All about Dubai
Mon, 2008-07-07 18:04
#1
All about Dubai
Mon, 2008-07-07 18:04
#2
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/rabble_interview.shtml?sh_itm=79223be504f19cea37020... interesting interview about Dubai.[/url]
quote:
In a region bombarded by the chaos of the U.S.-driven "war on terror," Dubai, a small city-state located on the edge of Iran and Iraq, has become a city of glitz and glamour, a striking paradox that has enchanted many around the world.Dubai's shining exterior is quickly becoming world famous, including a series of 300 constructed islands mapping out the shape of the world, an indoor ski mountain in the boiling temperatures of the Persian Gulf and the soon to be completed Burj Dubai, now the tallest man made structure in the world.
Behind Dubai's famous monuments are many contradictions, most strikingly the massive non-citizen work force that is estimated at close to 1 million people, labourers mainly from South Asia who work in conditions that multiple human rights organizations have condemned. In recent years the conditions facing these labourers have begun to gain attention internationally.
As a city-state, Dubai offers little possibility for democratic rights, as labour unions and political protest are outlawed and foreign workers are offered no possibility for citizenship. The entire political and economic system is tightly controlled by a ruling monarchy. Stefan Christoff of Tadamon! spoke with Mike Davis about the contemporary contradictions surrounding Dubai.
Wed, 2008-07-09 09:10
#3
quote:
A British woman could be jailed for up to six years in Dubai after she was allegedly caught having sex on a beach.The woman, said to be 30, was arrested after a police officer reportedly twice found her having sex with a British man on Jumeirah Beach.
She has reportedly been charged with having sex outside marriage, indecent behaviour in public, being drunk in public and assaulting a police officer.
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/09/middleeast?gusrc=rss&feed=netwo... sex on the beach in Dubai![/url]
Wed, 2008-07-09 09:33
#4
Frustrated Mess
what was the male charged with?
Wed, 2008-07-09 09:47
#5
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]what was the male charged with?[/b]
Under such a misogynist society, I would imagine nothing.
Wed, 2008-07-09 12:18
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]what was the male charged with?[/b]
"The holidaymaker accused in connection with her arrest faces a similar sentence."
They didn't exactly go out of their way to make it clear.
Wed, 2008-07-09 12:30
#7
Cueball
Ms Palmer is pretty clear that both are facing charges apparently, as she says:
quote:
Ms Palmer was quoted by the British tabloid newspaper The Sun as saying: “They’re going to make an example of us and we’re going to get a higher sentence. We are in so much trouble and my family and everybody are affected. Until someone is in this situation they could never know what it’s like. It’s bad – it’s so, so bad.”
In the same article the official version of the incident is described in detail:
quote:
The incident is said to have happened following a brunch last Friday at Le Meridien Hotel. Ms Palmer and the man – known only as “Vince” – met for the first time that day and had been drinking alcohol.Ms Palmer, who moved to Dubai three years ago, later went with the man to the beach, where they were spotted kissing by a police officer and cautioned. Later, the same officer caught the couple having intercourse.
Friends said Ms Palmer, who lives in Jumeirah, allegedly shouted abuse at the officer and was arrested, taken to a police cell and charged. She has since been released on bail.
But of course, we are rich white westerners, and so can go anywhere, and act in accordance with our own views and morals, regaredless of what the local customs and law says... [url=http://thenational.ae/article/20080709/NATIONAL/16678882/1041/FOREIGN]Ri...
Wed, 2008-07-09 15:39
#8
Oh, I still think what they did was tremendously rude and that they should have known in advance that it wasn't likely to end well - however, being sentenced for that long seems excessive.
Wed, 2008-07-09 15:59
#9
Cueball
Yeah, but getting busted for public fucking is hardly unexpected, even in Canada. I don't know what the sentence would be here, but the combined charges including assault police would certainly add up to a substantial sentence, not far off from these numbers.
In fact the sentencing maximum for the charge of assaulting an officer of the peace in Canada is almost [b]double[/b] (five to ten years) that which is being proposed here. Notice the minimum sentence of five years is close to what Dubai provides as the their maximum sentence, so your quote in a Canadian context would look like:
quote:
A British woman could be jailed for up to [b]ten years[/b] in Canada after she was allegedly caught having sex on a beach.
