Full report coming from Glen McGregor on CTV National News tonight:
EXCLUSIVE: Two women come forward with graphic sexual misconduct allegations against Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader Patrick Brown. Allegations, which Brown denies, date back to when he was a federal MP. Watch @glen_mcgregor’s report tonight. #cdnpoli #onpoli
https://twitter.com/CTVNationalNews/status/956348528623804417
Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:00PM EST
OTTAWA – Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader Patrick Brown is facing serious allegations of sexual misconduct from two women who spoke to CTV News. In interviews, the women allege inappropriate behavior by the rising political figure throughout his tenure as an elected official.
One was still in high school when she says Brown, a well-known Barrie politician, asked her to perform oral sex on him.
The other, a university student who worked in his office when Brown was a federal Conservative MP, alleges Brown sexually assaulted her following an event she helped organize.
Brown's lawyer has responded, saying that Brown "categorically denies these false and defamatory allegations."
Both incidents are alleged to have happened inside Brown’s home in Barrie, Ont., after the women had been drinking in his presence.
Brown, a well-reported teetotaler, was not drinking alcohol at the time of the alleged incidents, both women told CTV News.
CTV News has agreed to protect the identities of the women who have come forward.
Full story at link:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/patrick-brown-denies-sexual-misconduct-a...
Oops, pre-empted.
So...resignation speech on Monday?
The resignation of Brown's senior staffers in protest of his decision not to resign could, together with the sexual allegations against him, really shake up the election race in which the Conservatives have been ahead in nearly every poll. For those who are fed up with the long Liberal reign and its scandals, including this month's conviction of McGuinty's former chief of staff, this could provide the NDP an opportunity.
The allegations, which were first reported by CTV and have not been proven in court, quickly drew reactions from several Canadian politicians and a few members of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party.
Directly following the conference, where Brown called the accusations “categorically untrue,” several senior staffers in the Ontario PC Party promptly resigned. Early on Thursday morning, Brown followed stepped down as leader of the Ontario PC Party through a written statement posted online. ...
The first resignations were announced on social media by campaign manager Andrew Boddington, chief of staff Alykhan Velshi and deputy campaign manager of strategy Dan Robertson.
The three released a joint statement stating they’d learned of the allegations earlier that day, and upon discussing them with Brown, they’d advised him to resign.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3986130/patrick-brown-sexual-misconduct-react...
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/01/24/tory-leader-patrick-b...
Looks like Brown has resigned. This link above to the Star should now take you to the news he has stepped down as PCPO leader.
Does Caroline Mulroney want to be the new PC leader?
A rare case of agreement between Christie Blatchford and Rosie Dimanno:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/25/patrick-brown...
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-what-happened-to-bro...
ETA: If the new leader is Christine Elliot then the Liberals may be in trouble.
Looks like Christie's paying her dues for being accepted as girl mascot to the Old Boys' Club.
All men are vulnerable? Really? I don't think so. Just the creeps. And it's their own doing.
Seriously, how hard is it not to be an asshole?
seriously this diatribe and angst is about 3 men out of thousands in politics.
the world is ending or something because maybe these men do not know how to be.
Does Caroline Mulroney want to be the new PC leader?
Well, it's not exactly the way one might hope that equality would be advanced, but I would imagine that in situations like this, a female replacement might have some appeal beyond her professional merits. It's a quick way to reassure everyone that the same thing isn't going to happen a second time.
That said, I bet nobody's salivating harder than Doug Ford right now.
Ok I’m going to jump into this thread. First off, this is so far allegations. As far as I’m aware nothing has been proven in any court. Secondly, it’s kind of uncomfortable to hear that the winners in all of this is the ONDP. If there where any winners, it would be the victims finally getting justice when this is all over. To suggest a “political” winner is kind of ignoring and being cold to the fact that there’s alleged victims.
Secondly, it’s kind of uncomfortable to hear that the winners in all of this is the ONDP.
I'm sorry you had to hear that.
Where did you hear it from?
Well, it's not exactly the way one might hope that equality would be advanced, but I would imagine that in situations like this, a female replacement might have some appeal beyond her professional merits. It's a quick way to reassure everyone that the same thing isn't going to happen a second time.
