes from the ward and the property values go up!

The one thing I can say that is good about Adam is that he "means well" but he certainly wont be making any demands that Smitherman will have to meet.

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:42

Cueball

But Smitherman is full of shit.

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:52

Stockholm

That's a very substantive argument to use when trying to convince someone as to why Smitherman is "the devil incarnate".

It reminds of people who condemn the Liberals even when you point out that they have done SOME good things in the history of Canada (ie: national health care or the Charter of Rights and Freedoms) by pointing "yeah but, they only did those things to gain votes", or "they only did those things because the NDP pressured them". Its all true - but in the end who cares about whether a politician's motives are pure if you get the results you want in the end. I think Smitherman is "influenceable". Ford is not.

Fri, 2010-10-15 11:58

Cueball

Yes. He is under the influence of yuppy developers from the I can run people down and not even go to trial crowd. Of course Adam wants to connect with that.

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:02

Kloch

Stockholm wrote:

I think Smitherman is "influenceable". Ford is not.

And when it comes to influence, money talks and bullshit runs a marathon.

I'll say this, that's the most polite way of saying that a person is unprincipled and opportunistic that I have ever seen.

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:11

#10

Stockholm

I prefer someone cynical and unprincipled to someoen 100 percent principled and 100 percent fascistic!

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:11

#11

Cueball

Well... lets think of what Adam can influence Smitherman to do? How about bringing prohibition to Toronto? Odd that Stockholm should be suggesting that Vaughan who is not even in the NDP and defeated the NDP candidate in order to get where he is? How should he somehow cause Smitherman to be influencable by "the left". He still has got to present a single case where Vaughan has "caused" anything progressive to happen? Indeed when has he ever expressed the desire for something progressive to happen?

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:13

#12

Cueball

Ford is Hitler now! Worse! Maybe he is Canada's Amedinejad!

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:23

#13

Kloch

Ford is the 12th Imam.

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:24

#14

Kloch

Stockholm wrote:
I prefer someone cynical and unprincipled to someoen 100 percent principled and 100 percent fascistic!

How fortunate then, that we don't have to make that choice.

Fri, 2010-10-15 12:57

#15

robbie_dee

Globe and Mail: [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/ford-leads-in-first... leads in first poll narrowed to three candidates[/url]

Quote:

The first poll conducted in a narrower, three-person mayoral race after Rocco Rossi dropped out shows Rob Ford continues to lead with 10 days remaining in the race.

The Forum Research poll showed the Etobicoke councillor leads with 44 per cent of the 700 people polled, compared with 38 per cent for George Smitherman. Sixteen per cent of those surveyed said they plan to vote for Joe Pantalone. Two per cent selected someone else and 16 per cent of voters remain undecided.

Mr. Ford maintains a commanding lead in Etobicoke, with 53 per cent of those polled, while Mr. Smitherman is barely edging him in the old city of Toronto, with 39 per cent of the vote compared with 38 per cent for Mr. Ford. Mr. Ford was also leading among older, male voters.

Fri, 2010-10-15 14:01

#16

A political

700 polled that is a decent number, So if Joe get all of the 16 percent undecided and the 2 percent voting for others he still loses! Yep he should stay in the race to ensure that Ford wins. Illogical but not surprising!

Fri, 2010-10-15 14:13

#17

Lord Palmerston

Good thinking. Better to let the two leading right-wing candidates get a combined 95% of the vote.

Fri, 2010-10-15 14:23

#18

this_guy

This discussion makes me think that our municiapl voting system might be worse off than our federal and provincial ones. I strongly beleive that the federal and provincial ones need proportional representation, while that is not an option in a municipal no-party system. What's the solution? It's called single transferrable vote (STV). If we had STV, all of the Pantalone supporters could vote their conscience and unless they are really confused, would select Smitherman 2nd or anywhere before Ford on subsequent choices. Then on the last round of counting votes, it would come down to Smitherman and Ford and Smitherman would get in. Whether or not Ford wins this election, this is something that council really should consider! It is simply the most democratic system to select a mayor. Can we all agree on that?

Fri, 2010-10-15 14:35

#19

nussy

Thats presuming that Smitherman is the second choice. I would not bet on it. The council will ultimately control the power not Ford.