Minimum 3 months for assaulting a cop? Unheard of in this country, you are looking at 5 years, minimum sentence ...but oh those evil sexist Muslim moralists repressing basic human rights always gets good play among some cricles on this web site.
Why dat?
[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-07-09 16:15
#10
remind
Agree with you cueball, however here they most likely would not be charged with having sex on a beach, and definitely not charged with having sex outside of marriage.
Just 2 weeks ago we caught a couple having sex at the regional park beach just up the road, all we did is walk away and decide to have apicnic elsewhere.
Wed, 2008-07-09 16:20
#11
Cueball
You are not an cop. You are not obliged to intervene. The facts, which have yet to be disputed indicate that the officer in fact warned these people and then walked away, much like you did, but at the same time he paid lip service to his obligations and then bent the rules and let them go with a warning. The couple then continued with their activities.
I can imagine precisely the same from an officer in Canada, had people flagrantly disregarded a warning... but we are "drunk, white, western, horny and rich, so we can buy our way out of anything" and in fact.. guess what... [b]they probably will.[/b]
But the headline is still there lingering in the public imagination, "woman might get six years for fucking" not "Woman charged with assault police in Dubai gets advantage of lienient sentencing guidlines".
[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-07-09 17:48
#12
So, you trust the police in this situation? You think that because we live in the west we have zero right to condemn this way of treating people? If this was the deep south in the US, we'd be screaming bloody murder.
Sorry but I, for one, refuse to defend the actions of the state, or the police who carry out these repressive laws.
quote:
Behind Dubai's famous monuments are many contradictions, most strikingly the massive non-citizen work force that is estimated at close to 1 million people, labourers mainly from South Asia who work in conditions that multiple human rights organizations have condemned. In recent years the conditions facing these labourers have begun to gain attention internationally.As a city-state, Dubai offers little possibility for democratic rights, as labour unions and political protest are outlawed and foreign workers are offered no possibility for citizenship. The entire political and economic system is tightly controlled by a ruling monarchy.
Flame away.
Wed, 2008-07-09 18:04
#13
Cueball
Of course not. That is not the issue. What is at issue here is the comparative standards of the law, and the apparent attempt to distort the public view of what is going on, as if this is merely a case of coitus on the beech, and excessive punishiment for breeches of the moral code (misdemeanors) when in fact there is a charge of a what is a serious criminal offence, fraudulent or otherwise.
The police here have certainly never been above making false claims either. Yet what we are being asked to believe is that something particularly unusual and "Islamic" is going on, when in fact throwing the book at obnoxious people is pretty much standard operating procedure all over the world.
In fact, it can be shown that if anything, Dubai, at least in terms of the observable legal code is less harsh in its application of the law in the case of charges of Assault Police. The cumulative weight of these charges would be greater in Canada, than they are in Dubai... where is the story? Why is it "interesting"? What prejudices does it play to? What is the "western" public reaction to this story, framed as it is? Why is it even on this thread?
You really think that people in France get to read full page headlines about incidents where couples get rousted by cops on Wassaga beech and the scenes turns ugly and some drunk persons ends up getting charged with Assaulting an Officer of the Peace with a possible five year sentence? That goes out on the wire on AP complete with little homilies about the opressive moral codes of Protestant puritanism, and mainstream newspapers worldwide pick it up?
Come on. The only thing that distinguishes this story from multiple similar events that happen almost daily in this country is that the people applying (or misapplying) the law are Muslim, and that is about it. Locally, this kind of story barely registers a blip on the media radar, when it happens right next door.
[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-07-09 22:30
#14
Cueball
quote:
According to sources, Palmer, who works in Dubai for magazines firm ITP Publishing, launched an angry four-letter tirade after her second romp was halted.[b]She is alleged to have called the cop a f****** Muslim **** and tried to hit him with her high-heeled shoe before being restrained.[/b]
As sex outside marriage is considered an offence in Dubai, Palmer was charged with it and with indecent behaviour in public, being drunk in public, and assaulting a police officer.
[url=http://in.movies.yahoo.com/news-detail/28901/Brit-woman-in-dock-breaking... woman in the dock for breaking 'no unmarried sex' law in Dubai[/url]
Racist comments coming from drunk white European? NO WAY! This allegation is notably missing from the Guardian article while other media, such as the [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/dubai/2273330/Briti... have recharachterized this as "Miss Palmer is said to have become aggressive," while the report I linked to above from "the National" is equally euphemistic about the reported details, where Plamer "allegedly shouted abuse at the officer and was arrested," and the alledged physical assault is not mentioned at all.
