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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

If Corbyn steps down, the only message it can send is that the Labour Party will destroy any decent human being who seeks to lead it.  

What possible good comes of giving the anti-Corbynites victory in their slander, hatred, and lie campaign against the man?

nicky

What good does it do Ken?

For one, it allows the Labour Party to defeat a ridiculously bad Prime Minister who will very likely  win if his opponent is Corbyn.

NorthReport

Ken you seem to go off on these wild tangents that are unrelated to the discussion. No one has said that Corbyn did not legitimately win the Labour party leadership. What is apparent however, is that Corbyn is not popular with the voting public, which is a forerunner of election results, as political campaigns evolve around the leadership of the party. If you really want Labour to win just perhaps a leadership change could help. It seems presently however that the Lib Dems are on the ascent, and may well be the party of choice for those opposed to Johnson in the next election.

NDPP

swallow wrote:

you were always going to find some pretext to call him a sell-out, and then throw your support to whatever the UK equivalent of the CPC-ML might be

Quote of the day.

NDPP wrote:

Earlier equivalent to the CPC-ML? Hardial Bains?

Tony Benn - Britain Must Leave The EU to Restore Democracy

https://youtu.be/dQY2CHx4d3U

"Leaving the EU is a democratic and not a socialist argument."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And Soft Brexit DOES get the UK out of the EU.  It just does so in a less-disruptive manner.

nicky

Corbyn has dragged Labour down to THIRD place.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/09/19/the-first-full-poll-after-swinsons-brexit-gamble-sees-the-lds-up-4-ahead-of-lab-into-second-place/

“The  LDs are benefitting from having total clarity on the overwhelming  big issue of the moment and are also helped by having a new, young (Swinson’s 39) and female leader. This is in sharp contrast to Labour who are stuck with a leader whose been around a longish time, has personal ratings that are amongst the worst ever recorded for an opposition leader and whose ambiguity on Brexit looks set to be hard to defend in an early general election campaign.”

 

NDPP

Ken Burch wrote:

And Soft Brexit DOES get the UK out of the EU.  It just does so in a less-disruptive manner.

NDPP wrote:

Pull the other one. It's got bells on. 'Soft' Brexit is a propaganda sop meant to soften the blow of Labour's creeeping capitulation to a Remain position.

Tony Blair: Labour Has Control of Brexit Crisis...

https://twitter.com/EddieDempsey/status/1173109896365117441

"The former PM praises Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn saying the way he has worked to stop a No Deal Brexit [Clean Brexit with WTO rules not BRINO  (Brexit-in-name-only: 'soft' brexit) in recent weeks has been sensible and skillful..."

'Terrible Sign'.

josh

nicky wrote:

Corbyn has dragged Labour down to THIRD place.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/09/19/the-first-full-poll-after-swinsons-brexit-gamble-sees-the-lds-up-4-ahead-of-lab-into-second-place/

“The  LDs are benefitting from having total clarity on the overwhelming  big issue of the moment and are also helped by having a new, young (Swinson’s 39) and female leader. This is in sharp contrast to Labour who are stuck with a leader whose been around a longish time, has personal ratings that are amongst the worst ever recorded for an opposition leader and whose ambiguity on Brexit looks set to be hard to defend in an early general election campaign.”

 

YouGov again.  Or, as I prefer to call it, YouSuck.

nicky

Ipsos isnt much better for Corbyn Josh

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Give the Brexit issue a rest.  It's trivial compared to the need to save the NHS and undo all the Tory benefit cuts.  Only the rich win if the outcome is Remain but the Tories staying in power.

It's time to move on this since we all know Brexit can't BE stopped in this parliament.  The votes to revoke Article 50 will never be there and no alternative to Corbyn as leader can get them there.  

nicky

Brexit is by any measure the most important issue in the minds of British voters.

Ken and Corbyn both presumtuously want to "give it a rest" because Coryn is being literally crucified on this issue over his incoherent position on it.

