United Kingdom: Support continues to shift in favour of Second Referendum

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NorthReport

What’s with this issue about being cast in stone? 

Voters are much more aware of the Brexit consequences now and it has been found wanting

Are you suggesting that Quebec should not have been allowed 2 referendums?

voice of the damned

NorthReport wrote:

What’s with this issue about being cast in stone? 

Voters are much more aware of the Brexit consequences now and it has been found wanting

Are you suggesting that Quebec should not have been allowed 2 referendums?

By two referendums, you mean 1980 and 1995?

Let's do the math, and the history here. That's a gap of 15 years, during which time the contitutional reforms that had been promised to Quebec in 1980 failed to materialize. So, referendum proponents had a strong case to make that the situation had changed compared to what could have been foreseen in 1980.

Nothing like that has happened between 2016 and now, except that some people realize they should have asked more questions about some of the promises brexiteers were making during the campaign.

All that said, it's true that it's not a binding referendum, but as has been stated numerous times before, allowing an automatic do-over would be a standing invitation to every ruling conservative party in Europe to hold these kinds of votes to appeal to their respective populist mobs, and then weasel out of the consequences by asking for the same deal that the UK got.

 

 

 

NorthReport

JBrexit was proposed in a referendum by Cameron who never ever expected it to be approved so why would the citizens have paid that much attention to the original vote?

Actually quite a lot has changed. Now there is a much better informed electorate and apparently there has also been a groundswell of opposition to Brexit

Referendums in general are not the best way to approach issues in the first place

Also why oppose success? Europe has been without a World War now for an extended period of time something that many Canadians, but not all of course, fail to appreciate due to our very fortunate geographical circumstances

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Brexit was proposed in a referendum by Cameron who never ever expected it to be approved so why would the citizens have paid that much attention to the original vote?

 Actually quite a lot has changed. Now there is a much better informed electorate and apparently there has also been a groundswell of opposition to Brexit

Referendums in general are not the best way to approach issues in the first place

So much misinformation packed into one post.  More people voted in the 2016 referendum than in the 2015 election.  The common market/EU has been a front burner issue in the UK since the early 70s.  The electorate wasn’t “ignorant” of the issues involved.  They knew the pros and cons then just as much as they know them now.  Doesn’t matter whether you think referendums are the way to go.  That’s the course that was chosen.

voice of the damned

NorthReport wrote:

Brexit was proposed in a referendum by Cameron who never ever expected it to be approved so why would the citizens have paid that much attention to the original vote?

 Actually quite a lot has changed. Now there is a much better informed electorate and apparently there has also been a groundswell of opposition to Brexit

Referendums in general are not the best way to approach issues in the first place

Okay. First paragraph. You're asking me why the electorate should have paid attention to a VOTE that was being held? I'm not sure how to answer that question, except to say that if you care about an issue, and a vote is held, logic would seem to dictate that you should pay attention. "Well, I thought my side would win anyway so I didn't think I needed to care" doesn't really cut it as an after-the-fact rationalization.

As for the better-informed electorate being a chnaged factor, it's the electorate's own fault that they weren't better informed. They had no one to blame but themselves. I think the only thing justifying an automatic re-vote would be an external factor(ie. external to the stupidity of the electorate) that comes along AFTER the vote, to change the basic reality that the country is facing.

Let's say that the voters had supported Remain, but a year later, the EU passes a surprise rule saying that all participating nations have to join the eurozone. THAT would be a change justifying a new referendum, because it's quite likely that most people who voted to stay did so on the assumption that the status quo in regards to the pound would remain the same.   

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Are you suggesting that Quebec should not have been allowed 2 referendums?

Another referendum was their right, just as it would be the right of the UK to hold another if they choose.  But I certainly didn't cheerlead for another referendum in Quebec, and I'm not going to cheerlead for another in the UK.  Notwithstanding your own apparent belief that you're a UK citizen, we really aren't, so we're just spectating either way, and what actually happens is up to them.

Quote:
All that said, it's true that it's not a binding referendum

Yes, I keep seeing this repeated over and over.  If the UK had a history of ignoring the results of referendums then I suppose ignoring this one would have been palatable to the electorate.  But since there's a longstanding convention of treating referendums as binding, making this one an exception would surely lead to a lot of voter cynicism (and also probably a long moratorium on referendums, since the results of any future referendums will certainly be contested/nullified/re-done).  To ignore these results because the government is legally permitted to would be about as popular as prorogueing Parliament, just because it's legally permissible.