I'd say we are getting a pretty stilted version of the events here, where the headlines misrepresent the charges and make it appear that she will potentially serve six years for a moral misdermeanor, and key details of her alledged racist remarks, and assault are glossed over in "friendly" language, [i]or ignored entirely[/i], in a manner that draws focus toward the misdemeanor, and away from the more serious allegations.
Is this a good place to add that the two women apparently caught making out on the same beach in the spring, each got a month for the misdemeanor and were sent home?
[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 01:33
#15
Cueball
Well, Michelle, I have to say that is one of the more interesting articles I have seen on Babble. A very intriguing look at the conundrums of the new European "Cantons" in the Middle East, power, politics and war.
Now back to the important business of Muckraking Muslim tyranical Mores. Very interested to hear how this story all pans out, after all the hype. It turns out apparently that Ms. Palmer and her consort are not actually charged with anything, at this point, and are hoping they will get nothing...
quote:
It is understood that the pair's legal advisers have already lobbied the prosecutor not to continue - a perfectly normal legal manoeuvre in the emirate.Mr Acors and Miss Palmer, who has since been sacked from ITP Publishing Group, spent much of yesterday in meetings with lawyers recommended to them from the British Embassy.
They have been told that they may have to wait up to three weeks until any court appearance. However, a source close to the pair revealed that they are 'quietly hopeful' that the charges will not reach court at all.
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1033635/Revealed-The-telecoms-bo... The telecoms boss dubbed 'Vince Charming' at centre of Dubai 'sex on beach' case[/url]
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/10/article-1033635-01E7723A000005...
"Che Guevara" of love, Vince Acor.
So, I guess eager Babblers will have to wait at least a few weeks before the sordid saga of our intrepid moral liberationists and their single handed battle to bring civilization to the sexist and repressive UAE begins to pan out. Speaking of our superior western moral fortitude and sense of justice, I am glad to see that her British employers ITP Publishing (incorporated in the British Virgin Islands) fired the wicked woman summarily, even though she has not been charged with nada!
For more information on our hero, just follow this link: [url=http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/11/bonking-brit-runs... Brit runs dodgy SMS company[/url]
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 04:54
#16
Frustrated Mess
Cueball, would it be too much to expect you to just accept your inherent Western superiority of culture, morals, and values without the sarcasm? It is getting so I don't remember who is to be bombed, who is to be showered with aplomb, and who is to be subject to a pogrom.
Now, in other news, while our George W. Bush is prancing around the world guilt and fear free, being the leader of the free world and having having rightly brought death and displacement to upwards of six per cent of the Iraqi population, the International Criminal Court is [i]finally[/i] going after the president of Sudan.
I mean, if they think they can kill and ethnically cleanse their own populations, well ... next they'll think its [i]their[/i] oil.
Oh, yes, I do recall. Bomb Iran, shower aplomb on Qatar and nuclear India (who said WMDs were always bad!), and a pogrom for land based indigenous peoples everywhere.
Sat, 2008-07-12 05:03
#17
You're right Cueball, let's not even discus the outdated laws, their hatred of women (state sanctioned). Right. When you're a woman Cueball, then you can have some say about how "Western" women have no right to moralize the way women, gays and other people are treated. Until you grow some breasts and experience such horrid discrimination, I suggest you stay silent. Oh, that's right. You are staying silent!
After all, looks like in your world any enemy of the US is to be free from criticism.
And I deeply resent that YOU think you are the decision maker on what we can, and cannot address in terms of other countries.
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 06:50
#18
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]After all, looks like in your world any enemy of the US is to be free from criticism.[/b]
Dubai, like the other United Arab Emirates, is not considered an enemy by the United States at present.
quote:
The UAE sent forces into Kuwait during the 1990–91 Gulf War.The UAE supports military operations from the United States and other Coalition nations that are engaged in the invasions of Iraq (2003) and Afghanistan (2002) as well as Operations supporting the Global War on Terrorism for the Horn of Africa at the al-Dhafra Air Base located outside of Abu Dhabi. The al-Dhafra Air Base also supported American and Allied Operations during the 1991 Persian Gulf War and Operation Northern Watch.