I doubt whether the voters will oblige.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Brexit is by any measure the most important issue in the minds of British voters.

Ken and Corbyn both presumtuously want to "give it a rest" because Coryn is being literally crucified on this issue over his incoherent position on it.

I doubt whether the voters will oblige.

His position isn't incoherent.

It stops no-deal Brexit.

It negotiates the best arrangement with Brussels.

It gives the voters the final say.

That's the best that can be done.

It's not coherent to take the pro-austerity, economic royalist, anti-worker "nothing matters but Remain" position when taking that position would throw every seat in the North and Northeast of England to the Brexit Party for decades.

It's impossible for Labour to go all-out Remain and still run on anything close to a socialist program-and we all know that the votes to simply Revoke Article 50 can't be found in the current parliament while the Tories stay in power.   The failure to find those votes yet proves it.  There isn't anything Corbyn or any possible Labour leader could ever say to find those votes within the PLP.  

What matters is getting the Tories out.

And it's ONLY worth getting the Tories out if whoever replaces them makes a total break with the status quo.

Why can you not see that?

It isn't possible for Corbyn or the Labour Party to go all-out Remain.

It simply isn't.

And there's no point in trying to make that happen.

The EU's economic and spending restrictions have always been a tragedy for the working and kept-from-working poor.  Nothing can change that, becaues no EU policies can ever be changed.

If the EU has been run solely by neoliberals up to now, it can only be run by neoliberals.

There has to be some way of achieving the goal of European unity with imposing perpetual austerity on all countries within the unity.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

Brexit is by any measure the most important issue in the minds of British voters.

Ken and Corbyn both presumtuously want to "give it a rest" because Coryn is being literally crucified on this issue over his incoherent position on it.

I doubt whether the voters will oblige.

His position isn't incoherent.

It stops no-deal Brexit.

It negotiates the best arrangement with Brussels.

It gives the voters the final say.

That's the best that can be done.

It's not coherent to take the pro-austerity, economic royalist, anti-worker "nothing matters but Remain" position when taking that position would throw every seat in the North and Northeast of England to the Brexit Party for decades.

It's impossible for Labour to go all-out Remain and still run on anything close to a socialist program-and we all know that the votes to simply Revoke Article 50 can't be found in the current parliament while the Tories stay in power.   The failure to find those votes yet proves it.  There isn't anything Corbyn or any possible Labour leader could ever say to find those votes within the PLP.  

What matters is getting the Tories out.

And it's ONLY worth getting the Tories out if whoever replaces them makes a total break with the status quo.

Why can you not see that?

It isn't possible for Corbyn or the Labour Party to go all-out Remain.

It simply isn't.

And there's no point in trying to make that happen.

The EU's economic and spending restrictions have always been a tragedy for the working and kept-from-working poor.  Nothing can change that, becaues no EU policies can ever be changed.

If the EU has been run solely by neoliberals up to now, it can only be run by neoliberals.

There has to be some way of achieving the goal of European unity with imposing perpetual austerity on all countries within the unity.

nicky

Corbyn’s approval rating drops to 16% positive 76% negative, worst ever recorder for any leader.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/09/20/corbyns-ipsos-mori-satisfaction-ratings-drop-to-the-lowest-for-an-opposition-leader-since-it-started-in-1977/

are you still among the 16% Ken?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It goes without saying that taking the right-wing position and trying the impossible on Article 50 wouldn't make a difference.

And all young voters would abandon politics-and thus guarantee perpetual Labour defeat-if Corbyn were replaced with a "moderate".  This is because all "moderates" in the Labour Party have treated the young with contempt for decades-look at how horrible they were to the massive numbers of young people who protested the Iraq war early in this century and who are united against austerity and capitalism now.  There are no votes to be won from Labour choosing a leader who treats the young like Delores Umbridge treats the students at Hogwarts(to steal a metaphor from an author who has shared your irrational hatred of Corbyn for years and would hate it if she knew I had stolen it).

