quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b][url=http://www.urlfan.com/site/theotherrussia_org/1633437.html]"TheOtherRussia.org" ranks [b]51282 out 1,515,000 sites[/b][/url] (Mentioned in 21 feeds)Rabble.ca is several times more popular a news source. No wonder cornerman frequents rabble/babble[/b]
The Other Russia is a web site founded by Garry Kasparov. Maybe you have heard of him.
Sorry, but it looks like Mike Hammerhead wrote but one article for IHT. I'm not familiar with Hammertime Gossip-News or Mike Hammerheadenschlagen whatsoever. You must try harder.
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[qb][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Petras]James Petras[/url] is a retired Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, SUNY, New York, U.S., and adjunct professor at Saint Mary's University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada who has published prolifically on Latin American and Middle Eastern political issues.Life and Work
Petras received his B.A. from Boston University and Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley.[1] His initial appointment at Binghamton was in 1972 at the Sociology Department and . . .(insert list of accolades and literary achievements)Petras is currently a member of the editorial collective of Canadian Dimension and contributes to Counterpunch
[/QUOTE]
Well the ADL has a different opinion of young James
Jewish-Controlled Media and Government
Additionally, anti-Semitic and anti-Israel conspiracy theorists believe that the "Jewish-controlled media and government" have prevented the "real story" about Jewish/Israeli involvement in 9/11 from being broadcast. David Duke and others have often repeated this theme.
James Petras, a radical professor who contributes to the left-wing online journal Rebelion, also writes about Israeli involvement in the 9/11 attacks and "Zionist" influence on the government:
"The stories implicating Israel [in the 9/11 attacks] were completely dismissed by all the media and political leaders across the spectrum. Now U.S. federal investigators reveals [sic] that the Israeli's [sic] may have known about the attack before it occurred and not shared it. This raises the question of the relationships between the Arab terrorists and the Israeli secret police. Did the Israelis penetrate the group or pick up information about them? Federal investigators' confidential information could probably clarify these vital questions. But will the confidential information ever become public? Most likely not. For the very reason that it would expose Israeli influence in the U.S. via its secret agents and more importantly via its powerful overseas lobby and allies in government and finance. The lack of any public statement concerning Israel's possible knowledge of 9/11 is indicative of the vast, ubiquitous and aggressive nature of its powerful diaspora supporters."
[url=http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_Domestic/9_11_conspiracy_theories.... [/url]
[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: cornerstone ]
quote:
Georgia has admitted dropping cluster bombs during its attempt to regain control of its breakaway province of South Ossetia, a human rights group said today.
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/01/georgia.russia]http://www.gu...
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/01/georgia.russia]http://www.gu...
So has Russia
[url=http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm]Human Rights Watch[/url]
The US and Russia have both not signed onto international treaties banning land mines and cluster bombs.
Just because one side is wrong does not mean the other side is right. Both sides can be equally wrong.
I'm sorry about ADL, but they only have two apologetic pieces about Prescott Bush who operated a Nazi front bank on Wall Street for years leading up to Adolf's "operation murder European/Asian Jewry and enslave everyone else"
Here's a decent little report on Crazy Jorge de la Yayo's grandfather, herr Bushler: [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar]How Crazy George II's grandpappy helped Hitler's rise to [b]sieg HEIL! sieg HEIL!! seig HEIL!!![/b][/url]
[url=http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm]The Hitler Project[/url]
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Sorry, but it looks like Mike Hammerhead wrote but one article for IHT. I'm not familiar with Hammertime Gossip-News or Mike Hammerheadenschlagen whatsoever. You must try harder.[/b]
soooooo are you saying that one of the most respected newspapers in the world just opens their pages to anyone without fact checking??? Try Googling his name and you'll see he is a 20 year veteran journalist you covered the former USSR.
Swing and a miss again Fidel. You might just want to give up and let somebody else have a turn.
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]I'm sorry about ADL, but they only have two apologetic pieces about Prescott Bush who operated a Nazi front bank on Wall Street for years leading up to Adolf's "operation murder European/Asian Jewry and enslave everyone else"Here's a decent little report on Crazy Jorge de la Yayo's grandfather, herr Bushler: [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar]How Crazy George II's grandpappy helped Hitler's rise to [b]sieg HEIL! sieg HEIL!! seig HEIL!!![/b][/url]
[url=http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm]The Hitler Project[/url][/b]
And Fidel has developed Tourette syndrome. Thanks for playing.
[url=http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash/bushnonazi1.swf]Bush Nazis[/url] News "Flash" for cornerstone's eyes only. Turn speaker volume up for that crazy oompah band sound
quote:
Originally posted by cornerstone:
[b]So has Russia
[url=http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm]Human Rights Watch[/url]
The US and Russia have both not signed onto international treaties banning land mines and cluster bombs.
Just because one side is wrong does not mean the other side is right. Both sides can be equally wrong.[/b]
Did I suggest otherwise?
quote:
Originally posted by cornerstone:
[b]soooooo are you saying that one of the most respected newspapers in the world just opens their pages to anyone without fact checking???[/b]
There are a number of IHT pieces written by Noam Chomsky, Joseph Stiglitz, and several more people on the left. Did you read those, too?
quote:
[b] Try Googling his name and you'll see he is a 20 year veteran journalist you covered the former USSR.[/b]
No thanks, I prefer more independent voices on the past and current events and on Russia today, like Canadians Michel Chossudovsky, Mike Weir, Stephen Gowans - and a long list of American academics and independent voices on the centre-left and left proper. You can plug for Mike Hammerheadenschlagen and Hammerhead news, but you'll find babblers are very particular about news sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]
Did I suggest otherwise?[/b]
no you did not. fair comment [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b][url=http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash/bushnonazi1.swf]Bush Nazis[/url] News "Flash" for cornerstone's eyes only. Turn speaker volume up for that crazy oompah band sound[/b]
And my grandfather came from the same region of Emilia-Romagna as did Mussolini and that makes me what????
The fact that Prescott Bush was an asshole (old news and nothing new has come forward to conclusively prove his guilt, or is it that darn Jewish media keeping it under wraps) has nothing to do with the ADL or the fact that your boy James spouts off about Jewish conspiracies.
Nice try to deflect the issue, swing and a miss again.