- Wikipedia
Sat, 2008-07-12 06:58
#19
RevolutionPlease
I just thought Cueball was doing a fine job of deconstructing what the media did here. The media in this instance wasn't hoping to help women.
Sat, 2008-07-12 06:58
#20
remind
This is a confusing thread, or at least the posts are, for me, at least. Perhaps something has been lost in the editing of proceeding posts, to make the following posts appear to be offon a tangent.
Anyhow, the last link, cueball put up, states that Ms Palmer has a blog in which she wrote that the reports of her conduct are incorrect, but it gives no links to her blog, which is weird, and even weirder is they do give a link to a facebook group for the male.
Sat, 2008-07-12 07:35
#21
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]This is a confusing thread, or at least the posts are, for me, at least. Perhaps something has been lost in the editing of proceeding posts, to make the following posts appear to be offon a tangent.[/b]
That seems to be likely here, as I was confused too. Thanks remind.
Sat, 2008-07-12 08:30
#22
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Yeah, but getting busted for public fucking is hardly unexpected, even in Canada. I don't know what the sentence would be here, but the combined charges including assault police would certainly add up to a substantial sentence, not far off from these numbers.In fact the sentencing maximum for the charge of assaulting an officer of the peace in Canada is almost [b]double[/b] (five to ten years) that which is being proposed here. Notice the minimum sentence of five years is close to what Dubai provides as the their maximum sentence, so your quote in a Canadian context would look like:
Minimum 3 months for assaulting a cop? Unheard of in this country, you are looking at 5 years, minimum sentence ...but oh those evil sexist Muslim moralists repressing basic human rights always gets good play among some cricles on this web site.
Why dat?
[ 09 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
Except for a little exaggeration here....in Canada there is description and the max sentences are almost never imposed in these tyoe of states (Dubai, Saudi etc) the laws are well shall we say barbaric. SO it's comparing apples to dinosaurs. Let's get intellectually honest here ok?
Sat, 2008-07-12 08:39
#23
The Che Guevara of love wtf.
Sat, 2008-07-12 13:48
#24
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]In fact the sentencing maximum for the charge of assaulting an officer of the peace in Canada is almost [b]double[/b] (five to ten years) that which is being proposed here. Notice the minimum sentence of five years is close to what Dubai provides as the their maximum sentence...Minimum 3 months for assaulting a cop? Unheard of in this country, you are looking at 5 years, minimum sentence ...[/b]
Section 270(2) of the Criminal Code of Canada provides for a [b]maximum[/b] sentence of 5 years for assaulting a peace officer - same as Dubai. There is no minimum sentence.
Nobody ever gets that on a first offence; usually there is a fine. In any case, nobody would get anywhere near five years when the "assault" consists of verbal abuse and an attempt to hit the officer with a shoe.
Sat, 2008-07-12 14:16
#25
Cueball
Yes, except for the fact that assault with a weapon, in this case a high heel shoe, moves the charge to the higher category, where the minimum sentence the Maximum is 10.
quote:
Assaulting a peace officer could also bring a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment. The charge of assaulting a peace officer includes an assault against someone who is helping a peace officer in official duties, or someone who is trying to make a lawful seizure of goods, such as a sheriff or bailiff. Resisting a lawful arrest or detention is considered to be assault of a peace officer as well.An assault carried out with a weapon, or one that results in bodily harm, has a maximum sentence of ten years imprisonment.
[url=http://www.plea.org/freepubs/as/aspg1.htm]Public Legal Education Association of Saskatchewan[/url]
But, I agree it is not likely that such a charge would stick, or amount to a huge sentence. But in fact I have witnessed cases where very simple assaults such as these, even when the weapon is relatively benign thing such as a shoe, get definied as assault with a weapon, in the charge sheet.
It's a common legal strategy, based on throwing the book at someone in order to ensure a conviction on something. Precisely what appears to be happening in Dubai in this case.
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 14:30
#26
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by nonest factum:
[b]
Except for a little exaggeration here....in Canada there is description and the max sentences are almost never imposed in these tyoe of states (Dubai, Saudi etc) the laws are well shall we say barbaric. SO it's comparing apples to dinosaurs. Let's get intellectually honest here ok?[/b]
Really, the maximum sentence for are always imposed in "these types of states." What if I were to apply the same maxim and include Canada and the US in a phrase like "these types of states" and willy-nilly associate Canada with the "three strikes your out" law in the US or capital punishment for youths?
