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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Corbyn isn't seen as "incompetent" and hasn't BEEN incompetent.  He has handled all the legitimate tests of his leadership well.  It's been repeatedly proven that Corbyn's supporters are not a band of antisemites and that Labour, therefore, had no major issue with antisemitism-it exists in tiny numbers, as in all parties, but it goes without saying that the prohibitive majority of antisemites are Tory/UKIP voters and activists and that none of the criticism Corbyn and his supporters have made of the Israeli government is antisemitic.   And Corbyn's interim government would hold the second referendum-a referendum that will never be approved by the House while the Tories are still in power, as every vote in the House thus far has proved-so he has done all he can on the EU issue-you've been told over and over again why Labour cannot, under any possible leader, go all out Remain.

All of Corbyn's policy ideas are popular.

It's been proved he never supported any of the groups he was accused of supporting.

And he was the ONLY party leader to actually spend time talking to the elderly veterans at the Cenotaph, so it didn't matter that he didn't dress in the official garb of the politicians who still think war is moral.

He's a good speaker, and is the first honest, decent human being to lead a political party in the UK since...possibly ever.

The only reason the man has lost popularity is that the right wing of his party, the BBC, the "establishment" press and dupes of capitalism and militarism like yourself have spent four years slandering the man.

And here is why I say Labour cannot win the next election with a "moderate"(i.e., a Tory, since there are no major differences on the issues between Boris Johnson and Iraq War apologists like Tom Watson and Yvette Cooper), is that, since such a figure could ONLY win the leadership if the PLP barred all left-wing candidates from the ballot-the Labour base WANTS the party to be anti-austerity, anti-corporate and antiwar-and therefore, no candidate elected on a leadership ballot where only "moderates" were allowed.  No moderate could ever connect with the wishes and values of the majority of the party.  No one who doesn't connect with those values can be credible AS the leader of the party. 

Since a "moderate"(Tory)can only be elected leader in a 2010-style rigged ballot, every young voter who was drawn to the party by Corbyn would instantly go away-probably to the Greens-and since other voters who hadn't voted Labour in the past would suddenly start supporting the party if it had another leader who was an anti-Left warmonger, it would therefore be mathematically impossible for any leader the PLP would approve of to beat the Tories at an election.

What the PLP were SUPPOSED to do after the 2016 leadership vote was to finally, FINALLY, do what they always demanded the Left do under leaders like Wilson and Blair-to demonstrate party loyalty when the party, by legitimate, democratic means, doesn't do what they want.

Can you at least admit the PLP had no valid reason to refuse to do that? 

That nothing is better, and that there's no chance for anything TO be better, as a result of the PLP spending four years sabotaging and pissing on Corbyn and the majority of the party whose principles he represents?

And why should he HAVE to fight for a second referendum while the Tories are still in power when it can't happen?  Why is the damn second referendum more important than ending this nightmare of a government?

Putting the second referendum above all else-especially since the polls show that a second referendum would not be a certain victory for the Remain side-the most recent poll had it 40% Remain, 38% Leave, the rest undecided, which means Farage has an excellent chance of getting a second Leave victory-thus making no-deal Brexit unavoidable, since it would be impossible for the Remain forces to keep fighting for Remain if Leave won again.

Since a Remain victory is far from a certainty, why put a second referendum WITHOUT a change of government ahead of all other concerns?

Your insistence that trying to get a second referendum without a change of government strongly suggests, in fact, that you don't WANT the Tories removed from power at all.

Unfortunately, Tom Watson, the Tory YOU would prefer to see leading the party, clearly agrees with you-which is why, given all else that he has done, Watson has clearly earned de-selection in his constituency-his constituency party hates everything he has done for the last four years-and probably expulsion as well.

Get rid of him and Hodge, get the rest of the PLP to admit that Corbyn and his supporters never deserved the antisemitism slur, and Labour's poll ratings would start to rise again almost instantly.  

If you've not noticed, even with every slander and lie spread about the man and the majority of the party who support the policies he advocates, Labour has been in the lead in at least three polls in the last month.

That fact, by itself, should have caused those members of the PLP who actually want the party to win the next election to stop undermining their leader.   The reason it hasn't is that the PLP doesn't want to win the election and cares only about re-establishing "centrist"(i.e., all-but-Tory)control of the party.  The Labour Party is the PLP's Vietnamese villages-they are willing to destroy it to "save it"-and by "save it", they mean "make it theirs and no one else's again".   
Never mind that Labour will never again win an election with anybody that crowd of arrogant backstabbers would approve of.

nicky

What 3 polls in the last month has Labour been ahead in Ken?

I count one out of about 20.

Kantar15–19 AugGB1,13342%28%15%5%0%0%3%1%5%1%14%YouGov/The Times13–14 AugGB1,62530%21%20%4%1%1%8%0%14%2%9%BMG/The IndependentTBCTBCTBC31%25%19%TBCTBC1%TBC0%12%TBC6%ComRes/The Daily Telegraph9–11 AugGB2,01131%27%16%3%0%1%4%0%16%2%4%Survation6–11 AugUK2,04028%24%21%4%0%–3%–15%4%4%
10 AugRichard Braine becomes leader of UKIP[7]Opinium/The Observer8–9 AugGB2,00331%28%13%4%1%1%5%0%16%0%3%YouGov/The Times5–6 AugGB1,62831%22%21%4%0%0%7%0%14%1%9%
1 AugBrecon and Radnorshire by-election[8]YouGov/The Times29–30 JulGB2,06632%22%19%4%1%0%8%0%13%1%10%Ipsos MORI26–30 JulGB1,00734%24%20%4%1%1%6%0%9%1%10%ComRes/Britain Elects26–28 JulGB2,00429%30%16%3%1%1%5%0%15%2%1%Deltapoll/The Mail on Sunday25–27 JulGB2,00130%25%18%4%1%1%4%2%14%1%5%YouGov/The Sunday Times25–26 JulGB1,69731%21%20%5%1%0%8%0%13%1%10%Opinium/The Observer24–26 JulGB2,00630%28%16%5%1%1%5%0%15%1%2%ComRes/Sunday Express24–25 JulGB2,02928%27%19%3%1%1%4%0%16%0%1%YouGov/The Times23–24 JulGB1,71525%19%23%4%1%1%9%0%17%1%2%
23 JulBoris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party, and Prime Minister the next day
22 JulJo Swinson becomes leader of the Liberal Democrats[9]YouGov/The Times16–17 JulGB1,74925%21%20%4%