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]No thanks, I prefer more independent voices on the past and current events and on Russia today, like Canadians Michel Chossudovsky, Mike Weir, Stephen Gowans - and a long list of American academics and independent voices on the centre-left and left proper. You can plug for Mike Hammerheadenschlagen and Hammerhead news, but you'll find babblers are very particular about news sources.[/b]
so you agree that the IHT is a balanced and reputable source of information until you hear something that challenges your world view.
Good critical thinking there Fidel.
It's a sign of weakness to attack the messenger, in your case feebly, than try to critique the content. I am sure there are many independent corespondents and reporters on Rabble who are unknown outside of their trade but are highly respected within it.
I trust the judgement of the editors at the International Herald Tribune more than I trust you.
quote:
Originally posted by cornerstone:
[b]And my grandfather came from the same region of Emilia-Romagna as did Mussolini and that makes me what????[/b]
I think my father rolled through that region with Montgomery's 8th Army after Ortona.
quote:
[b]The fact that Prescott Bush was an asshole (old news and nothing new has come forward to conclusively prove his guilt, o[/b]
I've got no time for apologists of the Nazis or Nazi symptahizing Bush crime family members or fascist bastards all. ciao chica
quote:
Originally posted by cornerstone:
[b]James Petras, a radical professor who contributes to the left-wing online journal Rebelion, also writes about Israeli involvement in the 9/11 attacks and "Zionist" influence on the government:
"The stories implicating Israel [in the 9/11 attacks] were completely dismissed by all the media and political leaders across the spectrum. [/b]
The truth is that Israeli intelligence warned the neocon cabal of imminent al Qa'eda attacks in the U.S. The Bush-Cheney cosmetic gov ignored the warnings. The Israelis then appealed to the Russians to provide an even more credibility to the warnings, which were also ignored. And then warnings flooded the CIA-White House from world-wide intel agencies, which went ignored as well.
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR200608... Commish Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon[/url]
[url=http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20070906103632686]Zogby Poll: 51% of Americans Want Congress to Probe Bush/Cheney Regarding 9/11 Attacks[/url] Over 30% Seek Immediate Impeachment
Millions of Americans are afraid of their government, cornerstone. There is no real democracy in the USSA. What they have is plutocracy. It's a charade
[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]
The Georgians have admitted to Human Rights Watch that they used cluster bombs on civilians in South Ossetia. US warships have been driven from the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol thanks to public protests amid shouts of "Yanqui Go Home!" And the EU has just met and delivered a large smelly turd that accomplishes ... well, nothing really.
The recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia has put an end to Saakashvili's visions of ethnic cleansing in those territories. Other states will join in that recognition soon enough. In any case, all it takes is the recognition by a single state to move things forward. And that's been done.
And, the icing on the cake, the Georgian militarist regime, rather than completely break off relations with Russia, has decided to ease visa restrictions that had initially been imposed following the richly-deserved thumping that Russia gave Georgia after the attack by the latter on South Ossetia. Apparently, there are a lot of Russian-Georgian marriages and what have you, and it won't do to cut off your nose to spite your face. Ha ha.
The neocon and Russophobic dogs will bark, but the caravan of humanity will move on. What an utter, utter rout.
And if the Russians are sensible, then they won't run up the score too much and, they will instead make ice-breaking gestures to move things forward. Medvedev's 5 points look to do just that.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
I'm not eager to speak with cornerstone after his slandering of James Petras whom I have a great deal of respect for but he did bring up the Other Russia and Putin's stifling of opposition and these are valid concerns. Its not so much our business but as an admitted slavophile (hey what else would I be, still keeping up with this thread!) I have followed internal Russian politics to the best of my ability for some time. I have also been a supporter of the Other Russia coalition despite not being a big fan of Kasparov (its a coalition, you don't have to LOVE everyone in it). I am very much against Putin's efforts to crush dissent in Russia (especially as the only surviving dissenters are legit and not significantly foreign backed); particularly the group Nashi which was modeled on opposition protesters (imagine showing up for the next WTO protest and finding the protesters outnumbered by screaming WTO fans in the same garb and with the same slogans and posters, all warped to promote the government!).
All that said I was very disappointed in the Other Russia's stance on this recent conflict in Georgia. As anyone whose read these threads through since the start would know I believe Russia did what it had to do in the face of US backed Georgian aggression. I've been unhappy to see the other Russia essentially mouthing the US media on this issue; they are risking selling out their people and giving Putin's charge that they are US-backed a lot more weight. Furthermore there are some coalition members who would NEVER back the US-Georgian line on this conflict and I am worried it will split whats left of the Russian opposition.
I sent the Other Russia a letter last week about this and I will share the response with you all if I do indeed receive one.
quote:
It's Me D: All that said I was very disappointed in the Other Russia's stance on this recent conflict in Georgia. As anyone whose read these threads through since the start would know I believe Russia did what it had to do in the face of US backed Georgian aggression. I've been unhappy to see the other Russia essentially mouthing the US media on this issue; they are risking selling out their people and giving Putin's charge that they are US-backed a lot more weight.
The Other Russia might have such a stance but they are downplaying it very much. They would suffer very serious political losses if they really pushed this line in Russia. I'm afraid their opposition on this issue is for western consumption only.
Good luck with your letter. Try another one with a Russian address and see if you get the same reply.
[b]MORE developments. [/b]
[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,575581,00.html]The Article in Der Spiegel[/url]
quote:
Meanwhile, various ministries in Berlin have started to doubt the credibility of the most problematic friend of the West. Saakashvili, contrary to his own version of events, apparently ordered the attack on South Ossetia before the Russian tanks entered the province from the north via the Roki Tunnel.'Carelessly Playing with Fire'
This was reported by military observers working with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) who were in Georgia at the time. Information from tapped phone conversations involving Georgian political leaders may have also made its way into the reports, which have been leaked from OSCE headquarters in Vienna. One source who is personally familiar with the reports summarized the findings as follows: [b]“Saakashvili lied 100 percent to all of us, the Europeans and the Americans.”[/b]
Just last week, the Georgian president told Germany’s mass-circulation Bild newspaper: “We respected the cease-fire. It wasn’t until the Russian tanks rolled into South Ossetia that we deployed our artillery.” The OSCE reports also indicate that Saakashvili attacked the civilian population while they were asleep in their beds. That could be tantamount to a war crime. “Our dialogue with Georgia has to become more critical again,” says a top Western diplomat.
