Talking about race with white people

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But if people are going to act like there has been, well I think it is fair to ask what is more important, our white feelings

That was kind of my point in #437.  Are you trying to sneak our, or my, feelings into this?

Don't declare that this is really about whitey's feelings, then say "who said it's about whitey's feelings????" if it was you.

Here we have more activists behaving badly. It's not to difficult to find events like these on youtube - conservative commentator shows up with a camera and the protesters immediately start acting as though the camera is some kind of threat. Since this behaviour is clearly uncalled for, I propose that people interested in dissuading this kind of activity show up at protests with a camera and just start filming - maybe even trolling a little. Bonus points if you get punched by a "peaceful" protester for insisting on your absolute right to film in public.

[youtube]SUm4lbiAlwM[/youtube]

[youtube]XWnOes3wQiM[/youtube]

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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On another note, how does this board feel about releasing pictures and names of some of these "activists behaving badly?" I have seen some news outlets bluring their faces and otherwise going out of their way to avert what some of these students might describe as a "white supremacist backlash." But I want their identities easily discoverable by those who might want to do that kind of homework.

What if you don't?  Those who might want to do that kind of homework don't need your help.  And more to the point, this isn't about a handful of individuals, so there's no good reason to drop all the scorn at their feet.

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If anyone does anything objectionable, put their face out there. The internet will take care of the rest.

I somewhat agree with you about how loopy this seems to have become, but don't try to be more loopy, or you've lost.  Let those you disagree with be more loopy -- they will.

I AM LOOPY SOMETIMES.

I take your point Magoo, I'm just shitposting.

...I should add, it has been a bit hard not to, considering how much this thread has been an example of those attitudes and fancy dancing.

(Edit)

Speaking of which, I just took a trip down memory lane to the beginning of this five year old thread. You might want to check it out yourselves if you are wanting to pin me for bringing something in that does not belong here.

When I have a bit more time I'll go back to page 1 and read through the threads entirity.

In the present though Smith you seem fixated on white people complaining about their feelings being hurt, I don't see us really fighting that battle?  I mean I could say none of this hurt my feeling but then I expect a response would likely be 'thats because of your privilage'- okay.

But is your opinion simply white peoples feelings aren't important when talking about race? Or not as important as a POC's feelings? 

Is suggesting everyones feelings are important the same blasphemy as saying all lives matter?

I think one on hand you have people who want everyone to matter, be respected and treated as equals (me). That's how they see healing and overcoming racism.

On the other hand you have people whom believe in doing it detracts from the suffering caused by racism. What's the end state of that train of thought?

Except, kropotkin, I said precisely what imagined slight I was talking about. The one where people were told to shut up and stay silent.

Didn't happen.

In fact you are the only person here who expressed personal hurt feelings. I do think you are missing the point, but did I mock you in any way, as per Magoo's bit of satire?

I didn't say that I am the only white person that gets it, or that I am more enlightened, as someone else here said. I said, in fact, that we DON'T understand what the people who experience systemic discrimination go through. I said that our discomfort around this is not relevant when it comes to the more important problem of fighting racism. Anyone here think otherwise?

As for the rest of this, if anyone imagines I am making this up, did you even bother to read the article I posted quite some time ago?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-t...

If not, then maybe you should start by doing that, then we can have a conversation.  I get that it might make you uncomfortable, but sorry, I am am as white as the rest of you, and the fact our discomfort means nothing compared to people who are being arrested , attacked and killed because of who they are is atually something I have every right to point out.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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Is suggesting everyones feelings are important the same blasphemy as saying all lives matter?

Well, there's a reasonable reason why "all lives matter" isn't actually better than, or more noble than, black lives matter.  White lives don't seem to have much need to assert their importance, at least in the context of law enforcement.  Police literally seem to KNOW that white lives matter.

Ah but you're assuming I was refering specifically to white people claiming 'all lives matter'. (I wasn't).  Hand over my heart I can say in my experience (that is debating on line)  people of colour (who identified as other than black) took as much issue with BLM as white. In those causes the counter-argument often seemed to be "Well blacks suffered and suffer more". It really struck me as a competition.

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  But if you're a firefighter, you go to where the fires are, right, rather than to where they aren't?

I just had a firefighter come to my door to ask to inspect the firealarms in the house.

Well no, it shouldn't take that much time. If someone here has been told to shut up and be silent (as per the trope you have pulled out a few times) show us where.

And in response to your trope about ridiculing people's feelings (which is what I was refering to), no that didn't happen either.

If you just disagree with something (not sure what you mean), again, maybe read that article and we can talk about it. But if you are imagining that white lack of understanding and resorting to defensiveness and distraction when it comes to racism is something I just made up, no I didn't.