I hear Kellie Leitch is looking for work. And bringing in female leaders as "quick reassurance" PR moves (not to mention "glass cliff" scapegoats for forthcoming losses) isn't problematic at all, is it? After all, no federal Tory has been accused of misconduct since Kim Campbell was prime minister, and Audrey McLaughlin put a permanent end to that sort of thing in the NDP.
The most astute article so far is Ed Keenan's in the Star:
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/26/why-does-a-pa...
There is no presumption of innocence in politics. No due process, either. There never has been, and there shouldn’t be.This is a fundamental truth that seems obvious enough. But after the sudden downfall of Patrick Brown, who until this week had been the leader of the Ontario Conservative Party and the frontrunner to become our next premier, there have been a lot of complaints that these legal concepts have been jeopardized. “Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?” some ask. “And besides, is what he is alleged to have done even criminal?”
So perhaps it’s worth remembering that politics is not a court of law. By definition political battles are waged in the court of public opinion — which has very different standards than criminal courts. This is as it should be, and as it always has been.
Lots of people don't succeed in getting elected for all sorts of reasons, but when it comes to sexual improprieties, all of a sudden, it doesn't count unless it's proven in a criminal court?
Why do allegations of sexual improprieties require such a high burden of proof to people like Rosie DiManno, or every men's rights activist in the world? It's almost like there's a patriarchy, or something.
The conspiracy theories have already started. At work yesterday I talked to two guys who insisted that these women were "found by Kathleen Wynn" to sabatoge the Conservatives right before the election. I said, Conservatives don't need a secret cabal of women to make themselves look bad.
When you look at everyone who lost their minds over Al Franken, it's not surprising that some people freak when it's one of their own who gets uncovered.
Point taken about conservatives, and it would be nice if it was just them resorting to this. But of course it isn't.
Considering no one has been charged it's not surprising that "nothing has been proven in a court of law". Since when did every case of harrassment or abuse go to court? Yet for some reason people (in some cases surprising, like Margaret Atwood) are falling for this rule of law trope, even though it has very little to do with most of these abusive situations.
Yet for some reason people (in some cases surprising, like Margaret Atwood) are falling for this rule of law trope
The case Atwood commented on concerned the firing of an employee of UBC. Employees have the right not to be fired without due cause and due process.
Patrick Brown was not fired. He resigned because he lost the confidence of his entire staff and entire caucus. Whether the staff and caucus should have given the accusations credibility isn't really the point. That's how politics works.
She talks about a good deal more than just UBC in her editorial:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/article37591...
And I agree with you about the political dynamic. So why are some here insisting that nothing is decided until it goes before a judge, even though it may never be a legal matter?
And I agree with you about the political dynamic. So why are some here insisting that nothing is decided until it goes before a judge, even though it may never be a legal matter?
There's the million dollar question, Winston. People get excluded from political office for all sorts of reasons, including their personal mannerisms. Recall Kellie Leitch's awkward video on Canadian values that brought the scorn of social media down upon her. And Ed Keenan referenced Howard Dean's primal scream that made him too weird to be president.
As one article pointed out (can't remember which; I've read so many), Brown came to Ottawa as an MP in his early twenties who soon discovered that being in power attracted the girls, and his preference was for really young girls, and he was a really young guy, so no problem. But he got older, and the girls didn't. Sure, it's not a criminal offense, but I wouldn't want my MP or party leader to be someone who commodifies women like that. I'd be thinking, if my beautiful 19 year old daughter goes to his office, is he checking her out?
I had 40+ year old guys propositioning me when I was a teenager, and I found it creepy and gross. Patrick Brown may have done nothing actually criminal, but surely our political leaders can be held to a higher standard than just avoiding criminal behaviour.
Rosie DiManno may not care if Patrick Brown was a womanizer, but I do.
I had 40+ year old guys propositioning me when I was a teenager, and I found it creepy and gross.
I can understand someone thinking to himself in his own mind that a woman is attractive, but I've never understood why men that old might think that teenage girls would actually be interested in having that kind of relationship with someone at least old enough to be their father.
I had 40+ year old guys propositioning me when I was a teenager, and I found it creepy and gross.I can understand someone thinking to himself in his own mind that a woman is attractive, but I've never understood why men that old might think that teenage girls would actually be interested in having that kind of relationship with someone at least old enough to be their father.