Kantar 15–19 Aug GB 1,133 42% 28% 15% 5% 0% 0% 3% 1% 5% 1% 14%

YouGov/The Times 13–14 Aug GB 1,625 30% 21% 20% 4% 1% 1% 8% 0% 14% 2% 9%

BMG/The Independent TBC TBC TBC 31% 25% 19% TBC TBC 1% TBC 0% 12% TBC 6%

ComRes/The Daily Telegraph 9–11 Aug GB 2,011 31% 27% 16% 3% 0% 1% 4% 0% 16% 2% 4%

Survation 6–11 Aug UK 2,040 28% 24% 21% 4% 0% – 3% – 15% 4% 4%

10 Aug Richard Braine becomes leader of UKIP[7]

Opinium/The Observer 8–9 Aug GB 2,003 31% 28% 13% 4% 1% 1% 5% 0% 16% 0% 3%

YouGov/The Times 5–6 Aug GB 1,628 31% 22% 21% 4% 0% 0% 7% 0% 14% 1% 9%

1 Aug Brecon and Radnorshire by-election[8]

YouGov/The Times 29–30 Jul GB 2,066 32% 22% 19% 4% 1% 0% 8% 0% 13% 1% 10%

Ipsos MORI 26–30 Jul GB 1,007 34% 24% 20% 4% 1% 1% 6% 0% 9% 1% 10%

ComRes/Britain Elects 26–28 Jul GB 2,004 29% 30% 16% 3% 1% 1% 5% 0% 15% 2% 1%

Deltapoll/The Mail on Sunday 25–27 Jul GB 2,001 30% 25% 18% 4% 1% 1% 4% 2% 14% 1% 5%

YouGov/The Sunday Times 25–26 Jul GB 1,697 31% 21% 20% 5% 1% 0% 8% 0% 13% 1% 10%

Opinium/The Observer 24–26 Jul GB 2,006 30% 28% 16% 5% 1% 1% 5% 0% 15% 1% 2%

ComRes/Sunday Express 24–25 Jul GB 2,029 28% 27% 19% 3% 1% 1% 4% 0% 16% 0% 1%

YouGov/The Times 23–24 Jul GB 1,715 25% 19% 23% 4% 1% 1% 9% 0% 17% 1% 2%

23 Jul Boris Johnson becomes leader of the Conservative Party, and Prime Minister the next day

22 Jul Jo Swinson becomes leader of the Liberal Democrats[9]

YouGov/The Times 16–17 Jul GB 1,749 25% 21% 20% 4%

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Ok, not quite in the last month, but there were SEVEN polls conducted between June 19-20 and July 26-28 which showed a Labour lead.  That should have been the moment when the Labour Right stopped trying to bring Corbyn down and replace him with a reactionary:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdo...

And since Boris is surging as the hard-Brexit candidate, it is now certain that Labour can gain nothing by putting the unwinnable fight to get the current House to approve a second referendum.  Labour is already doing all that the hardline Remainers can reasonably ask of it by committing to a second referendum once the interim government is in power for its 50 days.  You know perfectly well that Labour cannot go further than that without losing every seat in the North and Northeast of England to the Brexit Party. 

NDPP

WATCH: BoJo Gets 30 Days To Skirt No-Deal Brexit - Galloway

https://twitter.com/RT_America/status/1164584404225859584

"Merkel giving Johnson 30 days for solution to avoid No-Deal Brexit."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And a reminder to everyone:  if the votes for a second referendum haven't been found while the Tories remain in power, they aren't GOING to be found while the Tories are in power.   We already know that, even if Labour made it a three-line-whip to back a second referendum while the Tories remain in power, ever Labour Leave MP will keep voting Leave.  Given that we all know that, what is the POINT of demanding that Labour try to get a second referendum without bringing down the government?  Why Corbyn insist on doing what we all know can't BE done?

And why wouldn't getting second referendum, as the UK would get under a 50-day-interim government led by Corbyn until a snap election, be enough to get the Labour Remain types off of the man's case?

Why should keeping Corbyn out of power, even as simply an interim prime minister, be more important than saving the country from Boris Johnson?

The man is not incompent and he is not evil.

This is where Corbyn-hatred becomes a lethal pathology within the Labour Right.

Driving out Jeremy and all who support what he stands for(a group which still clearly makes up an overwhelming majority of paid Labour members and supporters, and Labour voters as well)is more important to the Corbynites than the election of a Labour government.  Doesn't that strike even the Corbyn-haters on this board as sick?

 

Aristotleded24
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I believe that in the next polls, Jo Swindon's bloodymindedness about Corbyn will likely produce a significant drop in the LibDem vote share-especially since her bloodymindedness, if she stays with it, is going to make it all but impossible to get a second referendum at all and will thus ensure no-deal Brexit.  

