Queen of Chaos, the misadventures of Hillary Clinton

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I think the question is, would Donald Trump do something different. Would he, for instance, be more circumspect about using USA military around the world?

That would depend on whether an outright ban on Muslims ends terrorism.  To his credit, he's willing to give the non-violent solution a chance.

Trump doesn't agree that you can't outright ban Muslims. He's also said he will send Muslims out of the country in addition to the Mexicans. Whether that's legal or constitutional is irrelevant to him.

Thuggish Ukrainian politics, state-sponsored terrorism foiled, and how the Kiev regime is cheering for Clinton.

Ukraine’s ‘October Surprise’ – may be coming in September

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And certainly Hillary Clinton is ready, willing, and able to use a looming Ukrainian “crisis” to claw her way to the White House – even if she has to risk a nuclear showdown with the Russians. After all, what’s the mere prospect of World War III compared to the supreme importance of installing the First Woman President in the Oval Office?

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My comment was more about the meaning of 'an outright ban'. Magoo offered it as the 'non-violent' solution (which I think was a bit facetious), but I'm not so sure Trump meant it in a 'non-violent' way.

I was definitely being facetious.  But the very fact that we're discussing this suggests to me that there may very well be some subtle differences between Trump and Clinton -- e.g. one wants to build a huge wall to keep the brown people out and the other doesn't -- and it's always possible that these small differences may influence some voters.

Rev P - Magoo is often facetious. It's how he rolls. ;)

That said, though, I meant "can't" in the sense that the US constitution would not support it.

As kropotkin points out, there is a historical precedent for doing such a thing anyway. So in that sense, yes it could happen. But not without violating the constitution, which is generally a bad thing.

Funny how Trump figures the constitution is malleable on this point, but not the 2nd amendment. (not funny ha ha)

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Follow the words of Jesus. Christians ignore it to their own peril. It really is that simple.

Jesus says quite a lot of things in the gospels. Which particular words of his are you referring to?

Timebandit wrote:

The problem is, we don't actually know what he said*. Nothing was recorded until he was dead about 30 years. And I'm loath to impose religious interpretation on matters of government. So I'm figuring the Jesus bit is a Very Bad Idea.

*Or if he actually existed. Which would kind of preclude him saying anything at all.

Yes, I know this, which is why I specified "in the gospels", which may be works of fiction, but nonetheless do contain the words commonly attributed to Jesus.

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Follow the words of Jesus. Christians ignore it to their own peril. It really is that simple.

I'm relieved it's only Christians who potentially are imperilled if they ignore these words. I'm terrible at following directives exactly to the letter.

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You know, the idea of Jesus returning from the dead to act as proofreader

It's probably even more humble than when he was a carpenter.  Don't carpenters earn, like, $25/hour?

Why Foreign Gov'ts Seem Reluctant To Expose Clintons' Alleged Fraud

https://sptnkne.ws/fdZP

"So far governments that could act to investigate [including donor Canada] and prosecute evident wrongdoing haven't yet seen fit to act..."

What It Will Finally Take To Put Hillary Clinton Behind Bars

https://youtu.be/WjLoqu_X540

"Charles Ortel on the Clinton criminal charity conspiracy and fraud machine. Ortel, has called the Clintons the 'Bonnie and Clyde' of charity fraud who make Bernie Madoff look like a piker."

NDPP wrote:

Why Foreign Gov'ts Seem Reluctant To Expose Clintons' Alleged Fraud

https://sptnkne.ws/fdZP

"So far governments that could act to investigate [including donor Canada] and prosecute evident wrongdoing haven't yet seen fit to act..."

 

What It Will Finally Take To Put Hillary Clinton Behind Bars

https://youtu.be/WjLoqu_X540

"Charles Ortel on the Clinton criminal charity conspiracy and fraud machine. Ortel, has called the Clintons the 'Bonnie and Clyde' of charity fraud who make Bernie Madoff look like a piker."

With all this diversionary chatter about a former presidential candidate, it seems that Trump and his supporters are becoming more and more frightened by the day about what the legal investigations into his conduct might end up finding!