Rose mentioned Pierre Trudeau and Margaret as she was only 18 when they met but that was not the same situation. He dated her and yes that is different. What Brown did was try to take advantage of much younger women sexually while they were drunk and he was sober. Therein lies the creep factor. Let's not forget this is the Conservative party, the one that tries to appeal to social conservatives that don't want sex education taught in schools,wants moms to be married and wants laws governing abortion. It's not the libertarian party.
What??? You mean to tell me this girl was hit on by a creepy old man, and next thing you know she's asking the same for a job??? You find that credible? Really Pondering, perhaps you should ponder a bit more.
You're the one who needs to ponder. She wasn't traumatized. Why should she give up a job because of Brown's inappropriate behavior?
Right. I know something about drinking, though I don't drink any more myself. One of the things I know is that young people who drink 'more drinks than they can count' go to sleep. Usually after puking up supper.
That's me but that is clearly not the case for many people or there would be no such thing as "drunk and disorderly". Everyone would be sleeping. No one would die from alcohol poisoning.
If I was the person making the accusation that would be the first person I'd point to to corroborate my story. You'ne noted that yourself, but for some reason suggest that Brown should challenge her rather than have her just name the person.
Of course. He is the accused after all. If I were accused and innocent I would jump on it. I would say "Bullshit, it never happened, who is the "friend" you are referring to so I can prove you are lying. There are pictures of the party on facebook.
While sober he tried to take advantage of the drunkeness of two much younger women to get some sexual services.
“Despite the fact that this happened, I didn’t want to let this impede on what I saw then as a career opportunity,” she said, adding that she’s choosing to speak out now to support women in similar situations.
“I don’t think that any woman young or old should be subjected to that and put in a situation where they have to decide between the career opportunity that’s in front of them and . . . taking themselves out of a situation that’s at best uncomfortable and at worst unsafe.”
He was trying to get sex from a woman outside the context of any sort of relationship. He didn't follow up by asking them out on dates. He just wanted no strings sexual services. Asking someone for a blowjob isn't seduction. Getting a woman into your bedroom then having your friend leave so you can put the moves on her is an attempt to place her at a disadvantage especially if she is much younger and drunk. The goal was to get sex from women who could be maneuvered into it.
The guy who peed into a mug was ruined because his behavior disgusted people. If any politician was known to habitually pick his nose and leave the evidence under a chair, or eat it, his political career would be over. Brown's behavior was disgusting not illegal.
Women voters in the work force have all either experienced sexual advances from men in the workplace or have friends or relatives who have and have had to handle the situation delicately, or lost the job. We don't have to be delicate flowers in order for that behavior on the part of men to be inappropriate. We are allowed to react with "that's disgusting" and "that's not something I want my daughter to have to deal with". The whole point is that women shouldn't have to choose between a job and dealing with this shit.
The nonsense about how can men and women even date people they meet at work is a misdirection. He wasn't trying to date them he was trying to bed them outside the context of mutual desire. He was well aware that drunkeness would loosen their inhibitions and that younger women are easier to manipulate.
Only he, and these two young women on completely separate occasions were present for the sexual misconduct. There are no witnesses either way. I think conspiracy theories are unlikely so I am skeptical that two women would separately make up similar stories from a decade ago or that they would secretly conspire to to bring him down over it.
As to his credibility. He's a Conservative politician.
Brown was endorsed by the Campaign Life Coalition and the Ontario Landowners Association.[27][28] During Brown's leadership bid both special interest groups actively supported him by selling Ontario PC Party memberships amongst their members.[29][30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Brown_(politician)
@ Sineed
aristotled
You sound twisted. If a gay man hit on me, a straight male (and it’s happened before when I was younger) am I supposed to think that this gay man is creepy? And he’s not up to standard to be a politician? Lots of young people are in committed relationships with an older partner, and both are very happy and feel very lucky!!!! Just because we have been in an awkward position before of having to inform someone that we were not interested, that doesn’t mean that that person has any kind of problem! Oh and just FYI I have been hit on by women young enough to be my daughter( if I had a kid in my late teens early 20’s)!
Kind of interesting when Andrew Coyne hits, if not the right note, certainly a more reasonable note than many are on this issue:
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-metoos-moment-of-reckoning-...
