Smith i could not imagine forcing Jazz or Blaire into using a man's bathroom
but...in understanding patriarchy and the sick ass men out there i see too much room for exploitation of a public spaces, events, bathroom or change rooms and there's more sick ass men out there than trans women.
everytime i will choose the protection of women and women's right to men free spaces.
Yeah, and I'd say the solution lies more in redesigning those spaces to accommodate - not just transpeople, but others who want more privacy. It is not going to be accomplished by denying rights protection, or recognition of crimes committed against people based on gender.
Whatever one's opinion is of gender, the fact that people are discriminated against based on it is undeniable.
They are already making those kinds of changed in places; there are schools here with three bathrooms, and a local community centre is redesigning their change space to be entirely single-stall. In this case it isn't just about gender issues, but also people from certain communities more concerned about modesty.
I wasn't speaking as a man, but as a person who has a lot of trans/non-binary friends-I support their cause as I support yours. That's the only point I was coming from-that, as a community, they've done nothing to deserve being negated to deserve having their personal truth denied by another oppressed community.
while pouring myself a coffee since making the post i was thinking further on the bathroom and spaces privacy.
i wouldnt even care if boys, who don't feel comfortable in men's spaces because of the predators, came into women's spaces to change or use the bathroom.
predators are an issue. there's too many of them. i'd rather all the money spent on brain studies of gender were spent on brain studies of predators. is it nurture or nature?
Here is a refreshingly civil debate between two philosophers. It illuminates the complexity of some of these issues, but in what I found to be a non-alienating and productive way.
https://aeon.co/essays/transgender-identities-a-conversation-between-two-philosophers
I wasn't speaking as a man, but as a person who has a lot of trans/non-binary friends.
bs. you were detailing your beliefs as if there were no others because of your experiences. a decidedly man thing to do in the feminist forum.
Here is a refreshingly civil debate between two philosophers. It illuminates the complexity of some of these issues, but in what I found to be a non-alienating and productive way.
https://aeon.co/essays/transgender-identities-a-conversation-between-two-philosophers
omg is it ever refreshing. thank you thank thank you.
going to be rereading this over and over.
I wasn't speaking as a man, but as a person who has a lot of trans/non-binary friends.
bs. you were detailing your beliefs as if there were no others because of your experiences. a decidedly man thing to do in the feminist forum.
What I said about trans/non-binary people isn't "my beliefs"-it's what trans/non-binary people have taught me. It's not a "man thing" to say that someone else is being unfair to people who aren't cis-men. I deeply respect the fact that you acknowledged that trans/non-binary people deserve protection from oppression. My last questions, and I won't post in this thread anymore after this since you seem to be taking my posts as disrespect and I have nothing but respect for you, is this: Why do you use phrases like "men who think they are women"? Why, in fighting for the rights of cis-women to be protected from oppression-a fight all regular posters on Babble stand with you on, since we're all progressives-do you seemingly feel you have to argue that trans/non-binary women don't count? Why does it appear that you don't feel like you can defend your cause without using terminology that would sound to any trans/non-binary person as dismissal of theirs? Do you work under the assumption that dialog and coalition with trans/non-binary women isn't possible?
I respect your cause and your struggle-the only point of disagreements we have is who are the true enemies of your cause. I'll leave it at that.
@ pookie
Yes, a very good set of articles.
have you read my posts Ken? i mean really. if you had you wouldnt be wasting my time
but dont stop posting here please just stop imposing how you think we should think or feel. put your opinions up without imposing.
pookie linked a fabulous article which really says imv "life is a spectrum" and I believe no entrenched side owns a position so let's dialogue from there.
Actually it is interesting what the second piece mentioned people who don't see themselves as gendered. The latest models actually take that into account. It would be good if people could recognize that there are aspects of both of these ways of looking at things which are true, even if they seem to be in direct opposition:
Plus a model is just a model, and doesn't even come close to recognizing how individual each person is when it comes to identity and orientation.
i don't care about gender as it socialized into roles, concepts or actions.
i am heterosexual i know this. i figure i'm not special in the knowing every person knows to some degree.
i pretty much do whatever is interesting or like no gender barriers shut me down.
but my experiences as a gendered person both biologically and socially shape my essence of self.
my experiences as biologically born woman make me understand what being a female of a species is. my experiences do not let me know what being a male of the species is. nor can they ever.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/12/02/neoliberalism-patriarchy-gender-identity/
great article wish i could explain so well.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/12/02/neoliberalism-patriarchy-gender-identity/
great article wish i could explain so well.