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Corbyn's position-negotiate, then give the people the final say-is the only coherent, democratic, and achievable position.   It's impossible to revoke Article 50 while the Tories are still in power, as has been repeatedly proved.  and no-deal Brexit is a situationt that can only have a Thatcherite outcome.  Corbyn's position on Brexit is the sensible, conciliatory approach that can bring the country together?

Why obsess on stopping Brexit when it can't BE stopped, and when it's far from clear that a second referendum before an election would produce a Remain victory at all?

None of the arguments your friends in the far right of Labour or the Tories were ever effective in the last referendum, and there's no reason to think that the same arguments-especially since the Blairites and the Tories are still refusing to accept that the EU economic policies, mixed with Blairism-Thatcherism, are the reason the North and Northeast of England are an economic dead zone.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And as to the alleged EU crackdown on tax cheats-the one the EU hasn't started to this day, for some reason-the Remain campaign didn't even mention that in its campaign.  Since the campaign was led by economic royalists, we can assume they wouldn't mention it AGAIN, if it was ever real.

Remain simply doesn't outweigh everything else in the universe.

nicky

Brexit is like a hook in the hapless Corbyn’s throat. He, like Ken, can pretend it isnt there or that it doesnt matter or that n0 one cares about it.

but this ostrich mindset is deservedly crushing Corbyn who himself is undeservedly crushing the Labour Party. It us a tragedy that this incompetent fool will not step aside and let Labour have a chance to win.

NDPP

Leave - Fight - Transform

https://labourhub.org.uk/2019/08/leave-fight-transform/

"Leave - Fight - Transform, or LeFT, is a grass-roots campaign aiming to give voice to those on the left that desire a clean break with the European Union, to fight neoliberalism, and transform society. Funded by trade unionists, socialists and community activists, it seeks to present a genuine alternative to the hard-right narrative of a Tory Brexit, as well as to the impossible demands of the 'Remain and Revolt' camp. The vote to leave in 2016 was a vote for a fundamental change in society, as working-class people across the country uprooted the status quo of the old neoliberal economic model embodied by the European Union.

The privatisation of our public services, and the brutal austerity implemented in the aftermath of the recession, may have been carried out by a Conservative government (enabled by the ever-willing Lib-Dems) here in the United Kingdom, but it was in no way mitigated by the EU. Indeed, in regard to privatisation the EU has only sought to encourage it...The left's failure to seize this crucial moment in history has seen us falter, with the argument to leave being dominated by a xenophobic and inward looking right, and the argument to remain dominated by liberals and centrists that are content with the pre-referendum status quo. Neither option is acceptable to any socialist, and it is now more than ever we need a radical and transformative alternative.

The reasons to support a clean break with the European Union from a left-wing perspective are innumerable. From the long history of left Euroscepticism across the labour movement...to the racist policies of the EU through its 'Fortress Europe and imperialist customs union. The European Union is not a democratic structure; with its treaty-based obligations to impose regulation on state aid and competition in the market. It is not a reformable structure, with unanimous agreement needed from every EU member state to amend treaty law in order to remove the explicit pro-market and pro-capitalist ideals. It is not a progressive structure; with its willingness to ignore abuses of human rights in Hungary, Poland and yes the UK until very recently with its failure to do anything about the archaic abortion laws in the north of Ireland.

Many in the Labour movement will know these terrible faults of the European Union, though the media often chooses to ignore them in favour of stoking anti-migrant hostilities or backing the status quo. Despite that, the dominant narrative at least on the national stage has been leaving the EU is regressive, anti-migrant and dangerous. That is why LeFT is campaigning for an anti-racist, progressive and socialist alternative.