NDPP

Germany's Merkel Tells UK Government No Brexit Concessions - Labour's Corbyn Steps Up Calls For Caretaker Govt

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/08/22/brex-a22.html

"...No political outcome to this unprecedented crisis can be excluded, given what is at stake for Britain and the EU under conditions of mounting tensions between the major powers and trading blocs internationally...

Blairite columnist Poly Toynbee wrote that while his 'equivocation on Brexit continues...Corbyn may yet be the one to lead the escape from Brexit. The ruling elite could be assurred that he is not the bogeyman of Tory propaganda; the red demon about to turn Britain into Venezuela...Nothing in his broadly social-democratic plans has come close to the revolutionary explosion Johnson intends in 10 weeks time.' Corbyn as the head of a caretaker regime would be 'his finest hour, as the moderate compromiser putting his country first when others refused and would send his chances of winning the election soaring up in the polls.'

For all Toynbee's flannel about a Corbyn election victory, the aim of the Blairites is to first prevent a no-deal Brexit, followed by ousting Corbyn as party leader and then forming a pro-EU government of 'national unity'.

nicky

Wrong again Ken

all the recent polls show Lib Dem vote firming up. This article makes the point this is so precisely because most peope agree w Swindon that Corbyn is unacceptable as PM.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/23/if-bjohnson-is-planning-an-election-the-numbers-continue-to-look-good/

You make the feeble point that the Labour right wd rather lose an election than see Corbyn as PM.Surely it is more accurate to say that Corbyn would prefer Labour lose with him as leader than see Labour win with another leader

NorthReport
josh

nicky wrote:

Wrong again Ken

all the recent polls show Lib Dem vote firming up. This article makes the point this is so precisely because most peope agree w Swindon that Corbyn is unacceptable as PM.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/23/if-bjohnson-is-planning-an-election-the-numbers-continue-to-look-good/

You make the feeble point that the Labour right wd rather lose an election than see Corbyn as PM.Surely it is more accurate to say that Corbyn would prefer Labour lose with him as leader than see Labour win with another leader

The Kantar poll had the LibDem at 15%.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Wrong again Ken

all the recent polls show Lib Dem vote firming up. This article makes the point this is so precisely because most peope agree w Swindon that Corbyn is unacceptable as PM.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/23/if-bjohnson-is-planning-an-election-the-numbers-continue-to-look-good/

You make the feeble point that the Labour right wd rather lose an election than see Corbyn as PM.Surely it is more accurate to say that Corbyn would prefer Labour lose with him as leader than see Labour win with another leader

It has never been about Corbyn's ego.  What the anti-Corbynites can't understand is that the man is probably the most deeply humble figures in the English-speaking political world.  

I think that's your real issue with him.

You knew the whole time there wasn't a significant incidence of antisemitism among Corbyn's supporters-that in the UK antisemitism is largely a right-wing vice-and that Corbyn was as strongly against antisemitism as he was against any other form of bigotry.

You knew that coming out for a second referendum was as far as he can take the party on the EU issue, that Labour can't adopt an all-out Remain position without fatally splitting itself.  You also knew that a second referendum is just as likely to produce another Leave victory as it is a Remain victory.

You knew that Corbyn didn't deserve to be destroyed over either issue.

You knew that nobody the PLP would accept as leader could possibly unify the party for victory, enunciate any real alternative to the Tory program, or ever acheive any personal popularity.

So you've developed this spiteful delusion-why have almost all of your posts about Corbyn BEEN nasty and spiteful, btw?  The man isn't evil-that it goes without saying that Corbyn should go, yet he hangs on solely out of ego.  

If it really was obvious that the man was driven solely by ego, and it was really obvious that he would lose at the next general election, wouldn't an ego-driven person stand down just to avoid the risk of electoral failure?  

Could it not be argued that Corbyn is staying on out of the opposite of ego-out of a humble, determined commitment to what his supporters stand for-his supporters are most of the party, after all-that he carries on out of simply commitment to the fight for a better world?

If you oppose Corbyn, that is one thing, and you have the right to do so-but why can you not oppose him without bile?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Could it not be argued that Corbyn is staying on out of the opposite of ego-out of a humble, determined commitment to what his supporters stand for-his supporters are most of the party, after all-that he carries on out of simply commitment to the fight for a better world?

If you oppose Corbyn, that is one thing, and you have the right to do so-but why can you not oppose him without bile?

nicky is just projecting. He has no idea of what it is like to not be motivated solely by egotism, or even that such a thing is possible for a human being, so he projects that onto everyone else in his mind, Corbyn being the current example.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Could it not be argued that Corbyn is staying on out of the opposite of ego-out of a humble, determined commitment to what his supporters stand for-his supporters are most of the party, after all-that he carries on out of simply commitment to the fight for a better world?

If you oppose Corbyn, that is one thing, and you have the right to do so-but why can you not oppose him without bile?

nicky is just projecting. He has no idea of what it is like to not be motivated solely by egotism, or even that such a thing is possible for a human being, so he projects that onto everyone else in his mind, Corbyn being the current example.

That makes perfect sense.  And if nicky is in tune with the anti-Corbyn Labour MPs-a group whose organizing principles are arrogance, dishonesty, treachery and antidemocratic elitism, of course he would assume that neither Corbyn nor anyone else in the human race could have core values and an approach to politics not driven by conspiratorial hatred.

