Are Male and Female Brains Biologically Different?

What Magoo said.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Actually it is not semantics. In this case words have meaning.

They changed the term to bring it in line with medical understanding that dysphoria is not an illness. Not just to remove stigma, but because the former classification was incorrect.

At this time gender dysphoria is not a physical condition or ailment. If it isn't a mental disorder either then there is no justification for medical insurance to cover hormones or surgery including medicare and it shouldn't be in the DSM. I fully support trans people getting free of charge whatever medical treatment they need to lead their best life.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

Who is willing to date trans-people. I did not expect to see numbers this extreme.

• 1.8% of straight women
• 3.3% of straight men
• 11.5% of gay men
• 29% of lesbians
• Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) - almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’
• transgender or nonbinary, 89% were willing to date another trans person.
• 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women were willing to date a trans woman
• 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman
• 50% of trans-inclusive straight men said they’d date a trans man
• 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man

So 28% of lesbians say they would date a trans person, but 69% of them would date a trans man not a trans woman.

98.5% of straight men would not date a trans woman.

Most people, male or female, who support trans rights do not believe trans people actually are the opposite sex to what they were born with. They are prepared to accept trans people changing their gender presentation, even physically, but they draw the line at sex. They are lying to trans people when they pretend to believe not just accept.

The article states this:

This is the first study to ever attempt to quantify the extent of trans discrimination when it comes to romantic and sexual relationships.

If that is true, even close to true, WOW! That amounts to medical malpractice. Romantic sexual relationships are not for everyone but they are an extremely important part of most people's lives.

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation...

That doesn't surprise me at all. It's called sexual orientation not gender orientation. Trans men have more options because they maintain their original genitals. From the perspective of a lesbian or a man trans men still have the part that turns them on. Surgery for trans women is more successful, it can be extremely convincing from what I have read. Even so from the statistics it seems it is not leading to significantly greater acceptance from the people who want to interact with vaginas sexually speaking but unlike trans men they no longer have the part that most people are attracted to.

Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women

Sexual orientation is not discriminatory. It isn't based on gender. It is based on sex, as in male and female.

Supporting trans theory uncritically because it is mean not and it is no skin off your nose is dishonest and harmful. It creates post-op expectations. Progressive men are all supportive and protective but suddenly at the bedroom door they are not quite woman enough.

Individually I can't say if any men here would date a trans woman or if the women would date a trans man but statistically the chances are low.

I don't want to be mean or disrespectful but I do want to be real. There is no evidence that we are born gendered. Despite the existence of intersexed people there is no evidence that someone can be born with a usual set of sexual characteristics and have them all the opposite of what they were supposed to be.

Some transgender people limit themselves to hormones, other progress to surgery.  A trans woman who doesn't progress to surgery may be just as trans gender as one who does. As Magoo pointed out this is major surgery. It is irreversible. It causes infertility. It can mean giving up sexual satisfaction. It can't be reversed. Trans women pay a very high price for full transition.

Pretending that we fully accept trans women as the same as natal women is gas-lighting them when it seems for the most part it isn't true. What we are accepting of is allowing them to express the gender role assigned to the opposite sex. It isn't just radical feminists that don't believe trans women are female. It's most people. They just won't admit it until they get to the bedroom door.

Trans people, especially trans women, need the facts not just theory before they take irreversible steps. Those facts include the severe limitations that will be placed on their sex lives and the fact that while they will recieve a lot of outward support it doesn't mean people actually believe they are women unless they pass. Even if they pass most people especially straight men will still reject them as sexual partners.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Misfit wrote:

Pondering,

Why did you post that? It is so nasty!!!

Want to know what's even funnier and nastier than that? When a trans person dares to hold a support meeting to talk about how it feels to deal with that stigma she gets accused of a conspiracy to rape and force women to have sex with her. That is the degree of hatred we are dealing with here.

And considering Pondering is just repeating arguments that have been debunked (like the insurance one) I am not sure why other than she doesn't want to admit she is wrong.

As for what the purpose of surgery and treatment is, I should think that would be obvious, given that the result of dysphoria can be stress and depression. So I'm not sure why it is being taken as a rhetorical point in favour of the illness lie.

First. Trans women deserve to have all rights afforded to other women and so do trans men deserve the rights men have. See the way we say that? Men's rights. Women's rights. Shouldn't it be people's rights?

The problem with our world is not trans people. Trans people may be the cure. Especially those who are gender queer or fluid. They are decoupling sex and gender.

Some people are transgender but choose not to transition due not only to the medical challenges but because life for someone who has transitioned is not necessarily better for all transgender people individually especially if they have past puberty and have strong characteristics that indicate their sex. Sometimes it is still the best solution but not always.

Someone like Jenna Talackova is physically very feminine. She is unlikely be be challenged anywhere. She is beautiful which gives women status. I don't know when she transitioned, before or after puberty, but there is no doubt that people who transition before puberty have a more convincing physique therefore have an easier time living their gender identity.

I would be surprised if any trans woman (or man) raped anyone. It's the opposite. Trans people are the ones that get raped and far worse.