"women do not have penises" and never did.
Smith i could not imagine forcing Jazz or Blaire into using a man's bathroom
but...in understanding patriarchy and the sick ass men out there i see too much room for exploitation of a public spaces, events, bathroom or change rooms and there's more sick ass men out there than trans women.
everytime i will choose the protection of women and women's right to men free spaces.
Side comment: Are bathrooms really the space of choice for predators? I admit I know very little about the subject but wouldn't classrooms, scout camps, bible retreats and such be a worse place than a bathroom? I mean where predators would prey on people?
It is a complete myth:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations...
https://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-t...
But again, I think the best way forward is for planners to redesign toilets and changerooms to accommodate everyone - single stall, or third unisex, just as we already have family changerooms. If some people are freaked out about it that is something to be considered, even if there is nothing to justify the way bigoted lawmakers are using this myth against people.
In our city this isn't just an issue for transpeople, but also for people from some cultures who are more concerned about modesty. Nobody should feel threatened in a changeroom; not trans people, nor anyone else.
bs smith i have personally had 2 experiences in the women's bathroom with sick ass men and watched a 3rd happen as i was walking up. it's a topic we talk about and share stories.
i don't think strange things just happen to me and my friends so i'm sure almost everyone woman has had at least one or 2 happen in their lives. the incidents don't get reported just too many and a we're desensitized to it.
This is in regards to a myth about trans people.
oh i dont feel any threat from transwomen in bathrooms have had long talks re make up and nails in club and pub bathrooms. never even thought they shouldn't be in the bathroom covering up their jaw shadow. most women are so in tune with threats they feel it and avoid. it's sick ass men who would use spaces made unsafe there's a reason why we go to the bathroom with others.
oh and read the twitter links in the article particularly the Langley council ones. you'll see an example of one of the creeps who want into women's spaces.
definitely won't be voting BC NDP with such a "stellar" VP of the party associated to this shit.
yup you can see the same thing here and see it's defeat coming too.
the BCNDP and the NDP will go no where if the women stop supporting them.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/12/28/australian-left-gives-away-anti-feminist-game/
Meghan Murphy has now been permabanned from Twitter.
On November 15, I woke up to find my Twitter account locked, on account of what the company described as “hateful conduct.” In order to regain access, I was made to delete two tweets from October. Fair enough, you might think. Concern about the tone of discourse on social media has been widespread for years. Certainly, many have argued that Twitter officials should be doing more to discourage the vitriol and violent threats that have become commonplace on their platform.
In this case, however, the notion that my commentary could be construed as “hateful” baffled me. One tweet read, simply, “Men aren’t women,” and the other asked “How are transwomen not men? What is the difference between a man and a transwoman?” That last question is one I’ve asked countless times, including in public speeches, and I have yet to get a persuasive answer. I ask these questions not to spread hate—because I do not hate trans-identified individuals—but rather to make sense of arguments made by activists within that community. Instead of answering such questions, however, these same activists insist that the act of simply asking them is evidence of hatred.
https://quillette.com/2018/11/28/twitters-trans-activist-decree/
The article goes on to describe how lesbians are being harrassed online, and even physically attacked in RL, for attempting to assert their boundaries, their right to women-only spaces, and weirdly, to show representations of female genitalia on their protest placards.
In Vancouver, Canada, where I live, a group of lesbians attended this year’s Dyke March wearing t-shirts with the word “Lesbian” written overtop a drawing of a uterus, and carrying signs featuring their “lesbian heroes.” Before the march began, they were approached by two members of the Vancouver Dyke March board, who told them they could not participate while wearing these t-shirts and carrying these placards, as they were “trans-exclusionary.”
