Malaysian plane crash part 2

Yeah from what I read the black boxes indicated to would seem they climbed to steep, stalled out, then fell out of the sky... wind sheer from the thunder storm they were in might have played a role as well.

That's quite obtuse. If you had bothered to check the link from our overworked moderator, then you would have seen that it links to the thread on MH-17.

In case anyone missed the excellent documentary on MH-17 by RT, here is a link:

Reflections on MH-17: Published on Jan 16, 2015 The tragedy of MH17 in which 298 people lost their lives, made the conflict in Ukraine real for many other countries. While the international community awaits the outcome of the crash investigation, speculation in the media continues to fuel the blame game. RTD travels far and wide to interview international experts on what has hindered the investigation, what procedures were needed to collect vital evidence and what might have brought down the ill-fated Boeing 777.

Incidentally, RT has now passed 2 Billion views on YouTube. They are the first news network to do so. Amazing.

I suggest retitling the thread to include the word Ukraine, then. Actually, we probably need a Ukraine forum. 

Down the memory hole, I'm afraid. The Western NATO regimes don't want this investigation to report and, with the Ukrainian junta having a veto on publishing the results of the investigation, the report can be indefinitely postponed.

When Banderistan [the state formerly known as Ukraine] is completely de-Nazified, and the new government itself wants the truth to come out, then we'll see the publication of the uncensored investigation.

That's going to be a very long time. 5 billion $US over 20 years paid for a lot of brainwashing. And in Galicia it was fertile soil to begin with.

But a very convincing argument it makes. Looks like Bec's BuK theory is a goner

Yeah sure Bec - whatever Uncle Sam's selling you're always the pitchman it seems. From Assad's poison gas to Yanukovych's Maidan snipers to Russian tanks in Donbass. Anyway  I'm suprised you or your little cohort of America's Word police, didn't already drop this steaming pile. But since you haven't, I will - no doubt your expert analysis will approve it all -  have a party, caw

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982337/Russia-secret-services-l...

What will happen? Well, consider other similar examples from the past...

Pepe Escobar wrote:

it is in any case the nature of these kind of attacks that makes it impossible to identify the perpetrator. In the past sixty years it happened twenty times that an airliner was shot from the air during a military action, usually by accident, by a ground-to-air-rocket or a fighter jet. In all cases things were settled outside the courtroom. Parties were bribed. Even if there was no doubt about the evidence, like in 2001, when Ukraine downed an airliner with a rocket. The political interests always prevailed over the truth. The MH17 case won’t be an exception to this.

The political interests here are for the pre-determined result: blame the "pro-Russian" resistance. Blame Russian President Putin. To hell with the facts.

There's a new book out.

Quote:

MH-17: The Cover-Up Deal: That's the title of the explosive book published yesterday in Holland by journalist Joost Niemoller.

Lots of media coverage, right?

Wrong.

Quote:

Only one of the major Dutch newspapers - De Volkskrant - allowed Niemoller to talk about the book. Here's the translation:

"Three months after the attack, the discontent and frustration regarding MH17 in the Netherlands seems to increase more and more. The anger is aimed at the government, but the government appears to be unable to give satisfying answers about the perpetrator of the crash ...

Book by Dutch Journalist Alleges MH-17 Cover-Up

MH17; Why We Still Don't Know What Happened  - a documentary by Peter Vlemmix

https://youtu.be/Y5kTf6EAMBA

"Much is not what it seems around the tragedy of the Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17, which was shot down above the Ukraine on July 17, 2014. This video challenges the immediate reflex of the establishment media and governments, explaining the true story behind the events and the loopholes in the official investigation." - Peter Vlemmix

An interesting discussion here on the missile from post number 1562:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-79.html

A Dutch journalist's investigations:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32283378

Malaysian Airlines M17: 30 mm Canon Bullet Discovered in MH17 Wreckage

That's exactly the sort of shell that would have been used in an air-to-air attack (i.e., Ukrainian AF) on MH-17.

Doug Woodard wrote:

By the way, do you associate yourself with the video commentor's claim that the UK media is largely Zionist controlled? Are you trying to tell us that the Ukrainian government is both Zionist and Nazi? There seems to be a certain incompatibility here. Please explain.

I guess I should also ask if you support the Harper regime's plan to make criticism of Israel a crime. That would make your question a kind of provocation, wouldn't it?

In any case, as is well known, Ukrainian oligarch and Zionist Igor Kolomoisky has been supporting private death squads, Right Sector and Svoboda militias, as well as the neo-Nazi Azov Battallion. So I guess that meets your criteria?

Unless, of course, criticizing Israel is a crime.

The photo is not video from the MH-17 crash site...

Novaya Gazeta Report on MH17 Shootdown: The Actual Proof

http://thesaker.is/novaya-gazeta-report-on-mh17-shootdown-the-actual-proof/

"Ballistics don't lie and here they paint a relatively clear picture...

