why did strategic voting turn into voting Liberal?

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Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

And while I can name a number of issues with them and their campaign I think they're right to not jump to conclusions - like the NDP appear to be doing  - as to why they lost.

But the NDP has already lost nearly four days of strategic planning.  What, you think they stand any kind of chance if they wait to choose a new leader and a new stragegy and get campaigning on MONDAY?

What?

What I'm saying is people keep coming out and blaming strategic voting for the NDP loss. There was a lot more too it than just that. More serious discussions will likley happen but if people are closing their minds and simply say that the loss was due to strategic voting then they'll have trouble making gains moving forward. 

Newfoundlander_Labradorian wrote:

What?

What I'm saying is people keep coming out and blaming strategic voting for the NDP loss. There was a lot more too it than just that. More serious discussions will likley happen but if people are closing their minds and simply say that the loss was due to strategic voting then they'll have trouble making gains moving forward. 

You're absolutely correct. This logic applies to a few other scapegoats the NDP partisans like too, like:

-mainstream media

-stupid voters (getting fooled by dem fiberals/liebrals again)

-stupid voters (getting fooled by empty-suit Trudeau, clearly a man-child who's lacks any intellect at all and is totally not-ready)

The good news, though, is that I think even some of the fierce NDP partisans on this board do understand that the results of this election were driven, at least in part, by the campaign that was run by the NDP and not these other factors. I was quite disappoined by Craig Scott's analysis, what with him being an MP he should know better.

The only big myth I still see being floated around here by basically all the NDP partisans who have been active since the election is the belief that the NDP earned by it's own merits the 31% of the vote and 100+ seats it won in 2011. The 2011 NDP had good merit, to be sure, but one strong campaign against a weak opposition (the Ignatieff liberals) does not a commited base make.

The 2015 NDP campaign was at least as bad as the 2011 Liberal campaign, and Trudeau's campaign was comparable to Jack Layton's campaign in 2011. When you consider the historical relative strength of the parties, if the NDP hadn't gone into this election with a clear lead it would have been even worse for them.

The Liberals were almost wiped out after two consecutive bad campaigns. The NDP, a historically weaker party, cannot afford to make that mistake.

Pondering wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

but trudeau said he will take a really long look at the TPP.  Give him a chance, he just hasnt read it yet..how can he possibly know whats in it..its not like its been released. maybe he will really hate it and tear it apart..

He won't rip it up unless he is convinced that it is the right thing to do and/or what the majority of Canadians want.

From watching the National Lisa Raitt and Megan Leslie were good friends even though one was a Conservative and the other NDP and both presumably passionate supporters of their own parties.

Apparently, Megan did not think that Lisa was a minion of the devil.

That is bull Pondering! Trudeau has already put the whip on it! He has also said there will be no free vote on it. Seriously, what part of the Corproate Rights proviisions being bad is hard to understand?

I'm going back to the last time you insulted me and making the same poiint. If the Big Pharama provisions remain, it would result in our medical system becoming unsustaniable, so says people like Jim Stafford, Paul Krugman, and Joeseph Stiglitz. You've heard of them I persume?

If my wife had gotten sick under the regime that the TPP would impose, I'd be unable to care for her and she would die sooner, and in greater pain and misery than medically inevitable. Now, that may not be a big deal to you, or Junior, but its a big deal to me! And before you go after me playing politics, you brought up at leat twice the issue of you and your husband's pension and how you were screwed by the Quebec government. If you can talk about real life impact, so can I!

So don't tell me that I can't talk with a first hand expeerinece about how Junior's solely polical decisionis woudl affect me and my dear, departed wife (blesed be her memory)!

And as to Junior doing what people want, people didn't vote for Junior because of what he promsied, but because he LIED about the NDP and confsued the masses. That is what happened. And you are wrong about how people are reacting to NAFTA. Just becauser YOU don't read anything about it, or experience it apparentlly, doesn't mean others haven't and simply do not in any way share your apparently glowing opinon of NAFTA.

This is not a game! Junior's decisons will impact the lives of thousands, and at a minimum appreciably affect their qualilty of life if not potentially under the right set of circumstances entirely possible, kill some of them.

You Libs won't take responsiblity for anything. Everthing in isolation for you. You don't seem to be able to serparate pragmatic from morall. As a general ruel, LPC partisans seem to lack the moral center that is very noticeable in New Dems and Tories. That's what make you guys so damn dangerous, and why our quality of life has declined.

I related how my wife would have been affected, and your remark back was so flipant, and unfeeling. You couldn't leave it like that, you not only had to disagree, you had to make sure you scored policial points. And you hurt me terribly!

That is not what i am doing; prople's lives will  be affected in a very real way by acceptane of the TPP. The jig is up, the game is afoot, Junior is left lose running around in the Candy store, and there is a real llikihood he will punish Canadians for voting for him unaware, with hubristic ontuseness. As I said, Lincoln said you can fool most of the people some of the time.

n Canada some of the time appears to have been at least 148 years so far!