Apparently, representations of female anatomy are hateful to the young and woke.
Apparently, representations of female anatomy are hateful to the young and woke.
The terms "hate" and "hate speech" seem to get thrown around a lot.
I don't believe that humans have a "soul", but it's not because I "hate" people who claim to have one. There appears to be no way to simply say "where is the proof of these claims?" without that being called "hate".
Sineed have you read the dyke March website/page?
their description of how "hateful and violent" those lesbians were is beyond belief.
there's going to be significant divisions coming up between BC people's over this nonsense where women are not allowed to hold an opinion about ourselves or it's hate. it's actually hate to negatively label and try to silence us.
i am actually voting BC Green if not Liberal in the next election. will not be voting NDP because imv they are supporting the fostering of hate against women and lesbians. i would rather deal with corruption than the fermenting of hate against women. there will be no support from my family or friends until the hate mongering and divisive party VP steps down and away.
some interesting points and stats in it.
I'm very happy with the new lavatory models I'm seeing more and more. Good example here at Jean-Talon Market, at some libraries etc. At the market, the loos open onto the outside, are large enough for a wheelchair or mobility vehicle and (shh) a bicycle; there is a changing table for babies. A small family or couple (of friends, lovers, whatever) could "go" together. The doors are translucent; I suppose for safety and to discourage "cottaging", though I've never seen much evidence of the latter. There are several at a nearby social space/pub where arts and other events are often organised; I was there for Alexandre Boulerice's confirmation as candidate (nomination, but there were no other contenders).
I do want to point out that MANY lesbians feel they are being sidelined by trans demands. Perhaps this is my age showing, as most of my lesbian friends are boomers or a bit younger, not 20 year olds. It is possible that millennials have a different outlook.
Nobody should feel marginalised, but means taken to accommodate gender diversity (gender, not sex) should not erase the important historical contributions lesbians have made to the broader feminist movement.
I am angry about the campaign against Meghan Murphy; not because I agree with everything she writes but because I think she is an important feminist voice and should not be silenced.
oh and read the twitter links in the article particularly the Langley council ones. you'll see an example of one of the creeps who want into women's spaces.
definitely won't be voting BC NDP with such a "stellar" VP of the party associated to this shit.
I am still unclear as to what individual you are talking about. Is the self righteously vindictive person in the Langley video the same person?
Kropotkin, no. they are long time friends and trans activists together. if you follow the links and read screen shots you will see.
Who are you talking about?
Thanks quizzical. So is gender fluid enough for me to be male some days and female on others depending on how I feel about myself?
Thanks quizzical. So is gender fluid enough for me to be male some days and female on others depending on how I feel about myself?
i don't know what your question has to do with this topic Kropotkin but in my belief if you want. i love Jeffree Star's reality with gender fluidity. he's a businessman but one of the girls.
imv if you're comfortable and assured about your humanity and who your are you dont try to take away from others reality or lives or impose on them your beliefs about your position on the gender spectrum. just be.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffree_Star
.
removed after reread.
It’s not a good article, quiz.
The first thing he does is make an appeal to authority - Dan Dennett said this about evolutionary science. (Let’s ignore for a minute that Dan is actually a philosopher - he’s an acquaintance of mine after appearing in one of my films.) This is immediately used to conflate evolutionary biology with evolutionary psychology. These are two VERY different things.
Its true that many species of animal display sex differentiated behaviours. However, rather than acknowledge that humans are neurologically different from most other animals, that there’s a tremendous amount of doubt about hard and fast sexual dimorphism in human brains, he just sort of glides past it. There are several points where he just doesn’t acknowledge much of the science that goes against his ideas, attributing disagreement with his conclusions to students on Facebook and people in the arts. Oh, and he includes anthropology in the arts, which it clearly isn’t. In fact, it’s the scientific study of HUMAN BEHAVIOUR. They don’t agree with his eco psych... No, no, they can’t be scientists. Because ant, wasp and rat guy MUST know more about their field than they do.
