Jeremy Corbyn 3

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-called-snap-el...

Nicky, in the other thread, wrote:

Quote:

Ken, you insult me by calling me a "right-winger".  You do not know me. I have fought for progressive causes since I was a teenager. I have put in countless hours campaigning for left-wing causes and candidates, and more dollars than I care to count. My professional life is in support of civil liberties and I have fought more hard battles in this field than you can imagine.

You're correct in saying that Ken doesn't know you. The truth is, for the most part, we don't really know other from these forums. The only thing we can judge each other by is our comments on specific topics and the person's overall posting history. When you continually insult people who disagree with you and have refused to address the specific questions people have asked, their assessments of you are not going to be favourable.

Yes I know. 99% of Labour's current problems are because of the evil Blairites. ( remind me , how long has Blair been out of power) 

But is there validity whatsoever to what is set out in this article, particularly the quoted views of wavering Labour voters?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/05/jeremy-corbyn-blam...

i keep reading bleats here that no other potential Labour leader could do better than Corbyn. I am unaware of polling that asks "how wd you vote if Labour were led by x instead of Corbyn."

i am quite confident that almost no other potential leader - Starmer, Cooper, Lewis, Khan, Bennn or anyone else could possibly do worse than drag Labour down to its lowest vote in a century as Corbyn is doing.

if the views expressed by voters in this article are remotely true then hoards of people will gladly embrace Labour once it rids itself of its albatross current leader.

Rev Pesky wrote:

From nicky:

Yes I know. 99% of Labour's current problems are because of the evil Blairites. ( remind me , how long has Blair been out of power) 

​Remember Joseph Stalin? How long has he been out of power? Do people still remember him?

​The amount of time 'out of power' is not as important as people's memories of the 'time in power'.

Blair lost in 2007 so a decade ago. The BC NDP lost in 2001 and they have been trying to rebuild every since Glen Clark's rein ended in 1999. The machinations by the internal NDP machine at the time to get a liberal named Dosanjh elected leader is our equivalent to the Labour party insiders who want to control the party as a fiefdom.

nicky wrote:

Yes I know. 99% of Labour's current problems are because of the evil Blairites. ( remind me , how long has Blair been out of power) 

But is there validity whatsoever to what is set out in this article, particularly the quoted views of wavering Labour voters?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/05/jeremy-corbyn-blam...

i keep reading bleats here that no other potential Labour leader could do better than Corbyn. I am unaware of polling that asks "how wd you vote if Labour were led by x instead of Corbyn."

i am quite confident that almost no other potential leader - Starmer, Cooper, Lewis, Khan, Bennn or anyone else could possibly do worse than drag Labour down to its lowest vote in a century as Corbyn is doing.

if the views expressed by voters in this article are remotely true then hoards of people will gladly embrace Labour once it rids itself of its albatross current leader.

I didn't say ALL the problems were personally due to Blair.   But can you seriously deny that his insistence on keeping the grassroots of the party totally out in the cold on any significant decisions in the party has had a significant effect?

​Can you also dismiss the fact that Labour did badly in the  last two elections with two leaders who ran the party exactly like he did and on policy ideas almost identical to his?

Other than possibly Trident(which Corbyn actually COULDN'T get rid of if elected, given that keeping Trident is stated party policy)what other things does he support that you find loathesome as policy?

​Do you think it does harm that Corbyn wants the grassroots activists of the party, on whom ANY chance for victory depends, to have at least SOME say in the policies and governance of the party they support?

​I've asked why you defend the unwillingness of the MPs(the only remaining antisocialists in the entire party at this point) to try and engage with what the grassroots are saying, and you've never offered any real response to that.  It matters, because the arrogance of the PLP played a major role in Corbyn winning the leadership.

​A party in which not only Corbyn but the ideas his supporters stand for were erased is a party that would go on standing for nothing, as it has since 1997.  That might have been a pragmatic, short-term approach for the Nineties(never mind that there's strong evidence Labour would have retured to power without becoming viciously anti-Left), are you really saying that Blairism-Brownism should never ever have ended?

