(NATO) Imperialists Hands Off Libya! II

Reuters - No-fly zone for Libya would require attack: Gates

Quote:

"Let's just call a spade a spade. A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defenses ... and then you can fly planes around the country and not worry about our guys being shot down," Defense Secretary Robert Gates told a congressional hearing

New York Times - Libyan Rebels Said to Debate Seeking U.N. Airstrikes

Quote:

BENGHAZI, Libya — In a sign of mounting frustration among rebel leaders over Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s diminished but unyielding grip on power, rebel leaders here are debating whether to ask for Western airstrikes under the United Nations banner, according to four people with knowledge of the deliberations.

By invoking the United Nations, a council of opposition leaders made up of lawyers, academics, judges and other prominent figures is seeking to draw a distinction between such airstrikes and foreign intervention, which the rebels said they emphatically opposed.

“He destroyed the army; we have two or three planes,” said a spokesman for the council, Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga. He refused to say if there would be any imminent announcement about such strikes, but he wanted to make it clear: “If it is with the United Nations, it is not a foreign intervention.”

. . .

“If he falls with no intervention, I’d be happy,” one rebel leader said. “But if he’s going to commit a massacre, my priority is to save my people.”

There was no indication that the United Nations Security Council’s members would approve such a request, or that most Libyans who are seeking to topple Colonel Qaddafi would welcome it. Among the Security Council’s members, Russia has dismissed talk of a no-fly zone to curb strikes by the Libyan Air Force still under Colonel Qaddafi’s control, and China usually votes against foreign intervention.

The discussions appeared to signal a rebel movement that is impatient with a military stalemate that has crippled the country. The airstrikes’ supporters hoped they might dislodge Colonel Qaddafi from crucial strongholds, including a fortified compound in the capital, Tripoli.

The council is considering strikes against only the compound and assets like radar stations, according to the people briefed on the discussions, who requested anonymity because no formal decision had been made.

The United States acknowledged the sensitivity concerning outside intervention.

'US Imperialist Project Underway in ME'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/167853.html

"US plans imperialist strategies for the Middle East and is setting the stage for repeat dictatorhips, says political commentator Ralph Schoenman.

From a distant and forgotten past:

MI6 'Halted Bid To Arrest Bin Laden'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/nov/10/uk.davidshayler

Anyway, back to the thread topic, which is about imperialist intervention - planned or actual - in Libya.

Pepe Escobar wrote:

In their Sheen-style hysteria — with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton desperately offering "any kind of assistance" — Western politicians did not bother to consult with the people who are risking their lives to overthrow Gaddafi. At a press conference in Benghazi, the spokesman for the brand new Libyan National Transitional Council, human-rights lawyer Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, was blunt, [b]"We are against any foreign intervention or military intervention in our internal affairs ... This revolution will be completed by our people.[/b]"

The people in question, by the way, are protecting Libya's oil industry, and even loading supertankers destined to Europe and China. The people in question do not have much to do with opportunists such as former Gaddafi-appointed justice minister Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, who wants a provisional government to prepare for elections in three months. Moreover, [b]the people in question, as al-Jazeera has reported, have been saying they don't want foreign intervention for a week now.[/b]

[url=http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC03Ak03.html]Source[/url]

Libya's Bankers Exposed: Goldman, JP Morgan and Citi

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/libyas-bankers-exposed-goldman-jp-morga...

"all the usual suspects are here.."

[url=http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/03/russian-military-says-libyan-airstri... Military Says Libyan Airstrikes Did Not Take Place[/color][/url] by grtv

grtv wrote:

"All war is based on Deception" - "in war, the first casualty is truth"; Sun Tzu's Art of War

The reports of Libya mobilizing its air force against its own people spread quickly around the world. However, Russia's military chiefs say they have been monitoring from space - and the pictures tell a different story...

Libyan army taking defensive action against certain factions of "the rebels" who themselves have demanded no foreign military intervention. Other reports say that similar to the situation in Iraq leading up to 2003, there are US, British and French special forces on the ground in Libya and advising "the rebels" who are working to create situations of civil war and chaos. Those of the rebels who are part of the foreign influenced "rebels" will not win against Gadaffi's army and therefore will require NATO intervention at some point if they are to seize power and control of the country's oil wealth. There are legitimate rebels in Libya, apparently. But some speculation is that there are foreign-trained "al-Qaeda" there as well. And like Iraq, "al-Qaeda" presence will provide the casus belli for another US-led military occupation of another oil-rich country.