NDPP

"Come on MSM. Where is your coverage? 3 years off a year of protesting and I am yet to read a single article by the English media coverage the full extent of what has happened and is still going on in Paris." [Averting the eyes from Paris  is necessary to support EU neoliberalism and  'Remain'.]

https://twitter.com/nrm93x7/status/1165262959934922753

 

How the EU Attacks The Right To Strike

https://twitter.com/KateHoeyMP/status/1164816313228746752

"Labour Party Trade Unionists should read this on how the EU is not the workers' friend. Why is Jeremy Corbyn not saying this?"

Obvious question. Obvious answer. Blairism continues alive and well in UK Labour. See Tony Benn on EU.

NorthReport

Bingo!

Boris Johnson stakes future on Donald Trump after Brexit. The gamble may break Britain

However while the world has moved on, Euroskeptics have not.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/24/uk/johnson-trump-brexit-g7-gbr-intl/index.html

NorthReport

 

Who knew!

UKers will not forgive the DUP for being a party to this con job which is going to destroy the poor in the UK.

With these right-wingers  the less privileged have not seen anything yet!

Boris Johnson seeks legal advice on five-week parliament closure ahead of Brexit

Secret plan to block any delay in leaving EU is likely to anger European leaders at G7 summit

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/24/johnson-seeks-legal-advice-parliament-closure

cco

NorthReport wrote:

UKers will not forgive the DUP for being a party to this con job which is going to destroy the poor in the UK.

If they can forgive its armed wing for over 400 murders, including one that happened during the election campaign, something tells me Brexit's not going to be high on the list of concerns to denounce the DUP over.

nicky

Average of last seven polls measuring Corbyn’s approval rating:

approve:        19%

disapprove:   63%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

cco wrote:
NorthReport wrote:

UKers will not forgive the DUP for being a party to this con job which is going to destroy the poor in the UK.

If they can forgive its armed wing for over 400 murders, including one that happened during the election campaign, something tells me Brexit's not going to be high on the list of concerns to denounce the DUP over.

More to the point, the DUP doesn't NEED the UK to forgive it-all it has to do is to satisfy its electoral base, which represents about 37% of the voters in Northern Ireland.  The FPTP electoral system gives the DUP slightly more than half the seats in N.I., and that's all it cares about.   And all it has to do to keep that base satisfied and turning out at the polls is continue to make viciously intolerant "religious right" stands on social issues and perpetually repeat the canard that a unified Ireland-or really, even the preservation of the N.I. Assembly, a body which gives the Catholic/Nationalist/pro-Irish community in N.I. a limited share of political power in N.I.-will somehow result in the bloodsoaked persecution of pro-British "Protestants"(in N.I., religious labels are far more about national allegiance than theology).

 

nicky
Aristotleded24

Of course that's the case. If the only issue you care about is Brexit, then the Conservatives and the Brexit Party are for you if you are in favour, and the Liberal Democrats are for you if you are against. There's absolutely nothing Labour can do on this issue to take people from either camp.

nicky

Corbyn certainly hasnt figured out what to do on Brexit which is why Labour is bleeding so badly. 

Hopefully the Labour Conference next minth will force a coherent policy on Corbyn.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Corbyn certainly hasnt figured out what to do on Brexit which is why Labour is bleeding so badly. 

Hopefully the Labour Conference next minth will force a coherent policy on Corbyn.

He's offered to stand as Prime Minister just long enough to get a Brexit deal and then call an election to let people make their own judgements about him. Funny how all the crazy anti-Brexiters won't even accept that compromise at all.

This is the best of both worlds for the rabid Remainers. They can avoid a no-deal Brexit, and if Corbyn fails miserably in the subsequent general election, the "Corbyn nightmare" can be over by Christmas time.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Corbyn certainly hasnt figured out what to do on Brexit which is why Labour is bleeding so badly. 

Hopefully the Labour Conference next minth will force a coherent policy on Corbyn.

It's enough that he's pledged to a second referendum.  He can't go all-out Remain without losing the North and Northeast of England for the rest of eternity.  

It's not possible to get a second referendum while the Tories remain in power.  Everyone knows that.  Why should he push for something that can't happen? 

And the truth is, no possible successor to Corbyn as Labour leader could possibly get any more Labour Leave MPs to become Labour Remain MPs.  Every current Labour Leave MP is unchangeable.  If nothing has changed any of their votes, nothing can change them now.

And since the EU issue is really only the primary concern of comfortable middle-class types-the working and non-working for are not obsessed with staying in the EU at all costs-why shouldn't Corbyn be able to talk, instead, about his popular and necessary program for social and economic transformation?  About his crucial commitment to get the UK out of any further military interventions against the Arab/Muslim world?  About the need to eradicate poverty?

Why not let issues that actually affect the many be the Labour message?

NDPP

G7: Donald Trump Hails Boris Johnson as 'The Right Man' To Deliver Brexit

https://youtu.be/wnPND--Npfg

G7:"US President Donald Trump hailed UK MP Boris Johnson as the 'right man' to deliver Brexit this morning as the pair met in Biarritz..."

 

Boris Johnson on Brexit

https://youtu.be/9DD_Qm3ptqk

"Boris Johnson has told ITV News there will be 'substantial sums' for the UK to spend on 'priorities' in the event of a no-deal Brexit." (UK's bill of divorcement to the EU is around 40 billion pounds. Stiff and run is free.)

 

Boris Johnson Gives Update as G7 Draws To A Close

https://youtu.be/FzUzJtJXRMU

BoJo, the Donald, a fragmenting EU and a major recession fast approaching - the 'free world' is looking a bit wobbly what...?

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

Why should he push for something that can't happen? 