Is that the kind of barbarity you are talking about?
Regardless, if it is true that the UAE always applies the maximum sentence, then how is it that two women caught for fornincating on the very same beech in the "exceptionally" sexist and homophobic state of Dubai, merely got a month sentence before being deported?
You have presented nothing to prove your assertion that the UAE is particularly "barbaric" in comparison to Canada, and your view merely seems to be prejudiced. Perhaps you would like to further expand on the barbarity of the UAE, and show how it is particularly exceptional, in comparison to countries like the USA, Canadan and the UK?
Or are we supposed to accept your allegation of barbarity on faith?
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 14:37
#27
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Really, the maximum sentence for are always imposed in "these types of states."
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
Oh so sorry. These types of states never ever ever have a history of human rights abuses....like say Samson, Arar, etc etc. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Get real please.
Sat, 2008-07-12 14:44
#28
Cueball
I am asking you to demonstrate how this case is an example of "exceptional" barbarity, in comparison to the practices of Canadian law enforcement.
As I pointed out, the last two people, apparently lesbians (a woman from Bulgaria, and a woman from Lebanon) caught and charged with almost the same crime, without the Assault Police charge, were given a month sentence and then deported from Dubai. According to your vision of things they should have been hung up on hooks, garroted and then fed to the sharks.
They got a month for being lewd in public, and that is about it.
Your idea seems to be that Syria, the state of Saudi Arabia and the UAE are the same. They are no more "the same" that the USA and Canada and the UK are "the same." The Samson case happened in the exceptionally repressive Saudi Arabia, and the Arar case happened in Syria at the behest of the US with the co-operation of the Canadian government.
Direct responsibility for the barbarity of the treatement of Arar, pertains not only to Syria but to the USA and Canada, and your inclusion of it as an example, only demonstrates the essential point about hypocrisy I am trying to make. He was deported there with the foreknowledge that he would indeed by tortured, and indeed he was.
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 14:59
#29
quote:
He was deported there with the foreknowledge that he would indeed by tortured, and indeed he was.
Exactly because he COULD NOT be tortured in Canada according to Canadian law.
What part of "not according to Canadian law" don't you get?
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:00
#30
Cueball
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Basicly you are a racist hypocrite. I want to personally thank you for clearly demonstrating the kind of racist ignorance and double standards that the particular focus on this story, and the way it is cast in the media feed into.
Now please get back on topic and demonstrate what precisely is remarkable about this case, other than the fact that the action is transpiring in a Muslim country?
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:07
#31
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]Basicly you are a racist hypocrite. Now please get back on topic and demonstrate what precisely is remarkable about this case, other than the fact that the action is transpiring in a Muslim country?
I also want to personally thank you for clearly demonstrating the kind of racist ignorance and double standards that the particular focus on this story, and the way it is cast in the media feed into.
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
So I want to thank you for demonstrating that politically correctness taken to absurdity demonstrates intellectual dishonesty and idiocy.You're an ignorant idiot.So what.
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:08
#32
Cueball
Demonstrate how the essential facts of this story are substantially different than something that could happen in this country. Something other than making general aspertions about the people of the middle east?
Can you at least do that?
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:12
#33
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
[b][url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/09/middleeast?gusrc=rss&feed=netwo... sex on the beach in Dubai![/url][/b]
Would not even happen here. THAT'S the POINT.
(Must be the heat eh?) [img]cool.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:17
#34
Cueball
Here is a picture of the beach
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/09/article-0-01374B9D00000578-589...
Here is a picture of another beach, in Vancouver in a similar urban locale
[img]http://z.about.com/d/govancouver/1/7/P/0/-/-/west-end-the-beach.jpg[/img]
![http://z.about.com/d/govancouver/1/7/P/0/-/-/west-end-the-beach.jpg[/img]](http://z.about.com/d/govancouver/1/7/P/0/-/-/west-end-the-beach.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
You are saying that I can go down to this beach anytime I want to fuck and not get rousted by the cops?
It's you who needs to get real.
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:24
#35
"A British woman could be jailed for up to [b]six years[/b] in Dubai after she was allegedly caught having sex on a beach."
As you "well-know" (I am giving you the benefit of the doubt)here you'd get a slap on the wrist. Six years is reserved for killers.
OK you can stop "pretending" to be stupid now.