 

NorthReport

So much business bullshit is flowing here it boggles the mind.

Just the thought of Brexit has already damaged the economy, so why make it worse?

No matter what the Brexit agreement is, it will shrink the economy. 

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Brexit has already damaged the economy so why would Labour be supporting it?

There's a massive difference between "supporting" something and "accepting that something can't be changed".  It isn't possible to get the Tory government, no matter who leads it, to agree to a second referendum, therefore it can only be pointless and pathetic to fight for that, especially since fighting hard for that means Labour loses ever Leave voter forever.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And Corbyn can't singlehandedly change party policy on the issue.  It's enough that Labour is for a second referendum as an option.  That's all they can do and stay Labour.

NorthReport

There is no jobs first approach to Brexit so employment opportunities are less.

 

NDPP

The European Union is an Anti-Democratic Disgrace

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/european-union-parliament-elections-antid...

"...The body itself is an insult to democracy that exists only to rubber-stamp neoliberal rule."

Just like much of the western right-left and Canadian NDP-style 'progressives' today. No wonder they loved Hillary Clinton but Costas Lapavitsas or Tony Benn leaves them cold. No wonder they love the EU.

NorthReport

Brexiteers are subverting language to obscure the truth, Trump-style

It started with fake news, but now any unpalatable fact is fair game for the ‘thought incinerator’

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/brexiteers-trump-language-fake-news

NorthReport

Wake up Labour!

 

Brexit is likely to hit Labour-voting areas hardest. The gap between the north and south of England has widened since the referendum.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Wake up Labour!

 

Brexit is likely to hit Labour-voting areas hardest. The gap between the north and south of England has widened since the referendum.

 

Because the Tory government has deliberately widened it and due to the uncertainty.  If Soft Brexit had been approved by now-and really, couldn't everybody have lived with that?-the Tories would likely be out of power and Corbyn would be prime minister, and be able to bring in an actual Labour program-unlike the nothingness Blair did-to truly address unempl0yment and poverty.

If the Remainers had committed to an all-out fight for reform, had agreed to stand with a British government that defied the EU constraints on nationalization and spending while fighting for reform, had been open to actually working for a social Europe-had they EVEN committed to actually getting the UK to adopt the Social Charter, as Blair refused to do even though he had nothing to lose in doing s0-it would be a different matter.

Why did it have to be "fight to stay in the status quo, give up on changing anything in the EU"?,  

Why not at least commit to addressing the way the EU joined Tory and New Labour governments in abandoning the North and Northeast of England and thereby causing the rise of Farage in the first place?

NorthReport
JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

If Soft Brexit had been approved by now-and really, couldn't everybody have lived with that? 

I agree that a soft-Brexit was the sensible consensus position that something like 75% of the UK population would have been comfortable with. It says a lot about the ineptitude of the UK’s political system that a soft-Brexit hasn’t been established and it still seems that it probably never will be. In a sane world, the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and the SNP would have reached an amicable arrangement on a soft-Brexit but partisan winner-take-all FPTP politics hasn’t allowed for such a sensible solution to be found.

NorthReport

That was in January and support for a second referendum has grown since then

Better yet, just Revoke Article 50. We are all human and we all make mistakes. No big deal. 

Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-poll/britons-would-now-vote-to-stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum-poll-idUSKCN1P006O

NorthReport

UK: deputy Labour leader asks members to help create new Brexit policy

Labour deputy leader Tom Watson has tweeted a link to a survey on his website, asking members how the party should agree a new Brexit policy.

GIVE LABOUR MEMBERS A SAY ON BREXIT

https://www.tom-watson.com/give_labour_members_a_say_on_brexit

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Better yet, just Revoke Article 50. We are all human and we all make mistakes. No big deal.

I'm smirking, picturing the government just issuing an announcement that they decided of their own accord to cancel Brexit, and telling Leavers "We are all human and we all make mistakes.  No big deal."

Do you suppose those who voted Leave will be gratified that the government is magnanimous enough to forgive them their mistake? 

I'm sure they'll be so delighted that the government isn't going to hold their "mistake" against them that they'll forget all about the results of the referendum, and then everyone will all link arms in unity and everything will be awesome again!