To maintain the support of approximately 2/3 of Labour voters who support remaining in the EU and prevent them from switching to parties like the Liberal Democrats and SNP in the imminent election? Sometimes politics is more about optics than reality?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Even though it's impossible to actually get the second referendum without bringing the current government down?  Even though everyone KNOWS it's impossible to get a second referendum without bringing the current government down?  

And remember, Labour has no chance of winning the next election without the Labour Leave voters, and that nothing Corbyn could offer those voters if the party went all-out Remain could possibly hold them in the Labour camp?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

There is simply no reason to treat the EU issue as it it's more important than full employment, economic justice, the end of austerity and the end of the unwinnable wars against the Arab/Muslim world.  The only voters who center Remain are those who live in comfort and security, those who don't want a UK in which there is no poverty and inequality.

JKR

I think it’s important not to underestimate how big an issue Brexit is for Labour. With Brexit being the major issue in the UK during the last year, Labour has plummeted in the polls to low levels seldom experienced by the party during recent memory. A recession now also seems to be in the offing and if a no-deal Brexit and a recession occur simultaneously, Labour could be in big trouble if they are linked with Brexit and the pro-Leave side.

josh

The best think for Labour politically is for Brexit to become a reality.  Get the divisive issue off the table and let the Toties deal with the fallout.

nicky

I agree with Josh. 

Corbyn is manouvering for a no deal Brexit for perceived political benefit down the road. 

He really has little regard for the economic health of Britain that will be devastated bh Brexit or the wishes of a majority of the country? Norbthe vast majority of Labouf members and supporters.

what a complete disgrace he is

JKR

I agree that it would be best if the Conservatives wore all of the negative fallout of Brexit and the possible upcoming recession and Labour wear none of it. I don’t think there’s a simple solution for Labour on how they can make that happen, especially with other parties like the Liberal Democrats, SNP, and Greens, wanting to saddle Labour with as much blame for the negative consequences of Brexit as possible.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

I agree with Josh. 

Corbyn is manouvering for a no deal Brexit for perceived political benefit down the road. 

He really has little regard for the economic health of Britain that will be devastated bh Brexit or the wishes of a majority of the country? Norbthe vast majority of Labouf members and supporters.

what a complete disgrace he is

That's not true.  He prefers soft Brexit-which would keep the good aspects of EU membership while sparing the UK the bad aspects-I assume you'd agree that there is no reason the EU to be trying to restrict the economic and social investment policies of EU member countries, that it's not the EU's place to force all countries to run on a program of permenent austerity capitalism.

He isn't a closet Leaver.  If he had been, he wouldn't have campaigned heavily, and honestly, for Remain.  And it's been repeatedy proved that there was nobody could have done or said anything to win the referendum for the Remain side.

If you really want to stop Brexit, or at least limit it to soft Brexit, then you need to recognize that there would need to be radical change in the way the EU works, that the EU has to cease to restrict what any EU country wishes to do on economics and spending.   Genuine Labour policies, and a government run on caring, humane values, can't happen in the EU status quo.

All Remain parties need to commit to Remain and Reform, and Remain and Defy(on economic and spending issues)until reform occurs.

BTW, what would be so terrible about soft Brexit?  There would still be extensive trade with EU countries and there's the rest of the world to trade with.

It simply isn't possible for either Corbyn or anyone who might replace him to put Labour into an all-out Remain position, so please stop demanding something that can't happen.  It isn't worth the nastiness you put into it.

And it's not a "disgrace" that Corbyn hasn't chosen to do something no Labour leader could ever manage to do.

NDPP

The LeFT Case For Leave

https://leftcampaign.org/2019/08/22/martin-hall-the-left-case-for-leave/

"...If activists want to challenge neoliberalism and its symptoms, a task that can sometimes appear monumental, then a good place to begin with is a struggle against the EU, which alone in the world, as Tony Benn pointed out, enshrines capitalism in its constitution in a state-like organisation, but one without a mechanism for political contestation. Remain and Reform is an empty slogan. There has been forty years to try this approach and year on year, the centre has grown more powerful, democracy has been eclipsed and austerity imposed in exchange for bail-outs, most strongly within the Eurozone.

No deal, soft deal and hard exit are fake choices. None of these terms existed prior to the vote in June 2016, and were introduced into the language by a capitalist class seeking to limit the damage to itself that the Leave vote could bring about. LeFT seeks a clean break, which is what the people voted for. Institutions that the EU has hollowed out into little more than debating chambers will become relevant again and susceptible to mass action, protests and pressure. This is what many MPs in Westminster, Holyrood and Cardiff fear. It's a huge opportunity for our labour movement..."

 

Analysis: Soft Brexit Is More Likely Than Ever, Thanks To Boris Johnson's New Hardline Cabinet - Here's Why

https://www.news24.com/Analysis/analysis-soft-brexit-is-more-likely-than...

"I think he will soon signal his willingness for Britain to remain in both the single market and customs union as part of a lengthy transition period - possibly as long as five years - before a UK-EU free trade deal is agreed..."

 

The EU is An Empire - Wolfgang Streeck On Why the EU is a Deplorable Institution That We Must Leave

https://www.spiked-online/2019/03/29/the-eu-is-an-empire/

"To me there is no left in Europe and the United States that is more demoralised and defeatist than the pro-EU left in the UK..."

[Canada is alas even worse. ]

contrarianna

In the absence of any credible attack from the rolodex of anti-Corbyn smears,  Polls-are-God Nicky ludicrously would have you believe that his relentless posting of polls and political betting sites represents some form of ethical argument.

By his standard of numerical valuation, BoJo or Farage is a preferable leader--which may be the case for Nicky. 