Taking The Cake: The Creeping Militarization Of The Libyan Crisis

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2098-...

"Yes, does this not, as they say, take the cake...and the plate and the forks and the napkins too? The United States, pushing through a measure to refer Libyan leaders to an international court which the United States resolutely refuses to recognize - - lest its own leaders and their underlings find themselves in the dock for the most monstrous war crimes of this century?

Yet even today, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate was sternly wagging his finger at Gaddafi and his underlings, telling them that they will be hald accountable for their actions before the august institutions of international justice, which weigh the whole world in the balance...except for the Peace prize winning drone assassin and Continuer in Chief of a world wide campaign of state terror, that is.

The 'responsibility to protect' invoked by those demanding intervention [Romeo Dallaire etc] is applied so selectively that the word hypocrisy doesn't do it justice. And the idea that states which are themselves responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands in illegal wars, occupations and interventions in the last decade, along with mass imprisonment without trial, torture and kidnapping, should be authorized by international institutions to prevent killings in other countries is simply preposterous..."

Quote:

[Defense Secretary Robert] Gates on Wednesday made clear the U.S. military would have to launch pre-emptive strikes to destroy Libya's air defenses if President Barack Obama ordered the imposition of a no-fly zone.

"Let's just call a spade a spade," Mr. Gates said. "A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya."

[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000142405274870355960457617579243940334... Street Journal[/url]

Petroleum and Empire in North Africa  - by Keith Harmon Snow

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23481

"Are events unfolding in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt more about petro-terrorism or about freedom and democracy? How much oil is there in North Africa? Who is in control of the oil? What is the relationship between the West and Muamar Ghadafi?

Almost everything in the western press on the crises in Libya is slanted by some faction or interest, or it is tainted by Western arrogance, or by anti-imperialist ideology (or 'solidarity'), even in the case of the alternative media, there is very little accurate reports of any kind.

This report is just another incomplete picture of an incomplete puzzle -- but it seeks to penetrate through and expose the ongoing western media campaign for what it is - a psychological operation against the masses of earth's people who have not and don't benefit from the rash polices and actions implemented to serve a very small and elite group of people.

People who wish to support the legitimate grievances and actions for freedom and truth in Libya should challenge the Western terrorist apparatus out of Washington DC, Tel Aviv, Brussels, London and Ottawa.  Prayers for the true innocent civilians in Libya and across the region."

The refugee problem increases...

UN: Gadhafi forces sowing fear along Libyan border

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110304/ap_on_re_eu/libya_refugees

Quote:

The torrent of refugees fleeing Libya has suddenly slowed, as heavily armed forces loyal to strongman Moammar Gadhafi rushed to sow violence and fear at the country's borders, U.N. refugee officials said Friday

More 200,000 people have fled to Libya's borders with Tunisia, Egypt and Niger since Feb. 15, when the uprising against Gadhafi's iron-fisted rule began. But now refugees are reporting robberies, intimidation and violence from loyalist forces.

Rebel commander killed in fighting; protesters tear gassed and fired on in Tripoli...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110304/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

Quote:

More than 1,500 protesters marched out of the Murad Agha mosque after noon prayers in the eastern Tripoli district of Tajoura, chanting "the people want to bring the regime down" and waved the red, black and green flag of Libya's pre-Gadhafi monarchy, adopted as the banner up the uprising.

But pro-Gadhafi forces quickly moved in. They fired volleys of tear gas and - when the marchers continued - opened fire with live ammunition, according to witnesses.

NATO should invade Palestine.  It's been decades; what's the delay?

C'mon boys, if we don't fight them here, we'll have to fight them in Tucson.

M. Spector wrote:

Unfortunately, right-wing social democrats have nothing useful to say when foreign populations revolt against imperialist rule. They are completely at a loss to comprehend any situation that doesn't revolve around counting ballots or votes in parliament.

Instead, they prefer to use the opportunity to mock the left and call for "humanitarian" intervention by the imperialists.

or reversing even minimally responsible policies regarding the militarist monster

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20040530/ndp_nato_040529/

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...

 Remember the Alamo? That lithograph is from the battle of Halls of Montezuma in the US-Mexican war, you know, the one where the US stole half of Mexico (including Arizona) from the Mexicans.

[humor]Just WOW, all I can do is shake my head....LOL

You've got the Texas Revolution of 1835 to 1836 and the Mexican War 1846 to 1848 mixed up into big pile of Canadian goo... The rest is a matter of opinion; you'd find mine VERY biased so we'd be wasting our time even talking about it.[/humor]

M. Spector wrote:

Keith Harmon Snow wrote:

Unfortunately, right-wing social democrats have nothing useful to say when foreign populations revolt against imperialist rule. They are completely at a loss to comprehend any situation that doesn't revolve around counting ballots or votes in parliament.