Fri, 2010-10-15 15:37

#20

A political

nussy wrote:

The council will ultimately control the power not Ford.

If the fact that council will control the power is the reason you are not afraid of letting Ford win-council will ultimately control the power if Smitherman wins as well. Only difference is I am sure Smitherman is not going to embarrass me every time he opens his month-but I can count on Ford embarrassing me and Toronto as well

Fri, 2010-10-15 16:00

#21

Life, the unive...

A political wrote:

nussy wrote:

The council will ultimately control the power not Ford.

Only difference is I am sure Smitherman is not going to embarrass me every time he opens his month-but I can count on Ford embarrassing me and Toronto as well

Seriously? Have you ever heard Smitherman? I am not sure that is a given at all!

Fri, 2010-10-15 17:28

#22

nussy

Very little to choose between the two. Im sure Ford has handlers that will shadow him at all times. They seem to be doing a good job because he is maintaining a very low profile and waiting for Smitherman to shoot himself in the foot. Smitherman has been know to fly off the handle.

Fri, 2010-10-15 18:05

#23

Stockholm

this_guy wrote:

This discussion makes me think that our municiapl voting system might be worse off than our federal and provincial ones. I strongly beleive that the federal and provincial ones need proportional representation, while that is not an option in a municipal no-party system. What's the solution? It's called single transferrable vote (STV).

Sorry to be picky but what you are talking about is called AV (alternative voting) where you get to rank candidates and it produces an instant run-off effect. STV is a form of proportional representation involving multi-member ridings - nothing that is at all applicable to a race for mayor.

Fri, 2010-10-15 18:27

#24

JeffWells

I would like to see head-to-head polls comparing Ford vs Smitherman to Ford vs Pantalone. I bet the former would be neck and neck and the latter would be a Pantalone lead.

Actually, I would have prefered to have seen that about a month ago, rather than with 10 days to go.

Fri, 2010-10-15 20:36

#25

Cueball

The Star only gets Ipsos Reid to ask the questions that it wants answered, and only publishes the polls that it wants too.

Fri, 2010-10-15 22:59

#26

autoworker autoworker's picture

behind the Ford campaign...

http://www.windsorstar.com/health/Anne+Jarvis+Kouvalis+hard+stop/3661297...

Sat, 2010-10-16 00:15

#27

Cueball

Quote:
Respondents who support or are leaning toward Pantalone were asked how they would vote if he withdrew from the race -- something he has said he will not do. Under that scenario, Ford and Smitherman would be virtually tied, with Ford at 49 per cent support and Smitherman at 48 per cent.

Ford has 6 point lead in first major poll since Rossi pullout

Sat, 2010-10-16 00:19

#28

socialdemocracynow

What?? Toronto doesn't have a spending problem?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-DxAcFLwU8

Sat, 2010-10-16 02:28

#29

Lord Palmerston

Cueball wrote:

Quote:
Respondents who support or are leaning toward Pantalone were asked how they would vote if he withdrew from the race -- something he has said he will not do. Under that scenario, Ford and Smitherman would be virtually tied, with Ford at 49 per cent support and Smitherman at 48 per cent.

Ford has 6 point lead in first major poll since Rossi pullout

Strategic voting rarely works.

The ONDP got their lowest-ever percentage of the popular vote in the 1999 provincial election, that didn't stop the Harris Tories from being re-elected with a majority government.

Sat, 2010-10-16 07:28

#30

Cueball

You mean you think that Toronto's having a 9 billion dollar year roung budget is a large number?When you consider the fact that Toronto is policed year round for a billion dollars, when it cost the Feds one billion to police Toronto for a week of G20 summit.

If Harper was running Toronto, it appears the police budget alone would top 54 Billion.

I suggest you take a google map of a single city street, and then zoom out, and zoom out again, and zoom out again, and again, and again, until you are looking at a map that encompasses the entire GTA. Then consider that for that measily 9 billion, the entire city is policed, served with a fired department, a social welfare department, a system of social housing, homeless shelters, traffic lights, traffic signs, road repair crews and EMS teams, and much much more. Geeze, the government for the 6th largest economic unit in Canada has oly a 9 billion dollar budget, and no deficit, like the five above them.

Isn't a government with no deficit what you wanted? Funny, the right wingers, like yourself, who are always howling about deficit's never seem to be able to provide a government without one, while Miller and Pantalone have. Lol.