Again, check out the article I have posted twice now. Or go back to the first post of this thread, and work your way down from there. I know we have kind of gotten hijacked, but it didn't start out that way.

Not sure what question you mean paladin, but if it is about white people getting uncomfortable or obstructionist when confronted with issues of racism and that article didn't clarify it I am not sure how I can.

But feel free to ask again directly and I'll tell you what I think about it.

Here's the quote I posted from that article back at #366:

“They’ve never had to think about what it means, in power terms, to be white, so any time they’re vaguely reminded of this fact, they interpret it as an affront. Their eyes glaze over in boredom or widen in indignation. Their mouths start twitching as they get defensive. Their throats open up as they try to interrupt, itching to talk over you but not to really listen, because they need to let you know that you’ve got it wrong.

“The journey towards understanding structural racism still requires people of colour to prioritise white feelings.

You might not agree, but I hope it is clear enough.

And  to recap what we have covered over the past couple of pages, I am talking about white people assuming that a request that they might want to listen more is an order to shut up.

Or that observations like the one above don't apply to them, therefore it is wrong, or offensive, or racist

Or challenging that observed behaviour with questions like if a white person is still wrong if reading the dictionary, of it their feelings are less important than non whites, which are fine enough questions by themselves, but really beside the point.

Or posting numerous very unflattering examples of people making charges of discrimination.

Or claiming that arguments are not being met, or that it is a question of bad reasoning.

And to answer your question again, no. I did not say that white people's feelings matter less than anyone else's. I just said that white people's feelings are less important than confronting systemic racism. Why do I specify white people? Because we are the ones who tend to be the most blind about it, and get bent out of shape about it most often.

And non-whites experience racism all the time, and can't turn a blind eye to it like we can.

And again, if it doesn't apply to you, well that's good, but it doesn't make the observation wrong.

I don't know where fee-fee's got brought into this. The problem I have is that what initially seem like perfectly valid ideas, such as "white people don't experience structural racism and therefore should listen more to those who do when they're discussing structural racism" are used as a carte blanche by malicious actors such as Evergreen College professor, Naima Lowe. Then so-called "white allies" will arrive to provide cover for the malicious actors by saying such things as Smith has been saying. "It's not about your white feelings you know." 

The net effect of this is to provide cover for bad actors to say and do almost anything they want in the name of anti-oppression.

If this is actually a problem, it means that there is something wrong with the original logic, if it can be so easily exploited by bad actors. The truth is people lie and do other bad things, and a dictum that some people must be "listened to and believed" when speaking of some things, actually encourages people to lie more.

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That's the most vile speech I've heard in a long time.

It's problematic because it proves absolutely zero about the validity of these complaints of racism. But of course it follows in a long tradition of blaming victims of discrimination because they aren't perfectly well behaved or dare to get angry about it.

Another classic white tactic of distracting from the root problem, if you don't mind my saying so.

But to take this most recent example at 477, I might not agree with everything Lowe says, but at least she has a good reason to be angry because this does concern people being murdered because of their race.

I know Boze is all cool and logical at the moment, but if that is the vilest speech he has seen lately I wonder what his excuse was a couple of pages back. Hell hath no fury like a white guy who imagines he is scorned, I guess.

As it happens Magoo, I was talking more about Boze's videos. But since you don't want to talk about anything other than that one example, you might be right that him losing his job was overkill for walking out of a meeting. 

Are we done? as in, done, done. or are you going to trot it out again in a post or two?

(I haven't bothered to do an inventory of how many times you have referenced that one incident, but I am curious)

And if we are, does it mean there is no racism on that campus? That the people who were trying to raise awareness of it should not have done so? Or that systemic racism does not exist? Or that them being overzealous about it (for heaven's sake. A white guy had to suffer unfair consequences, after all)  cancels it out?

No Magoo. You already tried that at #417. This isn't the poor white guy lost his job thread, and no I am not going to join your campaign to fight the injustices of overzealous protesters.

Go start another thread if you want. I know saying so again is not going to stop it, but as far as I am concerned this whole line is just distraction. Though as a fine old tradition from the days when people used to sit in front of the TV and mock rioters for burning down their neighbourhoods, it is hardly surprising, and a classic example of the sort of thing white people do all the time to avoid talking about racism.

Of course we'd listen if they were just polite about it and behaved themselves.

"I might still bring it up" - that made me laugh.

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This isn't the poor white guy lost his job thread, and no I am not going to join your campaign to fight the injustices of overzealous protesters.

I can't really conscript you into such a war.  But have another giggle, because I still might bring it up, at least until and unless you can tell me why anyone should lose their job for excusing themself from a meeting early.