Instead, they prefer to use the opportunity to mock the left and call for "humanitarian" intervention by the imperialists.

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

DaveW wrote:

Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Indeed they do want a new constitution.  It is nice of you to presume they want it to be a western style one.  I prefer to wait to see what the people themselves will decide if they ever get to have a voice. I unfortunately think the new military dictatorship will ensure whatever facade that is created will always result in pro-west parties winning. You know like democracy in Lebanon and Palestine where the locals are told they can vote for any party except those who do not like Israel or the US.  

I read about Chavez's dumb and anti-democratic comments on Gaddafi and Libya but failed to see the news on how he was propping Gaddafi up. Care to post those links for us?  Is he sending arms during the dispute?  Making plans to send troops? What exactly is he doing except running off at the mouth and damaging his international credibility.

DaveW wrote:

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Thanks for proving my point.

There's revolutions going on halfway around the world and all you can do is make disparaging remarks about "revolutionary utopia" and "revolutionary rhetoric". Democratic revolutions will continue in the Arab world and elsewhere, despite your platitudes drawn straight from the Hillary Clinton briefing book.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Tucson Arazona? Ha, they'd never make it through Texas...

 Remember the Alamo? That lithograph is from the battle of Halls of Montezuma in the US-Mexican war, you know, the one where the US stole half of Mexico (including Arizona) from the Mexicans.

[humor]Just WOW, all I can do is shake my head....LOL

You've got the Texas Revolution of 1835 to 1836 and the Mexican War 1846 to 1848 mixed up into big pile of Canadian goo... The rest is a matter of opinion; you'd find mine VERY biased so we'd be wasting our time even talking about it.[/humor]

Bah, they were the same war, just different campaigns, much as the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1981, "Operation Desert Storm®,"the attack on Iraq in 2003 and "Operation Cast Lead®," in 2009 have been campaigns in the same war.

journalist Peter Beaumont, from Libya, wrote:

Foreign policy - including the increasing threat of military intervention - is being driven by what the media is reporting from Libya, and that is being driven largely by reports from the opposition, some of which are true, some of them dubious. The Libyan government says that. But for once, in the midst of all the regime's evasions, lies and fantastical notions, it may just have a point.

We are being drawn into a crisis where credible information about so much of what is happening is not simply at a premium, it is often impossible to mine from among all the exaggerations and misinformation. If proof of this were necessary, it was provided by the foreign secretary, William Hague, when he announced he had information that suggested Gaddafi had flown to Venezuela.

The reality is that [b]we are rushing to make policy on Libya without knowing precisely what is happening here.[/b] That is not to say we do not know some of the broad details. Yes, people are being killed for demonstrating against the regime. People, too, are being taken from their homes amid a widespread policy of intimidation. Human rights abuses are unquestionably being committed. But it is a question of scale. And there is a requirement for a response that fits the reality of what is happening and does not exacerbate the country's problems, or the region's.

We should admit our ignorance and own it as we try to determine what is happening in Libya. When we have determined the reality of what we are dealing with then perhaps, and only then, can we talk seriously about appropriate measures to respond to it.

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/03/libya-prism-propagan... Guardian[/url]

Sounds as if Fidel Castro was right to counsel against jumping to conclusions.

M. Spector wrote:

DaveW wrote:

As a right -wing social democrat, of course I would disagree, and note it is the far left that denigrates the people's explicit demands for the vote, a constitution and a multi-party system, preferring some vague revolutionary utopia.

Why take them at their word, when you can impose your home-made ideological grid on them? Tahrir square wanted Mubarak out, a new constitution and the end to the state of emergency. So would I. They have had revolutionary rhetoric for decades, and found it a dead-end, ending with Chavez propping up pal Khadafi. Uggh.

Thanks for proving my point.

There's revolutions going on halfway around the world and all you can do is make disparaging remarks about "revolutionary utopia" and "revolutionary rhetoric". Democratic revolutions will continue in the Arab world and elsewhere, despite your platitudes drawn straight from the Hillary Clinton briefing book.

 

I am strongly in favour of their democratic aims and tactics; you can call them "platitudes", but yes, multiparty elections and political transparency are what Tahrir square wanted.