Could Trump try to fire the people who are legally investigating his conduct?

My Goal:  To see the democratic party does not go with another centrist corporistists democratic and howfully we NDP'ers vote more leftist candiate.

How to achieve this : Destroying the credibilty of centrist who lost the last election.  Going after Mulcair has no poticial value any more so I wish him the best in political retirement.  But bringing Hillary and the DNC down another political peg is usful to because can be used to be proxy for a warning story for Canadian political parties of the danger centrist politics.  For those wondering why I have so tough politically on DNC and lesser part Hillary this the reason. 

Realistic result.  To average US voter is my prospects are zero.  But maybe I able swing a few NDP voters reading rabble to see that centristism is a dirty world.  I understand the DNC and Hillary do not make a perfect proxy for Canadian politics but there is potential overlap.  

I understand that the election is over but DNC and Hillary are fortresses of corportist policy.  In a word they are relevant unlike Muclair.  One last thing is a critism of Dem's policy is differnet then some sort witch hunt of Hillary that Trump has been using try to defect some of the critism that Trump is facing.  I was accused of being a trump supporter before the election but merely I was conviced the Hillary would lose.  In no way my critism DEMS a defacto sign I support trump policy in anyway.

Let me ask VOD can I voice critism of the NDP or DEMS from the left.  Believe or not there are people who very critical of the NDP (Horwath,Muclair) from the left.   You propose a direct link to votes is not there, attacking the standard bearers of left is counter produictive(Is that fair representation of your thoughts).  

Let do a case study, Horwath's last crusade to out do the liberals in Ontario.  The ONDP picked up a few seats and called it day.  But lets dig a little deeper into the period of history.  This election respresented the best opportuinty for the ONDP to take power in a generation.  The liberals had a government record of incomptence and scandal but they won again.  And most importanly many years of liberal rule should have a tiring effect of the voters, "its time for change".  I dont think you can estmiate the weakness of Mr. Hudak platfrom, first he was totally ineffective as politican(he had no spark).  Now to the famous platfrom, cut 100,000 civil servants jobs this was barabarians at the gate stuff.  And if I remember correctly the promise 1 million new jobs, which out to be really 1 000 000 man hours of work.  

The liberals brain trust was brilliant, it branded Hudak as a barbarian trying destroy the civil service.  Plus off course he will eat your first born, media campagin against the CONS was over the top.  I was politically awaken about 20 years since and form that time I never witness hurricane of negative branding agaisnt the CONS that LIBS did on Hudak.  Effectviely the Liberals destroyed the Hudak as political threat in the election.  

That just left the ONDP to deal with.  The ONDP just self expolded.  1.  The election was called because the NDP voted in confidence measure, I think it budget change.  The NDP was blamed for the election(enabling the Horde(Hudak) to ride the Ontario political plians.  The exmplation for this triggering of the early election was nonsence and believed that its crass opportuitness. 2. The platform and  the"letter" here is a link.

https://www.sudbury.com/local-news/horwath-ndp-returns-to-roots-in-seeki...

The letter goes on to say that in Horwath's “rush to the centre,” she's abandoned the party's values. “If the NDP does not stand with working people, poor people, with women, with immigrants, then what does it stand for?” the letter said.

​And yes the liberal came to the rescue as guardians of the marganlized in society.  I bow to the brilliant peope why run liberals elections in Ontario.  I still remember thinking the fed election is going a diaster because the mulcair will out flanked on the left like Horwath was. And so the best opportunty in geneartion to ONDP win power was scuttled.

Why was this story relevant to critism of the parties that proport to stand leftists ideas.  Accountability.  If the left in the party can not be critical of the leadership then we will never learn from mistakes.  Accountabiltiy is the first step to getting more voters and political power.  

People are still talking about Clinton? I'd expect that from the Trump cult but here?

She's no longer in government and her political career is over.

GET. OVER. IT.

You can find a whole bunch of interesting pages if you google "Trump sore winner".