​No party in UK history ever changed leaders during a general election.  There's no way to do so this time and unite the party behind whoever an interim leader would be, because the PLP(and let's face it, an interim leader could only be chosen using a PLP-only ballot) wouldn't allow any interim leader who supported any views anywhere close to those of Corbyn or his supporters.  A centrist leader would simply lead the party to obliteration now, since everyone who cared about the workers and the poor would find the election officially meaningless if fought on centrist policies.

Quote:

Remember Joseph Stalin? How long has he been out of power? Do people still remember him?

And do people sometimes call other people "Stalinists"?

Even Freidland admits that the "big shift" is the collapse of UKIP to the Tories, and that Brexit has "upended everything."  Thereby eviscerating his own argument that it's Corbyn's fault.

Many of whom now devoutly wish they had never heard of him.

nicky wrote:

The Guardian a Conservative paper Ken?

when did they endorse the Cons?

Perhaps you must define "conservative" as "anyone sensible enough to see that Corbyn is a disaster for the Labour Party and the best friend the "Conservative Party ever had."

It can't be anything but Conservative to devote most of your paper's space to attacking the twice-elected leader of the Labour Party.  It certainly can't ever serve any reconizably left purpose to keep doing that once a general election campaign is underway and it's too late for a leadership change to make any difference.  

​And it can't be anything but Conservative to keep arguing that Labour's policies must be as right-wing as possible, whoever leads it.  You'd have to concede the point on that one, I think.

Holding Labour's ground in seats, especially given the fact that, with no justification, his party's MPs treat him with complete disrespect, in a way no previous party leader in British history has ever been treated.

He'd have resigned before the election if the PLP had abandoned the 15% rule for the leadership ballot and agreed to restoring internal democracy.  Can you at least admit they should have met him halfway like that?  That it was never legitimate for them to expect him to just leave with NO guarantees that his supporters and their ideas(almost all of which are popular)would not be erased?

From nicky:

Many of whom now devoutly wish they had never heard of him.

​Labour members voted for him twice. If there had been 'buyers remorse', I doubt he would have won twice in a row. What is more likely is the PLP is completely out of touch with the membership.

Now the PLP is trying to force Corbyn out, and restricting who the members may choose after he leaves. Whatever the short term prospects for Labour, the long-term prospects, given a victory by the PLP over the membership, are even worse.

The PLP is going to have to decide whether they stand with the membership, or against it. So far they've been against it, but that situation cannot continue forever.

Corbyn had tthe chance to prove he was an electoral asset in the local elections last week. How did that work out?

Or Copeland for that matter?

Quote:

None of that was too much to ask.

Does it amount to asking for a special exception?  If so, maybe it is too much, by the rules of the game.

If Labour were led by some right-wingy Neanderthal, who would be saying that as a condition of him stepping aside, the Party should reassure him that some other right-wingy fellow would necessarily be on the ballot?  What if the only people on the ballot were those who satisfied Labour's own chosen rules for who gets to be on the ballot?

(self-delete.  dupe post).

I haven't said every Blair-associated Labourite is personally evil or wicked(only the ones who STILL defend the Iraq War and who want to bomb Syria).  Some were very good, such as the late Mo Mowlam, who built on the work started by Jeremy and others in creating dialog, power-sharing and peace in Northern Ireland, or Robin Cook, who resigned from the cabinet over the futility of Blair's wars.

The undeniable truth, though, is that Blairism will never be popular again.

Labour ran on Blairite platforms in 2010 and 2015.  Each time, it took 30%.  Given that that proves Blair's policies can never get Labour government elected again, why even pretend that those policies could possibly be worth going back to?

Or that Labour should have done what the PLP wanted to do after 2015 and started voting for ALL Tory benefit cuts?

Do you have any idea how much lower Labour's poll ratings would be if the party had actually DONE that?

They'd probably be in fourth-place, behind the LibDems AND the Greens(who themselves would be in second).

It's too late to change leaders and there's no possible replacement for Corbyn who could possibly win the unified support of both the PLP AND the huge grassroots base of the party.  If there was a person who could have done that, that person would have won the leadership in 2015 OR 2016.

Just admit that its time to unify behind the leader Labour has now.  There is no alternative.  The PLP won't allow anyone good like Clive Lewis to get the job. 

Josh, the only hope many Labour MPs have is distancing themselves as far as possible from Corbyn who is an anvil around their electoral necks. He is monumentally unpopular, even reviled. Donald Trump is more poular in Britain than Corbyn.