Theres also the bit where he goes on about sex. Gender expression is actually quite different. And again, we weird humans with our large and flexible brains are very different in that regard from other animals. Look at childcare. Other than nursing (except in remarkable circumstances), are there any childcare behaviours that men can’t or won’t perform if necessary? Of course not. This is just a dumb argument.
I guess we’re just lucky he didn’t ask us to learn about hierarchy from lobsters.
Evo psych is a lot of “just so” stories for people - mostly men - who are uncomfortable with the idea that they may be expected to be more flexible in their relationships and in the workplace. It’s a hot mess.
Quillette is not a great source of articles in any case. It’s reactionary white people, usually men, cloaking unprogressive ideas in a limited intellectualism, often veering wholesale into pseudo-intellectualism.
Again, as I’ve said before, we don’t know if there’s a biological basis for transgendered or not. From a human rights standpoint, it shouldn’t actually matter. And that’s what’s wrong with this argument. It’s not that biology is “wrong” or that one discipline trumps another - it just isn’t relevant to the problem at hand.
PS: A quick primer on evolutionary psychology.
funny ty timebandit my mom just finished saying almost same thing.
am going to reread it.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, though most of them, (I'm going to go back and re read) and there was something I'm a bit curious about. How many people here know people who are transitioning, or consider themselves transitioned. And by know people, I mean well enough to sit and have a talk/listen to them about thier life stories and struggles.
me. when i had my salon in Victoria over the 15 years several transitioning women came for their transitioning needs and maintenance. have gone from initial transition look through complete transition years later with a couple.
when you spend hours per appt waxing, doing nails, and make up you listen to everyone and everything and you learn. mainly you people are people on a spectrum or several spectrums.
I know a few, not especially well. A friend's daughter is a transwoman, and I knew her from the time she was in elementary school, but haven't seen her since she began her transition - they moved cities and so did I.
me. when i had my salon in Victoria over the 15 years several transitioning women came for their transitioning needs and maintenance. have gone from initial transition look through complete transition years later with a couple.
when you spend hours per appt waxing, doing nails, and make up you listen to everyone and everything and you learn. mainly you people are people on a spectrum or several spectrums.
ETA stories and struggles every woman has their own stories and struggles btw. some much worse than some transwomen i have met or know btw.
starting to parse whose struggles are more important or worse is not acceptable imv.
.03% of the populations, or less because not all transwomen are radical not even 50% probably, bad happenings or struggles are not more significant or important than 49% of the world's popultion.
Women are 52%
fair enough 52%
Women are the MAJORITY!!!
The areas of the world where the female population dips down to 48% are the countries which allow the widespread killing of baby girls because they are girls and the parents want boy babies.
Not actually true
Actually yes!
There are countries in the world where sons are preferred over daughters.
"Bhutan and India
The next countries on the list are located in Asia. Bhutan has a 46.3% female population. India reports that 48.2% of the population is female. This imbalance has been attributed to a cultural preference for boys and increased technology that can determine the baby’s sex before birth. As a result, people have been turning to sex-selected abortions to ensure they only give birth to sons. Sons are important in these societies because they inherit land, pass on the family name, and take care of parents in old age."
There are other documented reasons for lower female ratios around the world but female infanticide is a very serious problem and it needs to be taken very seriously.
the article mentions UAE as an example of having a low female ratio. The oil industry hires massive numbers of foreign workers all of whom are men because women are not allowed to hold jobs.
The overwhelming majority of countries with low female ratios stem from mysogynistic attitudes and practices according to this article.
China is another prime example. When allowed only one child per family, parents preferred boys over girls.
China preference for boy babies over girl babies.
From the article:
"On the mainland, a traditional preference for boys has encouraged selective abortions that resulted in 115 boys born for every 100 girls from 1994.
It peaked nationally in 2004 with 121.2 boys born for every 100 girls, and some provinces have seen the ratio climb as high as 130. But the figure has been falling for the last seven years and stood at 113.5 last year."
China and India are the world's two largest countries by population. This is two countries out of many who use abortions and selective technology to give parents sons over daughters.
This is an epic crisis and it is not to be trivialized or dismissed.
yes misfit there are bigger fish to fry than pronoun use and waste of taxpayers money on frivolous law suits about it.