Hillary Clinton: "Donald Trump is Too Friendly With North Korea"

https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/895257315649224705

NDPP wrote:

Hillary Clinton: "Donald Trump is Too Friendly With North Korea"

https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/895257315649224705

That's from an old article before the 2016 presidential election still during 2016 Democratic primaries.

Trump supporters are spewing so much fake news!

JKR wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Hillary Clinton: "Donald Trump is Too Friendly With North Korea"

https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/895257315649224705

That's from an old article before the 2016 presidential election still during 2016 Democratic primaries.

Trump supporters are spewing so much fake news!

Lately,everything NDPP posts is fake news. I'm surprised he hasn't added Pepe The Frog Memes to go with them as well.

alan smithee wrote:

JKR wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Hillary Clinton: "Donald Trump is Too Friendly With North Korea"

https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/895257315649224705

That's from an old article before the 2016 presidential election still during 2016 Democratic primaries.

Trump supporters are spewing so much fake news!

Lately,everything NDPP posts is fake news. I'm surprised he hasn't added Pepe The Frog Memes to go with them as well.

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I would love to get over Clinton. The problem with that is that she keeps inserting herself in the limelight and when she is asked about 2016 is not capable of any self-awareness of why she lost.

Neither of those compels you to maintain your interest in her.  And it's a bit dishonest, when so many Trumpies remain obsessed with her, to pretend that she's somehow forcing herself onto the public's eyes.

Take ownership of your resentment of her.  These aren't the reasons you still care.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

People are still talking about Clinton? I'd expect that from the Trump cult but here?

She's no longer in government and her political career is over.

GET. OVER. IT.

I would love to get over Clinton. The problem with that is that she keeps inserting herself in the limelight and when she is asked about 2016 is not capable of any self-awareness of why she lost. People keep talking about Clinton because Clinton keeps talking, and as long as she stays around she remains a very easy foil for the Republicans to challenge.

Obama's gone and Clinton is gone and people still blame everything on them. Some do it as a distraction and some are simply obsessed with them.

It's like pointing the finger at Pearson or Diefenbaker for all our ills. I'm over those 2,good or bad. They are long since expired.

Trumpsters are the most ignorant,self absorbed assholes out there. Even if you present them with facts,video facts,audio facts proving Trump is a pathological liar and a con man,a majority of them will blame Obama.The rest would blame Clinton. These people are too far gone. They should be totally ignored and never mentioned again the minute this administration disappears.

NDPP wrote:

With New DC Policy Group, Dems Continue To Rehabilitate and Unify With Bush-Era Neocons    -    by Glenn Greenwald

https://t.co/ZijwBE1cmt

"Both Democrats and neocons share far more than revulsion toward Trump, particularly once Hillary Clinton became the party's standard-bearer. They share the same fundamental beliefs about the US role in the world and how to assert US power. In other words, this alliance is explained by for more than antipathy to Trump. Democrats find large amounts of common cause with neocons when it comes to foreign policy."

So too apparently do their 'progressive' Canadian fans...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZngTkp54I

From almost exactly one year ago (OK, one year, one day):

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I think the question is, would Donald Trump do something different. Would he, for instance, be more circumspect about using USA military around the world?

That's the crucial question, unfortunately with no clear answer.

Oh brother. Here we go again:

Ken Burch wrote:

I'd like to ask those still think they were right to see Hillary as the greater evil in the fall campaign...would any of you be prepared to defend the idea that keeping her out of the White House was more important than anything else, if you were asked to do so before an audience of Muslim-Americans, African-Americans, Latinx-Americans, LGBTQ Americans, and women who still wish to make their own reproductive decisions?  Are any of you still of the belief that letting Trump take power, and forcing everyone in the above-mentioned groups into battles for their very survival, was preferable to electing Hillary and, with her flaws, at least creating the conditions in which all of those people would actually have a real chance of making some gains?

I'll get to the issue of "stopping Hillary" later on. The issue here is that the Democrats made the same fatal mistake they did in 2004, that being that their candidate could be elected on a platform of "I'm not a Republican." People hate politicians by default, so if you want people to vote for you, you need to give them a reason. Hillary in particular came off with an air of expecting to be treated like royalty and she bristled at anyone who didn't treat her likewise.