The political reality means that come the next general election it is likely we will have already crashed out of the European Union with a Tory Brexit or 'no deal' situation. The Left and by extension Labour cannot simply campaign to immediately rejoin the European Union, in what would be an affront to democratic principles. Instead we must enter an election pledging to utilise that greater latitude given to a government outside the constraints of the EU's neoliberal order, to end austerity once and for all, to fundamentally change the economy.

If by the time of the general election we remain in the EU despite Conservative [And Labour!] promises to have left, there is an extraordinary opportunity to enter an election campaign pledging to exit the European Union on left-wing terms, assuaging the fears of many who are not unsympathetic to our case but fear any exit under a Conservative government. A radical and transformative manifesto pledging investment in all nations and regions of the UK, alongside diversification of the economy and an end to a legal regime that privileges the rights of capital over people, would not only give hope to millions of working-class people, but ensure that the old logic of neoliberal capitalism was at last ended.

An election is coming, and the left needs to decide what it will do when that time arrives; whether in or out of the EU. Leave - Fight - Transform is not a negative campaign seeking to promote old memories of imperialism or narrow English nationalism. It is instead a positive and transformative campaign seeking to build something new. Capitalism is in crisis once again, class politics is back, and a new generation are determined to build socialism in our lifetime. Join our campaign to leave the EU, fight neoliberalism and transform society."

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Brexit is by any measure the most important issue in the minds of British voters.

Ken and Corbyn both presumtuously want to "give it a rest" because Coryn is being literally crucified on this issue over his incoherent position on it.

I doubt whether the voters will oblige.

Oh for fuck sake nicky. The planet is on fire. Biodiversity is declining. Large numbers of species are threatened with extinction. We are very close to a tipping point which will send this all into a very nasty downward spiral with no hope of ever digging ourselves out of it. Climate strikes started today, and will continue going for the next week. This Brexit bullshit is just a silly distraction that the elites are using to distract us from their failures, and judging by your fixation on Brexit, it is working very well.

Please, Brexit is a distraction. Can we not move past this and focus on the real issues?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
Brexit is by any measure the most important issue in the minds of British voters.

Ken and Corbyn both presumtuously want to "give it a rest" because Coryn is being literally crucified on this issue over his incoherent position on it.

I doubt whether the voters will oblige.

Oh for fuck sake nicky. The planet is on fire. Biodiversity is declining. Large numbers of species are threatened with extinction. We are very close to a tipping point which will send this all into a very nasty downward spiral with no hope of ever digging ourselves out of it. Climate strikes started today, and will continue going for the next week. This Brexit bullshit is just a silly distraction that the elites are using to distract us from their failures, and judging by your fixation on Brexit, it is working very well.

Please, Brexit is a distraction. Can we not move past this and focus on the real issues?

That's what nicky is terrified of. 

nicky

I am flattered to read that Ken and Aristotle think that I have the power to shift attention of British voters from Brexit to more worthy issues.

I fear however that the average Briton pays as little attention to me as she does to them.

the fact remains that Brexit is the single biggest issue in the UK at the moment and will be so for the foreseeable future. Polls overwhelmingly show this. Brexit is dominating the Labour conference now underway. It is hardly my decision to make this go away.

And no Ken, I do not fear shifting the focus. It is the Corbynistas who fear that the focus will not be shifted because Corbyn’ unpopular Brexit contortions are showing him to be an unelectable incompetent fool.

This article deals with an attempt to forget Brexit in favour of the environment:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/17/climate-justice-lexiteer-labour-conference-europe-environment

 

NDPP

To the people of the UK, sovereignty, self-determination and the necessity to escape domination and control by an unelected, unaccountable neoliberal bureaucracy in Brussels is self-evidently a pre-cursor to anything else.

Too Many of Our Remainer Politicians Are Living In A Horror-Filled Fantasy Land of Fear and Economic Ignorance

https://t.co/YdG0Q0yovs

"...It's all designed to frighten people back into their box. But its real effect is to drive out rational thought. Departure from the EU stops an economic drain rather than ruins us. This escaping from rationality to a fantasyland of fear and ignorance might solace the souls of those who love the EU more than their own country. Yet it doesn't frighten the people and certainly isn't any reason to reject their demand that we leave a structure which drains us, punishes us, binds us and wants to make us part of a federal mausoleum."

