[quote=NDPP]
Thanks Ken... a supporter of 'silly ass communism', Trump, and a 'Putinist' too they say, and more. Amazing eh? But one always considers the source. It's not unrelated to the political pathologies of putrefaction and perversion you remark above in Greece and elsewhere. It's here too this disease. You can hear the oligarchs and their msm agitprop dog-whistlers whistling the dogs.
Stalinism is extinct, Magoo. It's a waste of time to sneer at or denounce something that no longer exists. And NDPP is not a supporter of anything you would actually think of as "silly-ass Communism", so you owe him an apology for the pointless 1950s-style redbaiting.
What did I say to NDPP that warrants an apology? I was responding to a quote from an article, written by someone else.
McCarthyism in Europe Today
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/11/28/mccarthyism-in-europe-today/
"The razor-sharp mind of former Greek finance minister and the father of movement 2025, Yanis Varoufakis, is a good indicator of contemporary European thinking. And it's corrupt shallowness..."
He was simply making it clear that his ideas had nothing in common with the perverted model imposed by Stalin. And since nothing done in the Soviet Union after 1924 was revolutionary or transformative or successful or in any reason worth repeating by the 21st Century Left, where was the betrayal? It's not as if the only way to defy or defeat capitalist austerity is to defend "Marxism-Leninism".
Why should he have defended an ossified, bloodsoaked failure?
The 21st Century Left could replicate Stalin's revolutionary, transformative, and successful defeat of Adolf Hitler.
McCarthyism in Europe Today
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/11/28/mccarthyism-in-europe-today/
"The razor-sharp mind of former Greek finance minister and the father of movement 2025, Yanis Varoufakis, is a good indicator of contemporary European thinking. And it's corrupt shallowness..."
He was simply making it clear that his ideas had nothing in common with the perverted model imposed by Stalin. And since nothing done in the Soviet Union after 1924 was revolutionary or transformative or successful or in any reason worth repeating by the 21st Century Left, where was the betrayal? It's not as if the only way to defy or defeat capitalist austerity is to defend "Marxism-Leninism".
Why should he have defended an ossified, bloodsoaked failure?
The 21st Century Left could replicate Stalin's revolutionary, transformative, and successful defeat of Adolf Hitler.
I've always respected and celebrated the victory the workers and soldiers of the USSR achieved against Naziism.
That victory didn't require any of the choices Stalin made before the war.
It didn't excuse anything Stalin did to the Old Bolsheviks-
-or the huge number of rank-and-file Party members whose only crime was being on the wrong sign of "Uncle Joe"s latest moodswing;
-or the non CP communists, socialists and anarchists;
-or the artists who were given the choice to cease making art or die;
-or the huge number those who starved because Stalin kept swapping out the wheat crop out for guns rather than remembering that the Revolution he had dragged down into being a regime was led by "victims of starvation"-a fact that should have made him feel obligated to put the end of hunger in the USSR above all other goals;
-And that great victory would have happened without the Pact or the decision to starve the Republican forces in Spain of further arms, while falsely accusing the anti-Stalinist Left forces of the POUM of colluding with Franco,all in the name of eventually signing the Pact(a Pact that would not have been necessary had Stalin made sure the Republican cause prevailed, because the defeat of the Fascist side would almost certainly have led to the overthrow of Hitler and Mussolini, thus preventing World War II and the Holocaust);
Maximum respect to the Soviet forces who died fighting Hitler-their courage was epic and will always inspire the world. THEY were the heroes. They would have prevailed against Hitler no matter who led the Party.
The soul of any revolution, any "Party", is the comrades, not the leader.
We can revere the comrades without defending the choices of those above.
We do still need a radical socialist model, though, given that every "social democratic" party in Europe has given up on not only "social democracy" but even on preserving the existing levels of social provision; a change that has put all European social democratic parties into permanent electoral decline and benefited no one but the billionaires of the world. I think you'd pretty much have to agree that all of those parties should do the decent thing and vote to dissolve, so that people who actually stand with the poor and the powerless can have the chance to rebuild the European Left.