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Of course we'd listen if they were just polite about it and behaved themselves.

They don't even need to be polite.  Just tell me why it had to happen!  Feel free to use the fuck-word!  Not a problem!  We're all intelligent adults here, and we can differentiate between cussing and illogic.

Oh right. It's illogical.

Well here's what the president of Ryerson had to say about their demands:

Levy said the group is within its rights to protest.

“Do I think the campus is perfect? Absolutely not … when there are these types of protests and movements, many times they make us take a harder and a better look at things,” he said.

“They can protest higher fees, they can do all that. It’s all legitimate … I would rather have a society that feels they can take on these issues and push the administration … for change, than to say you’re not allowed,” Levy said.

http://ryersonian.ca/black-coalition-calls-for-removal-of-egerton-ryerso...

Calling for increased access to education seems fair to me, as well as increasing the number of black staff and faculty.

I probably wouldn't be onside with the call to remove that statue, but I do appreciate their pointing out Ryrerson's links to the residential school system.

I don't mind. You can be the bigger man.

The incident happened Oct 27. Parada resigned Nov 16. The Nov 25 article concerns demands that were delivered  to Levy on Nov 18.

But in fact, I wasn't even talking about that. My point was that for the most part the demands made by the students made a good deal of sense. More importantly, the problems they expressed about being on campus seemed to make sense too, contrary to the notion that they were "illogical". That is the claim of yours that I am addressing.

You know, we have a parallel situation here in SK right now with our recent budget cuts - dismantling STC, ending the hearing aid program, cuts to school boards, taking tens of millions of dollars of taxes in lieu from our cities. Rolling our health regions under one top-controlled board.

But still there are some who only want to talk about one guy who leaned on the hood of a car at the Premier's dinner.

wrong thread

Mr. Magoo wrote:

 

As I understand it, an administrator left a meeting early.  Can you fill me in on the rest? 

I would like to know too. I've seen a few references about an admin walking out but I haven't found anything online.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Medical clinic, Mississauga:

“There’s nobody who’s Canadian? Nobody who was born here?”

“Being white in this country, I should just shoot myself.”

“My kid is part-not white, so can we get someone to see him who at least speaks English?

The good news part of the story is the other people finally calling her out on it.

https://news.vice.com/story/woman-goes-on-racist-tirade-demanding-a-whit...

 

I did manage to catch this. It made me think of times when I've been in a similar situation.  While dealing with Rogers cell phone reps I've had to ask for english speaking people and have hung up and called back to try and find one. Also I've (politely) asked for a doctor who spoke better english as the one I was dealing with I couldn't understand (and I'm skilled at decyphering French and Newfie).

Bit of a harsh example, but in its subtler forms it has research to back it up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ruchikatulshyan/2014/06/13/have-a-foreign-s...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/how-an-ethnic...

Sorry, but this isn't kumbayaland yet, and yes it is real.

More important than the racist outburst though, is what I mentioned: the person who stepped in. Also, the person at the end of the article who expressed what it felt like to hear that.

Well someone is responsible for these numbers. And while I don't think the takeaway should be tarring everyone with the same brush, I do think reacting with "not all white people" is missing the point. White people aren't the ones being hurt here, so why does that even matter. The point is seeing racism, especially shockingly casual racism, as a real thing.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hate-crimes-muslims-statscan-1.4158042

I think I have been saying all along that not all white people display this kind of overt racism. What is a lot more common though, is getting really defensive and refusing to listen when it is pointed out. Not all that different than a lot of men are when it comes to sexism.

I don't see anything from a non-white perspective, k.

I just accept that non-white people, women, and others on the receiving end of discrimination have a much different experience than we do.

And that getting all defensive about it does nothing to help change that situation for the better.

And you sure don't have to look far to see people in denial of it.  Something that just happened to cross my FB feed today. Someone posted a link to Kent Monkman's recent series of paintings. This one:

The very first response?

That should help perpetuate resentment and hate against non-Aboriginals.

I won't bother sharing what the person wrote afterwards. Just a regular conversation on our national holiday celebrating Indigenous people.  I'd like to keep the focus more on the thousands of people who were in the march this morning. But that other reality is never far away, even if we can pretend it is.

Paladin, this thread is actually about white people and racism. It is in the title. A big part of that is anger, denial, and not wanting to talk about it.

And we have been posting things about how to combat racism. Thing is, once it moves from other people's actions to things that we can do personally (like listening to others) people don't seem to like it very much.

As for making this about me pretending to be more enlightened, I'm not the person implying that I am not influenced personally by racism, or that I get to just pick and choose what is valid about others' experience of it.

Anyway, politicians playing to the noble white worker:

http://prospect.org/article/why-white-worker-theme-harmful