What about the role of the US as a catalyst for the assault on South Ossetia?
quote:
Rumors are currently circulating in the US that Cheney may have sparked the crisis in Georgia as a favor to the Republican presidential candidate. There is a wealth of evidence to support such a theory. McCain’s foreign policy advisor Randy Scheunemann was a lobbyist for the Georgian government until last May. McCain is a close friend of Saakashvili. If the OSCE allegations concerning Georgia’s war plans are substantiated, it could fuel debate on the issue. In the meantime, an election campaign conducted in the shadow of an international crisis offers McCain a golden opportunity. In the hour of peril, experience is likely to garner more votes than hope. Putin has triggered what McCain urgently needs: a sense of anxiety.
Furthermore, the article points out that
quote:
In September, the UN Security Council will vote on whether to extend the ISAF mandate for the stabilization of Afghanistan. [b][i]A Russian Njet would eliminate the legal basis of the operation,[/i][/b] and the German parliament, the Bundestag, could hardly extend its mission for 3,500 soldiers, let alone boost the number of troops to 4,500 as is currently planned. Russia could make it more difficult to supply the troops in the Hindukush by banning NATO military aircraft from flying over its territory.
Ditto for Canada in terms of a public debate - POSSIBLY IN THE MIDDLE OF A CANADIAN ELECTION! - on sending troops to a mission that no longer has a legal leg to stand on.
Serious steps against Russia and it's going to be game over for NATO. Literally. The whole organization would blow apart. [b]From an irresponsible ultra-left point of view, one can see the argument for Russia to fart in the face of the Western countries just to provoke such serious steps. Getting rid of NATO would help the left in this part of the world.[/b] It would put the issue of an independent Canadian foreign policy on the public agenda. And that would be a good thing.
Unfortunately, such farts in the face of the Western countries could lead to anything. And that's why it's not a good idea. [i]Russia is not the imperialist states of America, they don't view themselves in this way, and even in the current crisis they continue to look for some middle ground. Neocons and Russophobes, Putin-haters and KGB conspiracists, take note. [/i] The jig is up on your anti-Russian fatwa bullshit.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
This is just too important not to underline a dozen times.
quote:
In September, the UN Security Council will vote on whether to extend the ISAF mandate for the stabilization of Afghanistan. [b][i]A Russian Njet would eliminate the legal basis of the operation,[/i][/b] and the German parliament, the Bundestag, could hardly extend its mission for 3,500 soldiers, let alone boost the number of troops to 4,500 as is currently planned. Russia could make it more difficult to supply the troops in the Hindukush by banning NATO military aircraft from flying over its territory.
The German Parliament, the Canadian Parliament, La la la la .... an election in Canada .... a political party that opposed the NATO mission in Afghanistan might do VERY well if the mission was suddenly, well, [i]illegal[/i] ... If the Russians said "Njet" to NATO in Afghanistan, would Jack Layton's NDP be able to move to the left to exploit such a situation in the course of an election? Does the NDP have the stones?
PM Jack Layton? Why not?
It's all VERY interesting.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
The developments are coming fast and furious. "Buckle up!", boys and girls.
If the following report is correct, then the Russian case for claiming that the OSCE personnel knew about the Georgian bombardment and did nothing to save the Russian peacekeepers is weakened. However, the FACT of the Georgian bombardment is STRENGTHENED by this report. If you read Finnish, then please help fellow babblers and confirm the translation.
quote:
According to Terhi Hakala, head of the OSCE Mission to Georgia, OSCE
had three observors -- one Finnish, one Polish, and one Belorussian
-- in Tshinvali when the Georgian shelling started. The observors
spent their night hiding in the cellar of the OSCE mission HQ. Hakala
makes very clear that there is no way the OSCE observors would have
been left in Tshinvali as sitting targets had the OSCE mission had
any inkling of Saakahsvili's plans to pulverize the city.HERE we have a name and face instead of vague references to the OSCE
staff supposedly leaving ahead of the Georgian assault: the Finnish
OSCE observor stationed in Tshinvali, Heikki Lehtonen, gives his
account of the experience (in his native Finnish only, sorry ? ).On August 7, Lehtonen and his two colleagues from Poland and
Belorussia were calling it a day at the OSCE mission HQ on Pushkin
St., Tshinvali, enjoying a glass of wine before retiring. Just before
midnight, explosions started to rock the city. Lehtonen immediately
called Tbilisi to report the situation. Then it was time to take
cover in the cellar.The shelling was "hard and continuous". Intervals between the
explosions were no more than five minutes, max.During the night, a rocket hit the garden of the OSCE mission.
(Hakala later confirmed that part of the OSCE mission building in
Tshinvali took hits and was partly destroyed.) The house across the
street was on fire. (Begs the question, who thought the OSCE was a legitimate military target? Or did someone think the OSCE observors to be troublesome eyewitnesses and therefore better get rid of them?) In the wee hours, the observors heard military vehicles moving in.Friday afternoon, the observors received a text message from Hakala
telling them there was a ceasefire, starting at 3 p.m. and get out at the first possible opportunity.At 4 p.m Friday afternoon, the OSCE observors left their post in Tshinvali and evacuated to Tbilisi. There were still fighting and explosions in Tshinvali despite the ceasefire when the observors left the town behind, Lehtonen reports.
[url=http://www.osce.org/georgia/13202.html]Ambassador Terhi Hakala[/url]
"Ambassador Terhi Hakala, an expert on Southern Caucasus and Eastern Europe, took up her duties as the Head of the OSCE Mission to Georgia in October 2007. At the time of her appointment, she was serving as Finland's Roving Ambassador to Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan."
If you read Finnish, then here is the original ...
[url=http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/Suomalaistarkkailija+koki+sodan+alun...