Social democratic parties in Canada and elsewhere were taken over by neoliberalists, including the NDP and the Liberals if they ever were one. Neoliberalists will never withdraw voluntarily. They will not therefore dissolve. To me the solution would be to take back the parties not dissolve them.
The 21st Century Left could replicate Stalin's revolutionary, transformative, and successful defeat of Adolf Hitler.
That should be super-easy since he's already dead.
That victory didn't require any of the choices Stalin made before the war.
Nor Stalin, nor even Communism. Just lots and lots of soldiers.
The 21st Century Left could replicate Stalin's revolutionary, transformative, and successful defeat of Adolf Hitler.That should be super-easy since he's already dead.
That victory didn't require any of the choices Stalin made before the war.Nor Stalin, nor even Communism. Just lots and lots of soldiers.
More than that...it was about the will to stand against a monster. The workers and soldiers of the USSR displayed that will, and it had little to do with Stalin that they did.
Greek Workers Stop Work in Opposition To Syriza Anti-Strike and Austerity Measures
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/01/13/gree-j13.html
"Thousands of Greek workers demonstrated and carried out strikes on Friday against further austerity measures being imposed by the Syriza government, along with severe restrictions on the right to take industrial actions.
Speaking to Reuters, retired ship officer George Papaspyropoulos said, 'This essentially abolishes the right to strike...Such things happened only during the junta. This government is leftist in name only. In deeds it's a junta..."
Just for old times' sake: What could a Canadian Syriza do?
It has been so inspiring to see the Greek people reject austerity and vote in a government committed to radical change. And what is so radical about Syriza? They want to do something pretty much no other government on the planet has committed to: put people first.
Just for old times' sake: What could a Canadian Syriza do?
It has been so inspiring to see the Greek people reject austerity and vote in a government committed to radical change. And what is so radical about Syriza? They want to do something pretty much no other government on the planet has committed to: put people first.
And they wanted to do that but were stopped by international capital. That just means they were stopped; it doesn't mean they were wrong to even try. Nothing good comes from pissing on dreams, Magoo.
And they wanted to do that but were stopped by international capital.
OK. But then why do so many people seem to think Tsipras is a sell-out?
And they wanted to do that but were stopped by international capital.OK. But then why do so many people seem to think Tsipras is a sell-out?
Because he sold out. Actually, not the right term. Betrayal is more appropriate,
And they wanted to do that but were stopped by international capital.OK. But then why do so many people seem to think Tsipras is a sell-out?
There are a lot of people who see leaving the EU(as Tsipiras') finance minister ended up advocating, as a left alternative to caving in to austerity. They see Tsipiras' decision to stay in and accept the austerity demands of international capital as a betrayal. Given that Tsipiras promised not to knuckle under, they see him as a coward.
The fact that they do doesn't change the fact that Greece was forced into the humiliation and agony of austerity by international capital as the price for staying in the EU, and it doesn't invalidate my point that Syriza was not wrong to try to defy austerity. Nor does it invalidate the feelings of those furious at Syriza for giving up on trying to find another way.
Your post still sounds like you're pissing on people for not checking their dreams at the door. Nobody on the left deserves to be mocked for believing in bold visions of change.
Your post still sounds like you're pissing on people for not checking their dreams at the door.
We all have dreams. But as someone once said, "a goal without a plan is just a wish". I suppose a dream is similar. Of course we want better things, but there's nothing sacred about that wanting. We don't have to stand in wordless awe of someone who says "I also want a better world".
Nobody on the left deserves to be mocked for believing in bold visions of change.
I'm down with actual visions, made real.
But are we talking about "bold" wishes? "Bold" hopes?
