UK's Keir Starmer: Is He The Leader Labour Needs?

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NorthReport
UK's Keir Starmer: Is He The Leader Labour Needs?
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

No.  Under Starmer, the Left all get expelled again, the policies go back to austerity at home and the sickeningly misnamed "humanitarian intervention" abroad, honesty and passion vanish, and the next election instantly becomes meaningless.

There's no good reason for Labour to ever again have a bland dismissive centrist who speaks in nothing but soundbites again.  

NorthReport

The reason I asked is that my hunch is Labour is not cutting with Corbyn, so alternative Leadership does indeed need to be explored

Obviously May is not going to be leading the Conservatives into the next election, and nothing like a fresh face to win elections, eh!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Labour can't gain any votes by telling socialists to go to hell or by supporting the bombing of Syria.   

 

NorthReport

I think Corbyn needs to step down if Labour for to have a chance at victory, because the objective is to win the election, as opposed to insisting that it is your way or the doorway. Politics is the art of compromise and one never gets everything one wants in any election. Some people would rather lose the election than compromise. Not me. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

If Corbyn stands down, it means the party is Blairite for the rest of eternity and it means Labour has no reason to exist.  There were clear votes in 2015 and 2017 to reject every part of the Blair legacy and Starmer would only represent the tiny, reactionary minority-virtually all of them MPs, since there is no grass-roots support for Labour not being socialist and not questioning militarism-who refuse to accept that Labour's policies and candidates should be decided by the people of the party, not by a discredited elite who haven't succeded at anything in fourteen years now.  There are no votes to be gained by Labour going back to the Nineties.  And there is no valid reason for anybody to still be obsessing about Brexit when it can't be prevented and when what matters is getting both the Tory party and Tory policies out of power.  Labour moderates aren't against Tory policies and should just stand down at the next election so their constituency parties can nominate candidates they actually agree with.

NorthReport

I was just asking about Starmer because I want Labour to win.

Regardless, I fundamentally disagree with your opinions on both Brexit and the Labour Party because they are why the Left don't win many elections in the scheme of things.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Labour lost the last two elections before Corbyn because it ran them the way the anti-Corbynites want Labour to run EVERY election.   Those outcomes prove that Labour can't ever win again running a bland, dismissive, centrist campaign that treats actual socialists like they're scum.

If it lost in 2010 and lost by a larger margin in 2015 doing things the way Corbyn's opponents want, why ever try running an election that way again?

And the plain fact is that soft Brexit-if it met Labour's five demands-would keep everything good in the EU while freeing the UK and Labour from everything bad.  There's no left case for staying in the EU and accepting its unchangeability.

NorthReport

That is exactly what the right-wing wants - nice choice of partners, eh!

Doesn't that tell you something in itself?

NorthReport

UK Recent Election History

2017 - Labour only received 262 seats and lost with Corbyn as Leader

2015 - Labour only received 232 seats and lost with Milibrand as Leader

2010 - Labour only won 258 seats and lost with Brown as Leader

2005 - Labour won 355 seats and won with Blair as Leader

2001 - Labour won 413 seats and won with Blair as Leader

It's not rocket science. Either you want to win, or you don't. 

If you don't win, you don't get any of your ideas accepted.

If you win, no matter who you are, you will still only get some of your ideas accepted. 

Labour will not win with Corbyn. For the good of progressives he should step down. 

 

NorthReport

And this is why Corbyn's approach is wrong and Labour is paying the price

Tories in for a Brexit party trouncing, while Remainers abandon Labour

Polling shows Nigel Farage’s party would defeat Tories in a general election, while Lib Dems become top choice for Remain voters

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/18/opinium-poll-conservatives-trounced-by-brexit-party-remainers-abandon-labour

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

UK Recent Election History

2017 - Labour only received 262 seats and lost with Corbyn as Leader

2015 - Labour only received 232 seats and lost with Milibrand as Leader

2010 - Labour only won 258 seats and lost with Brown as Leader

2005 - Labour won 355 seats and won with Blair as Leader

2001 - Labour won 413 seats and won with Blair as Leader

It's not rocket science. Either you want to win, or you don't. 

If you don't win, you don't get any of your ideas accepted.

If you win, no matter who you are, you will still only get some of your ideas accepted. 