Arthur Cramer wrote:

You Libs won't take responsiblity for anything. Everthing in isolation for you. You don't seem to be able to serparate pragmatic from morall. As a general ruel, LPC partisans seem to lack the moral center that is very noticeable in New Dems and Tories. That's what make you guys so damn dangerous, and why our quality of life has declined.

...
That is not what i am doing; prople's lives will  be affected in a very real way by acceptane of the TPP. The jig is up, the game is afoot, Junior is left lose running around in the Candy store, and there is a real llikihood he will punish Canadians for voting for him unaware, with hubristic ontuseness. As I said, Lincoln said you can fool most of the people some of the time.

n Canada some of the time appears to have been at least 148 years so far!

Is it your contention that the majority of Canadians are currently against trade deals such as NAFTA, TPP and CETA? If that is so, why didn't the NDP run on that? It would be the obvious policy to differenciate themselves from the Liberals and Conservatives. It's right up there with environmental protection and the switch to a green economy. Wait, that's the Leap manifesto isn't it?

https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/

A sane view on the thread topic from Michael Hollett at Now Magazine:

I could complain about how a desperate rush to the strategic voting that so pains me almost wiped out the NDP.

But had the Dippers been seen as the party of change and managed to hold on to their front-runner status, strategic voting would have served them instead of the Liberals. All things being equal, they fell to third in the polls, and no amount of reminding voters that they were closer in seats than the Libs to toppling the Cons would change that. (emphasis added)

Hopefully to be of only academic interest in future with a new electoral system in place.

Please dippers, keep thinking you lost because of strategic voting. Yeah, that's it. Go ahead and keep Mulcair and run the same campaign in 2019, it was just the stupid voters who didn't know their MP was already an NDP.

You lost because we were better, we lost in 2011 because our leader was a dumpster fire and we ran a terrible campaign. And Jack Layton (God rest his soul) was a used car salesman of a campaigner.

Here in Nova Scotia we saw first hand what a disaster NDP governments always are and gave Leslie and Stoffer the boot they so richly deserved. I gotta hand it to Leslie though, that woman could sell ice to Esimos, she had so many people fooled into thinking she was a good MP. Yeah, good MPs actually, yunno get stuff done. Something Andy Fillmore will surpass her in about 17 minutes after he's sworn in. The NDP are great at BSing people into thinking they're good at governing, but then when people actually experience them governing or in the case of the Quebec NDP in 2011 being complete wastes of space they come back where they belong, to the Liberals. In 2011 Quebeckers could have taken their ballots and flushed them down the toilet and they would have gotten exactly the same result as they got with the NDP.

And now that we're going to bring in ranked ballot (Sorry, no PR I'm afraid, we won and you lost so you don't get your way) you can look forward to 2019, as you'll be looking back at 2015 being the "good old days" when you still had seats in Parliament.

HisHighness wrote:

I gotta hand it to Leslie though, that woman could sell ice to Esimos, she had so many people fooled into thinking she was a good MP.

I've asked for this troll to be banned for his (obviously a "he") disrespectful racist language. I'm also asking babblers not to respond to his provocations until such time as he can be heaved.

Thanks.

You can spin this new voters things any way you want. But you can't do it without addressing the question of the decietful and dishonest campaing run by the Libs This was Obama/Trdueaumaina. Its OBVIOUS the Libs think these are their votes permanently. This is not the case. The Libs will govern as they always do, they Lie. The voters will figure this out, and throw the rascal out. Trudeau is a 1 term PM.

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

You Libs won't take responsiblity for anything. Everthing in isolation for you. You don't seem to be able to serparate pragmatic from morall. As a general ruel, LPC partisans seem to lack the moral center that is very noticeable in New Dems and Tories. That's what make you guys so damn dangerous, and why our quality of life has declined.

...
That is not what i am doing; prople's lives will  be affected in a very real way by acceptane of the TPP. The jig is up, the game is afoot, Junior is left lose running around in the Candy store, and there is a real llikihood he will punish Canadians for voting for him unaware, with hubristic ontuseness. As I said, Lincoln said you can fool most of the people some of the time.

n Canada some of the time appears to have been at least 148 years so far!

Is it your contention that the majority of Canadians are currently against trade deals such as NAFTA, TPP and CETA? If that is so, why didn't the NDP run on that? It would be the obvious policy to differenciate themselves from the Liberals and Conservatives. It's right up there with environmental protection and the switch to a green economy. Wait, that's the Leap manifesto isn't it?

https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/

 

Ponderng, yeah, yeah, yeah. Snark as always. I'm not wasting my time replying to you. Its not worth it. So, whatever, "Pondering".

"Had the NDP won their centrist position would have been cemented. Like Harper's social conservatives, the more progressive arm of the party would have been silenced."

Apologies for going back on this thread...but this matter is too important not to consider!

The suggestion is of course that with the Party in defeat, the way now is open for potential changes, more radical changes!

This suggestion must be challenged.....the Party has been evolving toward their mushy middle far too long, with entrenched people and finances, well in control! Likewise the Greens so long entrenched in their mushy climate change rhetoric and technology fix!