We have a transit system that has the LOWEST subsidy rates for any major urban center in North America, and a per ride cost that is on par with or lower than most transit systems in North America. I would think that you would thank your lucky stars that Toronto doesn't enforce a 6% transit tax and subsidize each ride on the TTC like Vancouver does to the tune of $2.50. Never mind that Toronto does all this with the lowest percentage residential property tax in the region.

But of course. the "Gravy Train" tag line is just another way for the conservative to try and get their due at the public trough, like all good "tax and rob" conservatives. Am I surprised that the partially privatized York Region transit system has a higher cost per fare ratio than Vancouver, and that the taxpayers spend more per ride that almost any other city in Canada? Hardly. Fiscal conservatism is conservative in everything but feathering their own nests.

My only question about you is are you a fool setting yourself up to get taken to the cleaners, yet again, or shill who expects to make a profit by being on the inside of the pig pen?

What's your idea Mr. Social Democrat? That the entire cost of the TTC should be run off the fare box. Problem is that you want to expand the system as well, like say they did in Vancouver, where the total cost per fare is $5 including all government subsidies. In that scenario the total payment of each person taking a trip on the TTC will be $5.50. That is about the only way that Robert Ford could unburden the cost of the TTC off the "taxpayer" and still expand all his imaginary subway systems.

Of course subway patrons don't count as "taxpayers" that need to be "respected". Really they are some kind of leach.

Is that the kind of "spending problem" you are alleging exists. Dirt cheap transit with little to no government subsidies?

Sat, 2010-10-16 08:58

#31

Maysie

I just watched the video socialdemocracynow posted. It's a very positive and well-cited piece about how Toronto is not in crisis, and that our tax rates, etc, are better than most cities in the GTA.

Cueball, I loved your rebuttal, even though I don't see socialdemocracynow arguing the standard pro-cuts talking points at post#27, if the content of that video is assumed to be his/her stance. But it does continue to amaze me that the "Toronto is out of control" hype keeps getting hyped, with no facts behind it.

Oh, except for this Cueball:

Cueball wrote:
My only question about you is are you a fool setting yourself up to get taken to the cleaners, yet again, or shill who expects to make a profit by being on the inside of the pig pen?

Cueball, don't do that. But keep doing everything else.

Sat, 2010-10-16 09:57

#32

Stockholm

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Quote:
Respondents who support or are leaning toward Pantalone were asked how they would vote if he withdrew from the race -- something he has said he will not do. Under that scenario, Ford and Smitherman would be virtually tied, with Ford at 49 per cent support and Smitherman at 48 per cent.

Ford has 6 point lead in first major poll since Rossi pullout

Strategic voting rarely works.

The ONDP got their lowest-ever percentage of the popular vote in the 1999 provincial election, that didn't stop the Harris Tories from being re-elected with a majority government.

It does work in individual ridings (ie: Linda Duncan winning in Edmonton-Strathcona) and in fact in 1999 it certainly cost the Harris Tories a lpot of seats - but the problem was that the Tories still won 45% of the vote in 1999 - so there just wasn't a large enough anti-Tory vote to "strategize".

In the 2003 Toronto mayoral race, strategic voting (if you want to call it that) worked very well. In the final two weeks of the campaign, people abandoned Barbara Hall for David Miller to prevent John Tory from winning and Miller beat Tofry by a relatively narrow 44-40% margin.

Sun, 2010-10-17 13:22

#33

Lord Palmerston

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/876268--star-s-choice-... surprise here[/url]

Sun, 2010-10-17 16:32

#34

Cueball

Sun, 2010-10-17 17:21

#35

Cueball

Fundamentally, the race has devloved into a race between Yuppie Liberal developers and Conservative developers.

Sun, 2010-10-17 17:47

#36

edmundoconnor

Lord Palmerston wrote:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/876268--star-s-choice-... surprise here[/url]

Not the worst!
Not the worst!

But as Smitherman himself says, "Compare me to the alternative, not the almighty."

Isn't that just George paraphrasing PET? Hand-me-down witticisms aren't that impressive.

And not one word about eHealth. Telling.