As for your points about women exercising reproductive choice? That is pretty hard to do in deep Republican states that don't fund services and when doctors themselves won't perform the procedure for fear of getting shot, and that's been going on for a long time. As to the argument that "vote for Clinton because these neo-nazis support Trump?" What was supposed to happen? Was Clinton supposed to wave a magic wand and all of a sudden the neo-nazis would either disappear or stop being racist? (Never mind that minorities themselves didn't even come out for her in the same numbers with which they came out for Obama) I think you could have made a compelling argument that a Clinton election would have been difficult as well, for the simple reason that these neo-nazis would have felt frustrated with Clinton's election and even taken out their frustrations on members of minority communities. If there's one silver lining I see in Trump's election, it's that the darkness of the American psyche is now on full display, people are becoming more aware, and they are standing up to challenge it, moreso than what happened under Obama or would have happened under Clinton because "well, we stopped the Republicans, all is well in our country."

Ken Burch wrote:

I backed Bernie in the primary, too.  And his campaign made enough of a difference to justify voting for her in the fall.  The party platform a lot of his policies.  Bernie and those of us who backed him would have had a massive say on policy had HRC become president.  Now, all progressives are powerless.  Is there anybody who would still argue that she was so terrible that it's more important to fight her, a retired politician, than it is to try to find some way to save the planet from Trump?

First of all, in terms of saving the planet from Trump: I don't like that he withdrew from the Paris Accord, however he said that he would on the campaign trail. I think getting angry at him for doing what he said he would do when there's nothing we can do to make him change his mind is counterproductive. Instead, focus on making renewable energy viable and it will displace fossil fuels just on the basis of economics regardless of whether Trump likes it or not. I think what happened at the recent G-20 Summit, where the other 19 leaders reaffirmed their commitment to the Paris Climate Agreement and decided to soldier on towards meeting that target and thereby sidelining him completely was the right approach.

In terms of party platform, talk is cheap. Her husband also won on a progressive platform and message and failed to deliver. Plus Clinton has such a long track record of taking policy positions based on what she perceives as popular and will win votes in the moment that many people simply did not trust her to push for them. And her people fought tooth and nail against adding any progressive elements to this platform. And I really doubt that progressives would have had any sway because of several things. From openly courting Republican voters, to choosing a corporatist running mate rather than someone like Nina Turner, even to ignoring offers of help from Bernie supporters in key areas. Not only that, there was never any scenario in which the House was expected to go back to Democratic control. In that situation, she would have moved further and further right to try to appease the Republicans. And if you think her popularity dropped during an actual election campaign, how much more would it have dropped when she made decisions as President that would have alienated people? So the anger and the frustration towards her builds, the Republicans take back both the House and Senate in 2018. The stage is now set for a Donald Trump 2.0 to capitalize on Clinton's unpopularity and then becomes inevitable.

Furthermore, why do we even trust the Democrats to stand up to Trump, when so many Democratic Senators voted for his Cabinet picks? When Tulsi Gabbard bravely spoke out against Trump on Syria, she was visiously maligned by people within her own party.

What it boils down to is that to some people, some things are simply unacceptable no matter who does them or says them. Would people have overlooked Laura Bush calling black youth super predators? If Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz had connections to a big city Republican mayor possibly complicit in the cover-up of a police shooting of an unarmed black male (think Rahm Emanuel) would that be acceptable? If a Republican politician accepted money from prison lobbyists, would people have overlooked that? If a Republican voted for the Patriot Act and against same-sex marriage (the only time I've ever heard Hillary give a straight answer to a question was being asked about supporting same-sex marriage and clearly saying "no) would that be acceptable?

The Republicans will always be crazier than the Democrats, the same like I expect to see the sun rise in the eastern sky tomorrow. But the question I have, Ken, is: how fucking horrible does a Democratic nominee for President have to be before we can say, "no, I can't accept this" without being accused of enabling the Republicans?