NorthReport

Good on Corbyn as is saying the correct thing here.

Brexit Party and Lib Dems punish main parties in EU election

The ruling Conservative party could end up in fifth behind the Green party

Corbyn issued a statement saying that Labour would hold "conversations" across the party and wider movement on Brexit.

"With the Conservatives disintegrating and unable to govern, and parliament deadlocked, this issue will have to go back to the people, whether through a general election or a public vote," he said.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-party-and-lib-dems-punish-main-parties-in-uk-eu-election-nigel-farage-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn/

NorthReport

UK: 'overwhelming' case now for a people's vote, says Green party

Sian Berry, co-leader of the Green Party of England and Wales, has said that “the people have spoken” and voters should be given the chance to choose between remaining in the EU and leaving under a deal agreed with the EU.

Giving the people the final say over the country’s direction is now clearly the only way forward, the way to draw a line under the Brexit chaos. The vote tally for clearly Remain parties is higher than for that of the Brexit Party and Ukip. The people have spoken.

We are in a state of political crisis in the UK. But to understand that we need to look at the causes of the anger and frustration in Leave majority areas, Westminster austerity, our archaic Victorian voting system, and the concentration of power in London.

We have to be tough on Brexit and the causes of Brexit. And we have to turn our focus to addressing the climate emergency, our social crisis that sees millions insecure and uncertain they’ll be able to feed and house themselves, the damage done to the NHS by privatisation and underfunding and the many problems in our education system.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/may/26/european-elections-2019-results-eu-election-parliament-brexit-party-farage-tories-may-live

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
With the Conservatives disintegrating and unable to govern, and parliament deadlocked, this issue will have to go back to the people, whether through a general election or a public vote

The UK:  *just about anything*

Labour:  "Clearly the only possible way forward is a general election".

josh

It really takes gall to say “the people have spoken” when no party commanded anything close to a majority.  And the majority vote of nearly 3 years ago has not been implemented.  But the hallmark of the remain crowd has been their contempt for majority rule, and their contempt for democratic norms.

JKR

Remainers aren’t stopping Brexit as leavers have a majority in the UK House of Commons. It’s the infighting between soft Brexiters and Hard Brexiters that’s preventing Brexit even though a majority in the UK are now so fed up they would now likely vote to stay.

NorthReport

Part of the big lie about Brexit as that the EU would prevent Labour from making left-wing policies. This is nonsense as there is nothing in Labour's manifesto that the EU would prevent.  

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

That was in January and support for a second referendum has grown since then

Better yet, just Revoke Article 50. We are all human and we all make mistakes. No big deal. 

Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-poll/britons-would-now-vote-to-stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum-poll-idUSKCN1P006O


It's too late to revoke it and the EU is going to make the UK leave no matter what.

And it's condescending to tell voters anywhere they've "made a mistake".  I would have supported Remain, but it's all over and there's no chance at all of stopping Brexit.  The plain and simple fact is, the Remain campaign failed to make anything like a coherent case for staying in the EU, and since the same people would be running the Remain campaign in a second referendum and would run it exactly the same way, there's no reaon to think Leave  wouldn't end up winning again.

NorthReport

You keep coming up with all these wild ideas such as it is inpossible to cancel Brexit or the EC wants the UK out of the EC as if there is some credibility behind them which is just not true

NorthReport

Another of the many things to consider is if Labour enables Brexit it is finished in Scotland

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Another of the many things to consider is if Labour enables Brexit it is finished in Scotland

 

Again, there's nothing Labour could ever have done to stop Brexit.  No Tory MPs would ever break with the government and back a second referendum.  

Corbyn didn't want Brexit...it's just that once the referendum results were in, the matter was out of his hands.  And he did everything he could in the referendum to achieve a Remain victory-there is nothing he could save said to anyone anywhere that could have stopped the Leave win.  

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

In any case, North, it's dishonorable for you to keep accusing Corbyn and the Labour Party itself-Corbyn is following party policy on the Brexit issue and it's impossible for any leader to simply declare that he will ignore party policy on anything-of enabling Brexit or of being allied with fascist scumbags like Farage.