FWIW, I just find it kind of funny how, before he could do or not do anything, Tsipras was already being lauded, like when Obama won that Nobel Prize, but as soon as he laid down arms -- reasonably, as you say, with no other reasonable choice -- he was the Greek Mike Harris or something.
Your post still sounds like you're pissing on people for not checking their dreams at the door.We all have dreams. But as someone once said, "a goal without a plan is just a wish". I suppose a dream is similar. Of course we want better things, but there's nothing sacred about that wanting. We don't have to stand in wordless awe of someone who says "I also want a better world".
Nobody on the left deserves to be mocked for believing in bold visions of change.I'm down with actual visions, made real.
But are we talking about "bold" wishes? "Bold" hopes?
FWIW, I just find it kind of funny how, before he could do or not do anything, Tsipras was already being lauded, like when Obama won that Nobel Prize, but as soon as he laid down arms -- reasonably, as you say, with no other reasonable choice -- he was the Greek Mike Harris or something.
More like the Greek Ramsay MacDonald.
As to "plans", the election of ANY genuinely Left party involves risks-it can't be known for certain whether or not what it proposes to do will be workable. Does the fact that success can't be absolutely guaranteed mean the attempt to transform should never even be made?
To limit ourselves ONLY to what we know for sure we can do is to give up on making any real changes at all-because all we can be sure can be done is what is being done at the moment.
And there's never any good reason for a Left party to come into power and limit itself to mainly what is being done at the moment.
It puts you pretty close to arguing that the Left shouldn't even try to do anything significantly different than the Right at all-had Tommy Douglas taken that view, he never would have established Medicare in the province. Clement Attlee and Aneurin Bevan would never have created the National Health Service. Dave Barrett would never have introduced any of the measures he brought in in B.C., John Horgan wouldn't have done any of what his government has so far done other than Site C. Staying with the "workable" means giving up on being Left(or even "centre-left" at all).
Tsipiras ended up caving in. That's all the Greek story teaches us. It doesn't mean it was silly to even try standing up to the forces trying to strip Greece of dignity. And it doesn't mean it was absurd for those who elected Syriza to think a different outcome was possible.
Greece: A Country For Sale
https://jacobinmag.com/2016/09/greece-tsipras-memorandum-privatization-p...
"The most persistent myth concerning Syriza's capitulation to the troika is that it was a 'forced choice'. Alexis Tsipras didn't just dismiss the alternatives proposed by nearly half his own party and lead his government to the most spectacular surrender ever perpetrated by a left-wing political force. He also agreed to stay in power to fully and faithfully implement the policies of his former adversaries..."
Your post still sounds like you're pissing on people for not checking their dreams at the door.We all have dreams. But as someone once said, "a goal without a plan is just a wish". I suppose a dream is similar. Of course we want better things, but there's nothing sacred about that wanting. We don't have to stand in wordless awe of someone who says "I also want a better world".
Nobody on the left deserves to be mocked for believing in bold visions of change.I'm down with actual visions, made real.
But are we talking about "bold" wishes? "Bold" hopes?
FWIW, I just find it kind of funny how, before he could do or not do anything, Tsipras was already being lauded, like when Obama won that Nobel Prize, but as soon as he laid down arms -- reasonably, as you say, with no other reasonable choice -- he was the Greek Mike Harris or something.
Why is that funny? Unless you expect people to be clairvoyant. And I agree that Ramsay MacDonald is a good comparison. Although that might be a bit unfair to MacDonald.
Why is that funny? Unless you expect people to be clairvoyant.
I guess I'm still a bit confused as to which "hopey-changey" promises mean someone will show us the way, and which ones I should roll my eyes at so as not to seem naive.
What you're saying is that nothing should ever be tried unless we know in advance that it will succeed. If we did what you want, if we limited the Left's work to things we knew before trying would work, what could we do at all?Why is that funny? Unless you expect people to be clairvoyant.I guess I'm still a bit confused as to which "hopey-changey" promises mean someone will show us the way, and which ones I should roll my eyes at so as not to seem naive.