So ever since the #MeToo thing arose I have been waiting for the promised descent into excess, the feminist reign of terror wherein perfectly decent chaps are hauled off for the kinds of minor indiscretions — the misconstrued remark, the harmless flirtation, the moment of madness in an otherwise blameless life — of which anyone might be guilty. I am still waiting.
With perhaps one or two exceptions, all of the cases of which I have read have been mercifully unambiguous.
http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01/28/party-president-rick-dykstras-resi...Right?? That might explain why MPP Lisa MacLeod was dismissed when she brought her concerns over rumours about Patrick Brown to the party months ago. According to the Toronto Star story, the party thought of not letting Rick Dykstra run in 2015 because of allegations made against him, but once again, a man gets a free pass on creepy behaviour as long as it's not illegal.
You sound twisted. If a gay man hit on me, a straight male (and it’s happened before when I was younger) am I supposed to think that this gay man is creepy?
Context is key. If you were 16 and the guy was 45, and he propositioned you when you came over to babysit his kids, I think you'd find it completely creepy. (That's what happened to me. The man and his wife later divorced, and I was unsurprised to hear that the wife said he was abusive. Men who abuse their power in one way are likely to abuse it in another.)
Feminists are not trying to ban sexual contact between consenting adults. We suggest to the guys saying "It's a witch hunt!" that everybody knows what behaviour is right or wrong, and nice guys are not going to be hauled before magistrates for asking a girl out and she isn't interested, or making a mildly transgressive comment or joke.
http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01/28/party-president-rick-dykstras-resi...Right?? That might explain why MPP Lisa MacLeod was dismissed when she brought her concerns over rumours about Patrick Brown to the party months ago. According to the Toronto Star story, the party thought of not letting Rick Dykstra run in 2015 because of allegations made against him, but once again, a man gets a free pass on creepy behaviour as long as it's not illegal.
Just to clarify, it was the federal Conservatives that let Dykstra run. Stephen Harper, Arthur Hamilton, that gang.
http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01/28/party-president-rick-dykstras-resi...Right?? That might explain why MPP Lisa MacLeod was dismissed when she brought her concerns over rumours about Patrick Brown to the party months ago. According to the Toronto Star story, the party thought of not letting Rick Dykstra run in 2015 because of allegations made against him, but once again, a man gets a free pass on creepy behaviour as long as it's not illegal.
Just to clarify, it was the federal Conservatives that let Dykstra run. Stephen Harper, Arthur Hamilton, that gang.
then there's no. difference between the ON PCs and the CPC?
You sound twisted. If a gay man hit on me, a straight male (and it’s happened before when I was younger) am I supposed to think that this gay man is creepy?Context is key. If you were 16 and the guy was 45, and he propositioned you when you came over to babysit his kids, I think you'd find it completely creepy. (That's what happened to me. The man and his wife later divorced, and I was unsurprised to hear that the wife said he was abusive. Men who abuse their power in one way are likely to abuse it in another.)
Feminists are not trying to ban sexual contact between consenting adults. We suggest to the guys saying "It's a witch hunt!" that everybody knows what behaviour is right or wrong, and nice guys are not going to be hauled before magistrates for asking a girl out and she isn't interested, or making a mildly transgressive comment or joke.
Ahh yes that is different. Actual age numbers are less vague than "young" or "old" .
We suggest to the guys saying "It's a witch hunt!" that everybody knows what behaviour is right or wrong, and nice guys are not going to be hauled before magistrates for asking a girl out and she isn't interested, or making a mildly transgressive comment or joke.
I'm a guy and I agree with this. I'm very socially awkward in real life. I often miss important social cues. I have inadvertently done and said things that I later found out really bothered and upset some people. In spite of this, even I understand very well that there are some things ya
just
don't
do.
He still doesn't get it.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/patrick-brown-blasts-ctv-news-1.45...
You sound twisted. If a gay man hit on me, a straight male (and it’s happened before when I was younger) am I supposed to think that this gay man is creepy?Context is key. If you were 16 and the guy was 45, and he propositioned you when you came over to babysit his kids, I think you'd find it completely creepy. (That's what happened to me. The man and his wife later divorced, and I was unsurprised to hear that the wife said he was abusive. Men who abuse their power in one way are likely to abuse it in another.)