Or an enforced austerity prison...Paris Acte 45.

https://twitter.com/ClementLanot/status/1175350951122821120

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
the fact remains that Brexit is the single biggest issue in the UK at the moment and will be so for the foreseeable future. Polls overwhelmingly show this. Brexit is dominating the Labour conference now underway. It is hardly my decision to make this go away.

That's only because the media has exclusively focussed on this issue and is ignoring everything else.

You've been around this community long enough to know that the media often distracts people from serious issues so that the ruling class can continue to stay in power. But I guess if you're well off and never experienced any real problems in your life you can afford to ignore people's real problems and focus on trivialities like Brexit.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The Labour rank and file are not obsessed with making the party go all-out Remain.  The pro-Remain polling figure you keep quoting simply means that's the personal preference.   A lot of people who are personally pro-Remain accept that the issue was settled in the referendum and that the only question now is the form of Brexit.

And I notice that nicky has never addressed the damage that the EU and Blairism-Thatcherism have done to the North and Northeast of England, just as the Remain leadership has never accepted that the EU restrictions on spending, taxation and the ability to nationalize have to be changed or defied if a Labour government is to be able to BE a Labour government.

Nothing to the left of Blair is possible under those rules. 

JKR

Does anyone not think that Corbyn’s low approval ratings are a problem for Labour and that Labour would likely have a better chance of doing well in the next election if it was led by someone with higher approval ratings?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Does anyone not think that Corbyn’s low approval ratings are a problem for Labour and that Labour would likely have a better chance of doing well in the next election if it was led by someone with higher approval ratings?

It matters why those approval ratings are low.  If Corbyn is forced out, the message is sent, for the rest of eternity, that in British politics a decent person will always be slandered into oblivion.

It goes without saying that anyone the PLP would prefer to Corbyn would have to be a reactionary and would almost certainly be an unquestioning apologist for Blair's wars.

No one like that, if elected-and they wouldn't be-would be in any significant ways different than the Tories in office.

The only reason for the Labour Party to exist is to represent a clear and absolute break with the Tory status quo.  The anti-Corbyn wing of the PLP don't care about that-they want power for the sake of having power, and if it means slaughtering hundreds of thousands of brown and black people they're fine with that.

The only decent replacement for Corbyn, at this point, would be John McDonnell.   And the PLP won't allow him, or anyone else the majority of the party who want Labour to be socialist, anti-austerity, and antiwar, on the leadership ballot.  

The party needs to adopt Open Selection for all sitting MPs, to finally make the MPs accountable to those they should be more accountable for than anyone else-their constituency parties and those who do the work of electing Labour candidates.

It's absurd to have a situation in which Labour MPs are allowed to treat their constituency parties as if they owe them noting-as if they don't even owe them respect for keeping the MPs in their seats.

There are virtually no Labour constituencies where the seat is ONLY Labour because a right-wing candidate was imposed from above against the will of the constituency parties.  And there is no reason for sitting MPs to act as though they are above their own party and should be treated like gods who walk the earth.  

JKR

At this point i think it would very likely benefit Labour if they had a new leader as long as Corbyn was able to insure that a person to his liking was included on the leadership ballot.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

JKR wrote:
At this point i think it would very likely benefit Labour if they had a new leader as long as Corbyn was able to insure that a person to his liking was included on the leadership ballot.

If such a person were elected leader, the same forces (both inside and outside the Labour Party) which have smeared Corbyn would immediately begin to smear the new leader. It's nothing about Corbyn personally that they hate, although they say it is. It is actually the policies that they hate, and they will try to destroy any leader who supports these policies.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Michael Moriarity wrote:

JKR wrote:
At this point i think it would very likely benefit Labour if they had a new leader as long as Corbyn was able to insure that a person to his liking was included on the leadership ballot.