You spend a LOT of time here rolling your eyes at things people support and at things people do. What, exactly, are the sort of things you believe the Left should confine itself to doing? Is there a way to meet your standards of knowing for certain something is workable that would still constitute social or economic change in any way at all?
It sounds like you're saying nobody should even try to work for anything beyond what currently exists. If you really feel that way, why don't you just take out a Conservative Party membership and be done with it?
What you're saying is that nothing should ever be tried unless we know in advance that it will succeed.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm not talking about "trying".
But remember when Obama won the Nobel Peace prize, not even a year into his Presidency, and after he'd basically made no changes yet at all? And how everyone rolled their eyes at that premature celebration of hopey-changey-ness?
I'm just suggesting that people got a little bit overly excited with Syriza, and it was (evidently) just as premature.
I'm not saying Syriza shouldn't have "tried". I'm suggesting that we could have all curbed our enthusiasm a little until they did, or until it was at least a sure thing that they were going to.
Now Tsipras is like Bob Rae. Like a promising new cancer drug that gets everyone's hopes up and turns out to be a placebo sugar pill.
What you're saying is that nothing should ever be tried unless we know in advance that it will succeed.I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm not talking about "trying".
But remember when Obama won the Nobel Peace prize, not even a year into his Presidency, and after he'd basically made no changes yet at all? And how everyone rolled their eyes at that premature celebration of hopey-changey-ness?
I'm just suggesting that people got a little bit overly excited with Syriza, and it was (evidently) just as premature.
I'm not saying Syriza shouldn't have "tried". I'm suggesting that we could have all curbed our enthusiasm a little until they did, or until it was at least a sure thing that they were going to.
Now Tsipras is like Bob Rae. Like a promising new cancer drug that gets everyone's hopes up and turns out to be a placebo sugar pill.
And Tsipiras brought that on himself. He should have listened to his finance minister and done Grexit. There's no way Grexit would have brought anything worse than what the EU subjected Greece to. As a result of his choice, Tsipiras is the Ramsay MacDonald of Greece and should have done the decent and thing and resigned by now.
Agreed about the Obama thing, but that's not comparable to the Greek situation.
He should have listened to his finance minister and done Grexit.
In the space of only a few posts, over only a few days, you seem to have gone from "forced by International Capital" to "he folded".
I also found it funny how many people seemed to "rock-star" Varoufakis. Google "varoufakis thatcher" to see a love letter that makes Mulcair look like the spurned also-ran.
Yanis Varoufakis in Australia
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/11/28/varo-n28.html
"...Syriza is a case study in how pseudo-left bourgeois parties - and the individuals who lead them - will utilize 'left' and socialist rhetoric to deceive the working class and gain political power, in order to impose the dictates of the financial and corporate elite.
Varoufakis was introduced as...'radical', 'dangerous' and 'subversive', presenting him as an implacable foe of austerity and finance capital. After the experience of the Syriza government, to present Varoufakis in such a fashion depends upon the complicity of the media and political allies in covering up his crucial role in the historic betrayal of the Greek working class.
Varoufakis's backers around the world envisage Syriza-type movements being needed to carry out comparable betrayals in their own countries. They hope to build up and exploit his reputation to help channel anti-capitalist sentiment behind their own fraudulent 'anti-establishment' projects."
ps whither the ndp...?
He should have listened to his finance minister and done Grexit.In the space of only a few posts, over only a few days, you seem to have gone from "forced by International Capital" to "he folded".
I also found it funny how many people seemed to "rock-star" Varoufakis. Google "varoufakis thatcher" to see a love letter that makes Mulcair look like the spurned also-ran.
OK...he came to the erroneous conclusion that he had no choice but to fold.
Why is it so important to you to act as if the Left response to Tspiras' action is silly and childish? Is there a reason you're going to the mat for the idea that those who saw Tsipiras as a sellout were wrong to think there could ever have been any other outcome?