Since everyone is called "wrong" who disagrees with him, I don't feel remiss in posting, yet again, Nicky's pathetic record on being "right"--since he persistently, and shamelessly, ignores it. 

Here's Nicky in August 2016, before the 2017 General Election and Corbyn/Labour's gain of 36 seats:

Mon, 2016-08-08 15:51  

NICKY:

18% approval ratings. 80% of his colleagues voting non-confidence. A sure Conservative landslide looming.

Any responsible leader would step aside for the good of the party.

Instead Corbyn seems intent on dragging his party with him into some Gotterdammerung [my German isn't that good; does that mean 36 more seats?]to satisfy some bizarre political deathwish.

http://rabble.ca/comment/5119241#comment-5119241

After disssapearing for months after that humiliation, Nicky returned with the exact same behaviour.

=======

That said, Corbyn will indeed have a MUCH more difficult time this time around since multiple state-based agencies and special interests are fully engaged in smear generation now. Dirty tricks and deception through the web and MSM platforms are enlisted to prevent any real progresssive candidate, aka "enemy of the state", from getting close the corporate state's levers of power.  Huge quantities of money and manpower is involved in that campaign. 

The power elite were less prepared and engaged when surprised by the last election. That clearly isn't happening again.

Since this campaign of destroying the current anomaly of a progressive Labour leader is also embraced by the self-proclaimed spawn of Thatcher, New Labour with its Blairite backbiters, that party which has acquired the name of "Labour" deserves nothing but oblivion if successful (as they likely will be) in their treachery:

Craig Murray:

....Jeremy Corbyn represents the only realistic chance the people of England and Wales have been given in decades, to escape from the neo-liberal economics that have impoverished vast swathes of the population. But he leads a parliamentary party which is almost entirely comprised of hardline neo-liberal adherents.

The majority of the parliamentary Labour party are the people who brought in academy schools, high student tuition fees, PFI, who introduced more privatisation into the health service than the Tories have, and who brought you the Iraq and Afghan Wars. They abstained on the Tory austerity benefit cuts and on May’s “hostile environment” immigration legislation. They support Trident nuclear missiles. Many hanker after bombing Syria, and most are members of Labour Friends of Israel.

Even before the current disintegration of UK political structures, there was no way that these Labour MPs were ever going to support Corbyn in power in seeking to return the UK towards the mainstream of European social democracy. They have spent the last four years in undermining Corbyn at every turn and attempting to return Labour to the right wing political Establishment agenda. In the current fluid state of UK politics, with sections of Labour MPs already having split off and others threatening to, it is even more important that the very large majority of Labour MPs are replaced by people who genuinely support the views and principles for which Jeremy Corbyn stands....

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/06/a-moment-in-history/

nicky

Contrararianna, you are quite right to point out my predictions before the last election. They proved to be wrong.

But i have mo hestitation in making a similar prediction this time because things have changed.

Last time May flamed out in the campaign. Proving to be wooden and remote. We cant count on Johnson repeating her mistakes.

Corbyn’s negative image had been baked in. He is not liked or trusted. Only a slim sliver of the public thinkhe is even minimally competent to be PM.

Brexit is now the overriding issue , unlike last election, and Corbyn’s conduct of this file has been incoherent at best. As a result Labour is shedding supportesers and looks to acieve its worst electoral result in a century.

This can be avoided if Corbyn smells the. Coffee and steps aside. Polling shows that under any other leader Labour prospects would soar by at least 10%

it has often been said that generals make the mistake of fighting the last war. Corbynistas in the UK and on Babble are also making this mistake.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The only way it would be reasonable to demand that Corbyn stand down would be for party to either abolish the MP nominations requirement for the leadership ballot-which would be only fair, since their is no reason for the MPs to be the ones who decide who is allowed to stand for the leadership-and for all anti-Corbyn(and by definition anti-poor, anti-democracy, pro-austerity and pro-war)Labour MPs to agree to stand down at the next election, while agreeing until then to:

A)Admit that everything they've done to sabotage and undermine Corbyn and force his supporters out of the party was indefensibly destructive and wrong, and make unqualified apologies to Corbyn and the majority of the party who stand with him in insisting that Labour must be anti-austerity, anti-poverty, anti-greed, antiwar other than to defend the UK from external attack;  B) agree to give full and absolute support to whoever won a leadership campaign in which the MPs did not get a veto on who was allowed to stand-this last part being especially crucial, since it goes without saying that a truly democratic leadership election would replace Corbyn with a leader whose views were equally radical and egalitarian.

But we both know the PLP won't do anything like that.  The PLP doesn't care about beating the Tories and ending the right wing nightmare; it cares only about reasserting the arrogant delusion that the party belongs to the PLP, and that no one else should have any say or any place in it.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Brexit is now the overriding issue

For well-off, priviledged people like yourself who've never had any real problems or struggles Brexit may be the over-riding issue. I'm more concerned about things such as climate change, poverty, housing, health care, education. and environmental protection than Brexit.

nicky wrote:
Coffee and steps aside. Polling shows that under any other leader Labour prospects would soar by at least 10%

And the polls accurately predicted that Prime Minister Paul Martin led the Liberals to the largest super-majority in Canadian history with major breakthroughs in Quebec and Alberta, obliterating all the other Opposition parties and becoming the only party to come out of that election with official party status.

nicky

Aristotle, where do you get the idea I am “well off”?

in any event Brexit will be a greater disaster for the less well-off than the wealthy who will insulated against its deprivations.

and ken , the PLP, contrary to your pretense, desperately di want to defeat the Tories. That is why so many Labour MPs wish to remove the Conservatives’ biggest electoral advantage - Jeremy Corbyn.  