Leave didn't pass because of Farage-it passed because the political establishment at the time didn't acknowledge the damage that the EU had done to the North and Northeast of England and because that establishment refused to make any pledges at all to address the harm that had been done.  Neither the LibDems nor the Greens nor the Labour Right has addressed those issues YET.

And I've seen nothing from you calling on them to do so.  You simply demand that Corbyn take a position that loses Labour the North and Northeast of England for the rest of eternity.  Why is that? Why by into the anti-Left, pro-austerity myth that the EU issue matters more than everything else in the universe?  That it matters more than restoring the Tory benefit cuts and ending the benefit sanctions...that it matters more than saving the NHS...that it matters more than restoring the power  of the unions...that it matters more than addressing climate justice...why obsess on this one issue to the exclusion of everything else?

NDPP

WATCH: "Mainstream Media rarely have Labour-Leave people on,  so here are my few thoughts on the EU elections 2019. Please share."

https://twitter.com/BrendanChilton/status/1132762133568151558

"To the idiots in the Parliamentary Labour Party who say we need a second referendum with the option to remain: Tonight our party is being destroyed up and down the country, thanks to your appalling decision making and thanks to your inability to accept the results of a democratic referendum..."

NorthReport

As usual Ken you are clutching at straws.

Good on Corbyn! 

Corbyn 'listening very carefully' to Labour calls for second referendum

Leader under pressure from own side to respond to poor performance in EU elections

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/corbyn-pressed-by-senior-labour-mps-to-back-a-second-referendum

NorthReport

A second referendum is a bad option for Labour. But it may be the only one left

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/27/second-referendum-labour-corbyn-leave-remain-tories

NorthReport

Paul Mason, as he so often does, has nailed it!

Corbynism is now in crisis: the only way forward is to oppose Brexit

But Labour needs more than an office reorganisation. To go forward, the leadership needs to recognise facts it has become reluctant to face. The Labour surge of 2017 was caused by a mixture of Corbyn’s honesty, and the dire campaign waged by Theresa May, but above all by large-scale tactical voting among remain voters.

Last night’s results show what can happen when these conditions don’t apply. To renew Labour’s electoral alliance with progressive young voters, the salaried working class of the big cities and progressive working-class voters in the ex-industrial towns, the party needs to unite around the strategy of remain and reform in Europe. It needs to tell voters honestly: it’s time to scrap Brexit and rebuild Britain instead.

Those of us who want that strategy must acknowledge the challenge it will pose in former industrial areas. The doorstep in places affected by hopelessness and dollar-fuelled fascist propaganda is brutal. Nobody in their right mind wants to tear their local society apart again over Brexit, if it can be avoided. But the rise of the Brexit party demands we fight now about values, not simply policies.

------

For Labour the situation is saveable. It needs contrition from the leadership – as in “we got it wrong, we are sorry and we are making changes”. Get it right and Johnson’s premiership ends in flames and a government of radical transformation is on the cards. Get it wrong again, and the danger is that the left project could collapse under its internal tensions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/27/corbynism-crisis-oppose-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-labour

NorthReport
josh

Labour would get wiped out in the north if Corbyn went back on his pledge to leave the EU.  The best thing for him and for the entire political system is if the new Conservative PM leaves the EU, deal or no deal.

NorthReport

The European elections have made a Final Say much more likely. Here's why

For one thing, a referendum would be less risky than an election that could turf the new prime minister out of office within a few months. The six months required to organise a public vote would spare them the embarrassment of being the UK’s shortest-serving premier

 

Labour, which had hoped to come second, finished third behind the re-energised Liberal Democrats with just 14 per cent of the vote. Labour also hoped its poor performance would be eclipsed by the Tories’ disaster. That might have worked if Theresa May had not announced her resignation on Friday, and instead quit today. But there is no hiding place for Labour now.

Jeremy Corbyn’s allies believe they could see off the Lib Dems at a general election by attacking them on austerity and university tuition fees, though they cannot assume all the Labour defectors would return. However, I suspect the party will learn the right lesson from these elections.

Corbyn will now be unable to stop his party’s annual conference in September coming out in favour of a Final Say in all circumstances. It was noticeable that Corbyn’s post-election statement did not mention a Labour Brexit deal and said instead, “this issue will have to go back to the people, whether through a general election or a public vote”. John McDonnell has also joined Emily Thornberry in calling for “a public vote”.