Why is it so important to you to insist on mocking all of this?
Or to compare it to the Obama thing when it has nothing whatsoever in common with that?
It's hard to understand, at times, why you post on a Left discussion page with you appear to think that most of the Left says and does is ridiculous and naive. And it's difficult to comprehend why you seem to feel entitled, based on your posts to take an attitude of dismissive superiority over most of the people of the Left, as if you are the only one here who has "wised up" and truly "knows the score".
To save time, would you just tell us what you think the Left SHOULD say, do, and stand for, what a Left that shared your intrinsically more discerning, pragmatic, "realistic" approach to politics and life should be about, in contrast to the delusional childish bullshit you believe we are currently engaged in?
In other words, would you finally be willing to at least consider engaging discussions here rather than just taking snide, passive-aggressive "everybody knows what I'm talking about here, right people?" potshots from the sidelines?
Yanis Varoufakis in Australia
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/11/28/varo-n28.html
"...Syriza is a case study in how pseudo-left bourgeois parties - and the individuals who lead them - will utilize 'left' and socialist rhetoric to deceive the working class and gain political power, in order to impose the dictates of the financial and corporate elite.
Varoufakis was introduced as...'radical', 'dangerous' and 'subversive', presenting him as an implacable foe of austerity and finance capital. After the experience of the Syriza government, to present Varoufakis in such a fashion depends upon the complicity of the media and political allies in covering up his crucial role in the historic betrayal of the Greek working class.
Varoufakis's backers around the world envisage Syriza-type movements being needed to carry out comparable betrayals in their own countries. They hope to build up and exploit his reputation to help channel anti-capitalist sentiment behind their own fraudulent 'anti-establishment' projects."
ps whither the ndp...?
Weird that their going after Varoufakis there-he RESIGNED when Tsipiras agreed to austerity and has led the fight against it. How did they decide HE was the phony?
Why is it so important to you to act as if the Left response to Tspiras' action is silly and childish?
It's not the reaction to his actions that I think are kind of silly, it's the reaction to him and Syriza before they did anything at all. I completely understand why the left would approve of Syriza's win, but IIRC it went way beyond that. I seem to recall people suggesting that we'd be much better off in Canada if Varoufakis could magically be our Finance Minister, for example. At that point, Syriza hadn't folded, but they really hadn't done much else either.
Or to compare it to the Obama thing when it has nothing whatsoever in common with that?
I think it has at least one thing in common: "let's get carving this guy's statue before he's done anything statue-worthy".
To save time, would you just tell us what you think the Left SHOULD say, do, and stand for, what a Left that shared your intrinsically more discerning, pragmatic, "realistic" approach to politics and life should be about, in contrast to the delusional childish bullshit you believe we are currently engaged in?
I'm not going to tell anyone what they have to do to please me, Ken. But if, say, Singh were to win the next election, let's all give him some time to do something worthwhile before the heaping of the accolades. Didn't everyone learn that lesson with Bob Rae?
I’ve heard hope and change as an election slogan, but I’ve never heard Don’t hope for change as one. “Don’t get your hopes up, but vote for me and, hey, you might just end up being surprised,”
The reaction to Syriza's victory was simply a manifestation of desperate hope. Being on the Left is ABOUT hanging onto and working to spead hope. The people who elected Syriza had no way of knowing how the situation would play out, and no reason, at that time, to assume that the worst would happen.
Once it did happen, what were they supposed to do? Pretend the agreement to impose austerity was no big deal? Assume that Syriza continuing in power after that still meant anything? There was nothing Syriza could do in power, after that, that could still possibly be socialist, social democratic, or even progressive. It was impossible for anything anyone on the Left could support to still be done by that particular government. What would you have had the people who displayed the reactions you so smugly mock do? Work from the start on the assumption that nothing could be done and that it was enough to have their "side" in power? Or just never stop voting PASOK? People had the right to feel elated that defiance of the EU at least seemed possible, and no reason to take an "obviously we're going to end up losing" attitude on election night. Nobody in Syriza's leadership was sounding anything but confident about the possibility of defeating austerity, and it wasn't clear even to international observers that the "troika" would be THAT ruthless and vindictive. You'd have been cheering and hoping in that square in Athens, too, if you'd been there.