Suomalaistarkkailija koki sodan alun Tshinvalissa[/url]
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Here's an attempt to debunk the Human Rights Watch claim that the Russians used cluster weapons.
quote:
I consider HRW’s “cluster bomb” charge to be HIGHLY questionable. Here
are my reasons…1. Human Rights Watch charges that Russia used cluster bombs on
Georgian CIVILIANS. Strange how no other Russian atrocity can be cited
except this one. The reason there were no other atrocities is that
Russia knew the Western press would tell lies. Therefore, if only for
political reasons, Russia was careful not to cause any more damage and
injuries than absolutely necessary. Russia knew that if Russia
committed even one atrocity, it would be front page news all over the
West. Moreover, the Georgian army was mostly in retreat. Why use
cluster bombs on them? Why use cluster bombs on civilians? Colonel-
General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of Russia’s General Staff,
said, “We never use cluster bombs. There's no need to.”2. HRW was originally founded as an anti-Soviet group, and is 100
percent funded by Jewish interests, who remain anti-Russian. That’s
why HRW defended Israel’s atrocities against Lebanon in 2006. The
Israelis used cluster bombs on Lebanese civilians in the last 72 hours
of the Israeli retreat, in a kind of “scorched earth” policy. This
did not play well in the world press. Therefore groups like HRW are
keen to blame others for using cluster bombs. HRW also claims that
Georgia only killed 44 Ossetians.3. HRW’s “evidence” is a photo of a bomb and crater. You can see this
photo at the HRW web site [url=http://www.hrw.org/#nolink]http://www.hrw.org/#nolink[/url] . The Russians
have asked repeatedly for independent confirmation of this. How do we
know this is really a cluster bomb? How did it get so neatly planted
beside the small crater? Why does a small crater exist anyway? Cluster
bombs explode in mid-air for maximum lethal effect. HRW claims the
bomb is a Russian RBK-250 model dropped by Russian aircraft on the
village of Ruisi. How did HRW become an expert in Russian ordnance?
Where were the village civilians when this alleged cluster bomb was
allegedly dropped on them? HRW also claims to have “testimony” of
Georgians, who are naturally inclined to lie about the Russian
forces.4. HRW’s web site also has a video of smoke rising from distant
buildings. No aircraft can be seen in the video, nor incandescent
streamers of cluster bombs. How does HRW know it was Russian ordnance
that exploded in the video, or that it was ordnance at all? It might
have been fuel tanks exploding, or Georgians blowing up a cache of
shells to prevent it from falling into Russian hands. Georgian doctors
claim to have seen injuries “consistent” with a cluster bomb attack.
Conventional shrapnel and flying glass produce the same injuries.5. With any cluster bomb, ten to thirty percent of its internal
bomblets do not detonate. Therefore HRW should be able to find
thousands of bomblets lying around Georgia, as there were in Lebanon.
Oddly, HRW can find no bomblets.5. There is no physical proof, no independent confirmation, and no
reason for Russia to use cluster bombs. We only have HRW’s wild
claims, plus a questionable photo, and some newspaper headlines. This
is not “proof.” The Financial Times ran a headline saying the Russians
bombed Gori, but the text of the article made no mention of this
alleged bombing, since it didn’t happen.6. HRW is doing exactly what the Western press does. HRW takes every
Georgian atrocity and says Russia did it. For example, Georgians fired
on fleeing Ossetians. Therefore HRW says Russia fired on fleeing
Georgian civilians. Mr. Saakashvili says Tskhinvali was flattened by
Russian “carpet bombing,” not by Georgia. Incredible!HRW's claims are HIGHLY questionable.
quote:
The Other Russia might have such a stance but they are downplaying it very much. They would suffer very serious political losses if they really pushed this line in Russia. I'm afraid their opposition on this issue is for western consumption only.
This is a very good point, of course I was only following their English language coverage. Kasparov hasn't even been so willing to put his name on their coverage of this as he usually is so thats a clear sign I guess; Limonov's name and party appear nowhere in the coverage (though they are a significant coalition partner). On the flip side you hear only Limonov and not Kasparov when it comes to condemning the Hague trial of Karadzic so I'm sure you are right, there is some careful positioning (very conscious of their audience(s)) here. I'll cut them a little slack for their English coverage; I still don't think Putin will though!
In the most recent Russian election, groups of young people followed Kasparov around, taunting him with noisy claims of foreign funding, and so on. There was even a Kasparov meeting disrupted by a flying penis if you please.
That wasn't good enough. Kasparov couldn't get a meeting in decent-sized hall ... as a result of which he didn't even get his name on the ballot. His election participation was over before it began.
I suppose he has some money and as long as the Wall Street Journal pays him to write fluff pieces for great gobs of money, then he should be OK. Left wing he ain't.
quote:
Many Western analysts have chosen to interpret the recent fighting in the Caucasus as the onset of a new Cold War, with a small pro-Western democracy bravely resisting a brutal reincarnation of Stalin's jack-booted Soviet Union. Others have viewed it a throwback to the age-old ethnic politics of southeastern Europe, with assorted minorities using contemporary border disputes to settle ancient scores.Neither of these explanations is accurate. To fully grasp the recent upheavals in the Caucasus, it is necessary to view the conflict as but a minor skirmish in a far more significant geopolitical struggle between Moscow and Washington over the energy riches of the Caspian Sea basin -- with former Russian President (now Prime Minister) Vladimir Putin emerging as the reigning Grand Master of geostrategic chess and the Bush team turning out to be middling amateurs, at best.
[url=http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174971/michael_klare_the_bush_administra... analysis and background by Michael T. Klare [/url]
The article starts out well but leaves me unsatisfied. The oil and gas analysis is useful, but the author doesn't make a strong enough case that both sides look at the conflict in the same way. "The great game" is a term that goes back to British and Russian conflict in the area and, while it's easy enough to just slot in the Americans to replace the virtually deceased British Empire, this game view of the regions' politics is one that the Russians have rejected for a very long time.
The Russians were ready, I think, for some sort of attack from Saakashvili, but being ready for an attack hardly translates into the laying of a trap. If anything, the Russians avoided a trap of staying in Georgia and the American Gambit failed in that regard.
Geostrategic views of politics (Brezhinski) or geopolitical views tend to trivialize political and social factors and the political economy, put too much emphasis on the technology of warfare, and are far too easily impressed with big explosions.
This, might be of interest ...
[url=http://pulitzercenter.typepad.com/untold_stories/2008/08/georgias-presid...
quote:
To Giorgi Khaindrava, one of the leading Georgian opposition figures, Saakashvili was an “idiot,” a chess player utterly incapable of thinking more than a single move ahead.