Sun, 2010-10-17 19:36

#37

takeitslowly

I am voting for Smitherman to stop queer bashing. Rob Ford is dangerous, he reminds me of George Bush, i dont think we should give him any more power , even as a Mayor.

I am afraid of someone who wont even pretend to be gay friendly in Toronto.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Ford_to_dodge_debate_at_The_519-9291....

Mon, 2010-10-18 06:13

#38

Cueball

Didn't see that coming...

Excelent! It has been said before that people get the government they deserve. In Smitherman's Toronto, it doesn't matter if you are gay or not you will still get fucked over! Forget about the right of people to collectively organize, queer or not, and forget about the right not to be exploited because of the colour of your skin, queer or not, forget about parks, trees, services, swiming pools, queer or not, as long as there is not any exploitation or abuse because of sexual orientation everything is just AOK!. Lets celebrate the ability of the queer people such as George Smitheman to take on the mantle of power and undermine the rights of labour and minorities, just like the rest of the privileged white folks!

Hooray! That is real progress!

Doesn't matter Ford is going to crush the faux left, gay or not.

Mon, 2010-10-18 08:51

#39

Stockholm

But we have a choice! We could support Pantalone who supports the police actions during the G20, supports "Israeli apartheid" (sic.) and wholeheartedly supported the city's position when the muncipal workers went on strike last summer!! Viva la revolucion!

Mon, 2010-10-18 10:01

#40

Olly

Fundamentally, the race has devloved into a race between Yuppie Liberal developers and Conservative developers.

Wow, have you not walked through Joe Pantalone's ward lately? It's unfettered condo development par excellence. Ugliest waterfront in the city is Trinity-Spadina. Thanks Joe!!

Mon, 2010-10-18 10:06

#41

Maxx

Ford isn't going to "crush" anybody. He is losing steam. According to the 2 latest polls, Smitherman and Ford are statistically tied. Pantalone is Toronto's Ralph Nader.

Mon, 2010-10-18 11:24

#42

Stockholm

That's a gross exaggeration. First of all Pantalone is not wallowing at 2% in the polls like nader. He's at 15 or 16%.

Secondly, as much as Ford is a nauseating pig (and Smitherman and ever so slightly less nauseating pig) - the stakes in the mayoralty of Toronto are about one one millionth as high as in a US presidential election. The President of the United States can declare wars, has VAST executive powers, appoints supreme court justices for life and is generally acknowldged to be the single most powerful individual on the face of the earth. In contrast, the mayor of Toronto is a glorified pothole fixer. The consequence of Bush becoming President was two wars, massive deficits and the world on the brink of economic collapse. The consequence of Ford as mayor - is we would have to grit our teeth for four years while an embarrassing buffoon is the "face of Toronto".

Mon, 2010-10-18 13:08

#43

Roberteh

Stockholm wrote:

That's a gross exaggeration. First of all Pantalone is not wallowing at 2% in the polls like nader. He's at 15 or 16%.

Secondly, as much as Ford is a nauseating pig (and Smitherman and ever so slightly less nauseating pig) - the stakes in the mayoralty of Toronto are about one one millionth as high as in a US presidential election. The President of the United States can declare wars, has VAST executive powers, appoints supreme court justices for life and is generally acknowldged to be the single most powerful individual on the face of the earth. In contrast, the mayor of Toronto is a glorified pothole fixer. The consequence of Bush becoming President was two wars, massive deficits and the world on the brink of economic collapse. The consequence of Ford as mayor - is we would have to grit our teeth for four years while an embarrassing buffoon is the "face of Toronto".

That is assuming that roll out of the conservative/corporate agenda does not take hold in the City. We are boundless in our optimism but the Left has not created any counter institutions to a Ford rule. Rather, it is a case of musical chairs. The music plays and everyone scrambles to take a seat. However, with the ever increasing choke hold of the Province denying cities money...each city competes with each other for lowest demoninator. Soon the rich and the middle vacate the city for the golden suburbs (705 and beyond) and you have a downtown of apartment blocks in slum-like conditions owned by private owners (probably living the good life in 705 ) and vast tracks of parking lots. Towering skyscapers/catherdals worshipping money. Those who are left behind forced to scrap against each other. No, this is nonesense but the reality of many cities in the Third World and it is coming to Canada faster and faster.