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:27
#36
Cueball
A british woman may get 6 years for cumulative charges stemming from an incident where she deliberately ignored a caution to cease her activity, and the woman, admitedly drunk then is alledged to have assaulted the police officer, and then was charged with a serious criminal charge which can get you 6 years in prison. The same charge in Canada, might get you 10.
[b]In Dubai, the last case of "sex on the beech" got two women exactly a one month sentence, each.[/b]
I take it you have never been arrested in Canada, and that you don't know anyone who has been arrested on the Assault Police charge here. I am right?
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:34
#37
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]A british woman may get 6 years for cumulative charges stemming from an incident where she deliberately ignored a caution to cease her activity, and the woman, admitedly drunk then is alledged to have assaulted the police officer, and then was charged with a serious criminal charge which can get you 6 years in prison. The same charge in Canada, might get you 10.[b]In Dubai, the last case of "sex on the beech" got two women exactly a one month sentence.[/b]
I take it you have never been arrested in Canada, and that you don't know anyone who has been arrested on the Assault Police charge here. I am right?
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
Yes you're absolutely right. I am profoundly sorry and beg your humble forgiveness. You obviuosly have superior experience and wisdom.
I'm wrong you're right. Is that better now?
Sat, 2008-07-12 15:36
#38
Cueball
No. I would like you to continue demonstrating the prejudice that this kind of media muckraking is intented to foster and feed into. But, I guess, even you must be running out of ridiculous arguements, since you would really have to launch into some wacko stuff to say anything at this point.
Sat, 2008-07-12 16:13
#39
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]since you would really have to launch into some wacko stuff to say anything at this point.[/b]
I'll leave that to you. You seem to do a good job of it here. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2008-07-12 16:20
#40
Cueball
You have shown absolutely nothing to prove that in this particular case there is anything exceptional about this incident, other than the fact that it is taking place in a Muslim country.
Please identify what is exceptional about it?
Or are you still clinging to the idea that if I went down to Cherry Beach to fuck, and the cops discovered me doing that they would not intercede?
Or are you now saying that if they let me off with a warning, and then came back and discovered that I had ignored their warning, that they would just say... "ok well, I don't care if you flagrantly disrespect my authority, or my generosity of having let you off the first time," and then walk away?
ROFL!
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 16:32
#41
The same standard in Canada I'm sure:
quote:
Iran: Death Penalty for Blogging?On Wednesday, Iranian members of parliament voted to discuss a draft bill that seeks to “toughen punishment for disturbing mental security in society.” The text of the bill would add, “establishing websites and weblogs promoting corruption, prostitution and apostasy,” to the list of crimes punishable by death.
In recent years, some Iranian bloggers have been sent to jail and many have had their sites filtered. If the Iranian parliament approves this draft bill, bloggers fear they could be legally executed as criminals. No one has defined what it means to “disturb mental security in society”.
Such discussion concerning blogs has not been unique to Iran. It shows that many authorities do not only wish to filter blogs, but also to eliminate bloggers!
A state policy to control blogs
About a year and a half ago, the Iranian government demanded that bloggers should register and provide their names and addresses on a site called Samandehi. Many people believed such a process would facilitate legal action against them.
Bloggers resisted and many published an “I do not register my blog/site” banner on their blogs. The Government then realised it cannot have real control of the situation, or force bloggers to register.
In the footsteps of Yemen?
Unfortunately, the Iranian case is not unique to the Middle East and to the world. In April, MidEastYouth talked about new repressive measures adopted by Yemen, quoting Walid Al-Saqaf, YemenPortal.net's administrator:
“This week, the government’s Minister of Information threatened to file lawsuits against news websites on the justification of ‘inciting hatred’ or ‘harming national interests’ and the other usual excuse they often use to prosecute journalists. The threat is even more severe for websites because the government would use the penal code instead of the press law. This means that website owners could receive even death penalties.”
“Don’t be upset, we'll execute you legally”
Nikahang, a leading Iranian online cartoonist and blogger, says [Fa]:
if this draft bill becomes law, everything will be based on interpretation and a simple blogger will be considered a center to destroy people’s religion! What can I say? Only people who disturb people’s mental security could support such a thing.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/6la9z2]The rest here[/url]
Sat, 2008-07-12 16:42
#42
laine lowe
[url=http://www.washblade.com/2004/2-20/news/localnews/sentanced.cfm]Five years is a pretty stiff sentence for public sex between two men![/url]
As for Ms. Palmer's assault/abuse of the police officer, she should count herself lucky that they didn't use taser guns.