Feminists are not trying to ban sexual contact between consenting adults. We suggest to the guys saying "It's a witch hunt!" that everybody knows what behaviour is right or wrong, and nice guys are not going to be hauled before magistrates for asking a girl out and she isn't interested, or making a mildly transgressive comment or joke.
Apparently, in this case, it was a 19 year adult and a 29 year old adult if the accusations are true.
This is big. He passed lie detector tests with flying colours.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/exclusive-patrick-brown-passed-lie...
This is very bad for the movement.
This is big. He passed lie detector tests with flying colours.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/exclusive-patrick-brown-passed-lie...
This is very bad for the movement.
As I'm sure you know, polygraph test results are generally not admissible in court, for a number of reasons. In fact, the U.S. has prosecuted people for teaching techniques for beating a "lie detector". They wouldn't be doing that if they didn't think the techniques were effective. This adds very little information to the case. What is really a problem for the OPCs is that Brown has entered the leadership race to replace himself at the last minute, and he still has a significant following among party members, perhaps even enough that he could feasibly win.
He still doesn't get it.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/patrick-brown-blasts-ctv-news-1.45...
Indeed. The appropriate response when accused of this kind of misconduct begins and ends with "these accusations are not true and I will be working with my legal team to prove my case." Anything else is a distraction. Best course of action for someone accused is to simply shut up and let his or her legal team quietly take on any public statements that are truly malicious. Apparently Brown does not grasp that fact.
April 23, 2018
Patrick Brown sues CTV for $8 Million
“We consider the defamation of Patrick Brown by CTV to be the most egregious in Canadian history,” Brown’s lawyer, Howard Winkler told Global News. “It is unlikely that the harm done by CTV will ever be fully repaired.”
. . .
The lawsuit names CTV, Bell Media, CTV president Wendy Freeman, CTV anchor Lisa Laflamme, reporters Glen McGregor, Rachel Aiello, and Travis Dhanraj. CP24, in addition to several “Jane or John Doe(s)” as editors, researchers and producers of the initial reporting are also named.
The statement said the defendants falsely broadcast and published newscasts, articles, Tweets and Facebook posts of what Brown allegedly did.
The claim also said prior to CTV’s publication of the “defamatory words,” polls indicated Brown was set to overtake the Wynne Liberals.
“The widespread and sensationalized broadcast and publication of the defamatory words delivered an almost immediate death blow to Mr. Brown’s reputation and political career,” the legal notice states.
“Within hours, Mr. Brown was forced to resign as Leader of the ON PC Party, his rising political aspirations shattered.”
Full article:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4161094/patrick-brown-ctv-defamation-lawsuit/
It should be an interesting trial if Brown isn't just fishing for a settlement.
Just my opinion but art doesn't generally pay very well.
I will certainly be interested to see where this leads.
But I have to think the issue isn't "did CTV accuse Patrick Brown of something he didn't do?" so much as "did CTV report that someone accused Patrick Brown of something he didn't do?"
I suppose it might come down to whether CTV's reportage was honest and in good faith.
If Brown is fishing for a settlement, why did he low-ball at $8 million? If you want $8 you scream for $80.
The allegations didn't end Brown's career. CTV didn't force him to step down. His staff and colleagues were all too eager to make him do that.
If Brown is fishing for a settlement, why did he low-ball at $8 million? If you want $8 you scream for $80.
OK, but then why not just scream for 8 Billion dollars?
I have to think that courts see stuff like that coming a mile away. If we can pretend that Brown was destined to lead us all and get his mug on a stamp some day, but for these reported allegations, 8 million is actually pretty reasonable. 800,000 would be a low ball, and 80 million would be a bit much.
CTV didn't force him to step down. His staff and colleagues were all too eager to make him do that.
That's a fair point. If this was all just poppycock he could have stayed put and waited for everything to shake out.
Personally, I think the most salient point is that CTV didn't accuse him of anything. They reported on someone else accusing him. If I publicly accuse Justin Trudeau of holding State Tea Parties with hand puppets, the media should feel free to report that I did that, without becoming legally bound up in whether that was accurate or not. If they don't say "and we assure you all that this allegation is true", and assuming they're not acting in bad faith, any libel should be on me, not them.
News media would get a whole lot quieter if they could only report on people's claims once those claims had been conclusively proven in court.