Labour will not win with Corbyn. For the good of progressives he should step down. 

 

Labour would have won the elections Blair won no matter who led the party.  There never needed to be a renunciation of socialism and there never needed to be a commitment to be MORE militaristic than the Tories on foreign policy.  The voters were demanding neither.

Corbyn never deserved the sabotage campaign he has received from the MPs.  None of those who spent the last three years briefing against him or-as by campaigning against Labour in local elections and pushing for Corbyn's resignation during the 2017 general election even though it was impossible for a party to change leaders during an election campaign-Chuka Umunna did before finally admitting he wasn't Labour and never had been by helping invent a right-wing minor party.

Blair's approach was never the ONLY possible way for Labour to win.  And nobody would rally to the party if it kicked the socialists out again and its shadow cabinet started palling around with CEOs again.

Blair is the most hated man in UK politics, and he has disgraced himself by doing all he could to sabotage Corbyn, a man who never did anything to Blair and who only voted against the Labour whip on measures Labour had no good reason to be voting right wing on.  

And Brown and Miliband were carrying on exactly as Blair would have done, so their defeats were defeats Blair would have experienced, too.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

And this is why Corbyn's approach is wrong and Labour is paying the price

Tories in for a Brexit party trouncing, while Remainers abandon Labour

Polling shows Nigel Farage’s party would defeat Tories in a general election, while Lib Dems become top choice for Remain voters

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/18/opinium-poll-conservatives-trounced-by-brexit-party-remainers-abandon-labour

There's no good reason to try and stop Brexit when it's clearly a settled thing, and when nothing progressive would come of stopping it.  The EU can't be reformed-it will be exactly like it is now for the rest of eternity, and none of the tiny number of decent things about it-the things which would be preserved in Soft Brexit-outweigh the reactionary things that dominate the structure.

It was enough that Corbyn fought hard for Remain in the referendum.  

It's a waste of time to fight to stay in the EU.

NorthReport
NorthReport

Don't say you were not warned Ken that you are barking up the wrong tree.

Labour panic as Remain voters switch to Liberal Democrats

Polls makes Vince Cable’s party the favourite for Remainers and puts it in first place in London

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/18/labour-panic-remain-voters-switch-to-lib-dems

NorthReport

Looks like Labour is fiddling while Rome, er the UK burns. It's plan to see that Starmer is on the correct path here but is it now too late for Labour as the Liberal Democrats appear to to be the Go To party for the Remainers now.

Cross-party Brexit deal needs to include second referendum, says Sir Keith Starmer

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit/cross-party-brexit-deal-needs-to-include-second-referendum-says-sir-keith-starmer-1-4925775

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It goes without saying that Leave would win again in another referendum, so what is the point?

In what universe is staying in the right-wing EU more important than building a democratic socialist Britain?  The nightmare scenario is staying in the EU and the Tories staying in power.  That would be the end of hope.

NorthReport

On the contrary. I think Labour has blown it once again. Why are you aligning with right-wingers like Farage?

josh

Labour is leading in the polls.  Why do they need to change?

josh

There already was a Brexit vote.  How about implementing the voter’s decision?

cco

NorthReport wrote:

It's not rocket science. Either you want to win, or you don't. 

If you don't win, you don't get any of your ideas accepted.

If you abandon all your ideas in order to win, you don't get any of them accepted, either.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

NorthReport wrote:

I was just asking about Starmer because I want Labour to win.

Regardless, I fundamentally disagree with your opinions on both Brexit and the Labour Party because they are why the Left don't win many elections in the scheme of things.

Of course the other view is what is the point of winning an election if you have to give up the believes at the core of your party? Is the point to strut around as a winner or make fundamental change?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

I was just asking about Starmer because I want Labour to win.

Regardless, I fundamentally disagree with your opinions on both Brexit and the Labour Party because they are why the Left don't win many elections in the scheme of things.

Of course the other view is what is the point of winning an election if you have to give up the believes at the core of your party? Is the point to strut around as a winner or make fundamental change?

When Labour reduced its message, in the Nineties, to "it's enough that we're slightly not THEM, you peasant bastards!", it resulted in a government with SOME minor achievements-but everything positive in the Blair years was outweighed by misery Blair and his crowd caused, and are effectively STILL causing-even though they destroyed their party's popularity by 2010 and have fought to keep it out of power ever since-in the Arab/Muslim world.  Labour embraced a bloody, imperialist vision of the world on foreign policy, and the electorate were never demanding that.