As to Jagmeet, I'm pretty sure he would be held to reasonable standards and, since there couldn't possibly be any disappointment from him that could ever compare to the Greek situation, the response wouldn't be as intense either way.
BTW, if you're going to belabor the Obama thing, you do realize that there's a difference between the decision of an awards committee in a small Nordic country, a decision made by only a tiny handful of people, and the mass popular responses to both the Syriza electoral victory and the agreement by Syriza to accede to the EU's demands, right? It's not just apples and oranges...it's lingonberries and olives.
I’ve heard hope and change as an election slogan
Did you get 100% behind it?
The people who elected Syriza had no way of knowing how the situation would play out, and no reason, at that time, to assume that the worst would happen.
I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about people in their armchair, outside of Greece.
Why would they all be so similarly desperate?
I’ve heard hope and change as an election sloganDid you get 100% behind it?
The people who elected Syriza had no way of knowing how the situation would play out, and no reason, at that time, to assume that the worst would happen.I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about people in their armchair, outside of Greece.
Why would they all be so similarly desperate?
Because almost no other government on the planet was challenging austerity and neoliberalism. Syriza represented, around the world, the possibility of an alternative to that. Every "social democratic" party in Europe and the English-speaking countries was just obediently going along with the demands of global finance that the social welfare state be abandoned.
Precisely. There’s still some hope with the rise of Corbyn’s Labour Party and Podemos in Spain. But, overall, things still look pretty grim.
Syriza Mounts Savage Assault On Living Standards and Democratic Rights in Greece
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/01/26/gree-j26.html
"...The measures contained in the multi-bill passed January 15 by Greece's parliament are the most savage yet imposed - befitting a right-wing government where 'radical left' credentials are in tatters..."
Syriza Mounts Savage Assault On Living Standards and Democratic Rights in Greece....
whew this is a savage betrayal, but no doubt! a wave of the future for our liberal and social democratic governments, facing chaos and banker threats soon enough to come...time for reflexion no doubt, theory and praxis!
Greece: Syriza's Repressive Turn and its Background
https://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article46416
"Many on the international left believe that things in Greece are slowly improving, and that the Syriza government remains a left-wing force that is protecting the interests of workers and the poor even despite very difficult conditions. For those who accept this view, recent developments in the country will come as a nasty surprise...
'The intensification of judicial repression related to home auctions is only the most obvious instance of the authoritarian practices deployed by the Tsipras government. Judicial repression has also been deployed against those trying to defend the environment, as in the police repression of those protesting the open-air mining project operated by a Canadian firm in Skouries, Northern Greece.
More broadly, the government has used naked force to suppress all protests against its policies, particularly when there is a possibility that they might spread. The use of riot police against pensioners is only the most egregious example..."
Background Of Russia-Greece Summit in December: Greek Defense Chief Makes Landmark Foreign Policy Proposals
"The announced plans to turn Greece into a US aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean is a matter of concern and not only for Moscow."
TRNN: Canadian Miner Eldorado Gold Demands 850 Million Euros From Greek State (and vid)
https://therealnews.com/stories/canadian-miner-eldorado-gold-demands-850...
"Maria Kadoglou of Mining Watch Greece discusses resistance to the Skouries gold mine."
Syriza headed for a well deserved defeat on Sunday.
As expected, New Democracy wins government.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1147898901497831424
“Elections cannot be allowed to change an economic programme of a member state,” the former German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble told Varoufakis. “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties,” said the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/12/syriza-left-election
UK Labour anti-brexiteers take note...