 

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Aristotle, where do you get the idea I am “well off”?

You're entire argument boils down to "I hate Corbyn because he is bad and wrong on Brexit." Just seeing for myself and what people around me have to struggle with on a day-to-day basis, and thinking about how bad problems like climate change are, I cannot imagine that someone who is actually struggling or concerned about climate change would show such single-minded devotion to Brexit as you have. You won't even set aside your anti-Corbyn animus to talk about policy or what specifically is going on in Britain besides "Brexit and Corbyn are BAD!" It's hard to assume on that basis that you are having this discussion in good faith.

nicky wrote:
in any event Brexit will be a greater disaster for the less well-off than the wealthy who will insulated against its deprivations.

Of course that's ture. It's also true that the wealthy will continue to be well-off under the permanent austerity requirements of the EU if Britain had chosen to Remain. The wealthy are playing both sides of the Brexit question against each other to have people constantly at each other's thorats to distract them from dealing with the issues I just mentioned.

nicky wrote:
and ken , the PLP, contrary to your pretense, desperately di want to defeat the Tories. That is why so many Labour MPs wish to remove the Conservatives’ biggest electoral advantage - Jeremy Corbyn.

Nicky, one of the Labour splitters admitted to trying to undermine Corbyn during the campagin. It's one thing for candidates to distance themselves from a leader they know to be unpopular. Suppose that in the last election there were MPs on the campaign trail openly stating to voters to re-elect them on the basis that Mulcair would never be Prime Minister. Would you consider that to be an act of sabotage? I certainly would.

nicky

Aristotle, a couple weeks ago Ken linked that same interview as proof that the MP in question was trying to undermine Cirbyn during the election campaign. Except the interview is from Febrary of this year and references the election as being over.

even Ken admitted he was wrong about this. You should too.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

There had been quotes from Labour MPs DURING that campaign saying that very thing.  It's hairsplitting to make an issue of that specific interview having been after the election.

Clearly, the 2017 results should have ended the PLP's war against Corbyn.  Had the PLP stopped at that point, had they not joined in the antisemitism slur and used it to make the obscenely false allegation that Corbyn's supporters are a nest of Jew-hating maniacs-in truth it goes without saying that there is little antisemitism within the party and there has never been any greater incidence of antisemitism among Corbyn's supporters than among any other sector of the party.

As to what the PLP wants, here is the reality-the PLP knows that no one it allowed on a leadership ballot to replace Corbyn would ever be trusted or accepted as leader by the Labour rank-and-file, the people of the party, the paid members without whose passionate grassroots efforts no Labour victory is possible.  The PLP knows Corbyn did not cause the Leave victory, and that nothing he could have said, or done, could have changed a Leave victory to a Remain victory.  They know he was sincere in campaigning for Remain-and being sincere, that he could only campaign for it as he did-energetically, but honestly, and while admitting that good people have valid grievances against the EU and that Remainers need to address those.  They know they haven't even TRIED to address those issues, that they've made no commitment to reforming the EU's economic, spending and nationalization rules, and quite frankly, the PLP doesn't want those rules changed-the generation of MPs who are only in their seats now because either Blair or Kinnock, after he abandoned every socialist conviction he ever held between 1987 and 1992, imposed them as candidates, in constituencies Labour would have won in 1997 with any candidate standing on any manifesto have based their entire political identities on being more viciously antisocialist than Margaret Thatcher, and they would rather make sure Labour either loses elections-it was clearly the PLP's fault that Labour lost in 2017, since they refused to stop attacking Corbyn or even stop trying to force him out as leader even during the campaign, even when they knew they had an obligation to stop for the greater good of the party's chances-or keeps moving further and further to the right, even if it meant, as the votes to abstain on May's benefit cuts meant, that they were going to abandon all meaningful differences with the Conservatives, the party which is now their natural home,than to allow Labour to come to power freed of the constraints and betrayals Blair imposed on it.   These are people who should have done the decent thing and crossed the floor to the Tory bench, since they no longer have any Labour values.  The ONLY reason they refuse to do so is that doing that would mean letting their constituency parties finally nominate candidates who actually agree with the core values of the Labour Party.

They also know full well that Corbyn's "interim government" proposal is the ONLY way to get the second referendum they keep demanding-as has been proved, it's not possible to gain any more votes for a second referendum as long as the Tory government stays in power-and yet, they are so driven by vindictive, irrational hatred of Corbyn and are so obsessed with delegitimizing him as a possible prime minister that they would rather give up what they know is the last chance of stopping Brexit rather than stop demonizing and sabotaging the man.

What can this be called, this obsessive, corrosive, unjustifiable rage the PLP and you feel towards Corbyn, what else can this be called, at this stage of the game, but pathology?  Or a kind of intellectual addiction?

And why, even at the start, could you never, at any moment, give Corbyn a chance?  It's not as if anybody who stood against him in either leadership race had anything more to offer.  And you know full well that any possible Labour leader would have to take the choice Corbyn has taken on the EU-the position that remains official party policy?

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

There had been quotes from Labour MPs DURING that campaign saying that very thing.  It's hairsplitting to make an issue of that specific interview having been after the election.

Clearly, the 2017 results should have ended the PLP's war against Corbyn.  Had the PLP stopped at that point, had they not joined in the antisemitism slur and used it to make the obscenely false allegation that Corbyn's supporters are a nest of Jew-hating maniacs, when they knew that in truth there is little antisemitism within the party and there has never been any greater incidence of antisemitism among Corbyn's supporters than among any other sector of the party and no significant increase in antisemitism within the party during Corbyn's time as leader-had they accepted that the 2017 results put the leadership issue to rest, Labour, under Corbyn, would have a solid, probably insurmountable lead in the polls.