If such a person were elected leader, the same forces (both inside and outside the Labour Party) which have smeared Corbyn would immediately begin to smear the new leader. It's nothing about Corbyn personally that they hate, although they say it is. It is actually the policies that they hate, and they will try to destroy any leader who supports these policies.

If the Chief Rabbi of Britain were somehow to be elected to the Labour leadership on Corbyn's policies, they'd start a campaign to label the Chief Rabbi as an antisemite.

JKR

I presume a new leader would at least have better approval ratings by the general public in time for the next election even if the new leader was being attacked internally within Labour.

I hate to say this but if Labour's schism is so intractable and and filled with malice I wonder if Labour is even fit to govern. I think the civil war within Labour might make Brexit a very bad proposition for the UK.

nicky
josh
NDPP

omit

josh

Survation:

Conservatives 27

Labour 24

Lib Dems 22

Brexit 16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

NorthReport

So the Lib Dems with their very focused razor-sharp Remain position in a very short period of time are not far away from the top 2 parties. Not too shabby! Unfortunately when the opposition splits against the Cons, the Cons win of course.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

So the Lib Dems with their very focused razor-sharp Remain position in a very short period of time are not far away from the top 2 parties. Not too shabby! Unfortunately when the opposition splits against the Cons, the Cons win of course.

The LibDems have stalled.  Labour would gain nothing from going all-out Remain, and it isn't possible for Labour to be all-out Remain and still be socialist in any sense.

NorthReport

The Lib Dems have stalled - What planet are you on?

josh

Especially since about 75% of its marginal seats voted leave.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

The Lib Dems have stalled - What planet are you on?

The planet where the LibDems have been stuck at about 20% in the polls for two months now.

And the same planet where the Brexit Party has taken as many votes from Labour-in Leave areas-as the LibDems have in Remain areas.

 

nicky

That would be the Planet Zantax, right Ken?

The Lib Dems are up to 24% in the last poll. Given Corbyn's pyrotechnics at the Labour Conference that will likely grow.

josh
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

nicky wrote:

That would be the Planet Zantax, right Ken?

The Lib Dems are up to 24% in the last poll. Given Corbyn's pyrotechnics at the Labour Conference that will likely grow.

He had no "pyrotechnics" at the conference.  All Corbyn did was justifiably-and fairly politely-call out the press for their ultraggresive, confrontational presence, for their insistence on shoving actual conference-goers out of the way to get to Corybn, and their insistence on pressuring him to commit the party to the right-wing "all-out Remain" position, when the press is never supposed to try and push a party into any particular position.

Corbyn had a great conference and his sensible unity position on the EU issue was accepted.

Keir Starmer gave a great speech which bolstered Corbyn, btw, in its call for unity.

There's no one the PLP would accept as leader that would be different than the Tories on anything-Labour "moderates" no longer disagree with the Conservative Party on any significant issues.

And no one the PLP accepted as leader could ever win the support of the young, because the young overwhelmingly want the party to be socialist and anti-austerity.

 

JKR

josh wrote:

Survation:

Conservatives 27

Labour 24

Lib Dems 22

Brexit 16

Without knowing a riding by riding breakdown, these kind of numbers could produce drastically different kinds of results. If a party got lucky they could even win a phoney FPTP “majority” with under 1/3rd of the vote even from third place if their vote was very efficient.

nicky

No Ken, Labour did not have “a great conference.” Corbyn’s Brexit incoherence will continue to drive away Remain voters in droves.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=27&LAB=24&LIB=22&Brexit=16&Green=&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18&SCOTLAB=18&SCOTLIB=20&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=40&display=AllChanged&regorseat=%28none%29&boundary=2017base

And JKR, the polling numbers indicate an enormously unpredictable distribution of seats.

plugging the Survation numbers into Electoral Calculus (with an adjustment for recent Scottish polling) I get

Con   275

Lab    241

LD       62

SNP     50

Brexit     0

This all assumes predictable shifts from 2017 results. This is highly uncertain given the massive shifts in electoral geography.