The media coverage certainly seemed framed in an "us" (liberated, civil, reasonable) and "them" (misogynist, uncivilized, barbaric) context. I have friends living in the UAE (both indigenous and ex-pats) and I have never heard them complain about their lives being threatened by archaic laws.
If anything, their human rights violations are mostly in the realm of mistreating migrant workers and being very much anti-union. Everyone making money in Dubai is living quite well, including ex-pats who choose to follow local customs and laws. I believe there are even ways around the alcohol prohibition.
There have never been any reports of torture or excessive use of force filed by human rights watch groups.
Sat, 2008-07-12 17:18
#43
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
[b][url=http://www.washblade.com/2004/2-20/news/localnews/sentanced.cfm]Five years is a pretty stiff sentence for public sex between two men![/url]If anything, their human rights violations are mostly in the realm of mistreating migrant workers and being very much anti-union. Everyone making money in Dubai is living quite well, including ex-pats who choose to follow local customs and laws. I believe there are even ways around the alcohol prohibition.[/b]
I am glad someone is willing to discuss some serious politics, rather than this hyped up fluff case. Yes, the real question here is; would the same lenient standards of law enforcement that are metted out to westerners be applied universally to anyone living in Dubai, or is it just that the UAE makes every effort to simulate "western standards" in the case of rich powerful white westerners, in order to avoid embarassing scenes involving European expats?
Noest factum: Please explain how the repression of civil liberties in Iran has anything to do with politics in the UAE, and moreso how this bears on proving how the specific case in question involving "sex on the beach" can be shown to be exceptional to the standard of law enforcement in Canada? BTW, "Youtube" is banned in Turkey because it has been used to say negative things about Kemal Attaturk, and his "secular" vision of the Turkish state.
In anycase, I am glad you are back on track with your prejudiced tirades, and wacko red herring hunt. Any comment on the 5 year sentence for [b]talking[/b] about sodomy in the USA?
quote:
“It’s pretty harsh to sentence someone to five years in jail for speech, [b]when actual public fornication receives only 12 months.” [/b]
Wow! And this is Virginia. A possible 12 month sentence for public fornication! The one and only case ever brought to trial in Dubai of a same-sex couple getting busted for [i]actual[/i] public fornication, only resulted in a 1 month sentence, before deportation.
[i]Ok, I admit that is a little bit off topic. My real question is; where is the outrage at Ms. Palmer being summarily fired from her job by her [b]British[/b] employer, even though she has not actually even been charged, yet? Anyone care to gloss that over?[/i]
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 17:55
#44
quote:
Noest factum: Please explain how the repression of civil liberties in Iran has anything to do with politics in the UAE, and moreso how this bears on proving how the specific case in question involving "sex on the beach" can be shown to be exceptional to the standard of law enforcement in Canada?
In anycase, I am glad you are back on track with your prejudiced tirades, and wacko red herring hunt.
Funny how blinded and intellectually dishonesty from political correctness is somehow not prejudiced ...but calling a spade a fucking shovel is...hmmm
This is your lovely free and strong Dumai:
quote:
No Male Rape Crime in the UAE?
by Greta Van SusterenAs you know, we were in UAE last week..so naturally this article caught my attention. The allegation is assault of a MALE teen (see the text in blue below)…read it and post your comment:
2 Men Accused of Kidnapping, Sexually Assaulting French Teen in United Arab Emirates
Thursday , November 01, 2007
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates —
Two Emirati men are accused of sexually assaulting a 15-year-old French teen, a case that has raised questions about the protection of foreigners and the fairness of a legal system where male rape does not exist as a crime.
The defendants — aged 35 and 18 — briefly appeared in court Wednesday where one was appointed a new lawyer. The other defendant’s attorney did not appear in court for the hearing, which lasted a few minutes.The two are accused of kidnapping two French teens and sexually assaulting one of them in July. A third defendant, also accused of taking part in the assault and also Emirati, is being tried in a juvenile court where the proceedings are closed to the public.
Last week, the two adult defendants pleaded not guilty to charges of kidnapping with deceit and illicit sexual intercourse.
According to court documents, the 35-year-old defendant has been identified as HIV positive.