There are calls for Labour to ballot its 500,000 members on Brexit policy or hold a special conference. More likely is that Labour’s national executive committee adopts a clearer pro-referendum stance, and then the conference completes Labour’s tortoise-like journey. There will be resistance from diehards like the Unite leader Len McCluskey, who will wrongly attribute the criticism of Corbyn’s stance as an attempt to oust him. He always does. True, diehards can point to the Brexit Party taking votes from Labour in Leave areas, which could also happen at a general election. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/european-elections-brexit-second-referendum-boris-johnson-farage-a8931566.html

josh

No second vote, no more extensions.  Just leave in October.

NorthReport

European Elections: What they tell us about support for Brexit

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48402593

NorthReport
NDPP

MUST WATCH: Peter Shore, UK Labour, Oxford Union Debate (1975)

https://twitter.com/BrendanChilton/status/1132541462858653696

"I'd like to know from my own Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn how this explanation of Brexit - better than any ever given by anyone - how is this 'extreme hard right'?"

(Just keep reading the Guardian and all will become clear.)

'You Can Stop The Far Right Today' - Jeremy Corbyn

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1132920178931642370

"Just looked out of the window. Saw a little old lady goose-stepping to the shops. Seems we failed."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Hety Maggie, I think Brtitons will celebrate even more enthusiastically the death of the next PM. Nigel Farage is a huge POS. Enjoy, Britain.

josh

NDPP wrote:

MUST WATCH: Peter Shore, UK Labour, Oxford Union Debate (1975)

https://twitter.com/BrendanChilton/status/1132541462858653696

"I'd like to know from my own Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn how this explanation of Brexit - better than any every given by anyone - how is this 'extreme hard right'?"

Just keep reading the Guardian and all will become clear.

Shore was great in defending British democracy and its ability to adopt economic policies as it sees fit.

NorthReport

 

'This is a vindication of the politics of remain'

The Sinn Féin president, Mary Lou McDonald, hugged Martina Anderson, the Sinn Féin candidate who received the most first preference votes, upon arriving at the count in Northern Ireland

“I think it was very important that a pro-remain candidate topped the poll,” she said. 

“I think this result is a resounding rejection of Brexit again. It sends the clearest possible message ... I think this is a vindication of the politics of remain, I think it is vindication of the politics of common sense, it’s about us standing together collectively and protecting our rights and interests.”

 - the Guardian

NorthReport

Summary: five takeaways from the European elections

More people care about voting in European elections.

 - the Guardian

NorthReport

Scotland should hold a second independence referendum next year, the SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, says. the country’s First Minister made the comments on a visit to Dublin, where she said the “latter half” of 2020 would be the “right time” for a new poll.

 - the Guardian

NorthReport

Pro-remain vote across the UK is strong, says Alliance party leader

Naomi Long, the Alliance party leader, said the pro-remain vote across the UK was the strongest it had been for years. She expressed confidence Brexit could be stopped. “I think we can and if we don’t it won’t be for a want of trying,” she said.

The former Belfast mayor said she would remain Alliance leader despite having to give up her seat in the assembly, expressing hope the term in Europe would prove to be five years.

“There will be no one more delighted than me if this ends up being a five-year term,” she said, adding that Alliance was benefiting from public disaffection with traditional politics in Northern Ireland.

“I think people are tired of the fact that the stale politics of the past isn’t delivering and I think what we are offering for people are solutions to the problems we have, not just more problems,” she said. “I am totally blown away by the result.”

 - the Guardian

NorthReport

Who does Farage think he is kidding, eh!

Conservatives will not take the UK out of the EU by the end of October, Farage says

The Brexit Party leader, Nigel Farage, has said it is “extremely unlikely” that a future Tory leader will take the UK out of the EU by the end of October.

 - the Guardian

NDPP

"The idea that anyone would see these extraordinary results for the Brexit Party and jump to the conclusion that Labour should back a second referendum is madness. Labour must stand for working people or we stand for nothing."

https://twitter.com/blue_labour/status/1132780532717240320

NorthReport

Couldn't agree more that Labour should be representing working people, but Brexit was designed by the one percenters, supported by the middle class, and is only going to seriously damage the life of working people.

A typical Leave voter was a Conservative supporter who was not poor.

Since when would the Conservative party ever create a situation that would be favourable to working people - like never! 

 

 

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