Being educated in the US, married to a Dutch academic, Saakashvili may share the same geopolitical prejudices of western ideologues. But he's still a patzer over any chess board. If he had seen a few more moves ahead, then he would have seen the position he finds himself in right now.
[img]http://nalchik2008.fide.com/mediafile/Image/eng/menu_bg.jpg[/img]
Saakashvili, the patzer King.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
quote:
In the most recent Russian election, groups of young people followed Kasparov around, taunting him with noisy claims of foreign funding, and so on. There was even a Kasparov meeting disrupted by a flying penis if you please.That wasn't good enough. Kasparov couldn't get a meeting in decent-sized hall ... as a result of which he didn't even get his name on the ballot. His election participation was over before it began.
I suppose he has some money and as long as the Wall Street Journal pays him to write fluff pieces for great gobs of money, then he should be OK. Left wing he ain't.
I hope you're not taring all the members of the Other Russia coalition with the same brush. You're right about Kasparov and the general success of the opposition in Russia (for which Putin deserves major credit); some members of the Other Russia are undoubtedly left wing however, though mostly they get very poor coverage in the west. Incidentally my screen name like yours, derives from a Russian author/politician; he happens to be one of the leaders of the Other Russia.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]
quote:
It's Me D: I hope you're not tarring all the members of the Other Russia coalition with the same brush.
I'm not. Politics makes strange bedfellows, as we all know.
Supplemental: a thread on The Other Russia, or on the left in Russia, with reference to TOR, would be useful. Go for it. I'd read it, and quietly too.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Who will replace Saakashvili? Here' one scenario.
quote:
“Saakashvili, the Russian argument runs, initiated military escalation over the past year because his political base has cracked and his domestic support is dwindling. The Georgian political opposition at home, and in exile abroad, agrees. They charge the president and his family, including the powerful Timur Alasaniya, Saakashvili’s uncle, of growing corruptly rich off the arms trade and of seizing the country’s resource, port, and trading concessions for themselves and their supporters. Alasaniya, brother to Saakashvili’s mother, holds the official position of Georgian representative to a United Nations Commission on Disarmament in New York (no relation to Irakly Alasaniya, Georgia’s ambassador to the United Nations).The leaders of the Georgian opposition nearly succeeded in toppling Saakashvili last autumn. The president was forced to impose military rule in Tbilisi, while his former defence minister, Irakly Okruashvili, publicly accused him of murder and corruption. [b]Okruashvili is currently in Paris, where he has been granted political asylum by the French government. In June, a French court rejected Saakashvili’s warrant for the arrest and extradition of his former friend and now bitterest critic. [/b]Okruashvili is uncompromised by early career links to Moscow, unlike a number of political party leaders in Tbilisi. Okruashvili is a likely candidate to replace Saakashvili, if and when Georgian public opinion turns against the president…”
... With the Georgian presidential alternative Okruashvili under their wing in Paris, what the French do next may bridge the gap which Saakashvili's artillery tore apart last Friday.
[url=http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH12Ag02.html]Asia Times - John Helmer[/url]
Novosti reports that according to a senior Russian military official, [b]Georgia is mobilizing commando units near its border with South Ossetia.[/b] Regnum reports that there is a [b]concentration of Georgian military equipment[/b] taking place at the border. And, finally, [b]a "specially organized" provocation[/b] has allegedly taken place against the Russian peacekeepers by the Georgian side.
These actions would seem to violate the Sarcozy-Medvedev 6-point plan, that included [b]the return of Georgian troops to their barracks.[/b] Let's hope that the Georgian regime doesn't make matters worse by more unhelpful actions like these.
By George Friedman
The Russian Resurgence
In short, the United States remained heavily committed to a region stretching from Iraq to Pakistan, with main force committed to Iraq and Afghanistan, and the possibility of commitments to Pakistan (and above all to Iran) on the table. U.S. ground forces were stretched to the limit, and U.S. airpower, naval and land-based forces had to stand by for the possibility of an air campaign in Iran — regardless of whether the U.S. planned an attack, since the credibility of a bluff depended on the availability of force.
The situation in this region actually was improving, but the United States had to remain committed there. It was therefore no accident that the Russians invaded Georgia on Aug. 8 following a Georgian attack on South Ossetia. Forgetting the details of who did what to whom, the United States had created a massive window of opportunity for the Russians: For the foreseeable future, the United States had no significant forces to spare to deploy elsewhere in the world, nor the ability to sustain them in extended combat. Moreover, the United States was relying on Russian cooperation both against Iran and potentially in Afghanistan, where Moscow’s influence with some factions remains substantial. The United States needed the Russians and couldn’t block the Russians. Therefore, the Russians inevitably chose this moment to strike.
On Sunday, Russian Prime Minister Dmitri Medvedev in effect ran up the Jolly Roger. Whatever the United States thought it was dealing with in Russia, Medvedev made the Russian position very clear. He stated Russian foreign policy in five succinct points, which we can think of as the Medvedev Doctrine (and which we see fit to quote here):
First, Russia recognizes the primacy of the fundamental principles of international law, which define the relations between civilized peoples. We will build our relations with other countries within the framework of these principles and this concept of international law.
Second, the world should be multipolar. A single-pole world is unacceptable. Domination is something we cannot allow. We cannot accept a world order in which one country makes all the decisions, even as serious and influential a country as the United States of America. Such a world is unstable and threatened by conflict.
Third, Russia does not want confrontation with any other country. Russia has no intention of isolating itself. We will develop friendly relations with Europe, the United States, and other countries, as much as is possible.
Fourth, protecting the lives and dignity of our citizens, wherever they may be, is an unquestionable priority for our country. Our foreign policy decisions will be based on this need. We will also protect the interests of our business community abroad. It should be clear to all that we will respond to any aggressive acts committed against us.
Finally, fifth, as is the case of other countries, there are regions in which Russia has privileged interests. These regions are home to countries with which we share special historical relations and are bound together as friends and good neighbors. We will pay particular attention to our work in these regions and build friendly ties with these countries, our close neighbors.
Medvedev concluded, “These are the principles I will follow in carrying out our foreign policy. As for the future, it depends not only on us but also on our friends and partners in the international community. They have a choice.”