 

 

nicky

How can a PM who is this unpopular, leading a government that is this unpopular possibly hope to get re-elected?

the answer is below:

Latest @IpsosMORI government & leader satisfaction ratings:

 

Government

Satisfied 14%

Dissatisfied 81%

Net -67

 

Johson

Satisfied 37%

Dissatisfied 55%

Net -18

 

Corbyn

Satisfied 16%

Dissatisfied 76%

Net -60

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

If that result actually occurs, it will mean the LD's and SNP will have to back a Corbyn-led coalition government, because no one the PLP would impose to replace Corbyn could ever be popular or credible with the public-the sense that such a person only became leader because the PLP, the only sector of the party which is still hostile to socialism, thwarted the will of the Labour base, a base which will never accept another "moderate"(aka quasi-Tory)figure as leader.

And the message will be sent that, as was the case in both 1931 and 1983, when unity was desperately needed, it will be Labour's antidemocratic right wing 

Why can you not accept that it's impossible to get a second referendum BEFORE the next election and that the pointless obsession with trying to get the second referendum approved in a parliament which can never approve it can only have right-wing consequences, can only leave the working and kept-from-working poor out in the cold?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why keep pushing the "Remain before anything else" line when there's nothing in the right-wing EU status quo, a status quo which the last thirty years have proven can never be changed in any meaningful way, that could possibly be more important than ending the Tory era?  And why can you not accept that anyone who the PLP accepted as leader would automatically lose the votes of the millions of previously non-voting young that Corbyn brought into the party?  The only votes Labour can gain from 2017 are voters who massively disagree with everything the Tories did and what a completely new society.  The PLP doesn't get that-it still believes that "Middle England" is real, and it still harbours the delusion that wars can have progressive results and that there can be a humane capitalism which lets "moderate" Labour MPs have no-show corporate directorship jobs and life peerages in exchange for their valiant efforts to stop change.

Corbyn is simply a man, a fallible human being, but he's never deserved your relentless hostility and his supporters have never deserved to be treated as though they have no place in the party at all.  And if those who stand with you, on and off The Guardian's payroll, had accepted that the leadership question was settled on Election Night 2017 and ended their war against the man and his supporters, a Labour victory at the next election, whenever it was held, would be assured.

There's nothing that could come of uniting behind Corbyn or someone else with Corbynite principles, all of which are popular, that could possibly have produced anything worse for Labour OR the UK than the situation exists now.

And you still don't get it that Corbyn's position on the EU represents the only chance to get a referendum.  If the votes for that or for simply revoking Article 50 haven't been there in the current parliament, they never WILL be there in the current parliament.

And no greater good would come of forcing Labour to officially back the unwinnable fight for a second referendum in this parliament since Labour can't beat the Tories with that position and since all that position would do is guarantee that the Labour heartlands will be swept by the Farage cult.

Why do you care more about ousting Corbyn than you do about the poor and the young and the majority who are being immiserated by Tory policies?

 

 

nicky

Ken asks me “why do you not accept that another referendum is impossible before the next election?”

I doubt this will will impact on his absolutist myopic denialism ( also diagnosed as Corbynism) but...

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/14/ladbrokes-make-it-6-4-that-therell-be-another-brexit-referendum-before-the-end-of-next-year/

and.....

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-latest-government-boris-johnson-second-referendum-vote-house-of-commons-814772

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why can't you accept that it would be just as good to have the referendum AFTER the election?  There's nothing progressive possible while the Tories stay in power, and there's no one to Corbyn's right-which is what you want, a leader who would abandon everything Corbyn and the majority of the party want and go back to the extinct, pointless trap of Blairism-who would be able to get a referendum passed in this parliament either.

 

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