MH17 Was Downed By Guided Missile - BUK Manufacturer

http://sptnkne.ws/qKS

"Russia's air defense systems manufacturer Almaz-Antey presented its report on the 2014 flight MH17 disaster at a press conference on Tuesday. Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was downed by a BUK 9M38-M1 guided missile fired from Ukrainian military-controlled territory, engineers from the Russian Almaz-Antey corporation said.

'During the first stage of our investigations, the type of system was established. It was a BUK-M1 system [NATO reporting name SA-11], a 9M38-M1 rocket and a 9M314 warhead,' head engineer Mikhail Malyshev said.

The Russian military uses BUK 9M37 missiles. The missile identified in the damage report was not produced in the Russian Federation since 1999, which is before Almaz-Antey was founded in 2002

As of 2005, Ukraine had 991 BUK9M38-M1 missiles according to the report. The manufacturer's investigation and comparative analysis of shrapnel revealed that missile was fired from an area south of the village of Zaroshenskoye, territory controlled by the Ukrainian military at the time."

BUK Missile Manufacturer on MH17 Shooting - LIVE UPDATES
http://rt.com/news/264205-buk-manufacturer-mh17-ukraine/

And they want to shoot another plane out of the sky to prove what? Maybe they should let the professionals do their jobs. Someone might get hurt - again.

NDPP wrote:

@Bec: IF it was surface to air it could only have been a 9M38M1 missile of the Buk M1 system

IF? LOL

Based on what, becouse the Russians said so? And what does that prove? ...nothing really.

Nobody here said Russia shot the airliner down; the rebels probably did by accident. At the very least it shows Russia gave the rebels (or they had captured) an older version of the missile. 

Malaysia, quite rightly, is sick and tired of the lying BS from the US and its client regimes.*

Eric Zuesse wrote:

Malaysia, frustrated by the refusal of the official international investigation-team to produce any clear evidence yet of whom to blame for the downing of the MH17 Malaysian airliner over the Ukrainian civil-war zone on 17 July 2014, has finally forced the team to request the UN to investigate. They’ve forced the original four nations on the team to accept UN adjudication of any final report.

This will enable a court-proceeding to make the ultimate determination of guilt (upon which judgment penalties and compensation will be assessed), and this court-determination would inevitably allow whatever party is being blamed by the five-member official investigating team, to present its own evidence in the case, so that the court will make the ultimate determination — the official investigating team will not be performing that crucial judgmental function.

Malaysian Pressure Forces The MH17 Investigation to UN Adjudication

Mind you, this all presumes that a report of some kind will be released. The official investigating "team", however, can simply play hot potato with the report and take turns saying , "Nope. I'm against releasing the report," until hell freezes over.

Think of the jackboot Canadian regime with FN land claims. Just so. The different administrations play hot potato with different provincial regimes, back and forth, forever, stalling the settlements for centuries, literally.

So, while this is good news from Malaysia's point of view, it may make no difference to actually getting the real culprits.

* The original 4 members of the investigation team, Belgium, Netherlands, Australia and Ukraine, are all close military allies and political vassals of the US regime, or, in the case of Ukraine, an actual suspect in the downing of MH-17. None of this, of course, in the least bothers the propaganda bullhorns of the western MSM  which continues to "blame Russia", etc., or the resistance endlessly without a shred of evidence to substantiate such bellicose claims.

Supplemental: I re-quote Pepe Escobar from upthread as the quote is still relevant.

Pepe Escobar wrote:

"It is in any case the nature of these kind of attacks that makes it impossible to identify the perpetrator. In the past sixty years it happened twenty times that an airliner was shot from the air during a military action, usually by accident, by a ground-to-air-rocket or a fighter jet. In all cases things were settled outside the courtroom. Parties were bribed. Even if there was no doubt about the evidence, like in 2001, when Ukraine downed an airliner with a rocket. The political interests always prevailed over the truth. The MH17 case won’t be an exception to this."

'Was There A 2nd Plane?' New Footage Shows MH17 Crash Site Minutes After Boeing Downing (and vid)

http://www.rt.com/news/310082-mh17-video-another-aircraft/

"News Corp Australia has obtained a previously unknown video allegedly taken minutes after Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 was downed in Ukraine exactly one year ago. The voices cited by the transcript of the full footage claim a warplane shot down the Boeing."

MH17 A Year Without Truth

https://youtu.be/D_7dlG7qPio

"One year after the tragedy of flight MH17, RTD revisits the investigation into the Boeing 777 crash."

'MH-17 Crash Used by US to Break Russia's Relationship With Europe' - Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.rt.com/op-edge/310103-mh17-russia-tribunal-media/

"The crash of MH-17 has been used to enforce sanctions against Russia and is fundamental to Washington's efforts to break the Russia-Europe relationship, Paul Craig Roberts, former assistant secretary of the US Treasury, tells RT."