Mon, 2010-10-18 13:11

#44

Polunatic2

Quote:
Viva la revolucion!

Or as they say in the labour movement, "Viva la resolution".

Mon, 2010-10-18 14:12

#45

Wilf Day

One reform option seldom spoken of is the normal UK model of Council electing the Mayor. Of course that makes sense if councillors are elected on a party label, but few UK councils have one-party majorities anymore. Even with a diverse council, it makes sense to have a mayor who can work with the majority.

If Ford wins, and the majority of council don't support him, I can see the "parliamentary mayor" option suddenly becoming a popular reform topic.

Premature at this point, maybe. But wait and see.

Mon, 2010-10-18 14:25

#46

Centrist

Stockholm wrote:
The consequence of Ford as mayor - is we would have to grit our teeth for four years while an embarrassing buffoon is the "face of Toronto".

Yeah, I just can't get over the fact that this clown is leading the opinion polls. Ford is the object of humour and ridicule even as far away as out here in BC. I can now imagine Mayor Ford being interviewed on CNN, with their American audience, over subject material akin to the following:

Quote:
Ford has also exhibited boorish behaviour in the past. He has called one fellow councillor (a woman) "a waste of skin" and another (an Italian-Canadian) "Gino boy." He was visibly drunk and profane at a Leafs game.

The British press would have a field day with this guy. lol

Mon, 2010-10-18 15:51

#47

Stockholm

Wilf Day wrote:

One reform option seldom spoken of is the normal UK model of Council electing the Mayor. Of course that makes sense if councillors are elected on a party label, but few UK councils have one-party majorities anymore. Even with a diverse council, it makes sense to have a mayor who can work with the majority.

If Ford wins, and the majority of council don't support him, I can see the "parliamentary mayor" option suddenly becoming a popular reform topic.

Premature at this point, maybe. But wait and see.

London has a direct election for mayor. Otherwise what you are describing is essentially creating a mini-parliamentary system at the municipal level.

Mon, 2010-10-18 17:14

#48

Cueball

Olly wrote:

Wow, have you not walked through Joe Pantalone's ward lately? It's unfettered condo development par excellence. Ugliest waterfront in the city is Trinity-Spadina. Thanks Joe!!

Olly. Joe's ward is the ward that has the CNE and Ontario Place in it. It was Joe who turned the CNE around, preserving the existing 1920's era art deco architecture of the fair, and preventing it from being sold off for condo development. Indeed the entire waterfront of Joe's was is almost totally dedicated to public works, parks and recereational facilities for the enjoyment of the general public.

Ward 20 is the one with the condo developments, mostly.

Mon, 2010-10-18 20:03

#49

Polunatic2

On Friday I was listening to John Tory interviewing Rob Ford. It was "personal" (Smithereen and Pants were on earlier in the week). When Tory asked Ford if there's was something he wanted to do, Ford replied that he wanted to learn French because it's a requirement for higher office. Just what is Ford's commitment to the mayor's job? Looks like he's aspiring for the real "Gravy trains".

Mon, 2010-10-18 20:20

#50

Stockholm

I think Ford needs to learn to speak proper English before he bites off more than he can chew with trying to learn French!

Mon, 2010-10-18 22:09

#51

N.R.KISSED

In the poll reported in the star today 40% of those voting for Smitherman say that they are doing so strategically.

http://www.thestar.com/news/torontomayoralrace/article/876860--ford-smit...

"Forty per cent of Smitherman supporters say they are voting strategically. He is encouraging the practice, targeting centre-right supporters of Rocco Rossi until Rossi dropped out last week, and going especially hard after Pantalone’s “progressive” following, declaring: “A vote for Joe Pantalone is a vote for Rob Ford.”

Naturally the star twists the result trying to suggest this number would include Rocco Rossi supporters. The poll was taken on Thursday and Fridayl, Rossi had officially withdrawn on Wednesday. You don't say that you are voting strategically if your canditate has already dropped out. The only conclusion then would be that those 40% would vote for Pantalone which would dramatically alter the standings.

If people just voted for who they wanted Pantalone would be at 32% and Smitherman would be at 24%. Surely then the drift of strategic support would have gone to Pants. Thank you very much toronto star for a campaign of complete disinfomation and propaganda beyond what would be even expected for a liberal partisan rag.

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