The second point in this doctrine states that Russia does not accept the primacy of the United States in the international system. According to the third point, while Russia wants good relations with the United States and Europe, this depends on their behavior toward Russia and not just on Russia’s behavior. The fourth point states that Russia will protect the interests of Russians wherever they are — even if they live in the Baltic states or in Georgia, for example. This provides a doctrinal basis for intervention in such countries if Russia finds it necessary.
The fifth point is the critical one: “As is the case of other countries, there are regions in which Russia has privileged interests.” In other words, the Russians have special interests in the former Soviet Union and in friendly relations with these states. Intrusions by others into these regions that undermine pro-Russian regimes will be regarded as a threat to Russia’s “special interests.”
Edit for copy right
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]
This essay seems to make light of the United States' and its Georgian proxy's own agency in the conflict.
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It was therefore no accident that the Russians invaded Georgia on Aug. 8 following a Georgian attack on South Ossetia. Forgetting the details of who did what to whom, the United States had created a massive window of opportunity for the Russians...
I don't think it is "details" that Georgia fired the first shots and that the U.S. has been surrounding Russia with major military bases.
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Originally posted by Webgear:
[b]By George FriedmanThe United States has been fighting a war in the Islamic world since 2001.[/b]
I think the Nazis had a similar excuse for blitzkrieg on Europe and marching into Russia uninvited.
Nothing about the CIA's proxy war with Afghanistan's PDPA government. Nothing about both Democrats and Republicans aiding and abetting al Qa'eda right up to 2001. They simply began fighting a war with Islamic hordes beginning in 2001. Nice and neat.
Webgear: you may have paid for Friedman's article but quoting it in its entirety probably violates copyright. That could make babble liable and not just you. Now that I've copied it (heheh) maybe you could consider chopping some pieces out of it so that your quotes could be considered as a review.
OK, now that I've got that out of the way ... I read George Friedman and I think about pulling out my [i]Axis and Allies[/i] board. Get a good game of D&D going. Maybe a few rounds of Railbuilder. This guy has read Brezhinski's books too many times, or something, and geostrategic/geopolitical concepts are the only ones that seem to stick in his analysis.
To reiterate what I've already mentioned on this thread, such views invariably miss out on political and economic analysis in a big way. When an author writes,
"(f)orgetting the details of who did what to whom ...", he's demonstrating that the sequence of events leading to war and the political causes of war don't really matter to him. War over territory is a kind of "given". Let me just note that such views lead one to the kind of utter miscalculations that led the US to arm Georgia to the teeth to begin with, and also led Georgia on its misguided and failed attack on South Ossetia. Why I, as a reader, should enter into this world of geopolitical and geostrategic analysis, presumably as a way to understand what's taken place in the Caucuses these past few weeks, when it is such an approach that led to the conflict to begin with is beyond me. War is inevitable because ... war is inevitable. The very idea that efforts should be made to prevent war, that such efforts ought to be the focus of the actions of states and governments, this is just "outside the box" for one George Friedman.
In science we look at causes and their effects. We try to isolate particular causes or particular effects to make sense of things. And that's before we try to understand things in motion, in the complicated trajectory of cause leading to effect leading to new cause, and so on. Marxists call this sort of complication "dialectics". Far be it for me to say much more than that; I'm no expert but at least I can see that. I'm not sure that Friedman actually buys into "cause" and "effect", much less makes use of philosophical and scientific tools to enrich his analysis.
Bernard L. Montgomery, in his speech in the House of Lords on 30 May 1962, inspired an amusing line in a movie several decades later.
"Rule 1, on page 1 of the book of war is: 'Do not march on Moscow.' ... Rule 2 is: 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China.'"
Vizzini, a character from [i]The Princess Bride[/i], said the following:
[img]http://blog.lib.umn.edu/snackeru/greet/images/vizzini.jpg[/img]
"Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
[i]Never get involved in a land war in Asia.[/i] When will the USA figure this simple truism out? Or will the American Empire fall over dead, like Vizzini, once the realization sinks in?
I did not pay do not the article, it is a free bi-weekly email.
I just linked this new article because other people liked his last article however I know you do not like him.
I am indifferent to his work, I just like reading all points of view especially geostrategic/geopolitical concepts.
Have you seen the new Axis and Allies games? They look very interesting.
[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]
quote:
Webgear:I did not pay do not the article, it is a free bi-weekly email.
OK. He's probably not going to get annoyed then. But you should still refrain from quoting articles in their entirety. It's a bad habit to get into. It could cause babble some problems down the road.
And besides ... it may just show that you haven't read the article in question, or understood its contents, if you haven't got around to drawing attention to the ideas that interest you the most.
quote:
Have you seen the new Axis and Allies games? They look very interesting.
I have a very rare copy of the Windows 98 version. If I ever master that version, they I suppose I might get around to more recent versions.
-----------------------------------
Maybe this simple game theory or geostrategy in the free version of Friedman's e-newsletter is just the window dressing of something richer, or more subversive, that clients have to pay for.
I will say this for Friedman: he seems to be fairly consistent. He's mostly not an eclectic sort of thinker, who tend to drive me nuts, that's all over the place and hopes to hit some truth - by accident if necessary.
Actually, there are a number of teasers on the Stratfor web page, and if you look deeper you see that ...
quote:
Free Preview of Members-Only ContentTo view the requested intelligence, you must be a Stratfor.com member.
Canada: New Elections Expected Oct. 14
September 2, 2008 1112 GMT
Canadian Prime Minister plans to dissolve parliament and call early elections set for Oct. 14,... [more]
So it kinda looks like posting an article from Stratfor is free advertising to me.
Axis and Allies needs to be played on a board, the computer version is not the same.
I get tons of free articles from many sources.
I am not good at game theory or geo-strategy, that is why I try an read everything I can.
I should know better about the copy right laws, my mistake.
The Princess Bride is a good movie, my daughters like it a lot.
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Webgear: Axis and Allies needs to be played on a board, the computer version is not the same.
The WIN 98 version is very, very close to playing on the board. And it's great if you play with opponents who are in the habit of cheating.
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The Princess Bride is a good movie, my daughters like it a lot.