And in Libya, yes, Khadaffi out, NOW. You can hum and haw along with Chavez, calling for negotiations that imply moral equivalence and evoking some non-existent Western plot directing the rebels, but no doubt negotiations between the 42-year dictator and freedom fighters are a non-starter. Tomorrow inchala  they're in Tripoli, bravo...

'Kenya, Niger, Mali Troops Support Ghaddafi'

http://www.afrol.com/articles/37494

"The National Libyan Council, the interim government in 'liberated Libya' is claiming that Kenya, Niger, Mali have sent regular troops to assist the Ghaddafi regime. Council Spokesperson Hafiz Ghoga at a press conference in Benghazi, the main city in 'liberated Libya' made tough accusations against several African states and urged the UN to bomb the 'African mercenaries of Ghaddafi'. The National Libyan Council spokesman further claimed that there was strong evidence that 'the government of Algeria' was supplying the alleged African offensive aginst the people of Libya.

There had earlier been rumours of 'mercenaries' being brought into Libya over the Algerian border in the southwest. The statement by the National Libyan Council, urging the killing of 'African mercenaries' and claiming African governments involvment, are the most extreme anti-African statements made so far in the 'liberated' area of the country. Earlier Afrol News had documented how a wave of racism throughout 'liberated Libya' has caused a witch hunt of sub-Saharan Africans, with arbitrary arrests of African-looking persons and occasional lynch-mobs killing Africans.

'There are outrageous and malicious reports.' The Chadian Ministry of Foreign Affairs is protesting aginst these serious charges, whose consequences 'could be dire for thousands of Chadians living in the territory of Libya, Foreign Minister Mahamat said..."

Fidel wrote:

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23518]NATO’s Inevitable War: The Flood of Lies regarding Libya[/url] by Fidel Castro Ruz

[...]

It's a very good essay on the situation in Libya.

... which is why I posted it on March 3 at #8 above. And NDPP posted the sequel on March 4 at #29 above. But it's all worth a second read.

so's this...

8 British Troops Captured in Libya

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168409.html

Eight British soldiers have been captured in eastern Libya as they escorted a senior diplomat through territory under the control of revolutionary forces. According to a report published by The Sunday Times, the unexpected presence of a British special forces unit along with the diplomat 'angered Libyan opposition figures, who ordered the soldiers to be locked up...'"

ouch, my centre-left position on Libya like Hillary's? .. horrors:

http://tinyurl.com/62fakbk

 for once, she has called things right

  On another note, once liberated, my guess is that a free Libya could "pull a Czechoslovakia":

in the old Russian empire, the Czechs were the most predictable and ideologically reliable at riding shotgun for Brezhnev and the Soviets, speaking out for them, selling guns discreetly when needed etc.;

now, following Vaclav Havel, the independent Czechs have made it their national mission to speak bluntly to the Castro Bros. hegemony, which they do in every human rights and diplomatic forum, esp at the European Union; they've been there, done that, know what it's like to have an immovable hierarchy.

 today in Libya, after 42 years of hearing the same anti-Western anti-imperialist pan-Arab diatribes of the Great Libyan Arab Socialist Jamahiriya -- morning, noon and night -- young people there are likely innoculated to that stuff; the Facebook warriors in Egypt and Tunisia  certainly seem to be.

a free Libya could  be diplomatically unpredictable; let's hope there's  a Mandela in there somewhere; Libya, the Sweden of the Arab League? --Stranger things have happened in modern history.

Interesting times; go freedom fighters, Inchalla you take Sirte this week ....

Mali Tribesmen Join Pro-Gaddafi Forces

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/mali-tribesmen-join-pro-gaddafi-forces

"Tribesmen from the Tuareg community of Africa's northwestern country of Mali have joined the forces supporting embattled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, a media report said. A large number of men from the ethnic group left Mali last week to join pro-Gaddafi forces in Libya, an unnamed official told BBC in Mali. 'They are being paid about $10,000 to join up and then I've heard they are being told they will get $1000 a day to fight,' the official said."

Libyan Warplanes Bomb Oil Rich Towns

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168493.html

"Libyan warplanes have targeted the oil-rich city of Res Lanuf as forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi launched counter-strikes in an attempt to take back strategic towns.."

West's Fear - Gaddafi Wants Civil War

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/168501.html

"I think Obama and the West are going to straddle this situation. Obama is the champion of the status quo. I think what you're looking at is a 'stalemate'. It's becoming more and more like a stalemate right now...and a protracted civil war, and he has the cards all in his favor. And we're not about to step in there and force him out. That's not going to happen.."