So, no, Idon't think that the party should rally around Corbyn. If it does so even more of its MPs will lose. 

The best chance Labour has is to maximize its number of MPs by reassuring voters : we do not support this clown, he is not going to bee PM, send us back to parliament so we can bring Labour back to sanity and become competitors for power again  under a new leader.

You mean , why don't I join the Lib Dems?

For one thing I am a Canadian so I don't think I'm eligible.

If I were a Brit I would join Labour in order to help save it from the Corbynites who want to turn it into a purified and irrelevant little sect.

If the Corbynites prevail I would expect amass exodus from Labour to form a new party. I would likely follow, leaving Corbyn to act out the last scene of this movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDlra8SsuXc

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:

Besides anyone with the appalling political instincts to back Corbyn for the leadership in the first place has a serious strike against him.

This from someone whose political instincts were to insist that Mulcair was the best leader the NDP ever had even long after the actual election results proved otherwise?

All in the service of neo-liberalism.

I know some of you think that Tony Blair was the devil and indistinguishable from the Conservatives

As I have said I seriously disagreed with his foreign policy and his criminal justice policies. But his government did institute nmany measures that improved the lives of ordinary Labour voters.

If I had to choose a Labour government that could follow his example in these area I would much prefer it to an unelectable impotent Labour party wallowing in incoherent ideological nostroms.

Here is a list of some of Blair's accomplishments, few of which any Conservative govenment would implement:

Labour’s top 50 achievements since being elected in 1997 –

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

nicky wrote:

I know some of you think that Tony Blair was the devil and indistinguishable from the Conservatives

As I have said I seriously disagreed with his foreign policy and his criminal justice policies. But his government did institute nmany measures that improved the lives of ordinary Labour voters.

If I had to choose a Labour government that could follow his example in these area I would much prefer it to an unelectable impotent Labour party wallowing in incoherent ideological nostroms.

Here is a list of some of Blair's accomplishments, few of which any Conservative govenment would implement:

Labour’s top 50 achievements since being elected in 1997 –

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

 

Blair had some achievements.  The main points of disagreement you and I would have on those acheivements are whether the ONLY possible way Blair could have had the chance to make them was to use the tactics he used within his own party and to commit the party to the bad policies he committed it to(specifically, moving to the RIGHT of the Tories on crime, foreign policy, and the use of force, declaring war against almost all remaining socialists within the party, abolishing internal party democracy, sucking up to Murdoch and the billionaires)in order to have the chance to achieve them.  Was it really necessary for Labour to have a leader who seemed to despise most of the people in his own party? 

Was it really necessary, once elected, for Blair to keep going scorched-earth against the Labour Left? 

And is the only possible way for Labour to return to power to revert to the worst of Blair's leadership approach and never deviate from it again for the rest of eternity?

​Should we assume that Labour only won in 1997 because of what Blair did to the party?
​And should we assume today that a leader in the Blair mold would have any further achievements in power, given that virtually ALL such figures within the PLP today are sharply to the right on budget policy and in their views on the welfare state?

​Finally, how do you explain that Labour lost badly in the last two elections with nearly the most Blairite leaders possible?  The views of Ed Miliband are almost identical to the views of his brother David, who narrowly lost to Ed in the 2011 leadership race, and whose supporters then spent the next four years slandering Ed with the claim that he had "stabbed his brother in the back" by even running.

josh wrote:

Have no idea when that list is from since the link won't come up for me.  But one of the first thing Blair did was place control of monetary policy in the Bank of England.  Thereby eliminating democratic control over monetary policy.  Something not even Thatcher thought of doing.

And not something that won him ANY significant number of votes.

Why wouldn't he be able to hang on till the party conference?

It's not "hard left" just to believe that Labour's policy should be to guarantee no further benefit cuts, want a pro-peace foreign policy and want the unions to be powerful enough to defend working people again(they've all been powerless since Thatcher's anti-worker laws were passed and then kept in place by New Labour).

We can only hope.

If Labour loses on June 8th, there's good reason to think the results of all further UK elections won't ever mean much of anything again.  It will simply be a competition over which group of right-wing elitists get to administer perpetual austerity and perpetual war.