NDPP

NorthReport wrote:

I think Corbyn needs to step down if Labour for to have a chance at victory, because the objective is to win the election, as opposed to insisting that it is your way or the doorway. Politics is the art of compromise and one never gets everything one wants in any election. Some people would rather lose the election than compromise. Not me. 

NDPP wrote:

Labour needs Starmer like a hole in the head. Of course some here have been conditioned by years of NDP allegiance to accept neoliberalist capitulation and servility to power, aka 'the art of compromise' lol. Not to mention whatever NATO, Washington or Israel wants as well. No Brit Labourite should seriously entertain any advice or counsel from their ilk unless they seek to fail even better.

JKR

Is Keith Starmer related to Keir Starmer?

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Corbyn is a real Labour leader and not a watered down "democratic socialist/neo-liberal" like freaking "I love foreign intervention wars" Blair. I put Margaret Thatcher first on the list of vilest UK leaders of my lifetime followed by Tony Blair.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

laine lowe wrote:

Corbyn is a real Labour leader and not a watered down "democratic socialist/neo-liberal" like freaking "I love foreign intervention wars" Blair. I put Margaret Thatcher first on the list of vilest UK leaders of my lifetime followed by Tony Blair.

And Blair's first guest at 10 Downing Street was Matron herself.  He might as well have put up a big neon sign outside that said "NOTHING WILL CHANGE!".   Labour never needed to abandon almost all that it stood for to win in 1997.

NorthReport
JKR

laine lowe wrote:

Corbyn is a real Labour leader and not a watered down "democratic socialist/neo-liberal" ....

I think there’s a big difference between a democratic socialist and a neo-liberal. Isn’t Corbyn a democratic socialist? 

NorthReport
josh

The Guardian is the late Roy Jenkins in newspaper form.

nicky
NorthReport
NorthReport
NorthReport

Europe's Greens ready to be kingmakers in EU elections

Green candidates, on course for their best showing, could play a big role in a divided parliament

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/19/europe-greens-european-elections-kingmakers

NorthReport

Guy Verhofstadt: ‘If you want to see what nationalists have done, come to Britain'

The European parliament’s Brexit co-ordinator on the Behind Closed Doors film, the perils of populism and how Rwanda’s genocide changed him

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/19/guy-verhofstadt-brexit-interview-nationalists-london-european-elections

josh

The European election?  What a joke.  Who cares.  It’s like an election for prison trustee.  The bankers still rule.  True leftists should boycott it.

NorthReport

Why single out the EU?

Where do bankers not rule anywhere?

Unfortunately your support ensures right-wingers will continue to dominate in the UK and elsewhere

You are allied with Farage - strange that! 

NDPP

To Defeat the Far Right the Left Must Embrace a Socialist and Internationalist Brexit

https://t.co/fVnCW76w67

"The EU enshrines Thatcherism in one continent - the belief it can be reformed from within is deluded..."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It isn't possible to stop Brexit.  The EU has made it clear they won't let the UK stay in now.  Soft Brexit is the best thing to work for.  Trying to stay in the EU when that isn't possible is a pointless and objectively right-wing fight, and the only reason the "stop Brexit" thing was invented was that it was another way for the Labour right to attack Corbyn.  There simply was never a left, or even "center-left" case for not letting this go once the referendum results were in.  Britain's status with the EU is trivial compared to the need to save the place from the ugliness of Thatcherism.  

NorthReport

Ken your comments are very inaccurate

But please share with us why you ally with Farage?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Europe's Greens ready to be kingmakers in EU elections

Green candidates, on course for their best showing, could play a big role in a divided parliament

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/19/europe-greens-european-elections-kingmakers

In the European Parliament, there's no kingmaking to be done.  It's a parliament without a government and it's impossible to ever change any of the right-wing elements of the EU.  The budget restrictions and effective ban on nationalization are carved in stone in the EU for the rest of eternity.