Oh, dear. After ikosmos' multiple postings in this thread about how brave little anti-imperialist Malaysia has been standing firm against Western powers in the whole MH-17 investigation, this little tidbit of news. Malaysia has presented a proposal to the UN Security Council for an MH-17 tribunal. But this is being vigorously opposed by Russia. Awkward. 

The basic idea behind the Malaysian plan is to establish an ad hoc court, recognised by the United Nations, to which the prosecutors and detectives involved in a five-nation joint investigation of the MH17 incident would submit their final dossier. The resolution is co-sponsored by Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Ukraine – the countries who, along with Malaysia, are members of the joint investigation team. Several other Western countries, including the United Kingdom, have voiced support for the idea.

Russia has vigorously opposed the proposals, saying that it is outside the UN’s realm of responsibility, and has indicated that it may use its Security Council veto to block such a tribunal...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11752900/Russia-...

Quote:

On July 29, 2014, we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) suggested that the United States Government report publicly what intelligence it actually had relating to the shoot-down lest the incident turn into another paroxysm of blaming Russia without cause. We are still waiting for that report....

In light of the high stakes involved both in terms of our extremely important relationship with Russia as well as in establishing a trustworthy narrative that does credit to the White House, the failure of the Administration to issue a coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible is therefore puzzling. If the United States government knows who carried out the attack on the plane it should produce the evidence. If it does not know, it should say so....

At a minimum, the White House and State Department one year ago displayed unseemly haste in deciding to be first out of the starting gate with a narrative implicating Russia, at least indirectly – a narrative that may not be based on fact. That twelve months have passed and there has been no effort made to either correct or amplify the record is unacceptable....

Mr. President, we believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out, particularly if they are challenging or even opposing the prevailing groupthink narrative. They might well convince you to take steps to deal more forthrightly with the shoot-down of MH-17 and minimize the risk that relations with Russia might degenerate into a replay of the Cold War with the threat of escalation into thermonuclear conflict. In all candor, we suspect that at least some of your advisers fail to appreciate the enormity of that danger.

The courtesy of a reply is requested.

What follows is a very impressive list of US intelligence experts who signed the note.

Obama Should Release MH-17 Intel

Michael Moriarity wrote:

... while the authors have great credibilty with me, it is most unlikely that the administration will respond to them in any way, or that the elite media will even take note of their challenge.

It's still a useful exercise and journalists may enjoy lobbing hand g*enades to State Department mouthpieces about the memorandum. Furthermore, whatever the US MSM echo chamber says, or does, other MSM is not so uniformly tendentious. Presidents do, sometimes, answer questions despite the skillful efforts of their army of handlers.

Besides the Republicans, out of sheer cussed anti-Obama spite, might publish the intelligence should their candidate be elected to POTUS.

Yeah, they're that far gone IMHO. It's charming, a sage once wrote, to see one odious prejudice overcome by another. heh.

Russia Vetoes MH17 Tribunal Draft at UN Security Council (and vid/audio)

http://www.rt.com/news/311109-russia-veto-un-tribunal-mh17/

"Russia has vetoed a draft of a UN Security Council resolution calling for an international tribunal on the crash of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight over eastern Ukraine last July and classifying the plane's downing as a threat to peace and security. 11 UNSC members voted in support of the Malaysian-proposed draft resolution, with Angola, Venezuela, and China abstaining...Russia applied its veto right as a permanent UNSC member.

The Russian envoy also stressed Malaysia and its backers submitted the resolution already knowing that it would be vetoed. 'This in our view indicates the fact that political purposes were more important for them than practical objectives. This of course is regrettable, he said.'

MH17 Crash Tribunal Would 'Extend Dutch-Led Investigation Indefinitely' (and audio)

http://www.rt.com/op-edge/311066-airplane-investigation-un-tribunal/

"Why set up a tribunal or even talk about setting up a tribunal before we know what the results of the international investigation are? It is a case of putting the cart before the horse.  The only purpose presumably would be to make a kind of political point, or rather to make a propaganda point, because that's what it would amount to.

It would be a way of showing that Russia is obstructing the setting up of the enquiry and certain people in the West, in the media, and Western governments would try to spin that  to mean what they want it to mean..."

The MH-17 Pilot's Corpse: More on the Cover-Up  - by Eric Zuesse (and vid)

http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/the-mh17-pilots-corpse-more-on-the-c...

"It might be the decisive piece of evidence proving who, what, how and why the MH17 Malaysian airliner over the conflict zone in Ukraine on 17 July 2014 was shot down, but the pilot's corpse has been hidden even from the people who have the most right to see it. This cover-up was revealed when Russian TV sent reporters last month to interview the pilot's family."

The Dutch-Ukrainian MH17 Investigation is an Injustice to All the Relatives of the 298 Victims

http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/08/mh-17-investigation-is-injustice-to-...

"Peter Iskola, Finnish legal expert and judge says the MH-17 investigation is a legal farce."