No anyone serious keen on some change in direction in this country, now must consider a third option!

But by force of necessity, built on a civil society movement, based on such principles of regional self reliance and autonomy, anti corporatocracy, pro populist democracy, anti bankster finance parasite capitalism (prison fro the banksters!) and anti fascist anti imperialist!

Such an option must be clear and visionary. No tolerance for corruption and compromise!

It can succeed, only by first building such a movement! 

I guess because the derogatory term "Esimos" is misspelled?

That is one of the most vicious posts I've read here in a long time.

MegB wrote:

HisHighness wrote:

Please dippers, keep thinking you lost because of strategic voting. Yeah, that's it. Go ahead and keep Mulcair and run the same campaign in 2019, it was just the stupid voters who didn't know their MP was already an NDP.

You lost because we were better, we lost in 2011 because our leader was a dumpster fire and we ran a terrible campaign. And Jack Layton (God rest his soul) was a used car salesman of a campaigner.

Here in Nova Scotia we saw first hand what a disaster NDP governments always are and gave Leslie and Stoffer the boot they so richly deserved. I gotta hand it to Leslie though, that woman could sell ice to Esimos, she had so many people fooled into thinking she was a good MP. Yeah, good MPs actually, yunno get stuff done. Something Andy Fillmore will surpass her in about 17 minutes after he's sworn in. The NDP are great at BSing people into thinking they're good at governing, but then when people actually experience them governing or in the case of the Quebec NDP in 2011 being complete wastes of space they come back where they belong, to the Liberals. In 2011 Quebeckers could have taken their ballots and flushed them down the toilet and they would have gotten exactly the same result as they got with the NDP.

And now that we're going to bring in ranked ballot (Sorry, no PR I'm afraid, we won and you lost so you don't get your way) you can look forward to 2019, as you'll be looking back at 2015 being the "good old days" when you still had seats in Parliament.

This is a nasty piece of work. I don't have grounds to ban you but you're on notice.

From the National Post

Quote:

As election day approached, in fact, canvassers for the NDP in Toronto reported hearing eerily similar messages at the doors: We like you, they were told, but we see the Liberals as the best way to get rid of Stephen Harper.

http://news.nationalpost.com/features/the-liberal-resurrection#sthash.Jb...

I took offence at the bigoted reference to Inuit, but the rest of HIsHighness' post just sounded like what I typically hear from Liberals in pubs. 

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Sometimes autocratic mods can come in handy.

I can't endorse this in every context, but I've heard it suggested that the most effective and efficient form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.

lol

"JT has made me feel hopeful instead of mostly shameful..."

https://youtu.be/OTvO_SeTvrU

And now...?

settle down cody he's not playing favourites, he hates the Liberals and NDP equally.

Hate Libs more as they have power - ndp only a pale, inept imitation anyway. Mickey-mouseland politics.

KarlL wrote:

Mulcair's support was falling/Trudeau's was rising even before the niqab issue bit, especially in Ontario and Atlantic, where the gap widened around September 21 and did not converge again.  Even in Quebec, Mulcair was already sliding from October 19 onward.

See: http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20151018%20Ballot%20TrackingE...

What the Niqab did was shatter the loose association of sovereigntists and federalists, progressives and even some bleus in QC, who had come together to vote for Jack Layton in 2011.  

And, it seems, put Harper beyond the pale for a lot of urban and suburban voters across Canada as he kept playing on the niqab and doubled down with the public service and snitch-line stuff.

I am not saying that the NDP campaign was a lost cause pre-niqab but it was losing.

It may be comforting to blame someone else's dastardly move but it was already underway.

 

 

KarlL wrote:

KarlL wrote:

Mulcair's support was falling/Trudeau's was rising even before the niqab issue bit, especially in Ontario and Atlantic, where the gap widened around September 21 and did not converge again.  Even in Quebec, Mulcair was already sliding from October 19 onward.

See: http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20151018%20Ballot%20TrackingE...

What the Niqab did was shatter the loose association of sovereigntists and federalists, progressives and even some bleus in QC, who had come together to vote for Jack Layton in 2011.  

And, it seems, put Harper beyond the pale for a lot of urban and suburban voters across Canada as he kept playing on the niqab and doubled down with the public service and snitch-line stuff.

I am not saying that the NDP campaign was a lost cause pre-niqab but it was losing.

It may be comforting to blame someone else's dastardly move but it was already underway.

 

 

NOPE! There is NO question that Mulcair's principled Niqab stand in the face of sure electoral damage, something Junior would have best waffled on if the shoe had been on the other foot, is the main explanation for why the Libs won. No question! Spin all you want Karl.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Are "pubs" like a Tim Horton's, but with ale?

I believe that would be Homer Simpson's vision of heaven.

No, not always.

It depends on the riding.

Progressive voters have chosen the NDP in certain provinces and certain ridings.

You can see that in a few places in this election, such as Vancouver Island, where the NDP was chosen as the main vehicle to wipe the Cons off of there.

Plus, Quebecers voted for the NDP in 2011 as the best way of taking down the BQ.