As to what the PLP wants, here is the reality-the PLP knows that no one it allows on a leadership ballot to replace Corbyn would ever be trusted or accepted as leader by the Labour rank-and-file, the people of the party, the paid members without whose passionate grassroots efforts no Labour victory is possible.  The PLP knows that any leader it approved of, after years of treating Corbyn as they have, would be seen as a puppet to the most reactionary forces in the UK  The PLP knows Corbyn did not cause the Leave victory, and that nothing he could have said, or done, could have changed a Leave victory to a Remain victory.  They know he was sincere and effective in campaigning for Remain-and being sincere, that he could only campaign for it as he did-energetically, but honestly, and while admitting that good people have valid grievances against the EU and that Remainers needed to address those if they wanted the Remain position to win.  They know that they were the ones who largely prevented either Corbyn or any other Remain figure from making the ONLY campaign pitch which had any chance at all of winning-Remain and Reform/Remain and Defy.  They know that, four years on, they haven't even TRIED to address any of the issues that drove the North and Northeast of England to vote overwhelmingly for Leave, that they've made no commitment to reforming the EU's economic, spending and nationalization rules.  And frankly, the PLP knows that it never intended to address those issues, because the PLP doesn't WANT those rules changed-the generation of MPs who are only in their seats now because either Blair or Kinnock, after he abandoned every socialist conviction he ever held between 1987 and 1992, imposed them as candidates, in constituencies Labour would have won in 1997 with any candidate standing on any manifesto have based their entire political identities on being more viciously antisocialist than Margaret Thatcher, they celebrate the reactionary EU rules on spending, taxation and nationalization as symbolic of the death grip they once had on the party, and they would rather make sure Labour either loses elections-it was clearly the PLP's fault that Labour lost in 2017, since they refused to stop attacking Corbyn or even stop trying to force him out as leader even during the campaign, even when they knew they had an obligation to stop for the greater good of the party's chances-or keeps moving further and further to the right, even if it meant, as the votes to abstain on May's benefit cuts meant, that they were going to abandon all meaningful differences with the Conservatives, the party which is now their natural home,than to allow Labour to come to power freed of the constraints and betrayals Blair imposed on it.   These are people who should have done the decent thing and crossed the floor to the Tory bench, since they no longer have any Labour values.  The ONLY reason they refuse to do so is that doing that would mean letting their constituency parties finally nominate candidates who actually agree with the core values of the Labour Party.

They also know full well that Corbyn's "interim government" proposal is the ONLY way to get the second referendum they keep demanding-as has been proved, it's not possible to gain any more votes for a second referendum as long as the Tory government stays in power-and yet, they are so driven by vindictive, irrational hatred of Corbyn and are so obsessed with delegitimizing him as a possible prime minister that they would rather give up what they know is the last chance of stopping Brexit rather than stop demonizing and sabotaging the man.

What can this be called, this obsessive, corrosive, unjustifiable rage the PLP and you feel towards Corbyn, what else can this be called, at this stage of the game, but pathology?  Or a kind of intellectual addiction?

And why, even at the start, could you never, at any moment, give Corbyn a chance?  It's not as if anybody who stood against him in either leadership race had anything more to offer.  And you know full well that any possible Labour leader would have to take the choice Corbyn has taken on the EU-the position that remains official party policy?

 

 

josh

The government has asked the Queen to suspend Parliament just days after MPs return to work in September - and only a few weeks before the Brexit deadline.

Boris Johnson said a Queen's Speech would take place after the suspension, on 14 October, to outline his "very exciting agenda".

But it means the time MPs have to pass laws to stop a no-deal Brexit on 31 October would be cut.

House of Commons Speaker John Bercow said it was a "constitutional outrage".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

 

nicky

Let’s hope Liz has more fortitude than Michelle Jean when she allowed Harper to prorogue in 2008

josh

Doubt she acts differently.

josh

The Queen approves order to suspend UK Parliament from early September to 14 October - just before Brexit deadline

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1166713424530870276

NorthReport
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

One thing is now clear:  Corbyn's interim government proposal is the ONLY chance to stop "no-deal Brexit" and the only way to get a second referendum.   Anyone who claims to be an opponent of "no-deal Brexit", but who places an insistence on forcing Corbyn out as Labour leader ahead of supporting the only chance of stopping "no-deal Brexit" forfeits any right to claim to be an opponent of "no-deal Brexit" at all.

If Corbyn's interim government proposal is scuppered, there is no chance of stopping no-deal Brexit at all.

And no one who came in as Corbyn's successor if he were forced to resign now would be able to stop Brexit without bringing down the Tory government, either.

It really IS that simple.

And one way or another, with prorogation, it may take a general strike to end the Tory era at all.

The Liberal Party of Canada could have brought down Harper in 2008 and replaced him with a progressive coalition government.  They refused to and paid a massive price at the next general election.

If the Liberal Democrats and the Blairites make the same mistake in UK politics now, they may see themselves wiped off the electoral map altogether.   We could see the deselection of dozens of anti-Corbyn Labour MPs, since their attitude may well guarantee the adoption of Open Selection at the upcoming Labour conference.  Once they are deselected, their constituency parties will choose the candidates they actually WANT, candidates who aren't obsessed with destroying their own leader out of a toxic blend of bloodyminded arrogance and overboiled sense of entitlement, and the candidates the CLP's actually want to select will win those seats in a walk.

Pride goeth before a fall,

 

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