When people of many different ages can enjoy a film, that's usually a sign of a very good movie. This particular film motivated me to investigate actor Wallace Shawn some more.
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I should know better about the copy right laws, my mistake.
I have to admit that Friedman's article is sort of entertaining. Maybe that's his attraction. But he really is an easy target for the reasons I've outlined. I would rather read [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] and the Russian equivalent [url=http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/]Russia in Global Affairs[/url] to get deeper analysis. Go for the best you can find.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has said some interesting things in a recent interview. Here are some quotes (please note, friend Webgear, that I am quoting bits and pieces!):
quote:
EURONEWS: Still, some say there may be sanctions, like expulsion from the G8, or a ban on Russia joining the WTO. In case these measures are taken, what will be Russia’s response? [b]Ordinary Europeans are concerned that a hot summer in the Caucasus may be followed by a cold winter in Europe.[/b]
Medvedev says the usual things about the WTO and the G-8. He mentions that if progress is not made, and soon, on the WTO, then Russian will have no option but to "pull out of some treaties that imposed certain restrictions on us with regard to the WTO." Then he goes on:
quote:
As for other levers of influence, I don’t think we should expect a cold winter or anything of that nature. Nobody wants to see that.EURONEWS: What I meant was hydrocarbon supplies…
Dmitry Medvedev: Yes, I know what you were hinting at. Of course, we are going to fully honour all the obligations Russia took upon itself as the main supplier of hydrocarbons to Europe.
So, turning the tap off is out of the question. Finns, Bulgarians and others who rely for 90% of their natural gas on Russia will be pleased to hear that.
quote:
I have already said that the August events demonstrated how imperfect the current security architecture is. We need to re-create it according to the reality we face today. Some time ago, I listed five principles I will follow in Russia’s foreign policy. I’d like to repeat them now. First, Russia will fully abide by the standards of international law that define relations between civilised nations. Second, Russia believes the world should be multipolar. It thinks a unipolar world dominated by one state, no matter which one it is, is unacceptable. Third, we are naturally interested in developing normal, friendly relations with all nations in Europe, in Asia, with the United States, with Africa - with all nations on the planet. These relations will be as deep as our partners want them to be. Fourth, I believe that protecting our citizens’ lives and dignity, no matter where they are, is an absolute priority. This is another priority for Russia’s foreign policy. Finally, the fifth principle is that Russia, like any other state, has certain regions it will pay particular attention to. These are regions of our privileged interests. We are going to have special, cordial, long-term relations with the states in these regions.
In an interview with Italian channel RAI, Medvedev said the following:
quote:
RAI: To solve the crisis in Georgia, Italy suggested an intermediary conference in Rome. In one of the interviews for our television company, President Saakashvili agreed to participate. Will you come to Rome to discuss the peace settlement?Dmitry Medvedev: Of course we’re open to discussing anything at conferences and other international forums. But [b]we would like the international community to remember who started the aggression, who’s responsible for killing people, and what price has been paid.[/b] As for the Georgian authorities: we think that the current regime has discredited itself.[b] And to us, President Saakashvili no longer exists. He’s a political corpse.[/b] But we’re open to discuss any issues including that of the post-conflict settlement in the region.
That's not an obituary but I would say if the Russian President can talk that confidently about Saakashvili, the political corpse, then he must be convinced that it is only a matter of time before the latter is replaced by someone else.
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he must be convinced that it is only a matter of time before the latter is replaced by someone else.
The Peace Agreement mentions the time frame of "six months". It doesn't take a long time to be declared a "failed state". The weather will likely be cold in Europe about that time.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
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The aggressive U.S. encirclement of Russia threatens a new era of Cold War, fueled by American media hogwash about "poor defenseless Georgians" who "suffered a dastardly, unjustified, sneak attack from the evil Russian bear." It does not phase the U.S. propaganda media that the facts reflect the opposite: "The recent conflict between Russia and Georgia was instigated by the United States and its partner in crime, Israel." Washington's foreign policy fictions are bipartisan. "At his acceptance speech for the Vice Presidential nomination Senator Joseph Biden parroted Bush administration lies almost word for word."
[url=http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&... Kimberley[/url]
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Stanley10: The Peace Agreement mentions the time frame of "six months". It doesn't take a long time to be declared a "failed state". The weather will likely be cold in Europe about that time.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Everyone knows that most bears hibernate in the winter. But, if that isn't enough ...
"MOSCOW. Sept 3 (Interfax) - Russia will firmly abide by its agreements on energy supplies, said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. "We have partners with whom we have long-term energy contracts. And these contracts will be complied with," he told a press conference in Moscow after talks with his Belgian counterpart Karel de Gucht."
Since they were so close to Tbilisi only last week or so, wouldn't it have been easier, if that was their intention, to just pick up Saakashvili while they were there?
The Georgians are going to throw out Saakashvili themselves. And I suspect he will get a nice cushy job in the USA, with not much to do, but, with plenty of spare time to spend the rest of his days (not in custody for war crimes, that is) on shrill denunciations of the big, bad bear.
[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
The German weekly [i]Spiegel[/i] made a political decision to censor photographs by an 18-year veteran of the newspaper, Pavel Kassin. The reason? The photos were of the devastation wrought by Georgia in razing Tskhinvali, South Ossetia, to the ground.
quote:
Kassin was so angry he gave an interview to the Russian daily Izvestia.“Could it be that the most liberal, democratic and independent magazine has gone down the road of ideological one-sided propaganda?” he said. “In my view this is one of the rare cases when Spiegel has taken a pro-American stance.”
In the last three issues Spiegel has given extensive coverage to the war in the Caucasus, but only a few articles have dealt with the situation in South Ossetia.
The rest have shown Georgia as a ‘martyr’ suffering from ‘Russian aggression’. Most images featured ruined houses in the Georgian town of Gori and crushed military ships in the port of Poti.
Meanwhile, the South Ossetian capital Tskhinval, which suffered 12 hours of bombing by the Georgian military, is shown like a city living an ordinary life.
[url=http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-67759]German weekly ignores shocking Tskhinvali images. [/url]
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29607]German weekly in propaganda row.[/url]
[img]http://www.russiatoday.com/media/news/4/48b68a10237e2.jpg[/img]
Nope. Never saw this one. I guess it never happened.