I don't know if rape is even normal human behavior. That is, does rape exist in all societies?

I am absolutely not claiming it is a mental illness. I am saying we don't know what it is and right now we only have two choices. Mental or physical. If an illness has not been identifed as physical there is only one other alternative. Mental. It doesn't mean it isn't a physical ailment. Epilepsy was classified mental until a physical cause was found. It is absolutely within the realm of possibility that a physical cause for transgenderism will also be found. Autism is in the DSM too.

Let's say it is proven that there is some physical or chemical (I say or chemical but chemical is physical) aspect we are born with that does determine gender identity. Not in the simplistic pink dresses sense, a marker of gender identity not gender expression.

The question then becomes what do we do to correct it? Maybe whatever this marker is would be very difficult to impossible to change. In that case the only choice would be transitioning people as we do now but starting from the moment of diagnosis.

Alternatively if it is an easy chemical switch, a prescription will do the trick and the individual will identify with the expected gender, no surgeries required, that would be the preferred treatment from a medical perspective but the idea is much more repellant.

Why do I say that? Because our gender identity is so much of who we are. I don't want a pill that would make me a man.  My sense of who I am is inextricably linked with being a woman. I would guess that is how trans women feel too. Many wouldn't want a pill that would "correct" their gender identity even if it were the easier medical intervention.

Many (all?) societies have two-spirited people or "ladyboys" that didn't have access to medical intervention. Maybe the reason trans people have to transition physically is connected to our society's rigid gender roles. Maybe if we honored them they wouldn't want to choose one binary or the other.

Say I am in a gym locker/changing room with 8 other women getting changed. A male janitor walks in. Women will be covering themselves and screeching for him to get out. None of these 8 women would be afraid he is going to rape them nor would I be. My emotional reaction would still be one of feeling intimidated and feeling the need to cover myself for protection. If the gym told me he is gay so it doesn't matter so they will continue to send him in I would stop going to the gym. Even if I have been culturally programmed to feel the way that I do it doesn't change my reaction. I still feel the way I do.

Regardless of whether or not we are born gendered, trans people still feel the way that they do. The desire for proof and for it not to be "mental" is rooted in societal prejudices against mental illness because we don't understand it and we fear it. If it is mild there is strong suspicion that it is character weakness. If it is serious it's scary because people are percieved to be acting without reason therefore are completely unpredictable.

Autism is a physical condition but it is still in the DMS. It's treated with some of the same drugs as depression, anxiety, and epilepsy are treated with coupled with behavioral therapy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_transsexual_and_transgen...

In the DSM-V, gender identity disorder was replaced with gender dysphoria; the focus is no longer on identity, but on the distress that trans people may experience when their biological sexes do not line up with said identities. Persons with gender dysphoria are also no longer classified by sexuality.[5]

Distress is emotional like anxiety and depression. If a trans gender person is not experiencing emotional distress there is nothing wrong with them. Like it or not medical treatment is not being offered because the medical community agrees that people are born gendered. It is being offered as the only means of successfully treating the mental distress.

Our knowledge and treatment of mental illness is barely beyond blood-letting. I don't even like the word. It should be changed to neurological or something.

Considering that there is no proof that we are born with a gender identity, and that we know so much of gender behavior is guided by cultural norms, why the outrage that transgenderism even might be a mental disorder?

Could it be that without realizing it you are following the logic that if it is a mental disorder then it isn't "real"? Or that it means trans people are "crazy"?

Misfit, to answer your previous question, that men are more buff on average due to biological development during puberty doesn't mean individual women can't be more buff than a man or buff enough to perform the same tasks.

We can't pretend that puberty doesn't happen and doesn't differenciate between the physical capabilities of males and females. The problem in my eyes is the prejudices that lead us to assign gender roles.

I did just find one of the links I hit but didn't go read from this thread.

https://genderanalysis.net/2017/08/being-transgender-is-a-mental-illness...

.....this accusatory labeling of transgender identity as a “mental disorder” ......

Wow. Accusatory labeling? People are "accused" of having mental disorders?

I suffer from depression to the extent that I am on wellburtrin for life. I had spent 30 years trying different medications. I had a new doctor and the doctor said "Is there anything you would like to try?"  I chose wellbrutrin because I was a very heavy smoker. Notice "was". Wellbrutrin is Zyban. Within two days of starting my smoking was cut in half without any effort on my part. It just happened. Eventually I quit which was harder but I succeeded.

Whenever I try to stop taking it I feel the impact within 3 days. By the time a month is past I'm not getting out of bed in the morning. I'm sleeping 12/16 hours a day. Not eating. Not showering. Not leaving the house unless I am forced and getting back as fast as I can. I have left food in grocery stores because the line up was too long for me to bear to stay. I didn't open my mail for months. That can cause serious problems. Like eviction.

I have tried stopping numerous times because I feel fine on it. I feel "cured". The thinking goes "I'm okay now, everything is under control, I can control my mood and behavior without pills." Only I can't. For years I constantly searched for the reasons I was depressed but that made it worse because dwelling on your misfortunes does that. On Wellbrutrin I am fine.