And everybody knows it wouldn't be possible for Labour to put the unwinnable fight for a referendum with "Remain" as as an option at the center of its program and still disagree with the Tories on anything important.  It's enough that Corbyn has kept a referendum as a possibility if Labour is elected and that he did all he could to fight for Remain in the referendum, at a time where a Leave victory was always more or less a certainty.

There's nothing else he could have done during that referendum and everybody knows that Corbyn had to acknowledge, in campaigning, that people have legitimate grievances with the EU.  If he'd done what nicky wanted and pretended that the EU was Utopia as it is, he'd have had to give up his own policies afterwards and reduce his program to Blairism.  It isn't possible to be a committed socialist and be a passionate supporter of the EU as currently and eternally constructed.

Corbyn is being vilified on that because he wouldn't lie in the referendum campaign.  There is no speech of passionately expressed lies on the EU that would have turned a single Leave-leaning voter to Remain.  

Soft Brexit is a MORE anti-xenophobic position than the hopeless and essentially right-wing fight to push the Tories for a second referendum when we know they can never be made to call one.  It's dishonest to pretend that Brexit can be stopped at this point.

NorthReport

Ken

You keep avoiding the question:

Why do you ally with Forage?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Ken

You keep avoiding the question:

Why do you ally with Forage?

Because you're slandering me in asking that.  I have never allied with Farage.  I want him gone from public life.  In the referendum campaign I'd have voted Remain.  I oppose the pointless and unwinnable fight for a second referendum because it's impossible to force the Tories to call one and because that issue is trivial compared to the need to free the UK from every vestige of Thatcherism, which is something that will only happen if Labour wins with a non-Blairite leader, with an actual socialist.       

Were it not for the idiots trying to stop Brexit when it can't be stopped, Farage would be out of politics and the UK would be free of his toxicity.                                                                                                                                                                         The reality is, the post-referendum stop-Brexit fight was invented by the Labour Right to attack Corbyn and that's the only reason it's still being carried on. 

Fighting for a second referendum when we all know it can't happen is not a progressive position, it's not a pro-worker or a pro-economic and social justice position.  It's a pro-austerity position and it's just about deposing Corbyn and making sure he's replaced by a quasi-Tory like Keir Starmer or Jess Phillips.

NorthReport

The initial 2016 Brexit referendum is legally non-binding and advisory only, and as many people did not realize the full consequences, it is now time to bring the public in for a second opinion with a second referendum. The reason a second referendum is now required is that voters have now had a sober second thought about Brexit and Brexit has been found wanting 

josh

Nope.  Voters were told that their decision would be implemented by parliament.

NorthReport

Labour Leadership can see the writing on the wall and more and more now realize that a 2nd Brexit Referendum in very much required, as the majority don't want Brexit.

Brexit: Corbyn's position 'in peril' if he 'betrays' Labour over second referendum, shadow minister says

Exclusive: 'You can only drive a wedge so far between yourself and the people who put you in that position', Clive Lewis tells his leader

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-second-referendum-latest-clive-lewis-a8919096.html

josh

The ones who are opening the door to Farage and Robinson are those who continue to refuse to abide by the vote of nearly three years ago.  They are driving people who believe, rightly, that their vote is not being respected, to support more extreme candidates.  

NorthReport

Finally and good on Corbyn.

 

U.K.'s Corbyn to Offer Public Vote on Any Deal: Brexit Update

 

Labour leader Corbyn went further than before in his support for a second referendum, saying the public should get a confirmatory vote on his party’s own Brexit deal, not just May’s. He told BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be reasonable to put any Brexit deal to a vote.

 Brexit Update

Jeremy Corbyn speaks on The Andrew Marr Show.

Photographer: Jeff Overs/BBC

“If we can get that through Parliament -- the proposals we’ve put -- then I think it would be reasonable to have a public vote to decide on that in the future,” Corbyn said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-19/may-plans-bold-offer-to-win-over-u-k-lawmakers-brexit-update

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why was it not enough that he was keeping that as an option?  Why did he deserve to be mercilessly on this?

It still goes without saying that the Tories will never allow a second referendum while they're in power and that that's the end of it until they are gone.   It also still goes without saying that nothing can FORCE them to have that second referendum.

None of the obsession on this issue was ever justified.

josh

So, if a vote is held and Labour's plan is voted down, then what?  The issue in that vote should be an up or down on the plan, not yes or no on Brexit.

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