[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
In a recent development, the pro-US, pro-NATO Ukrainian President has been handed his own ass.
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Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko's party officially pulled out of the ruling pro-Western coalition on Wednesday amid a government dispute over presidential powers and the Georgia-Russia conflict.The Our Ukraine party's decision was reached on Tuesday night after lawmakers voted to reduce the president's powers, and was officially announced to parliament on Wednesday morning.
Yushchenko earlier accused Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko of "treason and political corruption" over her failure to back the president in his support for Georgia and condemnation of Russia in the recent conflict over South Ossetia. The premier is widely expected to run against Yushchenko at the next presidential election.
New laws have stripped the President of a veto over the selection of Prime Minister and have made the process [i]for impeaching the President easier.[/i]
I guess that membership of NATO is going to be delayed a bit, eh?
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Since they were so close to Tbilisi only last week or so, wouldn't it have been easier, if that was their intention, to just pick up Saakashvili while they were there?
In the first few posts in the very first thread on this subject on Aug 8th Papal Bull and I discussed whether the Russians should move into Tbilisi and depose Saakashvili or whether they could push the Georgian people to depose Saakashvili themselves without taking Tbilisi. I felt the Russians should depose him themselves, and wasn't convinced the Georgians would throw him out on their own; Papal Bull seemed more optimistic that the Georgian people could deal with Saakashvili. The Russians obviously agreed with Papal Bull, let us hope that they are right and Saakashvili is not able to cling to power as he is desperately trying to do.
Thanks for the update on the Ukraine Beltov, I am not convinced Tymoshenko would be a great leader for Ukraine or that she'd be willing to cooperate with the Russians in her people's best interest but I'd be glad to see an end to the US-backed Yushchenko and his policies of tearing Ukraine apart in support of the US agenda. I suppose this counts as good news.
quote:
Supplemental: a thread on The Other Russia, or on the left in Russia, with reference to TOR, would be useful. Go for it. I'd read it, and quietly too.
I'd like to, I guess I will have to look into it further; I've been of the opinion that on one hand there wasn't enough English language material to update the thread super-frequently (like these Georgia threads for example!) and that there might not be much of an interest from the babble community (as with the threads I have started so far about Sri Lanka). Anyway I appreciate the suggestion and the support.
Considering how many lefties show an interest in Russian politics from a century ago, one would think there would also be an interest in current left politics in Russia. Heh.
ETA: even during the course of the conflict, there were, already, voices in the media (former Georgian President Shevardnadze, for example) that were warning of the danger of too much talk, much less action, against Saakashvili on the part of the Russians. There was a real danger that the Russians could have made the Georgian President more popular and wind up keeping him in power.
Georgians are like Americans in one way, at least, I've read. They stick to their leader in times of crisis. I think it was wise of the Russians to back off, leave Saakashvili alone, and let Georgians in their own way deal with him. The main thing has been accomplished; Saakashvili can't hurt anyone in South Ossetia or Abkhazia any more. The rest is just politics ... which is always, or should be, secondary to human lives.
[ 03 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
As far as I'm concerned, this is typical of the Russians. They've been under siege for a very long time - long before 25 international armies and mercenaries sealed off Russia in 1919. And with a raging cold war coming to an end and Gladio aggression even on Russian soil in the late 1980's, commentators said the Russians showed remarkable restraint for a nuclear superpower at the time. And now western news media accuse the Russians of trying to start another cold war. Someone famous said that shooting wars are won or lost before they are started. Victory is only confirmed with an actual battle. And I now believe that the Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, Haitians, Afghans, Africans, Cambodians. Philippinos, and Central Americans, and Russians from 1941-45, all lost the dirty wars well ahead of time. Hot and cold wars are especially profitable as well as immoral, and this is the ultimate problem for mankind still.
From the article in Der Speigel
quote:
In September, the UN Security Council will vote on whether to extend the ISAF mandate for the stabilization of Afghanistan. [b]A Russian Njet would eliminate the legal basis of the operation, and the German parliament, the Bundestag, could hardly extend its mission for 3,500 soldiers, let alone boost the number of troops to 4,500 as is currently planned.[/b] (Canada is spelled with a "C" - N.Beltov) Russia could make it more difficult to supply the troops in the Hindukush by banning NATO military aircraft from flying over its territory.
And now we have this:
quote:
Speaking at a news conference at NATO headquarters in Brussels late on Wednesday, Dmitri Rogozin said, [b]“Future cooperation [in Afghanistan] will depend on the alliance’s position in the Caucasus crisis. We are not satisfied either with NATO’s words or actions”,[/b] he said. Russia has already suspended all peacekeeping operations with NATO for at least six months and has frozen its participation in NATO’s Partnership for Peace program. Mr Rogozin said that Moscow so far had decided to continue supporting NATO operations in Afghanistan only because Russia was concerned by the worsening military and political situation in the Central Asian country accompanied by a continuing rise in extremism and illegal drug production. Earlier, Moscow agreed to allow non-lethal goods for NATO troops in Afghanistan to pass through Russian territory.
The article goes on to point out how the increasing heroin production is doing harm to Russia, increasing drug addiction in that country, and so on ...
quote:
Since the Taliban regime was overthrown in the 2001 US-led campaign, Afghanistan has become the world’s leading producer of heroin. Afghanistan’s opium production increased from 6,100 tons in 2006 to 8,200 tons in 2007, according to the UN. The narcotics trade has become an acute problem for Russia and the Central Asian republics due to a continual flow of illegal drugs from Afghanistan. “We do not see any success [in NATO operations], but, only a degradation of the situation in Afghanistan, and that is why Russia decided to maintain its cooperation with NATO in this area”, he said. NATO’s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) has about 53,000 troops operating in the country under a UN mandate to help give security support to the Afghan government and stop the flow of drugs from the country. However, despite international efforts, the Taliban, ousted from power after a US-led military operation in 2001, have stepped up their activities in recent months. The radical Islamic movement vowed to increase suicide and other attacks in order to undermine the authority of the current Afghan administration.
[url=http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080904/116542151.html]Russia may suspend support for NATO operations in Afghanistan[/url]
All of this may have a profound effect on the public debate in other NATO countries - especially those with troops that are fighting and being killed in Afghanistan. And a country in the middle, say, of an election, ...
[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
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