Depression is a mental disorder I have no control over without medication. It was so bad I was willing to try shock therapy. Am I supposed to be ashamed of that because it is a mental disorder?

Well I am ashamed of it. It makes me feel like I have a weak character. Something is wrong with me that can't be fixed and it is in my head. It is my fault. I should be able to make it go away. I should control my thoughts.

Instead I take Wellbrutrin and for sudden waves of melancholy I use cannabis.

So on second thought maybe accusation is the right word after all. Why can't I just make it go away? In this moment I want to stop taking the pills again. I want to prove that I am in control of my own brain and thoughts and there is nothing wrong with me. I am not weak-minded. I don't dare. I tried 3 times already and I've been warned they could stop working and I am already at maximum dose.

Having a mental disorder is not a crime. It isn't my fault. I have tried as hard as hard can be to not be this way.

It is very hurtful for me to meet with the attitude that saying gender dysmorphia is a mental illness is so deeply insulting that it is called an accusation. That I am stigmatizing them.

I'm getting the message loud and clear that mental disorder is something for me to be ashamed of. I thought about not admitting to it. But if I don't admit it I am confirming that it is something to hide. That it is okay to be diabetic, but mental illness, how repellent. I do feel ashamed but I am not going to hang my head.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Where did misfit bring up that issue? Some other thread, maybe?

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

And this isn't about shaming someone for mental illness, so please stop pretending that it is. It is about claiming that gender dysphoria is a mental illness when it is not.

We do not have proof of the existence of gender identity at birth. Maybe it exists. Maybe it doesn't. Not even trans people can tell us what they thought when they were born. You can't just declare it to be so.

It is more than obvious that you consider a mental disorder/illness/disease/condition to be a worse outcome than finding evidence of a physical cause for transgenderism. 

When you interpret mental disorder as an accusation you stigmatize mental illness. The article you linked to called it exactly that. An accusation. Your attitude indicates that you agree.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Your example has nothing to do with either transgendered people, or men pretending to be. It was about a guy who got himself stuck in a wall and died. And it was in Calgary. And all it does is perpetuate the framing of this as a fear issue, centred around trans people.

It is an example of how far some heterosexual men will go to catch a woman in a state of undress. I said it is not justification for preventing trans women from using the women's facilities but women shouldn't be mocked for fearing heterosexual men could use it as a means of invading women's spaces.

Apparently you do think women should be denigrated for fearing heterosexual men might consider keeping impersonation in their bag of tricks. It's not like they have scruples or care about the reputations of trans woman. You are condemning women for even having that emotion. For letting the thought cross their mind.

It isn't enough for you if we say trans women's safety comes first so of course they should be entitled to use the women's facilities. We aren't allowed to fear heterosexual men might take advantage of the situation.

We aren't allowed to be of the opinion that gender is a social construct without being accused of bigotry.

I have bent over backwards not to claim that gender identity is soley a social construct. I have bent over backwards to affirm the coverage of medical treatment and the full social acceptance of trans woman including their use of women's restrooms and to make it very clear that trans women are not a threat.

I have a right to reject the notion that I was born with a gender identity labeled woman separate from my sex. I have a right to object to it being taken as a matter of fact when no such thing has been proven. Not even close.

I am still reading the argument that girls like pink even though in recent history pink was for boys and boys wore dresses with ruffles. On the BBC website no less. This is serious for me. It perpetuates a stereotype about women and emphasizes our being inherently different from men. It goes along with the whole women are nurturers and men aren't thing.

Women have good reason for resisting the theory that we are born with a gender identity. We don't deserve to be attacked for it.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But Pondering, you frame it as: "The fear is of men dressing up like trans women not trans women."

Backed up with, well nothing but a story about some guy in a wall. And how are you supposed to tell the difference?

Surely you realize that all it does is target transpeople, and anyone who doesn't fit some people's gender stereotypes. All you are doing by spreading myths like that is telling people they are right in questioning and undermining someone's identity, and challenging their right to go to the bathroom.

As I said in the other thread, it has happened to my kid regularly, even when she was 12. It is nothing but fearmongering, and it is no solution at all to any of this.

Realistic or not it is reasonable for it to occur to women that men could use that tactic. I never imagined a man would slip between walls. Or install cameras in a restaurant bathroom. Or use a hidden camera to upskirt women. I can't even imagine why anyone would find the picture even interesting. A covered crotch shot with a skirt at least partly in the way.  Why would anyone want that. I can only imagine it is some sort of power trip that he is getting crotch shots without being detected. I have no idea what angle I will read about next. It's impossible to know what they will try.

All women including trans women are prey. Now that transitioning is happening younger some trans women are able to avoid developing masculine features if they so choose. Trans people that transition at a much older age can look very masculine.

I am surprised that your daughter was confronted at such a young age. Although girls are maturing younger and younger at 12 pre-teen bodies aren't that different. It isn't until puberty that boys get the growth spurts and other features that mark them. Breasts come earlier for girls but not all girls.

I'm also sorry that she had to experience that. It must have been very hurtful at such a tender age.