The charges against the two adult defendants carry the death penalty if convicted. It was not immediately clear what sentence the third defendant would face if convicted in juvenile court.
The Emirates’ legal system prohibits the media from naming the defendants until a verdict is reached in the case.
The case has garnered much attention and controversy here in this booming Gulf tourist hub, which boasts of its prosperous economy, relatively moderate lifestyles, and fair commercial and criminal legal systems.
Some expatriates here have long complained that foreigners have few legal rights. Emirati citizens are far outnumbered by foreign workers and expatriates, mostly from Asia but also from Europe.
Dubai officials deny they have mishandled the case and say they treat fairly both Emiratis and foreigners living in Dubai.
Dubai remains largely hostile to homosexuality. The UAE legal system does not recognize rape of men as a crime, only rape of women, although prosecutors can bring other charges in the case of a sexual assault against a man, as they have in the French teenager’s case.
The teenager and his family have told French newspapers and Web sites that Dubai authorities tried to discourage them from pressing charges in the case, and also failed to tell them that one defendant had tested HIV positive.
The French newspaper Liberation quoted the victim’s family as saying police also tried to force the teen to say he was a homosexual, immediately after the attack. He now lives in Switzerland.
The family could not be reached by The Associated Press this week and calls to the teen’s lawyer in Dubai were not returned.
According to court documents, the juvenile defendant offered the two French teens, one of whom he knew slightly, a ride home from a Dubai mall. The two French teens got in the car but were later joined by the other two adult defendants, the documents said.
The group drove to the edge of the Dubai desert, where the three defendants are accused of taking turns sexually assaulting one of the teens in the car while the other one was told to stay behind a sand dune, according to the court documents.
The judge on Wednesday set another hearing for Nov. 7.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/5rynag]Civil liberties in Dubai[/url]
Sat, 2008-07-12 17:59
#45
Cueball
What is your problem they bust people for kidnapping and sexual assault against teens in Dubai? Outrageous!
Or perhaps you are suggesting that gay people get railroaded by the unfair application of the law in Dubai, unlike Viginia where even [b]talking[/b] about public same-sex fornication with an adult can net you five years, in a country where teens themselves are routinely executed for capital crimes.
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 18:03
#46
laine lowe
Isn't Greta Van Susteren that legal talking head from FOX and close friend of former US Attorney General Ashcroft? Hard to take her outrage or framing seriously.
Sat, 2008-07-12 18:06
#47
It's a mad hatter's tea party!
Dubai is a free and open state and USA is a fascist, imperialist, racist, (of course Zionist) repressive , and totalitarian state. Excuse me!Sorry for not getting you're "logic."
You're killing me! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
I think I'd rather chew tin foil than "debate" you.
Sat, 2008-07-12 18:10
#48
Cueball
No. It is the USA that executes teenagers, not I you.
quote:
Twenty-one* U.S. states allow for the execution of people who were 16 or 17 at the time of the crime. Out of the 38 death penalty states, 16 have abolished this punishment for juvenile offenders.In the past five years, the United States has executed 13 juvenile offenders. Eight of these executions took place in the state of Texas. [b]The [i]rest of the world combined[/i] carried out five such executions.[/b] The United States accounts for four of the last five known juvenile offender executions in the last two years.
[url=http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/juveniles.html]Amnesty International[/url]
So aside from prejudice do you have anything to add to this thread, in the way of facts?
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 19:01
#49
And they execute mentally handicapped people, too.
Sat, 2008-07-12 19:10
#50
forget about it.....
[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: nonest factum ]
Sat, 2008-07-12 19:44
#51
Cueball
Again, the issue is not wether or not the USA is fascist, and Dubai is not. That is your farcical ideological fixation, not mine.
I have made no such assertion, the assertion I have made is that in this particular case there is nothing extraordinary in comparison to how the case might evolve or be handled in comparison to Canada. Given that you can not actually show that there is any substantial difference, and in fact similar charges of assault police resulting from occassions where drunk people willfully disregard police warnings to cease and disist, happen on a regular basis in this country, with the result that the persons in question may face substantive jail terms for the resultant felony.
In fact, the only thing thing that is exceptional is the fact that it is happening in a Muslim country, and if this had happened in Canada, or the US or Britain, the case would not have made the local news, or if it did it would be a 100 word "human interest" piece, found on page 43.